Ensign Article--Yet ANOTHER Anti-Male Pornography Push

[Fiannan]

Ever notice all the men flocking to go see "50 Shades of Grey?" and the new sequel?

Those men need a good talking to.

[Finrock]

I was going to leave this thread, but I decided to share my thoughts first, --there are one or two who might care what I have to say.

The op was critical of an article in the Ensign and instead of the criticism subsiding, it's gotten worse. The thread has devolved into once again an opportunity to criticize the LDS church, it's doctrines, it's teachings and it's members.

While this is common on the forum, I'm afraid, at least on this thread, it's become overwhelming. It has come to the point where I've moved past 'righteous indignation' and am now suffering from a hopeless, grieving spirit. There are just too many of you who are suffering--from emotional issues, past hurts, anger, resentment, addictions, transgressions, ignorance and sin. I feel so bad, I want to help, but this morning after catching up reading the thread, I realized that I'm unable to help. I'm becoming an object of ridicule and having been on forums for years, I know that when that happens, it's time to reevaluate the time and effort expended here.

I witness that the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is true, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is TRUE, the only true and living church on the earth and Jesus Christ leads and guides it. When we join this church we leave neutral ground and if we do not continue on with repenting, trying to grow spiritually, try to become more like Christ and follow his commandments and teachings, then we allow ourselves to fall more and more under the influence of the evil one. If we give in to temptation, if we indulge in transgressions and sins and if we stop trying to become better people, we will start to become hardened and past feeling. In time we will no longer be able to experience the joys of the gospel, of living a righteous life, of service and having charity for others. Instead we become critical, we harbor doubts, nurse resentments, envy and lose the spirit of charity for those around us, and if it continues, we will become resentful, bitter and jaded. And in order to salve and quiet our consciousness of guilt, we will justify ourselves in sin and blame others for our problems and our choices.

This hit me as I read this scripture this morning, 1 Ne 14:7:

"...I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other--either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil..."


The gospel of Jesus Christ can bring us 'peace and life eternal', if we will strive to live it, but if we reject it, we will come to experience 'hardness of hearts, blindness of minds, captivity, destruction'. I firmly believe that when you reject our church's admonishment to follow the moral codes and doctrines of the church, when you choose to indulge in sin and transgression, when you no longer try to live a virtuous life for whatever reasons and instead rationalize and choose to blame others, then misery is what you'll sow; resentment, ignorance, unkindness, bitterness.

This thread is an example of this and the only hope for those suffering from this comes through the Atonement of Jesus Christ; and that won't come until there is a spirit of humility, of remorse, of a desire to change and to put aside bitterness, envy and hatred.

AI2.0,

You can only speak for yourself. Bear in mind that what you wrote is what is in your heart and what is in your mind, but doesn't necessarily reflect or speak to what is in other people's hearts and other people's mind.

If I speak with the eloquence of men and of angels, but have no love, I become no more than blaring brass or crashing cymbal. If I have the gift of foretelling the future and hold in my mind not only all human knowledge but the very secrets of God, and if I also have that absolute faith which can move mountains, but have no love, I amount to nothing at all. If I dispose of all that I possess, yes, even if I give my own body to be burned, but have no love, I achieve precisely nothing.

4 This love of which I speak is slow to lose patience—it looks for a way of being constructive. It is not possessive: it is neither anxious to impress nor does it cherish inflated ideas of its own importance.

5-6 Love has good manners and does not pursue selfish advantage. It is not touchy. It does not keep account of evil or gloat over the wickedness of other people. On the contrary, it is glad with all good men when truth prevails.

7-8a Love knows no limit to its endurance, no end to its trust, no fading of its hope; it can outlast anything. It is, in fact, the one thing that still stands when all else has fallen.

Feeling overwhelmed, feeling indignation (it's always righteous, right, meaning, I never hear anyone say they are feeling "unrighteous" indignation), and suffering from a "hopeless, grieving spirit" is the opposite of love. I'm sorry you are feeling that way. Feeling these feelings is not fun. The gospel of Jesus Christ can, indeed, bring "peace and life eternal." Jesus Christ is the great Healer and He can heal all suffering, abuse, addictions, and pains. I kindly suggest that you take care of your wounded spirit before you try to help others and don't try to place the burden of helping others overcome their issues on your shoulders. The shoulders of Jesus Christ are sufficient and necessary.

-Finrock

Don't worry yourself about me, Finrock. I'd appreciate it if you would not address me or my posts--put me on your ignore list if you think that might help.

I'm not worrying about you. I do feel empathy, however, for the feelings you expressed. I think you were trying to speak about other people, and in your post you even said that you are seeing all these negative things in this thread. You are talking about people on this thread and accusing and judging them. However, I don't think you can actually point out where people were doing the things you accused them of or how you were judging them. In short, your post, although intended to judge and accuse others of being anti-Church, anti-gospel, and etc., was really just a reflection of your own negative core beliefs about yourself. I know you don't like me pointing that out and I can understand why you wouldn't want me to respond to your post because that would be a hard pill to swallow and what I said doesn't validate your judgments and accusations about others:

I firmly believe that when you reject our church's admonishment to follow the moral codes and doctrines of the church, when you choose to indulge in sin and transgression, when you no longer try to live a virtuous life for whatever reasons and instead rationalize and choose to blame others, then misery is what you'll sow; resentment, ignorance, unkindness, bitterness.

This thread is an example of this and the only hope for those suffering from this comes through the Atonement of Jesus Christ; and that won't come until there is a spirit of humility, of remorse, of a desire to change and to put aside bitterness, envy and hatred.

The substance of your post is to accuse and judge others (likely those who have disagreed with your perspective) of choosing to indulge in sin, transgression, not trying to live a virtuous live, rationalizing, blaming others, and of sowing resentment, ignorance, unkindness, bitterness. You accuse people of suffering all these consequences of sin and of being prideful, of being bitter, envious, and full of hatred.

