Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

[JohnnyL]

http://bookofmormonwars.blogspot.com/20 ... tives.html

http://bookofmormonwars.blogspot.com/20 ... morah.html

http://www.lettervii.com/

[larsenb]

These are my thoughts:

What encompasses more of what Joseph said? It seems to me that one can pick and choose one or two words out of scripture to support any belief, but only when one takes in the entire amount of evidence, does the picture become clear.

It reminds me of this poem about the blind men and the elephant posted on another thread:
viewtopic.php?t=32065#p451717 . . . . . . .

I would be cautious not to be over zealous in promoting a narrow view when we see that the early bretheren (Joseph Smith being the best example) were willing to embrace more truth and thus widening their perspective.

Very interesting pictograph. The only thing missing seems to be the large and spacious building.

[larsenb]

http://bookofmormonwars.blogspot.com/20 ... tives.html

http://bookofmormonwars.blogspot.com/20 ... morah.html

http://www.lettervii.com/

This geographical depiction of the lands of the Lamanites and the Nephites depicted in your first link is astonishing in how it does NOT fit the geographical constraints in terms of named locations and features, their spatial relationships and the distances and time-traveled between them, as depicted in the Book of Mormon text.

HLM1.JPG (39.51 KiB) Viewed 1144 times

If you really want to get a handle on why this is so, I highly recommend you get Ric Hauck's book, Deciphering the Geography of the Book of Mormon, and discover first-hand what someone has done who has made a thorough study of these relationships using the actual text.

Until those who push the model shown above, or believe in it, actually do something like this, they have nothing to stand on. Sorry, folks. That's just the way it is.

[samizdat]

I would advise everyone to see the new BOM maps that BYU has put out. They are internal maps and are not meant to pigeonhole one specific region over another.

That said, it becomes extremely clear that Andean South America and Mesoamerica (though tilted at a 45 degree angle) match pretty well to the descriptions of the internal map and the heartland does not.

http://bom.byu.edu/

[ripliancum]

If you compare native American culture to the Book of Mormon you see all kinds of ties. In central and south America you do not see any ties that our outside the realm of coincidences. There is just no comparison.

Kishkumen

An Ojibwa Indian Chief named Keeshkemun, who succeeded his father to be chief, is mentioned in Warren’s book, Ojibwa History. Keeshkemun sounds strikingly similar to Kishkumen the Gadianton leader and one of the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon. In fact if you google Keeshkemun, Kishkumen will come up. Besides Isrealis Ojibwa Indians have the highest concentration of haplogroup X DNA.

Onidah

The Book of Mormon in Alma 47:5 states that disaffected Lamanites gathered at a hill called Onidah
There is Native American Tribe in New York called Onieda phonetically exactly the same as Onidah

Native American Hebrew like temples
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... mples.html

Native American jewish Hamsa symbol
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ymbol.html

Native American Egyptian Hieroglyphs
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... glyph.html

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... rican.html

Onondaga




In May and June 1834 Joseph Smith led a Mormon group (a paramilitary expedition known as Zion’s Camp) on a march from Kirtland, Ohio to Jackson County, Missouri. On June 3, while passing through west-central Illinois near Griggsville, some bones were unearthed from a mound. These bones were identified by Smith. He had vision as to who the bones belonged to.

“At about one foot deep we discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire; and between two of his ribs we found an Indian arrow, which had evidently been the cause of his death. Subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains.”

The Prophet Onandagus is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, but has obvious ties to the Onondaga Tribe whose traditional lands are in the state of New York.

The Saying Bury the Hatchet

The Book of Mormon tells the history of the Anti-Nephi’s, a Lamanite people who no longer wanted to fight or kill other people. They made this covenant to God to longer fight by burying their weapons in the ground, never to use them again even in the case of self-defense for themselves or for their family.

The saying bury the hatchet comes from the Algonquin Indians of the Great Lakes area who also made peace by burying their weapons of war. As mentioned before, I think the Hopewell Indians are the best candidate to be the Nephites for numerous reasons - this is one of them.

The first mention of the practice in English is to an actual hatchet-burying ceremony.

