What are our Divine Gender Roles and How can Men and Women Respect Each Other?

[butterfly]

I really struggle with motherhood. Growing up, I couldn't wait to have my own babies. Now that I have them I feel like a failure on a daily basis. I hear a lot of sincere compliments from others saying that I'm a great mom, but most days I feel lost.

If I had a career, I could work and be very successful. Having a career would be nothing compared to motherhood- a career would be a breeze. My husband even seriously recommended that I go back to work because I really enjoyed my job before I left it. But I knew that going back to work wouldn't teach me the things I need to be learning.

Of course I love my babies and I'd do anything for them, but it is hard...really hard.
And granted, we don't really have any outside help and my husband and I average a date 2 times per year and hardly ever get to see each other during the week. But...we make it work.

YOu'd do anything for your babies? Would you be strict with them, hold them to a schedule, teach them, etc.?

Well I do homeschooling and they all have morning chores and afternoon chores, those are in addition to cleaning up and helping with the baby

I know some mothers who are worn out because they love the drama their children bring (to their boring lives?).

Lol, maybe some moms do this, but not me. I try to avoid drama at all costs. I have a million different interests and enjoy learning practically anything new. Boredom is not something I suffer from

They "lOOOve them too much" to tell them it's not right to wear six outfits a day (cleanup, cleanup, laundry, laundry, laundry), much more hold them to it, then sit around and complain about and hate laundry, for example. Or they COOK lunch and dinner, but the kids often take a bite or two, then leave. (And guess what happens to the money...??)

I prepare most of our meals from scratch, all day, everyday. I don't think it's healthy to eat out of a box or a can. My kids like the food for the most part and we have minimal waste. I know what they like and as long as it's healthy, I'll make it

Since they're so tired doing endless laundry and cooking wasted meals, they don't have time for their children, so they sit them in front of the tv. That's ok, because it gives them time to text their friends and post on FB about how lonely their lives are (ironic, eh?).

I don't like fb. I don't even know how to post on fb. This forum has been a great opportunity to grow in my understanding of the gospel. If you ever note the time I'm on the forum, its usually between the hours of 11:30pm and 2am. That's because I'm up trying to put a child back to sleep and I struggle with going straight to sleep afterwards. But reading helps and I find the forum to be uplifting and relaxing.

In addition, we don't have TV channels. The kids do have some movies they can watch, but usually they've got school, chores, or they're playing outside.

So, what are you supposed to be learning? What are you supposed to be having them learn?

How to be loving, Christ- like people

I knew my wife would be healthier with work (she wouldn't do all those good things for herself, and friends weren't close by much), so she worked part-time (school hours) "outside" when the children were in junior high.

"I expect you to ask me out once a month; out means out; to arrange a babysitter from this list; to plan an activity, or an activity in addition to dinner. If you don't, it will add up." ?

What is this ^^^^ from?
My husband and I don't go out more than 2x/ yr because we don't have babysitters. Extended family will chip in is 2x/ yr. We've tried the youth in our stake and repeatedly we've had issues. I don't know if it's just our area, but the youth are pretty immature and irresponsible. Plus, babysitters are expensive. Even though my husband and I don't have to spend a dime to enjoy a date together, babysitters do cost money.

So I'm not complaining about motherhood because I'm lonely or bored. I'm saying that I do my absolute best and am exhausted. A full- time job is nowhere near the amount of time and energy I put into being a mom and a wife. I honestly don't understand how other moms do this. And it's not like there's any immediate compensation or review letting you know if you're doing things correctly. There's usually at least 1 kid who's mad at you. You don't get a paycheck that says "hey, your child vomited all over you last night, so we're paying you overtime." I have no way of knowing if in 20 yrs my child will be resentful for something I messed up today.
So I feel lost. Am I doing a good job? I have no idea. Am I trying my best? Definitely. Is my best good enough? I guess I'll find out in 20 years ;)

Thanks for your advice. Are you of the opinion that motherhood just comes naturally and is wonderful and easy as long as you do it right? Because that's what they told me in young women's.

However one sister I respect told me that for those who do it right, motherhood is actually really difficult.

