Skipping Release-Time Seminary = criminal activity

[brianj]

No thanks I want to go to the celestial kingdom. You may think that it's ok to knowingly send your children to go receive forced priestcraft. But I know there will be consequences for that decision. So no my kids won't attend.

Judgemental much?

Jack Monette wrote a book on the history of education and the lds church is a great read. It's called revealed educational principles.

You should understand Brigham young was promised by god that if we as a people followed the same patterns as the people of Enoch followed that we would be like them. Close to exaltation.

He set up church run schools to fulfill that. The saints rejected that for the "education of the world" public schooling.

If church run schools are critical to salvation and, as you judged, any parent who doesn't home school or send their kids to a church run school will not qualify for the Celestial Kingdom, then where are the church run schools today? Do they have a single private secondary school run by the church in Utah? Is everybody who goes to a university other than one of the BYU campuses destined for hell? Why does the church encourage people to go to hell by attending other schools, even going to what I assume you would call the wicked extreme of setting up institutes of religion at many universities? And why would the church offer a seminary program for students at secular high schools if those students are condemned because they attend those schools?

Howard W Hunter was raised in Boise. I see no record of a church run secondary school in that city so I guess he doesn't deserve to be a general authority. President Monson went to West High School. Is it time to have him excommunicated? Elder Hales was born and raised in New York City, where the church has never had its own school Elder Holland went to Dixie High in St. George. Elder Bednar grew up in the Bay Area and his father wasn't even a church member! Elder Cook went to Logan High. Elder Christofferson went to a high school in New Jersey. Was there a church run school in Pocatello for Elder Anderson? Elder Rasband went to Olympus High, and neither President Eyring or President Uchtdorf were able to attend a church run high school.

It must be so hard for you to be in a church where so few of the leaders were home schooled or sent to a school that wasn't run by men who do not believe the gospel and are never going to the celestial kingdom!

“Moral values are being neglected and prayer expelled from public schools on the pretext that moral teaching belongs to religion. At the same time, atheism, the secular religion, is admitted to class, and our youngsters are proselyted to a conduct without morality... we are caught in a current so strong that unless we correct our course, civilization as we know it will surely be wrecked to pieces...The distance between the church and a world set on a course which we cannot follow will steadily increase.”
--Boyd K. Packer, (General Conference, April 1994)

And I'm choosing not to follow the direction of the world.

I hope more choose to as well.

GOOD! What Elder Packer described is exactly what should be taught in school! If you were running a private school I'm sure you would be really popular as you taught all the students who weren't LDS that they were going to hell.
The United States was founded by Christians, but not as a Christian country. Utah was founded by Mormons, but not as a Mormon state. The principle of freedom of religion, as enshrined in the 11th Article of Faith, dictates that we don't force our religion on others. Schools do not exist to teach morality. They exist to teach secular knowledge. Parents and churches exist to treat morality. Problems in the world aren't being caused or aggravated because of public schooling; they are being aggravated because parents are abdicating their responsibility to teach morality, and are not taking their kids to a church where they can learn morality, so the lessons are never taught.

Good luck with your kids. I worry that they will grow up so sheltered that they will have a really hard time and will fall when they discover just how sheltered they have been. I have seen it happen, but if you refuse to teach anything worldly in your home schooling you might not have to worry. When they know nothing about the antichrist teaching of science, and since algebra doesn't exist anywhere in scripture, they will have such bad SAT or ACT scores that they won't be going to a university.

[Ezra]

I don't worry. Because I know I'm doing as the lord and as our prophets have asked. By the tone of your reply I feel that the words of the prophets upset you. And I'm sorry if that's the case.

Those are there words. So don't point fingers at me for sharing them.

Your wrong about the separation of church and state. Our own prophets don't agree with you. Your wrong about what should be taught in schools our prophets don't agree with you.

But like I said. There is a reason many are called few chosen. And you can look at the education of the majority to find out exactly the problem. And like Anderson and packard the problems we face are due to that education that your defending.