Years before he gained notoriety for presiding over the Salem witch trials, Samuel Sewall wrote in 1680, “I write to you in one [letter] of the Mischief the Mohawks did; which occasioned Major Pynchon’s going to Albany, where meeting with the Sachem the[y] came to an agreement and buried two Axes in the Ground; one for English another for themselves; which ceremony to them is more significant & binding than all Articles of Peace[,] the hatchet being a principal weapon with them.”
(South Carolina and the Cherokee Nation 1785)

Treaty of Hopewell 1785, Keowee, South Carolina: signed by Col. Benjamin Hawkins, Gen. Andrew Pickens and Headman McIntosh, establishing the boundary of the Cherokee Nation. Use of the phrase ‘Bury the Hatchet: “ARTICLE 13. The hatchet shall be forever buried, and the peace given by the United States, and friendship re-established between the said states on the one part, and all the Cherokees on the other, shall be universal; and the contracting parties shall use their utmost endeavors to maintain the peace given as aforesaid, and friendship re-established.”

Native American Idioms and Phraseology

Native American idioms and phraseology, as described by early settlers, are consistent with the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon. Below are some examples of Native American idioms consistent with scripture. Examples are from John Heckewelder’s Manners and Customs of The Indian Nations Who Once Inhabited Pennsylvania and the Neighboring States.

Native American saying: “I will place you under my wings!”

Meaning: I will protect you at all hazards! You shall be perfectly safe, nobody shall molest you!

Scripture: 3 Nephi 10:6 O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

Native American saying: ”To bury deep in the earth” (an injury done)

Meaning: To consign it to oblivion.

Scripture: 2 Nephi 26:5 And they that kill the prophets, and the saints, the depths of the earth shall swallow them up, saith the Lord of Hosts; and mountains shall cover them.
(Heckewelder pg. 140)

Native American saying: “You have spoken with your lips only, not from the heart!”

Meaning: You endeavor to deceive me; you do not intend to do as you say!

Scripture: 2 Nephi 27:25 Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

Native American saying: “draw the thorns out of your feet and legs, grease your Stiffened joints with oil, and wipe the sweat off your body.”

Meaning: I make you feel comfortable after your fatiguing journey, that you may enjoy yourself while with us.

Hebrew Custom: The washing of feet is a Hebrew custom. It was the first item done when entering a house or tent. The host would provide the water and the guest would wash his own feet. If the host was wealthy, a slave would wash the feet.

Anointing of oil was used by Jews to refresh and invigorate the body. This custom is still done today by Arabians. In the example there are some similarities in the cleaning of feet and legs from thorns and the anointing of oil or grease to refresh the body.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

Native American Council Tower

Mosiah 2:7

7 For the multitude being so great that king Benjamin could not teach them all within the walls of the temple, therefore he caused a tower to be erected, that thereby his people might hear the words which he should speak unto them.

“Professor Carr of its once having supported a building similar to the council-house observed by Bartram on a mound at the old Cherokee town Cowe. Both were built on mounds, both were circular, both were built on posts set in the ground at equal distances from each other, and each had a central pillar. As tending to confirm this statement of Bartram’s, the following passage may be quoted, where, speaking of Colonel Christian’s march against the Cherokee towns in 1770, Eamsey says that this officer found in the center of each town ”a circular tower rudely built and covered with dirt, 30 feet in diameter, and about 20 feet high. This tower was used as a council-house… Mr. M. C. Bead, of Hudson, Ohio, discovered similar evidences in a mound near Chattanooga, and Mr. Gerard Fowke has quite recently found the same thing in a mound at Waverly, Ohio.”
(Thomas 1889 pg. 32)

[AI2.0]

Ripleancum, all your evidence of native Americans being 'like' the Nephites is no proof of the heartland model. We KNOW BY REVELATION that the native Americans are modern descendants of lamanite/nephites, this is not in dispute. We know from the bofm that the people warred and were scattered, there were native Americans all over the United States when whites came here, just because they were scattered and broke into tribes, we still would expect to see some remnants of their past shared culture. It was 1400 years later that the book of mormon was revealed, a lot happened during those centuries, and we know they would be scattered because of Nephi's vision and prophecies. The evidence you cite only shows they are descendants which is not in dispute. What is in dispute is that the heartland model map doesn't work with the revealed knowledge of book of Mormon lands found in scripture.

[ripliancum]

The North American Tribes are not related to the Meso American civilizations their cultures are completely different.

Also only Middle East DNA is Found in North American Natives. Its not found in central America.

[larsenb]

The North American Tribes are not related to the Meso American civilizations their cultures are completely different.

Also only Middle East DNA is Found in North American Natives. Its not found in central America.

We've already had a discussion about your misuse of the term: North America. Central America is IN North America.