I'll repeat what I said earlier, these statements and judgments of yours are really just a reflection of what is in your heart and mind, because you wrote them. Just because you intended these statements to apply to others and not to you doesn't make it true that it applies to others and that you are in actuality speaking about others. From my perspective, based on this post of yours, you seem to be the one who is feeling bitter, resentment, and being unkind. You say you are feeling hopeless, grieving, and indignation. I am genuinely sorry that you are feeling these feelings. I can tell from the tenor and content of your post that it isn't fun for you. I've felt the same way in my life and it sucks a lot.

One thing I've learned from my experiences and healing process is that when we are feeling these negative feelings towards others, feeling angry, upset, etc., it is actually a result of our own negative core beliefs about ourselves. All of us have these negative core beliefs in some form or another. In the end, we choose and decide how we will feel and how we will react. By recognizing that these negative core beliefs exist and then taking responsibility for our own thoughts and feelings we very much empower ourselves because then there is no circumstance or no person who can rob us of our peace. Whether you accept these words or not is up to you. There are other people who are reading this too and these truths apply to them just as much as they would apply to you and me.

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

I was going to leave this thread, but I decided to share my thoughts first, --there are one or two who might care what I have to say.

The op was critical of an article in the Ensign and instead of the criticism subsiding, it's gotten worse. The thread has devolved into once again an opportunity to criticize the LDS church, it's doctrines, it's teachings and it's members.

While this is common on the forum, I'm afraid, at least on this thread, it's become overwhelming. It has come to the point where I've moved past 'righteous indignation' and am now suffering from a hopeless, grieving spirit. There are just too many of you who are suffering--from emotional issues, past hurts, anger, resentment, addictions, transgressions, ignorance and sin. I feel so bad, I want to help, but this morning after catching up reading the thread, I realized that I'm unable to help. I'm becoming an object of ridicule and having been on forums for years, I know that when that happens, it's time to reevaluate the time and effort expended here.

I witness that the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is true, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is TRUE, the only true and living church on the earth and Jesus Christ leads and guides it. When we join this church we leave neutral ground and if we do not continue on with repenting, trying to grow spiritually, try to become more like Christ and follow his commandments and teachings, then we allow ourselves to fall more and more under the influence of the evil one. If we give in to temptation, if we indulge in transgressions and sins and if we stop trying to become better people, we will start to become hardened and past feeling. In time we will no longer be able to experience the joys of the gospel, of living a righteous life, of service and having charity for others. Instead we become critical, we harbor doubts, nurse resentments, envy and lose the spirit of charity for those around us, and if it continues, we will become resentful, bitter and jaded. And in order to salve and quiet our consciousness of guilt, we will justify ourselves in sin and blame others for our problems and our choices.

This hit me as I read this scripture this morning, 1 Ne 14:7:

"...I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other--either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil..."


The gospel of Jesus Christ can bring us 'peace and life eternal', if we will strive to live it, but if we reject it, we will come to experience 'hardness of hearts, blindness of minds, captivity, destruction'. I firmly believe that when you reject our church's admonishment to follow the moral codes and doctrines of the church, when you choose to indulge in sin and transgression, when you no longer try to live a virtuous life for whatever reasons and instead rationalize and choose to blame others, then misery is what you'll sow; resentment, ignorance, unkindness, bitterness.

This thread is an example of this and the only hope for those suffering from this comes through the Atonement of Jesus Christ; and that won't come until there is a spirit of humility, of remorse, of a desire to change and to put aside bitterness, envy and hatred.

AI2.0,

You can only speak for yourself. Bear in mind that what you wrote is what is in your heart and what is in your mind, but doesn't necessarily reflect or speak to what is in other people's hearts and other people's mind.

If I speak with the eloquence of men and of angels, but have no love, I become no more than blaring brass or crashing cymbal. If I have the gift of foretelling the future and hold in my mind not only all human knowledge but the very secrets of God, and if I also have that absolute faith which can move mountains, but have no love, I amount to nothing at all. If I dispose of all that I possess, yes, even if I give my own body to be burned, but have no love, I achieve precisely nothing.

4 This love of which I speak is slow to lose patience—it looks for a way of being constructive. It is not possessive: it is neither anxious to impress nor does it cherish inflated ideas of its own importance.

5-6 Love has good manners and does not pursue selfish advantage. It is not touchy. It does not keep account of evil or gloat over the wickedness of other people. On the contrary, it is glad with all good men when truth prevails.

7-8a Love knows no limit to its endurance, no end to its trust, no fading of its hope; it can outlast anything. It is, in fact, the one thing that still stands when all else has fallen.

Feeling overwhelmed, feeling indignation (it's always righteous, right, meaning, I never hear anyone say they are feeling "unrighteous" indignation), and suffering from a "hopeless, grieving spirit" is the opposite of love. I'm sorry you are feeling that way. Feeling these feelings is not fun. The gospel of Jesus Christ can, indeed, bring "peace and life eternal." Jesus Christ is the great Healer and He can heal all suffering, abuse, addictions, and pains. I kindly suggest that you take care of your wounded spirit before you try to help others and don't try to place the burden of helping others overcome their issues on your shoulders. The shoulders of Jesus Christ are sufficient and necessary.

-Finrock

Don't worry yourself about me, Finrock. I'd appreciate it if you would not address me or my posts--put me on your ignore list if you think that might help.

I'm not worrying about you. I do feel empathy, however, for the feelings you expressed. I think you were trying to speak about other people, and in your post you even said that you are seeing all these negative things in this thread. You are talking about people on this thread and accusing and judging them. However, I don't think you can actually point out where people were doing the things you accused them of or how you were judging them. In short, your post, although intended to judge and accuse others of being anti-Church, anti-gospel, and etc., was really just a reflection of your own negative core beliefs about yourself. I know you don't like me pointing that out and I can understand why you wouldn't want me to respond to your post because that would be a hard pill to swallow and what I said doesn't validate your judgments and accusations about others:

I firmly believe that when you reject our church's admonishment to follow the moral codes and doctrines of the church, when you choose to indulge in sin and transgression, when you no longer try to live a virtuous life for whatever reasons and instead rationalize and choose to blame others, then misery is what you'll sow; resentment, ignorance, unkindness, bitterness.

