Boys will be boys, except when they're girls

[Dlight]

To me I say we should abandon a portion of scouts, namely the organization. Yes kids can learn stuff, but every month I drive to the scout shop and pick up $100 or so in rewards badges and pins I can't help but feel like its a waste of money. It really adds up overtime. You can still teach skills and have campouts without buying all these rewards each month.

Scouts should be more about giving of time and service to the community, but it seems like the organization itself is built more around making money. In the end they cave to outside moral pressures and with each passing day becomes more and more afraid to take a stand for their beliefs.

[gkearney]

OK time for some information on Jamborees:

First off there are no LDS Jamboree troops. Jamboree troops are formed at the council level. This means that some Jamboree Troops would be mostly made up of LDS scouts, if they came from councils in Utah, Arizona, Idaho and so on but other LDS scouts from other parts of the country would be mixed in with other scouts.

Second there have been girls at Jamborees for quite some time now. There are many young women in the Venturing and Sea Scouting programs of the BSA and they have been going to Jamborees for years. In addition there are always scouts from overseas most of which are also in coed groups. The BSA is one of only three single gender scouting organizations left in the world and even the BSA has coed programs for Venturing and Sea Scouting and the new STEM Scout program.

Such groups at Jamborees are in coed troops, crews or ships and function within the rules set out for mixed camping by the BSA.

Further LDS scouts who might have occasions to attend a World Jamboree will be in a setting where fully half of those attending will be girls. Again I have not ever heard of this as being seen as anything dramatic at the World Jamborees I have attended. IF you have good rules and you follow them coed scouting is simply not an issue.

[Col. Flagg]

And change the name to BGTQSA :ymparty:

:))

[sandman45]

Im a scout leader... this plus the gay thing a year or 2 ago is really bothering me.. talked with wife and she agrees.. I will ask to be released because being a part of the scouting program is an organization that supports and teaches (by example) doctrines contrary to the gospel of jesus christ and contrary to the church..

Inasmuch as the Boy Scout program, as modified for use within the church, is an important tool in helping young men grow and develop, I think asking to be released is not a good move. As a leader in a unit sponsored by the LDS church you will not have to accept a flaming homosexual who wants to be an assistant scoutmaster and share your tent, nor will you have to accept girls into the unit.

The rising generation is one of the most important assets of the church. My favorite callings have been the ones working with the youth: Sunday School teacher, callings within the young men, even in an Elders quorum presidency because I was able to work with the Bishopric and Young Men presidency to get teachers and priests home teaching. When I read Alma, one of the most inspiring parts is the account of the sons of Helaman because I hope to have a hand in turning some boys into warriors with unshakable faith.

Be thankful that you get to help the boys of today become the Bishops of tomorrow. Do your best to help them and utilize the best parts of the Boy Scout program to help in that mission. It would be just as easy to dismiss using the internet to spread the gospel because there is so much porn on the net, yet the church has a very big presence online.

go back and read the sons of Helaman again... where in there does it say they joined the scout program that pushed babylonian propaganda and teachings and indoctrination?

We can easily teach young men life skills and important gospel doctrines without the scout (for profit) organization.. Found out that about 70% of the budget for scouts in my ward goes to buying the awards and supplies... one of the committee leaders said the paper they have to use for something cost 2-3$ a sheet? seriously? .. come on.. we dont need that crap..

[Col. Flagg]

Im a scout leader... this plus the gay thing a year or 2 ago is really bothering me.. talked with wife and she agrees.. I will ask to be released because being a part of the scouting program is an organization that supports and teaches (by example) doctrines contrary to the gospel of jesus christ and contrary to the church..

Inasmuch as the Boy Scout program, as modified for use within the church, is an important tool in helping young men grow and develop, I think asking to be released is not a good move. As a leader in a unit sponsored by the LDS church you will not have to accept a flaming homosexual who wants to be an assistant scoutmaster and share your tent, nor will you have to accept girls into the unit.

The rising generation is one of the most important assets of the church. My favorite callings have been the ones working with the youth: Sunday School teacher, callings within the young men, even in an Elders quorum presidency because I was able to work with the Bishopric and Young Men presidency to get teachers and priests home teaching. When I read Alma, one of the most inspiring parts is the account of the sons of Helaman because I hope to have a hand in turning some boys into warriors with unshakable faith.

Be thankful that you get to help the boys of today become the Bishops of tomorrow. Do your best to help them and utilize the best parts of the Boy Scout program to help in that mission. It would be just as easy to dismiss using the internet to spread the gospel because there is so much porn on the net, yet the church has a very big presence online.

go back and read the sons of Helaman again... where in there does it say they joined the scout program that pushed babylonian propaganda and teachings and indoctrination?