The Hopi are very different than the Navajo, and many other tribes. The Goshute Paiutes, etc., are very different from what the Mandan were. So what?

You have what appears to be an overweening tendency to make 'authoritative' statements that you can't possibly know, and that are usually unsupportable, blanket generalities.

And once more, Dr. Ugo Perego, an LDS geneticist, has rebutted Meldrum's misuse of DNA data. He has even tried to get a dialogue going with Meldrum to try to educate him on this subject, but according to Perego, Meldrum has never bothered to respond. There is a book, called: The Book of Mormon and DNA Research that contains many essays that delve into the limitations of using mitochondrial and Y Chromosome data to trace the DNA of relatively small groups that entered the western Hemisphere gene pool 2600 years ago. I recommend you buy it and try to assimilate the arguments made therein.

Incidentally, my information about Ugo Perego and Ron Meldrum interactions came from a talk I heard Ugo give a year ago. However, he had written an article earlier, indicating he actually had had direct interactions with Meldrum. It is found here: http://bmaf.org/node/424 .

He may have been describing more recent attempts to talk to Meldrum in his talk last year.

Also, here is an excellent, but very long article by Perego on the subject of using DNA evidence to try to prove the Book of Mormon, etc. It is called: Is Decrypting the Genetic Legacy of America’s Indigenous Populations Key to the Historicity of the Book of Mormon? , and is found here: http://bmaf.org/node/455

[DesertWonderer]

The North American Tribes are not related to the Meso American civilizations their cultures are completely different.

Also only Middle East DNA is Found in North American Natives. Its not found in central America.

In addition to what Larsenb already said, you really should read serious and authoritative materials about American archaeology. Pre-Columbian Meso and South Americans did indeed migrate to what you call "North America" ( when what you really mean is the Continental US). Therefore in contrast to what you said above, b/c of those migrations, they do relate. The BoM point of fact corroborates this when it talkes about Hoth building ships and leading migrations to the north.

[AI2.0]

The North American Tribes are not related to the Meso American civilizations their cultures are completely different.

Also only Middle East DNA is Found in North American Natives. Its not found in central America.

You don't understand dna. Rod Meldrum does not understand dna. You are twisting it to suit your theory.

Answer me this, yes or no. Do you believe that the peoples of central and South America are descendants of lamanites and nephites?

[ripliancum]

I'm just going by what research has shown. The research has shown that North American Native Americans have dna that originates in the middle east.

That can't be said for central and south American indigenous tribes.

Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)

William Penn wrote the following to a friend in England. “I found them [the Indians of the eastern shore of North America] with like countenances with the Hebrew race; and their children of so lively a resemblance to them that a man would think himself in Duke’s place, or Barry Street, in London, when he sees them.”
(Murray 1908)

[brianj]

I'm just going by what research has shown. The research has shown that North American Native Americans have dna that originates in the middle east.

That can't be said for central and south American indigenous tribes.

Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)

William Penn wrote the following to a friend in England. “I found them [the Indians of the eastern shore of North America] with like countenances with the Hebrew race; and their children of so lively a resemblance to them that a man would think himself in Duke’s place, or Barry Street, in London, when he sees them.”
(Murray 1908)

I wonder how much of that Eurasian DNA can be traced to early European settlers. There was a lot more intermixing than you were taught in high school history classes. You may remember learning about the "mystery" of the lost Roanoke colony. That is only a mystery for people who don't have the available evidence or are incompetent detectives. The European influence on the natives, the native influence on the Europeans (especially personal cleanliness), and the fact that some colonies had to set guards to prevent people from joining local native groups all strongly suggest that the colonists joined natives when things got tough.

[ripliancum]

The middle east dna predates European arrival Kennwick man has middle east dna. Scientist say it arrived in America around 12000BC but there is no genetic pathway from the Middle east to North America. The middle east native American dna marker is not found in Asia or Siberia. According to scientist theory middle east people migrated from temperate climates to the arctic wastelands of Siberia then to North America. There is no dna evidence of this suppose migration. What book of Mormon critics said about dna problems that exist for meso america is the same problem this make believe theory has. DNA markers are missing in all they key areas nor does a theory of migrating to sub arctic wastelands make sense.

Besides if you believe that human begin with Adam and Eve there is no way a 12000BC timeline could be correct.

[AI2.0]

I'm just going by what research has shown. The research has shown that North American Native Americans have dna that originates in the middle east.