This thread is an example of this and the only hope for those suffering from this comes through the Atonement of Jesus Christ; and that won't come until there is a spirit of humility, of remorse, of a desire to change and to put aside bitterness, envy and hatred.

The substance of your post is to accuse and judge others (likely those who have disagreed with your perspective) of choosing to indulge in sin, transgression, not trying to live a virtuous live, rationalizing, blaming others, and of sowing resentment, ignorance, unkindness, bitterness. You accuse people of suffering all these consequences of sin and of being prideful, of being bitter, envious, and full of hatred.

I'll repeat what I said earlier, these statements and judgments of yours are really just a reflection of what is in your heart and mind, because you wrote them. Just because you intended these statements to apply to others and not to you doesn't make it true that it applies to others and that you are in actuality speaking about others. From my perspective, based on this post of yours, you seem to be the one who is feeling bitter, resentment, and being unkind. You say you are feeling hopeless, grieving, and indignation. I am genuinely sorry that you are feeling these feelings. I can tell from the tenor and content of your post that it isn't fun for you. I've felt the same way in my life and it sucks a lot.

One thing I've learned from my experiences and healing process is that when we are feeling these negative feelings towards others, feeling angry, upset, etc., it is actually a result of our own negative core beliefs about ourselves. All of us have these negative core beliefs in some form or another. In the end, we choose and decide how we will feel and how we will react. By recognizing that these negative core beliefs exist and then taking responsibility for our own thoughts and feelings we very much empower ourselves because then there is no circumstance or no person who can rob us of our peace. Whether you accept these words or not is up to you. There are other people who are reading this too and these truths apply to them just as much as they would apply to you and me.

-Finrock

Once again, I'm asking you to please not respond to me or my posts.

[Sarah]

Yes, pretty much everything Butterfly said, especially the last paragraph. Oftentimes the brain and heart refuse to agree.
We both have valid experiences and neither is 100% correct, obviously. Everyone's experience is uniquely their own. I just wanted to share that my and many other women's experiences are exactly the opposite of what you stated about guilt. [/color]

Yeah there is no guilt, but righteous indignation.
There are a lot of LDS marriages where intimacy is cut out of the marriage. In a non lds marriage the woman know it end in separation if there is no giving of herself and has to make the decision prior to getting into a relationship. In the church you just have to suck it up. It does affect the children as they witness no closeness, hugging or holding hands, the way parents speak to each other just more of a business tone like you are conducting a meeting at work, etc... They think it is normal the first guy that comes near them or touches their arm they have a fit and end up feeling abused. My two daughter are like that are no longer in their teens, I think they are both permanently damaged.
The vast majority of married couples in our ward the husbands and wife's live separate lives.

So why should a couple, even with a wife who avoids sex, avoid each other physically, hand-holding, hugging, kissing. What are the reasons the men avoid doing this and what are the reasons a woman avoids it?

[Sarah]

Well, I guess the phrase "many are called, but few are chosen" applies to marriage too, because it's just too hard to figure out women and not worth it.

Yes toooo hard and failure rate toooo high and two costly. In the process the woman get hurt. if you think you like someone let them go before you hurt them... That is how it plays out divorce-rate is well over 50% and most marriages are not happy.
That is why the millennials see what is going on with their parents and run in horror from commitment.

I've never seen a happy one lol

I teach a primary class of 10-year-olds, and it was really cute, we were watching a part of one of the Joseph Smith movies when Joseph and Emma share a kiss, and one of the boys said how he was used to seeing his parents kiss all the time, and another asked, "whose parents don't kiss?" Every child in my class had parents who were physically affectionate with each other, and at least in my ward, I see lots of good marriages with affection and kindness happening all the time. I know that is not how it is for everyone, but it is not so uncommon as some make it out to be.

[Finrock]

Yes, pretty much everything Butterfly said, especially the last paragraph. Oftentimes the brain and heart refuse to agree.
We both have valid experiences and neither is 100% correct, obviously. Everyone's experience is uniquely their own. I just wanted to share that my and many other women's experiences are exactly the opposite of what you stated about guilt. [/color]

Yeah there is no guilt, but righteous indignation.
There are a lot of LDS marriages where intimacy is cut out of the marriage. In a non lds marriage the woman know it end in separation if there is no giving of herself and has to make the decision prior to getting into a relationship. In the church you just have to suck it up. It does affect the children as they witness no closeness, hugging or holding hands, the way parents speak to each other just more of a business tone like you are conducting a meeting at work, etc... They think it is normal the first guy that comes near them or touches their arm they have a fit and end up feeling abused. My two daughter are like that are no longer in their teens, I think they are both permanently damaged.
The vast majority of married couples in our ward the husbands and wife's live separate lives.

So why should a couple, even with a wife who avoids sex, avoid each other physically, hand-holding, hugging, kissing. What are the reasons the men avoid doing this and what are the reasons a woman avoids it?

I think the assumption (speaking in general here) that men are ready and willing to have sex no matter what might be going on in the relationship is false. I'd say most husbands don't want to feel that they are being used either. They don't just want sex, without intimacy or connection. It isn't just enough for a man to have parts that he can have sex with. Husbands want to have a true companion who acknowledges them and validates them.

I think this generalization has lots of mileage: Women, in general, want to be adored. Men, in general, want to be acknowledged and validated. A wife wants to know that her husband absolutely adores her even if she isn't the prettiest person or regardless of the fact that she might not be the -est in all things, to her husband she is the one he needs and wants. If this trust is broken, then it can be hard to win back, but not impossible.

Men are sensitive to how they are being treated and they do require deep emotional connections, even if they might in general be less inclined to communicate that or express that. I think it's a protection mechanism. You don't want to be vulnerable and set yourself up to be hurt emotionally by another, and so you put on a tough face. But, no doubt in my mind, men are looking for deep emotional connection with their wives. They want a true friend, a true companion, who they know will be there for them and will prioritize them above anything else besides God in this life. There are a lot of pressures put on a man in this life and they want to know that when they come home, their wife will validate and acknowledge them and absolutely be a support and strength to them.

