Boys will be boys, except when they're girls

[David13]

Friends for Scouting supports the council as I understand.

Would not paying into FFS be a voice for this change?

Currently the Boy Scouts is the activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood program. It is an integral part of our religion. How do you revolt against the activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood program without rebelling against Church leaders and their desires? Friends for Scouting is being advertised and we are encouraged to contribute by the Bishop during sacrament meeting opening exercises and during opening exercises of Priesthood meetings. Yes, it is in principle a freewill donation, but it clearly is important to the leaders of the Church.

-Finrock

In our stake (very well off) Friends of Scouting is really driven home because the financial impact to the local council ensures clout in the decisions and influence.

Even at the height of the depression in '09 & '10, our stake re-doubled the fund raising to increase the leverage of the LDS faction.

Now that the gay thing has happened, we get one wave of the envelope from the pulpit at the start of the fund raising drive, and not another mention during the duration of the Friends of Scouting drive. Donations have collapsed in our neck of the woods...[/qu

Well, rightfully so. You want them to teach morality. They want to teach perversion.
dc

[pjbrownie]

Whenever the Scouting controversy rears it's head, it's funny to watch those that march to the Follow the Prophet no matter what mantra talk about going rogue. Lol.

[brianj]

As a leader in a unit sponsored by the LDS church you will not have to ... accept girls into the unit.

That is not true, according to the Deseret News article I posted on page 1 of this thread -

"Chief Scout Executive Michael Surbaugh said nothing about church-sponsored Scouting units being given a similar flexibility regarding the registration and participation of transgender youth."

No one knows at this point if that will change, so no one can say that units sponsored by the LDS Church will not have to accept girls into it. The exemption you're talking about, as of this moment, ONLY applies to the various units determining who their LEADERS can be, NOT whether they can decide for themselves to allow girls who are pretending to be boys in.

You obviously missed the statement from the church, which includes this sentence: "Boy Scouts has assured its religious chartering organizations that, as in the past, they will be able to organize their troops in a way fully consistent with their religious beliefs."

[inho]

It's only a matter of time and I'm sure the church already has a backup program to replace it.

I hear this claim of a backup program all the time but no one can tell me why, if that was indeed the case they have never seen fit to implement it in parts of the world where the church once use scouting, Australia for example.

The church already has the Duty to God. What more is needed?

[EmmaLee]

As a leader in a unit sponsored by the LDS church you will not have to ... accept girls into the unit.

That is not true, according to the Deseret News article I posted on page 1 of this thread -

"Chief Scout Executive Michael Surbaugh said nothing about church-sponsored Scouting units being given a similar flexibility regarding the registration and participation of transgender youth."

No one knows at this point if that will change, so no one can say that units sponsored by the LDS Church will not have to accept girls into it. The exemption you're talking about, as of this moment, ONLY applies to the various units determining who their LEADERS can be, NOT whether they can decide for themselves to allow girls who are pretending to be boys in.

You obviously missed the statement from the church, which includes this sentence: "Boy Scouts has assured its religious chartering organizations that, as in the past, they will be able to organize their troops in a way fully consistent with their religious beliefs."

No, I didn't miss it - I'm the one who posted it in this thread, lol. I also posted the statement by the BSA CEO, which contradicts the Church's 'newsroom' statement. It would be nice if they'd all get their stories straight. Hopefully, the BSA will allow the various religious troops to organize how they want - can't see that continuing on for long though.

[Todd]

...As a leader in a unit sponsored by the LDS church you will not have to accept a flaming homosexual who wants to be an assistant scoutmaster and share your tent, nor will you have to accept girls into the unit...

What about jamborees and other "mixed" scouting campouts? Would you concede that LDS youth will be camping next to girls, who checked the boy box on their enrollment form, at these national events? Do you think it is plausible that LDS youth will be taught and instructed at these national events by, as you put it, "flaming homosexuals"?

I'm really not convinced the church can insulate its youth from the wave of social changes rippling through the scouting program. Do you really believe the LGBQT community will be satisfied with letting the Church continue to discriminate against gay and transgender people in the scouting program?

[h_p]

You obviously missed the statement from the church, which includes this sentence: "Boy Scouts has assured its religious chartering organizations that, as in the past, they will be able to organize their troops in a way fully consistent with their religious beliefs."

I'm sure the Seacaucus troop in New Jersey that got crucified over this feels that assurance most warmly.