We can easily teach young men life skills and important gospel doctrines without the scout (for profit) organization.. Found out that about 70% of the budget for scouts in my ward goes to buying the awards and supplies... one of the committee leaders said the paper they have to use for something cost 2-3$ a sheet? seriously? .. come on.. we dont need that crap..

Not only that, the bureaucracy and red tape has gotten absurd to the point where it is easier to gain entrance into the Pentagon than to obtain a tour permit for a scout unit to travel on a camping trip or other outing. Our local scout shop in Orem is a joke too - a full scout uniform will only cost you about $125. And that's with a discount. I used to take pride in going door to door in our ward asking for donations to the scouting program until I learned how those atop the BSA are reaping obscene salaries - the guy at the very top makes $1.6 million... are you kidding me??? :ymsick: If these kings at the top gave up their million dollar lifestyles, there would be a lot more money for scouting functions!!! What hasn't become corrupted nowadays? X(

[brianj]

go back and read the sons of Helaman again... where in there does it say they joined the scout program that pushed babylonian propaganda and teachings and indoctrination?

Wow! You're right! Events that happened around 2,000 years before the Boy Scouts of America was founded don't involve that organization! Come to think of it, as I read the Book of Mormon I never see references to seminary, trek, young women's camp, or serving missions. Should I infer that you dissuade your children from participating in those activities?

Either the church is run by inspiration or it isn't. Either the leaders are relying on their own intellect or they are relying on inspiration to make policy decisions. Therefore, either the leaders of the church have been inspired to associate with the Boy Scouts of America and continue that association or they haven't been so inspired. Therefore I see a decision between supporting the decisions of the church leaders or denying they have divine authority to lead this church. By now it should be obvious what my position is.

[h_p]

If I still supported or affiliated with the BSA, I wouldn't know how to truthfully answer that temple recommend question without jeopardizing my recommend. How do you answer it?

[skmo]

If I still supported or affiliated with the BSA, I wouldn't know how to truthfully answer that temple recommend question without jeopardizing my recommend. How do you answer it?

Most people in my ward are still very active in scouting and it's still a big part of the activities of the young men, and it's not a problem. However, that's the beauty of some of these little farming communities hidden away in the mountains. Our world here has not really changed, while the larger one around us seems to be making a ridiculous hyperbole of its once greatness. If a precious little girly boy showed up at harvest time with a pretty pink parasol insisting a padded steering wheel be added to the tractor so he wouldn't chip his fingernail art, well, I can't say his reception would be something Christ would approve of, which is a shame, but he/she certainly wouldn't make the mistake of bringing progressive ideas again into places where people actually still value the properly established gender roles.

In any case, Boy Scouts of America is still BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA where I now live. When something happens to bring a change to that out here, I would imagine the support for the BSA here will wane.

[Ezra]

When I was in scouts my dad was our scout leader. I remember there being so much red tape that we regularly had unsanctioned events. At scouts we would plan and go on many camp out activities that weren't scout related.

It was fun.
Not scouts but the activities.

When my dad was released I stopped going to scouts. As did about 5 other boys my age in the ward. Most of the group. We just did our own thing. Had a great time and stayed out of trouble.

[EmmaLee]

If I still supported or affiliated with the BSA, I wouldn't know how to truthfully answer that temple recommend question without jeopardizing my recommend. How do you answer it?

When I got my recommend renewed a couple months ago, I asked our Bishop and stake president who, exactly, this question is referring to (this was before this latest BSA kerfuffle, but I've always been curious "who" these "groups and individuals" are, according to the Church). The Bishop laughed and said he had no idea, so I said, "How am I supposed to honestly answer that question then?" And he shrugged his shoulders and went on to the next question. The stake president also chuckled when I asked him about it, but then he thought for a second, and said he "thinks" that question came about in the early days when the Church was trying to get away from various polygamous splinter groups, and that those groups are who that question is referring to. So I could honestly say, "no", I don't associate with (except for all the pro-polygamous people here on LDSFF /:) ) or support those people/groups. Had the 'transgender' thing with the BSA happened before my interview, I would have specifically asked about that, and can the Church itself even answer that question correctly.

[rewcox]

If I still supported or affiliated with the BSA, I wouldn't know how to truthfully answer that temple recommend question without jeopardizing my recommend. How do you answer it?