I think anytime sex is used simply to gratify some natural desire or if you simply use a person to gratify a sexual need, it is harmful. This can happen sometimes in marriages and both men and women can be the offenders and when this happens both husband and wife victims of this behavior can begin to feel resentment.

I think most men want a partner in life who is willing to work together with them. A person who knows their flaws, but doesn't kick them when they are down. A person who realizes that the husband is not going to be perfect, yet they love them anyways. A person who is willing to trust them. Husband's want to feel like they can please and take care of their wife and that they are sufficient.

-Finrock

[kittycat51]

"And why shouldn't it? Many leaders and parents, in an effort to prevent premarital sex among the youth, focus on how bad sexuality is. I never had a lesson describing sexuality as godly, as righteous, as an actual need to satisfy between husband and wife. Lessons about sex were like the scripture i quoted earlier, who can find a virtuous woman? her price is far above rubies. And then someone typically says that a woman who is chaste, sexually pure, is worth more than rubies.(Which means that a woman who is not chaste is worth less).

If you grow up in the church and this mentality is driven into your mind from a young age, then of course some will struggle to switch, within 24hrs, the notion that sexuality is next to murder before the wedding night, and then an essential part of your marriage the next night.

Clearly it's not a problem for everyone- I would hope that some parents and leaders do emphasize the righteousness of sex. But we should be aware that a husband can be doing everything right and his wife still resist sex and it is not his fault. Sometimes he just can't do enough chores around the house to fix it; he can be completely nonjudgmental, never show any disappointment in her, truly love her unconditionally and it won't fix it.

Sometimes it is just rooted into her brain that her worth will be diminished, she will be less than rubies, if she taps into her sexual side. She knows in her mind it's ok to have sex, but her feeling is that it's carnal, sensual, and unholy, because that's what she was always taught to associate with sex."

Granted there are many who teach the "bad sexuality" theory, but having grown up in the Church my whole life, thankfully I wasn't one of them. My parents taught "sexuality as godly, as righteous", and yes I even had YW lessons on the same principle. I'm not sure if I mentioned this in a previous thread or even this one. MOST women have messed up hormones!!!! Between birth control, pregnancy which can throw EVERYTHING off, unhealthy foods we consume, air we breath, the environment (thanks to secret combinations and all their corruptness to screw people over) it's no wonder women lose interest. I have fallen into that category. It's amazing what hormone therapy can do for a person. I wish I would not have wasted years of not fixing that problem.

[Sarah]

"And why shouldn't it? Many leaders and parents, in an effort to prevent premarital sex among the youth, focus on how bad sexuality is. I never had a lesson describing sexuality as godly, as righteous, as an actual need to satisfy between husband and wife. Lessons about sex were like the scripture i quoted earlier, who can find a virtuous woman? her price is far above rubies. And then someone typically says that a woman who is chaste, sexually pure, is worth more than rubies.(Which means that a woman who is not chaste is worth less).

If you grow up in the church and this mentality is driven into your mind from a young age, then of course some will struggle to switch, within 24hrs, the notion that sexuality is next to murder before the wedding night, and then an essential part of your marriage the next night.

Clearly it's not a problem for everyone- I would hope that some parents and leaders do emphasize the righteousness of sex. But we should be aware that a husband can be doing everything right and his wife still resist sex and it is not his fault. Sometimes he just can't do enough chores around the house to fix it; he can be completely nonjudgmental, never show any disappointment in her, truly love her unconditionally and it won't fix it.

Sometimes it is just rooted into her brain that her worth will be diminished, she will be less than rubies, if she taps into her sexual side. She knows in her mind it's ok to have sex, but her feeling is that it's carnal, sensual, and unholy, because that's what she was always taught to associate with sex."

Granted there are many who teach the "bad sexuality" theory, but having grown up in the Church my whole life, thankfully I wasn't one of them. My parents taught "sexuality as godly, as righteous", and yes I even had YW lessons on the same principle. I'm not sure if I mentioned this in a previous thread or even this one. MOST women have messed up hormones!!!! Between birth control, pregnancy which can throw EVERYTHING off, unhealthy foods we consume, air we breath, the environment (thanks to secret combinations and all their corruptness to screw people over) it's no wonder women lose interest. I have fallen into that category. It's amazing what hormone therapy can do for a person. I wish I would not have wasted years of not fixing that problem.

I agree with this, and this too was my experience. I was always taught that sex was a good and wonderful thing reserved for marriage, and that it wasn't bad or evil, just something we can't do until marriage. And after I was married, I made the mistake of going on birth control pills which messed up my hormones and made sex painful for a long time. I know my diet was also a factor, and so I got really into nutrition, off the pills, and pregnancy finally reset my hormones.

[Sarah]

Yes, pretty much everything Butterfly said, especially the last paragraph. Oftentimes the brain and heart refuse to agree.
We both have valid experiences and neither is 100% correct, obviously. Everyone's experience is uniquely their own. I just wanted to share that my and many other women's experiences are exactly the opposite of what you stated about guilt. [/color]

Yeah there is no guilt, but righteous indignation.
There are a lot of LDS marriages where intimacy is cut out of the marriage. In a non lds marriage the woman know it end in separation if there is no giving of herself and has to make the decision prior to getting into a relationship. In the church you just have to suck it up. It does affect the children as they witness no closeness, hugging or holding hands, the way parents speak to each other just more of a business tone like you are conducting a meeting at work, etc... They think it is normal the first guy that comes near them or touches their arm they have a fit and end up feeling abused. My two daughter are like that are no longer in their teens, I think they are both permanently damaged.
The vast majority of married couples in our ward the husbands and wife's live separate lives.

So why should a couple, even with a wife who avoids sex, avoid each other physically, hand-holding, hugging, kissing. What are the reasons the men avoid doing this and what are the reasons a woman avoids it?

I think the assumption (speaking in general here) that men are ready and willing to have sex no matter what might be going on in the relationship is false. I'd say most husbands don't want to feel that they are being used either. They don't just want sex, without intimacy or connection. It isn't just enough for a man to have parts that he can have sex with. Husbands want to have a true companion who acknowledges them and validates them.