[inho]

While reading posts in this thread, I feel unsure if there is more uproar because people don't accept transgenderism or if people are concerned about boys and girls camping together.
When I was young, I had a hobby that took me to several campouts where boys and girls were mixed. I think we mostly slept in separate tents, but I'm not completely sure. I didn't realize it at that time that some would concider it to be an abomination.

[Todd]

While reading posts in this thread, I feel unsure if there is more uproar because people don't accept transgenderism or if people are concerned about boys and girls camping together.
When I was young, I had a hobby that took me to several campouts where boys and girls were mixed. I think we mostly slept in separate tents, but I'm not completely sure. I didn't realize it at that time that some would concider it to be an abomination.

The church already has a coed camp out program. It's call TREK. So no, boys and girls camping in different tents is not the problem or as you put it, an "abomination" as far as the church is concerned.

I think the problem is when boys and girls are sleeping together. In the same tent. Is it possible you might see an issue there? If not we don't have much common ground to discuss this.

[h_p]

This tweet seems appropriate for what's going on here:

[gkearney]

It's only a matter of time and I'm sure the church already has a backup program to replace it.

I hear this claim of a backup program all the time but no one can tell me why, if that was indeed the case they have never seen fit to implement it in parts of the world where the church once use scouting, Australia for example.

The church already has the Duty to God. What more is needed?

Duty to God is not an activity program and was never designed to be one. Rather it is a recognition program with, I would argue, a rather ill defined set of objectives and requirements. Indeed the young women's program is far better than Duty to God. Once, some time ago the Duty to God program had a clear set of goals and objectives, that is simply not the case any longer as I discovered when I attempted with my son to try and figure out just what was intended to be done in it.

At any rate Duty to God has no clear activity program with in it and activity is what the scouting program in the church is really all about. I watch a once thriving LDS scouting program in Australia be reduced to nothing and not really replaced with anything. IN my stake their the activity rate of young men dropped off to almost nothing at all. It was a shocking turn of events.

[brianj]

...As a leader in a unit sponsored by the LDS church you will not have to accept a flaming homosexual who wants to be an assistant scoutmaster and share your tent, nor will you have to accept girls into the unit...

What about jamborees and other "mixed" scouting campouts? Would you concede that LDS youth will be camping next to girls, who checked the boy box on their enrollment form, at these national events? Do you think it is plausible that LDS youth will be taught and instructed at these national events by, as you put it, "flaming homosexuals"?

I'm really not convinced the church can insulate its youth from the wave of social changes rippling through the scouting program. Do you really believe the LGBQT community will be satisfied with letting the Church continue to discriminate against gay and transgender people in the scouting program?

No, I will not concede that LDS youth will be camping next to girls at Jamborees or summer camps. Yes, there will probably be girls at those events, but they will not be sleeping in the same location as the LDS troops. They will be nearby but not in the very next tent.

And there's a big difference between letting a homoxesual individual teach a particular subject and having them be the day in, day out leader and role model for a troop. If a homosexual wants to teach archery, basketry, or chess, why should I have a problem with it? But if that person wants to be a role model for a troop every week, they are going to have a lot of opportunity to shape the boys into worldly individuals instead of upstanding Saints.

And no, leftists in general won't be satisfied until everything is their way. They they will see the consequences of what they want and they'll blame the people who kept things going for those consequences. During the campaign Hillary Clinton sad that churches will have to change their beliefs. When the LDS church lets everybody into the temples to do whatever they want inside, when the church teaches that nothing is a sin, and when the church directs sealers to perform ordinances for homosexuals, the liberals will be temporarily satisfied. But then they'll quickly resume the fight for female ordination and demand half the general authorities be replaced with women.

[brianj]

You obviously missed the statement from the church, which includes this sentence: "Boy Scouts has assured its religious chartering organizations that, as in the past, they will be able to organize their troops in a way fully consistent with their religious beliefs."

No, I didn't miss it - I'm the one who posted it in this thread, lol. I also posted the statement by the BSA CEO, which contradicts the Church's 'newsroom' statement. It would be nice if they'd all get their stories straight. Hopefully, the BSA will allow the various religious troops to organize how they want - can't see that continuing on for long though.[/quote]

The BSA CEO statement was made before the church statement. Though nobody here is privy to what really happened, and if someone was in the know they would be bound by a nondisclosure agreement, we can infer that Monday morning either a message was sent to churches that sponsor troops or a phone call was made between a church leader (or probably members of a committee) to the BSA CEO and in that call the BSA assured the church that they would be able to maintain their standards.