[Fiannan]

I just want to add another insight I have found, and I hope I don't break any rules here. But I have found that men are very affectionate before intimacy, but afterwards, they move on. They are back to business as usual after their physical needs are met. But Women are the opposite. After her physical needs are met, her desire for physical affection is still strong. So, say the next day, the wife will give a hug or a kind affectionate kiss and her husband is out the door thinking about his work day, and then he comes home and it is more business as usual. His mind is on different things than his wife. He may even show aggravation toward her if she gives advice on how to change the light bulb, because affection is just not on his mind.

By day 2, the wife is done seeking the physical affection, right about time the husband is ready for it again. And so now, he wants to be physically affectionate and start the wooing process, but she has kind of given up because the last several attempts at a hug, a kind word or eye contact have not been reciprocated. But now, he is back to being affectionate and willing to listen to her light bulb advice, because now he has his needs for physical affection back on his mind.

If a man can learn to be emotionally affectionate even when his physical needs have been met, that could be helpful. Men switch on and off like light bulbs, but women always stay on dimmer switch, so, the things guys do when they are off can really hurt their wives, who are still on dimmer.

I mean, these are little things, but sometimes they do add up.

Ironically, there are reversals of this as well in which a woman wants sex but afterwards wants to get other things done rather than snuggling or whatever.

I will also note that if a woman wants her man to be more religious then affection is the answer. Interesting, I just remembered a quote from Brigham Young in which he said there would be no wars in the world if women were universally kind and affectionate to their husbands. Anyway, back to the point, men usually produce low levels of oxytocin, it is the bonding chemical that women produce in much higher levels. It has also been associated with enhancing the desire to bond, so to speak, with aspects of higher power (religious ideals). So yes, men who have sex tend to be more attuned to spirituality afterwards. This could explain why women tend to be more easily connected to religion as women are biologically programed to want to form connections around them while men, who generally have higher testosterone, are more warrior oriented.

[passionflower]

"We often think of women being inferior to men but it's just a show. Men are very sensitive creatures and are incredibly vulnerable to women. Men are nearly controlled by women just because she is female. There will be many many women who will need to repent after they realize how they themselves have used men or a husband incorrectly." - Melissa

I like this comment because that is not a perspective you hear about but it is right on. It would be nice if women knew their power as women and how to respect it instead of be embarrassed by it. And the rest of what you say is very good advice. It would be nice to publish information like this because it had gems that you don't find elsewhere.

I picked up on this comment about "control", too. In this world today, control issues among women are HUGE, are definately alive and well in the women of the church, and I would dare to say this is the leading cause of divorce.

A while back I read an article by an LDS marraige counseling couple, who, in this article, totally sympathized with a friend of theirs as she complained to them about her husband. The article was basically a list of his faults and her virtues that went like this: She made him three meals a day, gave him a back massage every night, picked up after him, worked part time, managed the money, paid the bills, and yet their date nights were totally unromantic things he just wanted to do, and she felt completely unappreciated and unloved. This marraige counseling couple went on about how awful her husband was, and that he just really needed to change his ways right now or else! The article ends with the husband humbly coming home from Priesthood meeting where he was told to ask his wife to list all his faults so he could become a "better" husband. And supposedly they lived happily ever after, ha ha !

These marraige counselours acted like this was a very common problem and they see it every day. With the kind of solution they put forward here, no wnder we have so many divorces.

I brought this article up to my bishop when he called me in to advise him because he was overwhelmed with all the women's problems he was dealing with on a one to one basis, and had a good laugh over why we should really just shoot all the marraige counselors out there.

The husband up there was faithful and active in the church, a dutiful Priesthood holder with a solid testimony and just an all around good man. He was a professional businessman, a reasonably attentive father, and was otherwise very responsible. Yet his wife was made out to be his victim.
I brought up this article to my bishop when he called me in to advise him over what to do with all the complaining women he dealt with every week. He was really overwhelmed. The first thing I told my Bishop was " So what does she want him to appreciate her for? That's she is a better man than he is?"

Then I proceeded to state that the real solution for this lady was to completely let go and stop trying to control her husband. After all, what was the real reason she worked a part time job, managed the money, picked up his clothes, did the nightly backrubs, and made three meals a day? Because she felt "in control" when she did. Like the woman in the article, many of these women try very hard to hide their controlling natures by labeling it as self sacrifice, but this just isn't so.