2 nephi 28:14

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

Good luck with that precept of men edu. And if you disagree with what the scriptures and prophets have said take it up with god or them. You can twist and turn and justify all you want. But Their words are true. It's not wise to ignore them.

I still very much recommend that book from jack monette. It will help you better understand why the prophets have said what they did.

I have shared only a small portion of the quotes I have from our prophets on education. I have pages and pages of quotes. I feel that what I have shared has done nothing but upset you so at this point you need to do your own due diligence and really study this topic for yourself. As I don't need your aggression pointed at me.

I have had friends who have tryed to warn other lds people about what the prophets have said about public schooling only to have them mad and call CPS on them because of their hurt pride. I have had others on this forum threaten the same thing to me for sharing quotes.

I have found that none lds christians are generally more receptive to the knowledge of corruption being taught in public schools then most lds people are. Makes no sense. We have scriptures and prophets that warn of it. But yet almost all disregard it.


Oh and a little statistics for you.

85% of the educational elite come from the 15% of students that are home, Christian and private schooled. The other 15% comes from the 85% of public schooled kids.

Not only that. But that pubic school edu costs on average $145,000 k-12 where the home,Christian and private school average $45,000 k-12.
So not only are the pubic schools turning out a lower quality education. It costs much much more for it.
Each generation of public schooled kids score lower on the sat test then their parents did. While the opposite is the case in home,Christian and private schooling.

You really should study this In more details befor making comments about poor performance. I guess you can blame your education.

[brianj]

I don't worry. Because I know I'm doing as the lord and as our prophets have asked. By the tone of your reply I feel that the words of the prophets upset you. And I'm sorry if that's the case.

You misunderstand my tone. I am not upset by the words of the prophets; I am upset by the attitudes of certain individuals.

Your wrong about the separation of church and state. Our own prophets don't agree with you. Your wrong about what should be taught in schools our prophets don't agree with you.

And that's what you are teaching your kids. A properly educated teacher would know the difference between your and you're.
The church members I have known who home school do a great job teaching the subjects they know well, but they tend to avoid the subjects they don't know so well. This leads to students who are poorly educated.

If you think there are statements from our prophets that freedom of religion should be abridged, that government should closely follow our religion and no other, then please point those statements out to me. It seems really odd that the church would fight so hard for religious freedom.

Here's quote from chapter 14 of the Joseph F Smith manual that contradicts your position:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds to the doctrine of the separation of church and state; the non-interference of church authority in political matters; and the absolute freedom and independence of the individual in the performance of his political duties. If at any time there has been conduct at variance with this doctrine, it has been in violation of the well-settled principles and policy of the Church.

We declare that from principle and policy, we favor: The absolute separation of church and state; No domination of the state by the church; No church interference with the functions of the state; No state interference with the functions of the church, or with the free exercise of religion; The absolute freedom of the individual from the domination of ecclesiastical authority in political affairs; The equality of all churches before the law.

Oh and a little statistics for you.

85% of the educational elite come from the 15% of students that are home, Christian and private schooled. The other 15% comes from the 85% of public schooled kids.

Reread what you wrote, skipping the grammatically incorrect first sentence. 85% of a group comes from 15% of the membership is a sensible statement, though poorly worded. Then you mention the other 15%. What other 15%?

Not only that. But that pubic school edu costs on average $145,000 k-12 where the home,Christian and private school average $45,000 k-12.
So not only are the pubic schools turning out a lower quality education. It costs much much more for it.
Each generation of public schooled kids score lower on the sat test then their parents did. While the opposite is the case in home,Christian and private schooling.

"Not only that [COMMA, NOT PERIOD!] but..." Where did you learn grammar?
What do you mean? Are those numbers supposed to be per year or over the 13 years of a K-12 education? According to the US Census Bureau, in FY 2013 the national average spending per student in public school was $10,700. Over 13 years that would come to $139,100. If your $45,000 number represents the cost of 13 years of education, that's $3,461.54 per year. According to the Council for American Private Education, the average private school tuition in 2011-2012 for all private schools was $10,740. Catholic schools were the cheapest, averaging $6,890, and secular private schools had the highest average at $21,510. But an average of $10,740 means the average private school student costs more than the average public school student.