[Col. Flagg]

They just need to remove 'morally straight' from the Scout Oath and they're good. #-o

[h_p]

And change the name to BGTQSA :ymparty:

[Dlight]

To me I say we should abandon a portion of scouts, namely the organization. Yes kids can learn stuff, but every month I drive to the scout shop and pick up $100 or so in rewards badges and pins I can't help but feel like its a waste of money. It really adds up overtime. You can still teach skills and have campouts without buying all these rewards each month.

Scouts should be more about giving of time and service to the community, but it seems like the organization itself is built more around making money. In the end they cave to outside moral pressures and with each passing day becomes more and more afraid to take a stand for their beliefs.

[gkearney]

OK time for some information on Jamborees:

First off there are no LDS Jamboree troops. Jamboree troops are formed at the council level. This means that some Jamboree Troops would be mostly made up of LDS scouts, if they came from councils in Utah, Arizona, Idaho and so on but other LDS scouts from other parts of the country would be mixed in with other scouts.

Second there have been girls at Jamborees for quite some time now. There are many young women in the Venturing and Sea Scouting programs of the BSA and they have been going to Jamborees for years. In addition there are always scouts from overseas most of which are also in coed groups. The BSA is one of only three single gender scouting organizations left in the world and even the BSA has coed programs for Venturing and Sea Scouting and the new STEM Scout program.

Such groups at Jamborees are in coed troops, crews or ships and function within the rules set out for mixed camping by the BSA.

Further LDS scouts who might have occasions to attend a World Jamboree will be in a setting where fully half of those attending will be girls. Again I have not ever heard of this as being seen as anything dramatic at the World Jamborees I have attended. IF you have good rules and you follow them coed scouting is simply not an issue.

[Col. Flagg]

And change the name to BGTQSA :ymparty:

:))

[sandman45]

Im a scout leader... this plus the gay thing a year or 2 ago is really bothering me.. talked with wife and she agrees.. I will ask to be released because being a part of the scouting program is an organization that supports and teaches (by example) doctrines contrary to the gospel of jesus christ and contrary to the church..

Inasmuch as the Boy Scout program, as modified for use within the church, is an important tool in helping young men grow and develop, I think asking to be released is not a good move. As a leader in a unit sponsored by the LDS church you will not have to accept a flaming homosexual who wants to be an assistant scoutmaster and share your tent, nor will you have to accept girls into the unit.

The rising generation is one of the most important assets of the church. My favorite callings have been the ones working with the youth: Sunday School teacher, callings within the young men, even in an Elders quorum presidency because I was able to work with the Bishopric and Young Men presidency to get teachers and priests home teaching. When I read Alma, one of the most inspiring parts is the account of the sons of Helaman because I hope to have a hand in turning some boys into warriors with unshakable faith.

Be thankful that you get to help the boys of today become the Bishops of tomorrow. Do your best to help them and utilize the best parts of the Boy Scout program to help in that mission. It would be just as easy to dismiss using the internet to spread the gospel because there is so much porn on the net, yet the church has a very big presence online.

go back and read the sons of Helaman again... where in there does it say they joined the scout program that pushed babylonian propaganda and teachings and indoctrination?

We can easily teach young men life skills and important gospel doctrines without the scout (for profit) organization.. Found out that about 70% of the budget for scouts in my ward goes to buying the awards and supplies... one of the committee leaders said the paper they have to use for something cost 2-3$ a sheet? seriously? .. come on.. we dont need that crap..

[Col. Flagg]

Im a scout leader... this plus the gay thing a year or 2 ago is really bothering me.. talked with wife and she agrees.. I will ask to be released because being a part of the scouting program is an organization that supports and teaches (by example) doctrines contrary to the gospel of jesus christ and contrary to the church..

Inasmuch as the Boy Scout program, as modified for use within the church, is an important tool in helping young men grow and develop, I think asking to be released is not a good move. As a leader in a unit sponsored by the LDS church you will not have to accept a flaming homosexual who wants to be an assistant scoutmaster and share your tent, nor will you have to accept girls into the unit.

The rising generation is one of the most important assets of the church. My favorite callings have been the ones working with the youth: Sunday School teacher, callings within the young men, even in an Elders quorum presidency because I was able to work with the Bishopric and Young Men presidency to get teachers and priests home teaching. When I read Alma, one of the most inspiring parts is the account of the sons of Helaman because I hope to have a hand in turning some boys into warriors with unshakable faith.