I think this generalization has lots of mileage: Women, in general, want to be adored. Men, in general, want to be acknowledged and validated. A wife wants to know that her husband absolutely adores her even if she isn't the prettiest person or regardless of the fact that she might not be the -est in all things, to her husband she is the one he needs and wants. If this trust is broken, then it can be hard to win back, but not impossible.

Men are sensitive to how they are being treated and they do require deep emotional connections, even if they might in general be less inclined to communicate that or express that. I think it's a protection mechanism. You don't want to be vulnerable and set yourself up to be hurt emotionally by another, and so you put on a tough face. But, no doubt in my mind, men are looking for deep emotional connection with their wives. They want a true friend, a true companion, who they know will be there for them and will prioritize them above anything else besides God in this life. There are a lot of pressures put on a man in this life and they want to know that when they come home, their wife will validate and acknowledge them and absolutely be a support and strength to them.

I think anytime sex is used simply to gratify some natural desire or if you simply use a person to gratify a sexual need, it is harmful. This can happen sometimes in marriages and both men and women can be the offenders and when this happens both husband and wife victims of this behavior can begin to feel resentment.

I think most men want a partner in life who is willing to work together with them. A person who knows their flaws, but doesn't kick them when they are down. A person who realizes that the husband is not going to be perfect, yet they love them anyways. A person who is willing to trust them. Husband's want to feel like they can please and take care of their wife and that they are sufficient.

-Finrock

You say a lot of good things here but I don't know if you answered my question?

[Finrock]

Yeah there is no guilt, but righteous indignation.
There are a lot of LDS marriages where intimacy is cut out of the marriage. In a non lds marriage the woman know it end in separation if there is no giving of herself and has to make the decision prior to getting into a relationship. In the church you just have to suck it up. It does affect the children as they witness no closeness, hugging or holding hands, the way parents speak to each other just more of a business tone like you are conducting a meeting at work, etc... They think it is normal the first guy that comes near them or touches their arm they have a fit and end up feeling abused. My two daughter are like that are no longer in their teens, I think they are both permanently damaged.
The vast majority of married couples in our ward the husbands and wife's live separate lives.

So why should a couple, even with a wife who avoids sex, avoid each other physically, hand-holding, hugging, kissing. What are the reasons the men avoid doing this and what are the reasons a woman avoids it?

I think the assumption (speaking in general here) that men are ready and willing to have sex no matter what might be going on in the relationship is false. I'd say most husbands don't want to feel that they are being used either. They don't just want sex, without intimacy or connection. It isn't just enough for a man to have parts that he can have sex with. Husbands want to have a true companion who acknowledges them and validates them.

I think this generalization has lots of mileage: Women, in general, want to be adored. Men, in general, want to be acknowledged and validated. A wife wants to know that her husband absolutely adores her even if she isn't the prettiest person or regardless of the fact that she might not be the -est in all things, to her husband she is the one he needs and wants. If this trust is broken, then it can be hard to win back, but not impossible.

Men are sensitive to how they are being treated and they do require deep emotional connections, even if they might in general be less inclined to communicate that or express that. I think it's a protection mechanism. You don't want to be vulnerable and set yourself up to be hurt emotionally by another, and so you put on a tough face. But, no doubt in my mind, men are looking for deep emotional connection with their wives. They want a true friend, a true companion, who they know will be there for them and will prioritize them above anything else besides God in this life. There are a lot of pressures put on a man in this life and they want to know that when they come home, their wife will validate and acknowledge them and absolutely be a support and strength to them.

I think anytime sex is used simply to gratify some natural desire or if you simply use a person to gratify a sexual need, it is harmful. This can happen sometimes in marriages and both men and women can be the offenders and when this happens both husband and wife victims of this behavior can begin to feel resentment.

I think most men want a partner in life who is willing to work together with them. A person who knows their flaws, but doesn't kick them when they are down. A person who realizes that the husband is not going to be perfect, yet they love them anyways. A person who is willing to trust them. Husband's want to feel like they can please and take care of their wife and that they are sufficient.

-Finrock

You say a lot of good things here but I don't know if you answered my question?

I think I was responding to the whole chain of conversations and not necessarily your question. Why there might not be intimacy or closeness is a complicated issues and I'm not sure there is a single answer. Like, it's possible that in public a spouse shows a lot of affection, but behind closed doors there is no connection and verbal and emotional abuse. Whoever is the victim here is going to resent showing affection in public because it will feel like a sham to them. They will recognize that it is fake and hugging, holding hands, and other things are done to put on for show. So, a man or a woman would want to avoid that because it doesn't feel authentic and because they are feeling resentful about how they are being treated when others are not around. But, there could be many reasons so I don't have a good answer to your question.

-Finrock

[Dlight]

It seems to me that we should adjust our approach. Porn kills the ability of s person to feel the spirit. Jesus still loves and is quick to forgive in spite of these problems, he understands struggle without condoning sin.

While many feelings women or men may have of betrayal might exist naturally, I think we should do more to focus on loving the sinner and not taking a person's sins personally as though they are against us. Do I want my wife to look at porn? No, because I know it can change the atmosphere of our home and open us to more spiritual attacks, but I don't feel like I've been betrayed by it in the least. It just is a particular weakness based on unmet needs. Maybe I'll feel inadequate like I can't fulfill those needs, so maybe I'd work harder to fulfill them for her within reason, but I wouldn't withdraw from her our be angry at her. These articles seem to magnify the sin and magnify the difficulty of healing when I think it should be very easy to forgive and look past it, even if the behavior is ongoing.

I'd be more concerned about contention and abuse than pornography on it's own.

People are carnal and natural, we all have weakness and yield to different weaknesses at different times, but instead of creating feelings of guilt for sin we need to create an atmosphere of unconditional love and support.

I think we are too scared that we might downplay the severity of a sin our make people think sinning is ok but guilt only works so much, true remorse comes once a person wants to follow God and that comes through feeling his unconditional love.

[Finrock]

It seems to me that we should adjust our approach. Porn kills the ability of s person to feel the spirit. Jesus still loves and is quick to forgive in spite of these problems, he understands struggle without condoning sin.