When I got my recommend renewed a couple months ago, I asked our Bishop and stake president who, exactly, this question is referring to (this was before this latest BSA kerfuffle, but I've always been curious "who" these "groups and individuals" are, according to the Church). The Bishop laughed and said he had no idea, so I said, "How am I supposed to honestly answer that question then?" And he shrugged his shoulders and went on to the next question. The stake president also chuckled when I asked him about it, but then he thought for a second, and said he "thinks" that question came about in the early days when the Church was trying to get away from various polygamous splinter groups, and that those groups are who that question is referring to. So I could honestly say, "no", I don't associate with (except for all the pro-polygamous people here on LDSFF /:) ) or support those people/groups. Had the 'transgender' thing with the BSA happened before my interview, I would have specifically asked about that, and can the Church itself even answer that question correctly.

At this time, I would think that the Remnant group would qualify, since they oppose the Church and current leadership. And 7 women have to approve getting the priesthood.

[Sunain]

Now there is a push to let normal girls, not just transgendered, into the Boy Scouts. When will the church just do their own Aaronic Priesthood program in the United States and be done with scouting?

Boy Scouts face renewed push to let girls join the ranks
By David Crary Associated Press Published: Feb. 9, 2017

After many years of divisiveness, the Boy Scouts of America have opened their ranks to gay and transgender boys. Yet a different membership dispute persists: a long-shot campaign to let girls join the BSA so they have a chance to earn the prestigious status of Eagle Scout.

Just last week, after the BSA announced it would admit transgender boys, the National Organization for Women issued a statement urging the 106-year-old youth organization to allow girls to join as well. NOW said it was inspired by the efforts of a 15-year-old New York City girl to emulate her older brother, who is an Eagle Scout.

"Women can now hold all combat roles in the military, and women have broken many glass ceilings at the top levels of government, business, academia and entertainment," said NOW President Terry O'Neill. "It's long past due that girls have equal opportunities in Scouting."

For now, it appears the Boy Scouts will hold firm. Communications director Effie Delimarkos noted that the BSA already has some coed programs and might consider more of them, but views boys-only programs as a fundamental cornerstone of its mission.

"We're certainly committed to finding program options that work for the entire family — it's an area we continue to evaluate," Delimarkos said. "But we also feel that the benefit of a single-gender program is an important priority."

The goal of coeducating the Boy Scouts has a long history.

In 1995, a lawsuit was filed on behalf of a California girl, Katrina Yeaw, accusing the BSA of discrimination for rejecting her application to join. The case reached the California Supreme Court, which upheld the BSA's right to set its own membership criteria. In 2015, a group of girls in Northern California formed an independent troop called the Unicorns and unsuccessfully applied to affiliate with the BSA.

More recently, New York City teen Sydney Ireland, supported by her father, attorney Gary Ireland, has been campaigning to join the Boy Scouts, which her brother, Bryan, has belonged to for a decade.

Among other initiatives, Sydney has posted a petition on Change.org and appeared in an online video that has attracted more than 2.6 million views. Via repeated road trips to London, Ontario, she's also become a member of Scouts Canada, which has been coed since 1998.

For several years, Sydney has been an unofficial member of her brother's troop in Manhattan, participating in many of its activities but unable to earn merit badges to start on the path to Eagle rank.

"Everybody in Troop 414 has been completely positive," Sydney said in an interview. "They've never questioned why I want to be part of it — they know how great an organization it is."

Sydney says her quest to join the Boy Scouts doesn't reflect any disrespect of the Girl Scouts, which is independent of the BSA and has remained girls-only since its founding in 1912.

"The Girl Scouts is great for some people," she said. "But the Boy Scouts should allow everyone in. I want that kind of experience."

In her Change.org petition, which has more than 6,400 supporters, Sydney alludes to the prestige of the Eagle Scout rank — literally a badge of honor for many astronauts, political leaders and business executives. The BSA, on its web site, says the rank "has represented a milestone of accomplishment — perhaps without equal — that is recognized across the country and even the world."

"I am determined to be an Eagle Scout," Sydney declares. "It isn't just a hobby, it's access to some of the best leadership training there is."

The Girl Scouts, unsurprisingly, contend their Gold Award is comparable to the Eagle Badge in terms of a young person's achievement and civic mindedness.

"Employers look for the Gold Award on women's resumes," said Andrea Bastiani Archibald, a psychologist who helps oversee the Girl Scouts' national programming.

While the Boy Scouts have established several coed programs, including Venturing and Sea Scouts, the Girl Scouts remain girls-only.

"We know that girls learn best in an all-girl, girl-led environment," Bastiani Archibald said. "It's unfortunate that some people still consider belonging to a male membership organization superior to belonging to a female one."

Sonia Ossorio, president of the New York City branch of NOW, has a different perspective on the push to make the Boy Scouts coed.

"We feel the timing is right to be talking about this," she said. "In the climate of disrespect for women that we're living in, there's a huge value in bringing boys and girls together to work in teams, to learn about respect and compassion and leadership, like only Scouting can do."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7656 ... ranks.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[brianj]

If I still supported or affiliated with the BSA, I wouldn't know how to truthfully answer that temple recommend question without jeopardizing my recommend. How do you answer it?