Be thankful that you get to help the boys of today become the Bishops of tomorrow. Do your best to help them and utilize the best parts of the Boy Scout program to help in that mission. It would be just as easy to dismiss using the internet to spread the gospel because there is so much porn on the net, yet the church has a very big presence online.

go back and read the sons of Helaman again... where in there does it say they joined the scout program that pushed babylonian propaganda and teachings and indoctrination?

We can easily teach young men life skills and important gospel doctrines without the scout (for profit) organization.. Found out that about 70% of the budget for scouts in my ward goes to buying the awards and supplies... one of the committee leaders said the paper they have to use for something cost 2-3$ a sheet? seriously? .. come on.. we dont need that crap..

Not only that, the bureaucracy and red tape has gotten absurd to the point where it is easier to gain entrance into the Pentagon than to obtain a tour permit for a scout unit to travel on a camping trip or other outing. Our local scout shop in Orem is a joke too - a full scout uniform will only cost you about $125. And that's with a discount. I used to take pride in going door to door in our ward asking for donations to the scouting program until I learned how those atop the BSA are reaping obscene salaries - the guy at the very top makes $1.6 million... are you kidding me??? :ymsick: If these kings at the top gave up their million dollar lifestyles, there would be a lot more money for scouting functions!!! What hasn't become corrupted nowadays? X(

[brianj]

go back and read the sons of Helaman again... where in there does it say they joined the scout program that pushed babylonian propaganda and teachings and indoctrination?

Wow! You're right! Events that happened around 2,000 years before the Boy Scouts of America was founded don't involve that organization! Come to think of it, as I read the Book of Mormon I never see references to seminary, trek, young women's camp, or serving missions. Should I infer that you dissuade your children from participating in those activities?

Either the church is run by inspiration or it isn't. Either the leaders are relying on their own intellect or they are relying on inspiration to make policy decisions. Therefore, either the leaders of the church have been inspired to associate with the Boy Scouts of America and continue that association or they haven't been so inspired. Therefore I see a decision between supporting the decisions of the church leaders or denying they have divine authority to lead this church. By now it should be obvious what my position is.

[h_p]

If I still supported or affiliated with the BSA, I wouldn't know how to truthfully answer that temple recommend question without jeopardizing my recommend. How do you answer it?

[skmo]

If I still supported or affiliated with the BSA, I wouldn't know how to truthfully answer that temple recommend question without jeopardizing my recommend. How do you answer it?

Most people in my ward are still very active in scouting and it's still a big part of the activities of the young men, and it's not a problem. However, that's the beauty of some of these little farming communities hidden away in the mountains. Our world here has not really changed, while the larger one around us seems to be making a ridiculous hyperbole of its once greatness. If a precious little girly boy showed up at harvest time with a pretty pink parasol insisting a padded steering wheel be added to the tractor so he wouldn't chip his fingernail art, well, I can't say his reception would be something Christ would approve of, which is a shame, but he/she certainly wouldn't make the mistake of bringing progressive ideas again into places where people actually still value the properly established gender roles.

In any case, Boy Scouts of America is still BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA where I now live. When something happens to bring a change to that out here, I would imagine the support for the BSA here will wane.

[Ezra]

When I was in scouts my dad was our scout leader. I remember there being so much red tape that we regularly had unsanctioned events. At scouts we would plan and go on many camp out activities that weren't scout related.

It was fun.
Not scouts but the activities.

When my dad was released I stopped going to scouts. As did about 5 other boys my age in the ward. Most of the group. We just did our own thing. Had a great time and stayed out of trouble.

[EmmaLee]

If I still supported or affiliated with the BSA, I wouldn't know how to truthfully answer that temple recommend question without jeopardizing my recommend. How do you answer it?

When I got my recommend renewed a couple months ago, I asked our Bishop and stake president who, exactly, this question is referring to (this was before this latest BSA kerfuffle, but I've always been curious "who" these "groups and individuals" are, according to the Church). The Bishop laughed and said he had no idea, so I said, "How am I supposed to honestly answer that question then?" And he shrugged his shoulders and went on to the next question. The stake president also chuckled when I asked him about it, but then he thought for a second, and said he "thinks" that question came about in the early days when the Church was trying to get away from various polygamous splinter groups, and that those groups are who that question is referring to. So I could honestly say, "no", I don't associate with (except for all the pro-polygamous people here on LDSFF /:) ) or support those people/groups. Had the 'transgender' thing with the BSA happened before my interview, I would have specifically asked about that, and can the Church itself even answer that question correctly.