That can't be said for central and south American indigenous tribes.

Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)

William Penn wrote the following to a friend in England. “I found them [the Indians of the eastern shore of North America] with like countenances with the Hebrew race; and their children of so lively a resemblance to them that a man would think himself in Duke’s place, or Barry Street, in London, when he sees them.”
(Murray 1908)

Regardless of whether or not YOU think the peoples of Mexico, Central and South America are descendants of Lehi, the church recognizes them and prophecies have been stated and are being fulfilled today.

In 1851 the first missionaries to South America, Elders Parley P. Pratt and Rufus Allen, landed at Valparaiso, Chile, and found that country in the throes of a civil war. No permanent mission was established, and the missionary effort on the South American continent was deferred until 1925, when Elder Melvin J. Ballard, accompanied by Elders Rulon S. Wells and Rey L. Pratt, knelt in a grove of weeping willow trees near the bank of the Rio de la Plata in the city of Buenos Aires, Argentina, and dedicated the land of South America to the preaching of the gospel. In his prayer, Elder Ballard made this reference to the work that would be done among the Lamanites in the South American lands:

“And we also pray that we may see the beginning of the fulfilment of thy promises contained in the Book of Mormon to the Indians of this land, who are descendants of Lehi, millions of whom reside in this country, who have long been downtrodden and borne many afflictions and suffered because of sin and transgression, even as the prophets of the Book of Mormon did foretell. …

“Oh, Father, let thy spirit work upon them and manifest the truth of these things unto them, as we and thy servants who shall follow us shall bear witness of thy precious promises unto this branch of the House of Israel.”

In the report of these proceedings, Elder Ballard added this note: “Each of the brethren spoke briefly. … They blessed each other and felt that as a result of opening this mission, many Europeans in that land would receive the gospel; but that, ultimately, the great work of the mission would be to the Indians. This was a momentous day.” (Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, Bryant S. Hinckley, Deseret Book Co., 1949, pp. 96–97.)

At the October 1879 conference of the Church, three missionaries were called to open a mission in Mexico City. An earlier attempt (1876) to establish a mission in Mexico had not succeeded. Interruptions in the work occurred in later years as a consequence of the revolutionary period in Mexico. Nevertheless, the missions in Mexico are now among the most successful in the world, and a high percentage of those who have become members of the Church in Mexico can claim Book of Mormon origins. The 1960 census in that country indicated that as many as 26 million of its people at that date were of Indian ancestry....


Although many other enterprises among the Lamanites of North and South America and the islands of the Pacific have met with outstanding success over the years, perhaps the most dramatic events in the Church’s efforts among the Lamanites have occurred during the past twenty years. Many of the more recent developments have been motivated in large measure by President Spencer W. Kimball, who for a number of years served as chairman of the Church Indian Committee.

An extensive educational system has been developed throughout the Pacific and in Mexico, Central America, and South America. Nearly 16,000 students are attending Church-operated schools in Chile, Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay, Mexico, Fiji, New Zealand, Western Samoa, Tahiti, and Tonga. The great majority of these students are of Lamanite descent. They are receiving opportunities to develop talents and leadership abilities that will undergird the great growth of the Church yet to occur in these same areas.

In addition to those young people attending Church schools in the locations just mentioned, another 13,000 are enrolled in seminary classes as they attend public schools and federal schools in the United States and Canada. Approximately 1,500 attend Brigham Young University at its Provo, Utah, and Laie, Hawaii, campuses.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/12/ming ... s?lang=eng

This article in the Ensign is from over 40 years ago. The Lamanites in these countries continue to 'blossom as a rose' as they accept the gospel and join the church becoming a huge part of the membership in the last days. Just this fact alone; the clear fulfillment of divine prophecy, should prove to the spiritually open-minded, that these peoples are the descendants of Lamanites/Nephites. Not only that, they are also now fulfilling another prophesied destiny--they are 'going through' the gentiles 'as ravening wolves', tearing us apart, because gentiles are turning from their God, Jesus Christ, who is the god of this land. We ARE seeing them, 'the remnant of Jacob', fulfilling that prophecy as well.

If you've decided they aren't part of this group, simply because of your erroneous understanding of DNA, that's foolhardy.

This is not an 'either, or' situation. The Native Americans and the peoples of the southern part of the continent all can claim this lineage, as well a the peoples in the pacific islands.