I assume you men the question of do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any individual or group whose teachings or practices are contrary to church standards.
For a long time I would answer by saying that my family members beliefs and practices are contrary to church standards but I don't support any group opposing those standards. One day a member of a stake presidency told me that question is asking if I support apostate groups or individuals, or if I support those who are actively opposing the church. Since then I have answered that question negatively.

The BSA is still allowing the church to follow our own standards in our units and the church is continuing its support for the BSA. Therefore I don't believe that supporting the BSA jeopardizes your temple recommend.

[gkearney]

Now there is a push to let normal girls, not just transgendered, into the Boy Scouts. When will the church just do their own Aaronic Priesthood program in the United States and be done with scouting?

Oh, you means like the non existent "Aaronic Priesthood program" they have in other countries?

I have a good deal of experience with coed scouting programs. Most of the world has coed scouting now. In fact the U.S. is one of only three national scouting programs without it and even here Venturing, Sea Scouting and the new STEM Scouts program is coed. I have been a scout leader in Scout Australia which has been coed for 30 years now. Coed scouting is no more of a problem than coed schools, Sunday school classes or any other program where we mix the genders.

I often hear church members react in shock at the prospect of coed scouting and the camping that it would entail. As if our youth are unable to control themselves sexually once they put on a scout uniform. Now I am not nieve about teenagers and sex, I was a teenager once. I know that if a couple of kids are hell bent on having sex they will have it and there is almost nothing anyone can do about it. But I can also say that the last place a couple of kids are going to have sex is on a scout campout with 30 of their mate running about.

As a scout leader of a coed group I can tell you that if your follow the rules, all of them, and run the program the way it is intended and that mean some frank talk sometimes, you will not have a problem. For example in Scouts Australia we had the following policies:

1. No mixed genders in the tents. Ever. This included married couples who were leaders or in the Rover program (young adults 18-26). There is a time and place for sex and scout outing are neither the time or place. I would suppose that if we had a transgender scout we would have them tent as a single, we had scout that just preferred that anyway.

2. The "three meter rule" this rule said that the tents of boys and girls, men and woman must be three meters apart from one another. As an added point we put leaders between the tent effectively making it a six meter rule at times.

3. Watch standing as we called it in Sea Scouts other groups had other names for it. This rule means that there is an adult leader awake at all times overnight. This is a really good rule not only for holding teenage hormones in check but for general safety as well. The BSA needs to implement this.

4. In mixed groups there will always be a male and female leader with the group. In my case I took my wife, and no we did not share a tent, see point one above. In larger groups we had several adults and Rovers with the group.

I think coed scouting is a good thing each group boys and girls bring something to the table the other does not.In Australia boys of scout age left to themselves become rather "randy" and start using band language and so on. There not bad really they are just young boys. But put a girl or two in that group and those bad habits vanish, the girls take the edge off the boys. The boys on the other hand encourage the girls to try things they might now otherwise do when left in a girls only group. I have seen the smallest and shyest of girls step up and take on leadership and other activities just because the boys encouraged her to do so.

So yes I am in favour of coed scouting programs. I have seen them work, I have had my own children in them. I have also, when l lived in Australia, saw just what happens to the young men in the church when there is no program. (Despite what you have heard there is no YM activity program outside of scouting in the U.S. and Canada and a handful of church scouting programs in South America, Argentina in particular.) YM activity rates in my stakes in Australia were abysmal. The same was the case in much of the Asia/Pacific area. You can complain all you like about the BSA and scouting in general, you can say that we could create something better, even though we never have. I will only believe it when I see it and frankly I have never seen it anywhere in the world where I have lived.(Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Japan, Malaysia and Sweden)

[Serragon]

I have been a YM president twice. I would always work w/ the YW leader to build a youth program that was split about 50/50 separate and combined activities. We had many unofficial co-ed scouting activities including over nighters. We would also start each mutual activity, even if we would later separate, combined for 15 minutes for games and a short but powerful spiritual message. The youth absolutely loved it.

If we think about our youth program as training them to be the men and women the Lord would have them be, then teaching them to interract with the opposite sex in the appropriate way is one of the greatest things we can do. This can't be done in isolation.

[Sirocco]

And change the name to BGTQSA :ymparty:

You forgot all the other letters like AARP2QQTZZZ (silent 5) or whatever :))

[sandman45]

Either the leaders are relying on their own intellect or they are relying on inspiration to make policy decisions.

Thats the problem right there... own intellect to make policies..

what we need is a real revelation revealed from God to a revelator and have it published in our scriptures...

policy != revelation