You really should study this In more details befor making comments about poor performance. I guess you can blame your education.

I "really should study this in more details befor making comments about poor performance?" I know that in your sentence detail isn't plural, before has an e at the end, and I know the difference between your and you're. At least you chose the correct word at the end of your post. But that doesn't make up for the failure of writing a fragment as the second sentence of your post.

Per pupil cost of public education: http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-re ... 15-98.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Average cost of private education: http://www.capenet.org/facts.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ezra]

I don't worry. Because I know I'm doing as the lord and as our prophets have asked. By the tone of your reply I feel that the words of the prophets upset you. And I'm sorry if that's the case.

You misunderstand my tone. I am not upset by the words of the prophets; I am upset by the attitudes of certain individuals.

Your wrong about the separation of church and state. Our own prophets don't agree with you. Your wrong about what should be taught in schools our prophets don't agree with you.

And that's what you are teaching your kids. A properly educated teacher would know the difference between your and you're.
The church members I have known who home school do a great job teaching the subjects they know well, but they tend to avoid the subjects they don't know so well. This leads to students who are poorly educated.

If you think there are statements from our prophets that freedom of religion should be abridged, that government should closely follow our religion and no other, then please point those statements out to me. It seems really odd that the church would fight so hard for religious freedom.

Here's quote from chapter 14 of the Joseph F Smith manual that contradicts your position:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds to the doctrine of the separation of church and state; the non-interference of church authority in political matters; and the absolute freedom and independence of the individual in the performance of his political duties. If at any time there has been conduct at variance with this doctrine, it has been in violation of the well-settled principles and policy of the Church.

We declare that from principle and policy, we favor: The absolute separation of church and state; No domination of the state by the church; No church interference with the functions of the state; No state interference with the functions of the church, or with the free exercise of religion; The absolute freedom of the individual from the domination of ecclesiastical authority in political affairs; The equality of all churches before the law.

Oh and a little statistics for you.

85% of the educational elite come from the 15% of students that are home, Christian and private schooled. The other 15% comes from the 85% of public schooled kids.

Reread what you wrote, skipping the grammatically incorrect first sentence. 85% of a group comes from 15% of the membership is a sensible statement, though poorly worded. Then you mention the other 15%. What other 15%?

Not only that. But that pubic school edu costs on average $145,000 k-12 where the home,Christian and private school average $45,000 k-12.
So not only are the pubic schools turning out a lower quality education. It costs much much more for it.
Each generation of public schooled kids score lower on the sat test then their parents did. While the opposite is the case in home,Christian and private schooling.

"Not only that [COMMA, NOT PERIOD!] but..." Where did you learn grammar?
What do you mean? Are those numbers supposed to be per year or over the 13 years of a K-12 education? According to the US Census Bureau, in FY 2013 the national average spending per student in public school was $10,700. Over 13 years that would come to $139,100. If your $45,000 number represents the cost of 13 years of education, that's $3,461.54 per year. According to the Council for American Private Education, the average private school tuition in 2011-2012 for all private schools was $10,740. Catholic schools were the cheapest, averaging $6,890, and secular private schools had the highest average at $21,510. But an average of $10,740 means the average private school student costs more than the average public school student.

You really should study this In more details befor making comments about poor performance. I guess you can blame your education.

I "really should study this in more details befor making comments about poor performance?" I know that in your sentence detail isn't plural, before has an e at the end, and I know the difference between your and you're. At least you chose the correct word at the end of your post. But that doesn't make up for the failure of writing a fragment as the second sentence of your post.

Per pupil cost of public education: http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-re ... 15-98.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Average cost of private education: http://www.capenet.org/facts.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

about 85% of all students in the USA are public schooled.
15% are private,Christian and home schooled.

From that 15% they produce 85% of the top students in the nation. The educational elite of this country. The cost of that education costs less then a third of the cost of public school on average. You need to average in the cost of home schooling not just private. But let's just use the info you have. 10% are private schooled. Which costs equal to public schools. And produces close to 80% of the educational elite. Still shows how horrible of a job that public schools are doing.