While many feelings women or men may have of betrayal might exist naturally, I think we should do more to focus on loving the sinner and not taking a person's sins personally as though they are against us. Do I want my wife to look at porn? No, because I know it can change the atmosphere of our home and open us to more spiritual attacks, but I don't feel like I've been betrayed by it in the least. It just is a particular weakness based on unmet needs. Maybe I'll feel inadequate like I can't fulfill those needs, so maybe I'd work harder to fulfill them for her within reason, but I wouldn't withdraw from her our be angry at her. These articles seem to magnify the sin and magnify the difficulty of healing when I think it should be very easy to forgive and look past it, even if the behavior is ongoing.

I'd be more concerned about contention and abuse than pornography on it's own.

People are carnal and natural, we all have weakness and yield to different weaknesses at different times, but instead of creating feelings of guilt for sin we need to create an atmosphere of unconditional love and support.

I think we are too scared that we might downplay the severity of a sin our make people think sinning is ok but guilt only works so much, true remorse comes once a person wants to follow God and that comes through feeling his unconditional love.

I agree with what you are saying here, but what you are suggesting is difficult to do unless we have our hearts changed. When we are honest with ourselves and if we truly believe in Jesus Christ, we will recognize and acknowledge that we have been unfaithful to Him in our relationship to Him. None are exempt from being unfaithful to Jesus Christ. However, despite how unfaithful we have been, Jesus continues to love us and continues to work with us and continues to be there for us. He perfectly understands that human condition. He perfectly understands the weaknesses that we have. He does not kick us when we are down and does not abandon us when we need Him most.

Not everyone will agree, but to me it is obvious and clear that we should treat each other in our relationships just as Jesus treats us. Meaning, we should emulate Jesus Christ in how to react to the infidelity of a spouse. If there is abuse, this is a different question and I'm not saying that one should continually subject oneself to abuse from a spouse who continues to abuse and is unrepentant. We can still love people who abuse us while protecting ourselves from being further abused. Pornography use by a spouse does not constitute abuse in my opinion. It is infidelity and a spouse is being unfaithful, but it does not constitute the same as physical, emotion, verbal, or sexual abuse.

What people need to understand, and this is born out by experience and by science, that when people struggle with issues like pornography or addictions of all sorts, the addiction is almost always a symptom of some underlying pain or problem or need that is being unmet in a person's life. Understanding this should engender in us a feeling of empathy for those struggling with addictions of all sorts, including pornography addiction, and we should adjust our actions and our feelings to reflect the reality of an addiction. That is why I actually thought the article was good overall, despite some shortcomings, because it focused on solutions and actions that allow us to not take these behaviors of infidelity and addiction personally, but to see them for what they are. The Church has some really good programs in place that can really help people to understand and to give themselves tools to control their lives and to find peace by applying the atonement of Jesus Christ. Our natural inclination to feel hurt, to feel betrayed, to want to lash out, to feel resentment, to give up, to abandon, or to try to hurt those who have hurt us can be just as harmful to us personally as the addiction of another can be to them.

Anyways, Christ showed us the way. The truth is that no matter how good you think you are or how much more righteous you think you are or how much better you think you are than someone else, we have all gone astray and we have all been unfaithful to Jesus Christ and do not merit any blessing. If we can somehow obtain and retain the Love of Jesus Christ in our hearts, then we will act and react just as He does towards our unfaithfulness to Him.

-Finrock

[brianj]

Where, in the article, was the male whose wife watched porn, cheated on him, frivolously divorced him, nagged him into hell, etc., and how he overcame it through the Atonement? HE'S NOT THERE, because either he doesn't exist--because no female came forward and no male tattled on her; he's not important; or he should and if he wanted to, could, just man up and he'd be fine.

I am willing to give the anonymous author the benefit of doubt. I hope she is someone who has spent so much time helping women who have been through this heartbreak that, intentionally or subconsciously, she focused on women whose husbands use porn or worse. And I suspect that if the author is a therapist who has helped women through this issue, there probably aren't any men who have come in for counseling on this subject.

Women often advertise their emotions. On the other hand, men are raised to keep their emotions to themselves except in limited situations (sports and the like). I would be willing to bet that if somebody here started polling Bishops they would find that women ask to be referred to a counselor when needed but men need to be prompted to go.
Recent research shows that men are actually more emotional than women, but we are raised to hide our emotion as a sign of strength. When a man is hurting he will almost always keep it inside. But when a woman is hurting everybody around here will learn all the intimate details of her pain. Therefore it shouldn't surprise us to see the perspective of the woman whose husband strayed published far and wide in a way that paints the problem as a men only kind of thing.



That being said, I would expect a mental health professional to write a far less biased article than what was published in the Ensign.

[Fiannan]

MOST women have messed up hormones!!!! Between birth control...

You may have something there. When a woman uses the birth control it tricks her body into believing it is pregnant when the fertile portion would take place. When a woman is fertile she seeks a different sort of man than when she is not able to be pregnant. Also, women subconsciously detect the best man to mate with when she is able to be impregnated. This has to do with immune systems. A woman who may, for instance, have high immunity to bacterial infections, but low immunity to viral, will seek out a man with opposite immune strengths so her children will be healthier. In other words, if a woman enjoys the smell of her husband that is nature's way of telling her he is a good immune match. One study associated with this showed that women who enjoyed the smell of their husbands were half as likely to divorce. So women who meet their one-and-only when on the pill may, when they go off to get pregnant, find their husband repulsive. And the subconscious of that woman will create friction between her and her husband.

[Sirocco]

Well, I guess the phrase "many are called, but few are chosen" applies to marriage too, because it's just too hard to figure out women and not worth it.

Yes toooo hard and failure rate toooo high and two costly. In the process the woman get hurt. if you think you like someone let them go before you hurt them... That is how it plays out divorce-rate is well over 50% and most marriages are not happy.
That is why the millennials see what is going on with their parents and run in horror from commitment.