[ripliancum]

They are genetically related to the tribes that Laman and Lemauel would have intermarried with. So in that way they are Lamanites. But as stated only north American Indians have dna markers that originate in the middle east

[cynth]

I'm just going by what research has shown...
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)

you have shopped that article and your misinterpretations of it all over the internet. Your errors have been pointed out so many times and you have never responded. You just make Mormons look bad with your uneducated posts. In no way do you "go by the research." What's your point in posting your errors ovcer and over?

[samizdat]

The Church´s own Gospel Essays refutes the DNA claim ripliancum. 15000 BC != 2600 BC or 600 BC

[AI2.0]

I'm just going by what research has shown...
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)

you have shopped that article and your misinterpretations of it all over the internet. Your errors have been pointed out so many times and you have never responded. You just make Mormons look bad with your uneducated posts. In no way do you "go by the research." What's your point in posting your errors ovcer and over?

I actually believe it poses a real threat for some members' fragile faith. I've read message forums like this one where members have left the church because they believed these purported DNA claims and then found out they were not accurate. This caused doubts and opened the person up to looking at more of these types of claims, and they concluded that the church is teaching and promoting falsehoods--even though the church is NOT teaching these things. Certain members are responsible for this.

Ripliancum is misinterpreting the DNA evidence and trying to force it to fit into the paradigm that he believes. The fact is that the church teaches that ALL indigenous peoples of the American continents are potentially descendants of the Nephites/lamanites, not just the Native Americans. The church makes no distinction; and the church teaches that the Book of Mormon lands exact location has not been revealed, so it leaves this open. Ripliancum takes a very narrow view--and relies on the false premise that the Haplogroup X2A(only found in Native Americans) is Lehi group DNA--but this DNA group came here 1,000s of years before the Lehites AND the Jaredites, so it's clearly NOT Lehite DNA.

[ripliancum]

AI

What your saying is that Man evolved from apes and pond scum. The arrival of haplo group x according to scientist predates adam and eve by 9000 years. You may believe that man evolved from apes but I dont And I think most traditional lds members believe mankind came from adam and eve not monkeys.

Also I its a fact that Haplo Group x origins are in the middle east. The highest concentration of Haplo group x is found in Israel and Native Americans.

[DesertWonderer]

I'm just going by what research has shown...
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)

you have shopped that article and your misinterpretations of it all over the internet. Your errors have been pointed out so many times and you have never responded. You just make Mormons look bad with your uneducated posts. In no way do you "go by the research." What's your point in posting your errors ovcer and over?

I'm convinced that ripliancum is an anti-mormon posing as an active member with the purpose of peddling false information just to cloud the subject and thereby weaken the veracity of the BoM and feel sorry for him. If not, I REALLY feel sorry for him and hope the best for him. Maybe he's one of Wayne May's sock puppets? This is the type of scholarship that he employs.

[ripliancum]

Many people have unfortunately left the church. They site no evidence for the Book of Mormon in Central and South America. They can not picture a horse to be a tapir and iron swords made as wood. Common themes for those who purport the meso American model. The good thing about the meso american model is that it forces people to rely solely on faith which is not a bad thing.

[ripliancum]

On the other hand North American has direct or historical evidence for every aspect of the Book of Mormon.

Reformed Egyptian Four Surviving Characters
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... glyph.html

Native American Traditional use of Sacred Metal Tablets
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... se-of.html

Archeological Evidence of the West Sea Fortified Line
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... t-sea.html

Native American Hebrew like temples
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... mples.html
Book of Mormon Cloth and Fine Twined Linen
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ttons.html
Book of Mormon Swords
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... words.html
Iroquios Lamanites
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... nites.html

Buried Nephite City and BOM Elephants
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... hants.html
Nephite/Hopewell Fortifications and ruins
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... tions.html

Book of Mormon goats and cattle
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... attle.html
Book of Mormon DNA Evidence X2A'J
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... e-x2a.html

[AI2.0]