As far as your misconception on what the separation of church and state is.


Ezra Taft Benson said:
I support the doctrine of separation of church and state as (traditionally interpreted)to prohibit the establishment of an official national religion. But this does not mean that we should divorce government from any formal recognition of God. To do so strikes a potentially fatal blow at the concept of the divine origin of our rights, and unlocks the door for an easy entry of future tyranny. If Americans should ever come to believe that their rights and freedoms are instituted among men by politicians and bureaucrats, they will no longer carry the proud inheritance of their forefathers, but will grovel before their masters seeking favors and dispensations — a throwback to the feudal system of the Dark Ages.

( Source: Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson 609; from an address given at the LDS Business and Professional Men’s Association, Glendale, CA, 10 Nov 1970 )

As traditionally Interpreted.

Do you know what the traditional interpretation is?

That the government has no power over the freedom of religion delegated to the United States by the Constitution.

That there shall be no infringement on our freedoms of speech or infringement on freedom of religion.


You will not find anywhere in the constitution the phrase separation of church and state. It does not exist.


Where that statement came from was a letter from president Jefferson to the danbury Baptists

Gentlemen, – The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association give me the highest satisfaction. . . . Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association assurances of my high respect and esteem. [9]

A wall between church and the government. A separation From the government making restrictions to religion. Or to have a state sponcered religion.

Now the Supreme Court changed that in In 1947, in the case Everson v. Board of Education,

To mean that no religion will be taught in schools. That there should be a separation from God and schools.

Just as 2nephi 26:20 warned about being the stumbling block of the gentiles.

With God gone from our schools. The only religion being taught is atheism. So we now have a state sponsored religion. Atheism.

We now have no separation of church and state.

So yes the church agrees that there should be a separation of church and state as you quoted. Which the government is not following or doing. As it does have a state sponcered religion. Atheism.


All I have to type on is a iPhone. It's a small screen and I have big thumbs. I also don't care to spend my entire day proof reading or being on my iPhone. Your a smart person I would assume. You can figure it out. But if you feel the need to try to correct spelling and grammar be my guest. I have other things I choose to focus on.

I will leave you with words from a prophet

As a watchman on the tower, I feel to warn you that one of the chief means of misleading our youth and destroying the family is our educational institutions. There is more than one reason why the Church is advising our youth to attend schools close to their homes where institutes of religion are available. These parents can help expose some of the deception of men.
Today there are much worse things that can happen to a child than not getting a full education. In fact, some of the worst things have happened to our children while attending colleges led by administrators who wink at subversion and amorality. I would rather have my child exposed to smallpox, typhus fever, cholera, or other malignant and deadly diseases than to the degrading influence of a corrupt teacher. It is infinitely better to take chances with an ignorant but pure-minded teacher than with the greatest philosopher who is impure.
Pres. Ezra Taft Benson CR Oct 70

I agree with president benson. I also agree with president Taylor. And choose to educate my kids with a good wholesome and complete education that is not full of the crippling influence taught subversively in atheist public schools.

I had a few lds friends growing up that were home schooled. They graduated collage at 18 and are some of the most well rounded cool people I've met. I've also met non lds homeschooled kids that were really cool as well. I've also met some lds and non lds homeschooled kids that were weird. But their parents were weird. So I do understand a right and wrong way of doing thing with home schooling. If they are not allowed to be social of course they will be weird. But even if they were weird and make it to the celestial kingdom. Vs being socially acceptable and not making it.
I would rather my kids be thought of as weird by the world.

The social norm theses days is rap music tattoos and body piercing and horrible language.

I work with teens. Have so for 15 years. Ive seen frist hand where the socal norm is heading.

[JohnnyL]

I think this was about the email sent to parents, and I guess no one else said anything. If someone is skipping seminary, it might be a parent/ child religious issue. Have a sit-down with the VP. NOOOOOO. Let's make it a crime, yaaaay!!! Wow, go to court, pay a fine, become a juvie for skipping seminary. Utah, light of the land of the free...