I've never seen a happy one lol

I teach a primary class of 10-year-olds, and it was really cute, we were watching a part of one of the Joseph Smith movies when Joseph and Emma share a kiss, and one of the boys said how he was used to seeing his parents kiss all the time, and another asked, "whose parents don't kiss?" Every child in my class had parents who were physically affectionate with each other, and at least in my ward, I see lots of good marriages with affection and kindness happening all the time. I know that is not how it is for everyone, but it is not so uncommon as some make it out to be.

Well that's nice, at least some people are happy, doesn't look like it often, people sure don't sell marriage very well.
Everyone in my family has gotten divorced, both sides, and most of the older cousins, but maybe its my family, we are a mad bunch :))

[freedomforall]

Ever notice all the men flocking to go see "50 Shades of Grey?" and the new sequel?

Those men need a good talking to.

God will have plenty to say to them.

[freedomforall]

"And why shouldn't it? Many leaders and parents, in an effort to prevent premarital sex among the youth, focus on how bad sexuality is. I never had a lesson describing sexuality as godly, as righteous, as an actual need to satisfy between husband and wife. Lessons about sex were like the scripture i quoted earlier, who can find a virtuous woman? her price is far above rubies. And then someone typically says that a woman who is chaste, sexually pure, is worth more than rubies.(Which means that a woman who is not chaste is worth less).

If you grow up in the church and this mentality is driven into your mind from a young age, then of course some will struggle to switch, within 24hrs, the notion that sexuality is next to murder before the wedding night, and then an essential part of your marriage the next night.

Clearly it's not a problem for everyone- I would hope that some parents and leaders do emphasize the righteousness of sex. But we should be aware that a husband can be doing everything right and his wife still resist sex and it is not his fault. Sometimes he just can't do enough chores around the house to fix it; he can be completely nonjudgmental, never show any disappointment in her, truly love her unconditionally and it won't fix it.

Sometimes it is just rooted into her brain that her worth will be diminished, she will be less than rubies, if she taps into her sexual side. She knows in her mind it's ok to have sex, but her feeling is that it's carnal, sensual, and unholy, because that's what she was always taught to associate with sex."

Granted there are many who teach the "bad sexuality" theory, but having grown up in the Church my whole life, thankfully I wasn't one of them. My parents taught "sexuality as godly, as righteous", and yes I even had YW lessons on the same principle. I'm not sure if I mentioned this in a previous thread or even this one. MOST women have messed up hormones!!!! Between birth control, pregnancy which can throw EVERYTHING off, unhealthy foods we consume, air we breath, the environment (thanks to secret combinations and all their corruptness to screw people over) it's no wonder women lose interest. I have fallen into that category. It's amazing what hormone therapy can do for a person. I wish I would not have wasted years of not fixing that problem.

Finally, someone with a solution that makes sense. #-o It's simply amazing as to how so many forum members are clairvoyant these days, or know so much about other people's sex lives.

[freedomforall]

Where, in the article, was the male whose wife watched porn, cheated on him, frivolously divorced him, nagged him into hell, etc., and how he overcame it through the Atonement? HE'S NOT THERE, because either he doesn't exist--because no female came forward and no male tattled on her; he's not important; or he should and if he wanted to, could, just man up and he'd be fine.

I am willing to give the anonymous author the benefit of doubt. I hope she is someone who has spent so much time helping women who have been through this heartbreak that, intentionally or subconsciously, she focused on women whose husbands use porn or worse. And I suspect that if the author is a therapist who has helped women through this issue, there probably aren't any men who have come in for counseling on this subject.

Women often advertise their emotions. On the other hand, men are raised to keep their emotions to themselves except in limited situations (sports and the like). I would be willing to bet that if somebody here started polling Bishops they would find that women ask to be referred to a counselor when needed but men need to be prompted to go.
Recent research shows that men are actually more emotional than women, but we are raised to hide our emotion as a sign of strength. When a man is hurting he will almost always keep it inside. But when a woman is hurting everybody around here will learn all the intimate details of her pain. Therefore it shouldn't surprise us to see the perspective of the woman whose husband strayed published far and wide in a way that paints the problem as a men only kind of thing.



That being said, I would expect a mental health professional to write a far less biased article than what was published in the Ensign.

But let's face reality. The church is here to "Perfect The Saints, health professionals aren't. Some even encourage masturbation.

The Lord says, "be ye therefore perfect" so what does this mean to us? Sounds impossible but this is his command. Who are we to change it? Perfection is the goal of the Zion minded. We choose which spirit, good or bad, we list to obey.

Now here is a tough read: Drawing on the Powers of Heaven by Grant Von Harrison

[djinwa]

Just waded through this thread and it was painful.

LIke the war on drugs made things worse, the war on porn is worse than the porn itself. When you teach people that porn is so terrible that it will destroy their marriage, it probably will. Daddy looks at nudies once a month, so kiddos, goodbye to him!

Newsflash!!!! Men like looking at women's bodies. Doesn't mean they don't love their wife or kids. God made men that way. Apparently He screwed up, right?

Just like men like looking at bodies, women like looking at the property or power or bodies or romance of other men. Why is that not the same cheating as looking at a woman's body? What is so inherently evil about a body or sex?

Most divorces I know are by women dissatisfied with the income and lifestyle their husband provided. Tear up the family with no shame. And that is the big issue - the hypocrisy of it all. Jesus did not like hypocrites.

When hypocrites arbitrarily focus on certain sins, even with bigger consequences, and ignore others, you have to ask what the agenda is. And as I see it, it is about power and control over men. Otherwise, we would be shaming the women equally for blowing up their families, and for their fantasies that involve other men or their power or property or money or romance. Virtually every chick flick involves a fantasy guy, but since he has certain body parts covered, no problem in the eyes of society and the church.

We only seem to care about families when the men cause a problem. And since men are more likely to like sex, we go after that. Complete obsession over sex and nudity.

Instead of arbitrarily choosing to focus on certain sins, the emphasis should be on those with the most severe consequences. Why beat up a good dad and husband for occasionally looking at a woman's body while we ignore others who tear families apart over money or whatever.

I agree that most people should avoid marriage. Most men will end up a disappointment to their wives. Just about every marriage I know I've heard of such from the women. At least until their guy made alot of money. Easier to just send the ladies a check and stay away from them.