AI

What your saying is that Man evolved from apes and pond scum.No, I did not say that, I do not believe that. You are making false statements about me because I refuse to allow you to use that DNA evidence to say something that it does not say. I'm not citing that Haplogroup DNA evidence, you are. And you are misleading others by NOT telling them that the scientists say it is from 15,000 BC. If, as you say, it can't be from 15,000 BC, then frankly, you ought to be wary of their data and NOT be citing it at all! The arrival of haplo group x according to scientist predates adam and eve by 9000 years. You may believe that man evolved from apes but I dont And I think most traditional lds members believe mankind came from adam and eve not monkeys.The DNA scientists have not even mentioned Adam and Eve! I believe Adam and Eve lived in 6,000 BC. I'm not the one citing DNA evidence which claims that men were on the earth in 15,000 BC--YOU ARE! Can you not see the irony of you accusing me of ignoring the Adam and Eve story, when you are the one citing this DNA evidence which researchers say is from 15,000 BC. I'm saying that it should not be ignored that those who found it claim it's from thousands of years before the Jaredites and Nephite/Lamanites. I'm saying because of this, it should not be used to try to bolster the Book of Mormon. It's misleading and dishonest. And, in the long run, it will damage the faith of some members when they find out they've been misled.

Also I its a fact that Haplo Group x origins are in the middle east. The highest concentration of Haplo group x is found in Israel and Native Americans.

If it was from a group who came to the Americas in 600 BC, it would matter. It's not. It is irrelevant. You don't have the right to take people's research, ignore their findings and twist it around to make it say what you want it to.

[larsenb]

AI

What your saying is that Man evolved from apes and pond scum.No, I did not say that, I do not believe that. You are making false statements about me because I refuse to allow you to use that DNA evidence to say something that it does not say. I'm not citing that Haplogroup DNA evidence, you are. And you are misleading others by NOT telling them that the scientists say it is from 15,000 BC. If, as you say, it can't be from 15,000 BC, then frankly, you ought to be wary of their data and NOT be citing it at all! The arrival of haplo group x according to scientist predates adam and eve by 9000 years. You may believe that man evolved from apes but I dont And I think most traditional lds members believe mankind came from adam and eve not monkeys.The DNA scientists have not even mentioned Adam and Eve! I believe Adam and Eve lived in 6,000 BC. I'm not the one citing DNA evidence which claims that men were on the earth in 15,000 BC--YOU ARE! Can you not see the irony of you accusing me of ignoring the Adam and Eve story, when you are the one citing this DNA evidence which researchers say is from 15,000 BC. I'm saying that it should not be ignored that those who found it claim it's from thousands of years before the Jaredites and Nephite/Lamanites. I'm saying because of this, it should not be used to try to bolster the Book of Mormon. It's misleading and dishonest. And, in the long run, it will damage the faith of some members when they find out they've been misled.

Also I its a fact that Haplo Group x origins are in the middle east. The highest concentration of Haplo group x is found in Israel and Native Americans.

If it was from a group who came to the Americas in 600 BC, it would matter. It's not. It is irrelevant. You don't have the right to take people's research, ignore their findings and twist it around to make it say what you want it to.

Amen to what AI2.0 says. Extreme irony.

[AI2.0]

AI

What your saying is that Man evolved from apes and pond scum.No, I did not say that, I do not believe that. You are making false statements about me because I refuse to allow you to use that DNA evidence to say something that it does not say. I'm not citing that Haplogroup DNA evidence, you are. And you are misleading others by NOT telling them that the scientists say it is from 15,000 BC. If, as you say, it can't be from 15,000 BC, then frankly, you ought to be wary of their data and NOT be citing it at all! The arrival of haplo group x according to scientist predates adam and eve by 9000 years. You may believe that man evolved from apes but I dont And I think most traditional lds members believe mankind came from adam and eve not monkeys.The DNA scientists have not even mentioned Adam and Eve! I believe Adam and Eve lived in 6,000 BC. I'm not the one citing DNA evidence which claims that men were on the earth in 15,000 BC--YOU ARE! Can you not see the irony of you accusing me of ignoring the Adam and Eve story, when you are the one citing this DNA evidence which researchers say is from 15,000 BC. I'm saying that it should not be ignored that those who found it claim it's from thousands of years before the Jaredites and Nephite/Lamanites. I'm saying because of this, it should not be used to try to bolster the Book of Mormon. It's misleading and dishonest. And, in the long run, it will damage the faith of some members when they find out they've been misled.

Also I its a fact that Haplo Group x origins are in the middle east. The highest concentration of Haplo group x is found in Israel and Native Americans.

If it was from a group who came to the Americas in 600 BC, it would matter. It's not. It is irrelevant. You don't have the right to take people's research, ignore their findings and twist it around to make it say what you want it to.

Amen to what AI2.0 says. Extreme irony.

Thanks

And thank you very much for sharing your knowledge on these BofM threads, I'm learning a lot from your posts and the links you've shared.