Anyway, as guys are told more and more how evil their god-given natures are, the more they'll want to spare the women from such disgusting behaviors. Hopefully the ladies can enjoy their cats.

[Fiannan]

Ever notice all the men flocking to go see "50 Shades of Grey?" and the new sequel?

Those men need a good talking to.

God will have plenty to say to them.

Didn't you notice I was being sarcastic? Almost all the showings have almost exclusively female audiences. And what are the movies about? And what types of porn sees huge increases in viewership when these movies come out, and previously when the books were released? What is the gender of the majority of these people visiting those sites?

[djinwa]

Where, in the article, was the male whose wife watched porn, cheated on him, frivolously divorced him, nagged him into hell, etc., and how he overcame it through the Atonement? HE'S NOT THERE, because either he doesn't exist--because no female came forward and no male tattled on her; he's not important; or he should and if he wanted to, could, just man up and he'd be fine.

I am willing to give the anonymous author the benefit of doubt. I hope she is someone who has spent so much time helping women who have been through this heartbreak that, intentionally or subconsciously, she focused on women whose husbands use porn or worse. And I suspect that if the author is a therapist who has helped women through this issue, there probably aren't any men who have come in for counseling on this subject.

Women often advertise their emotions. On the other hand, men are raised to keep their emotions to themselves except in limited situations (sports and the like). I would be willing to bet that if somebody here started polling Bishops they would find that women ask to be referred to a counselor when needed but men need to be prompted to go.
Recent research shows that men are actually more emotional than women, but we are raised to hide our emotion as a sign of strength. When a man is hurting he will almost always keep it inside. But when a woman is hurting everybody around here will learn all the intimate details of her pain. Therefore it shouldn't surprise us to see the perspective of the woman whose husband strayed published far and wide in a way that paints the problem as a men only kind of thing.



That being said, I would expect a mental health professional to write a far less biased article than what was published in the Ensign.

Why is it that women get a pass because of their natures or hormones? When will men get to blame their porn viewing on a testosterone problem?

Why is it cheating to look at another woman's body, but not equally cheating to broadcast the intimate details of your marriage to the world?

Hypocrisy. The only thing I can think of is that women need power over their man. They get it by using the church, much like many women use the cops to come arrest the man automatically, despite statistics that show men are abused as much as women.

So forget all the in-depth shrink psychobabble analysis - the church is simply a means of power and control. If a woman can have complete control over her man's sexuality, she can demand and get whatever she wants using sex as currency. And she won't have to give out much if she is his only outlet for sex.

Likewise, she can use the church to shame him into compliance. Tell all the members about his "problem". Threaten excommunication and divorce. Force counseling. Tell him to "man up" or "grow a pair".

And then we give him the priesthood and tell him he is in control! Hahahahahahaha!!!

I'm reminded of this story I read last year:
https://www.mormonwomen.com/interview/w ... hits-home/

Her reaction is completely out of control. Most of the world would laugh at her. You only react this way if you are trained so. Becoming nauseous, first thoughts are of divorce, spreading intimate details to everyone. Apparently this is considered normal behavior in the church.

He then told me we needed to talk. I knew it must be more serious, but I had no idea of the gravity of what was going to come out his mouth. His first words were, “My problems all started with pornography.”

My stomach went into an upheaval. I felt like I needed to run to the bathroom and throw up, but I couldn’t really move. I felt like I was having an out of body experience.
----------
If you would have asked me before this actually happened, I would have said I would leave my marriage. I’d be crazy not to. But in the moment he told me, I was numb. I didn’t know what I was supposed to do. My thoughts went straight to the Lord-“what am I supposed to do?”-over and over again I asked this. I thought I should probably leave, but I didn’t really feel like leaving. I tried going to a friend’s house, but the Spirit told me I needed to go home.
---------
The night he told me about his addiction, I called my mom. We ended up telling his family, and eventually, we knew we’d have to tell close family and friends. However, I prayed hard about who I was going to tell because I needed people who could support us, not judge us and who could handle the burden of knowing. There is a lot pain in knowing someone you love is struggling with something so hard.

[Fiannan]

I agree that most people should avoid marriage. Most men will end up a disappointment to their wives. Just about every marriage I know I've heard of such from the women. At least until their guy made alot of money. Easier to just send the ladies a check and stay away from them.

Anyway, as guys are told more and more how evil their god-given natures are, the more they'll want to spare the women from such disgusting behaviors. Hopefully the ladies can enjoy their cats.

Ever see an unattractive LDS woman married to a rich non-member?

DId not think so.

If given a choice many attractive LDS women, if given the opportunity, would choose a rich non-member to a poor priesthood holder.

Again though, there are plenty of LDS women who, like the real or made-up (or whatever), women in the article would freak out over the hubby looking at naughty stuff on the internet. There are a very significant number who would not. As it is pretty much a buyer's market out there for single LDS men to find single LDS women then it is up to the men to carefully ascertain what kind of woman they want to marry. Don't feel limited.

[Fiannan]

By the way djinwa, take comfort. I believe as many young women as men find articles like the one you posted from MormonWomen absurd. If you asked the average young woman what she is looking for in a man, and what would be a deal-stopper, few would list viewing porn occasionally on the list, in fact many would find it enticing.

Most young women use terms like "bad porn" and "good porn" (i.e. erotica) to describe the issue. Not many would want a guy who is hooked on the stuff, but they would not see occasional viewing in a negative sense, unless they are middle-aged Mormon women or blue-haired social justice warriors.

[Elizabeth]

Fiannan... it is absurd to apply these generalisations to Christians. Why pretend to be Christian if you are not... there is no common sense reason for anyone to do so.

[freedomforall]

Fiannan... it is absurd to apply these generalisations to Christians. Why pretend to be Christian if you are not... there is no common sense reason for anyone to do so.

Isn't it called getting information from the either the Enquirer, Dr Ruth or even The Kinsey Institute? Scriptures are only secondary because they jam up learning Godliness, virtue and in being pure in thought and action? For example. thread after thread on sex or something related to sex or gay people and their sexual habits, or why men view porn. Just where does God fit into all of this?