Then I told my bishop that this woman needs to be more in her feminine element, accepting and appreciative of the wonderful guy her husband really is, and more receptive to the many things he probably does for her every day ( or at least used to ), and then in a feminine way, start taking care of her own needs more, instead of demanding attention, etc, from him. If that means quitting the part time job and handing the money management over to him(like it or not), so be it. If you have to tell him the breakfast cereal is in the cupboard, and he gets dinner leftovers for lunch, most men will agree when they see their wife is happier ( most men really want their wife to be happy ). A woman will radiate a much more attractive feminine energy to her husband when she isn't trying to be his mother. Giving up control and becoming very receptive and accepting of the man she has, creates instant peace and opens up a lot more time for her own core feminine style self care, which I can practically guarantee will make her feel better than she has in years and years. It is exhausting to try and be something you are not, and women really aren't small men.

Women in Amish and Mennonite societies do not manifest the problems that constantly trouble women in this modern world. According to recent research, Amish and Mennonite women never ever are bothered with things like weight management, or any body image issues, depression, stress or social isolation,perfectionism, and don't get overwhelmed, feel unloved, unfulfilled, or the myriad of other complaints common to the today's woman. And they have a lot more time for fun. Their health, both mental and physical, is far better than women just outside their communities. I can say from personal knowledge that they are a happy lot of people, especially the kids.

And this is true, in spite of women there having to manage their households with no real modern conveniences, and bearing more children, a LOT more, than the rest of us. They are not educated past the 8th grade, I have seen where school was done simply and inexpensively without any bells or whistles in the basement of an Amish church but I would suspect that it is a superior education compared to our own High School grads of today.

So why do these women have such a higher quality of life than the other women in the very states their communities reside in? Well, that's easy. they have strict gender roles.

Excellent comments. Great post. So how can women stop being controlling and competitive and start being that feminine figure that is so important for a happy family? I am learning it has a lot to do with emotional health. I am learning to recognize what my needs are, meet them, and then do the same for my family. After all, what is the point of hard physical work if you can't enjoy the fruits of your labor? Someone has to look after her and her family's emotional well being so that life is joyful and worth living. If all she cares about is self sacrifice, she will have nothing left to give after a while. And when it is acceptable for the woman to take care of her needs, she will naturally be grateful for all the sacrifices her husband makes for her so that she can be happy on a daily basis.

You just have to stop giving so much if you feel like you, life, or your relationship is out of balance. It is hard for some women to say no, and we live in a marriage culture that says everyone deserves everything from their spouse.

I agree with passionflower, but we need to clarify that for many women who self-sacrifice and then expect their husbands to do the same, it is not about feeling in control of the husband, but is sometimes in response to the expectations the wife feels from the husband. The longer this cycle goes, of each having expectations for each other, and then showing disappointment towards each other, the more the wife especially will become manipulative - doing things but expecting something in return. The husband usually starts the marriage off thinking this way. Any disappointment he shows towards his wife, whether it is because of a messy house, cold meal, or disinterest in sex, signals to the woman that he expects something from her, and if she doesn't meet his expectations, she is going to feel less love from him. So the more passive woman responds by trying to do everything to please her man, and when she doesn't feel loved in return, she starts becoming more demanding to counter the demands she feels from him. The more head-strong woman will just stop giving, which causes the man to feel neglected, love her less, and then she feels justified in being mad at him, and the cycle goes on and on. If you feel your spouse's disappointment, you have to tell yourself that your spouse is being selfish, and you are not obligated to give anything unless a certain behavior has been agree upon to happen at or by a certain time. Set boundaries on your giving, like when you are too tired for example, but anytime you withhold giving, you have to give in other ways, and like passionflower said, be happy, in order to reassure your spouse that you are not withholding because of resentment or bitterness, but because one of your boundaries have been crossed - you have too much to do, you feel tired, you are not in the mood, whatever your boundary is, you have to reassure your spouse that you are not giving because of you, and not because how you feel towards your spouse.

Remember that I said up here that the Amish women did not have these types of problems as you describe up there. Neither did they fail to meet their husbands expectations. I have been in their homes and they are neat and orderly, the kids are neat and tidy, and the women are neat and tidy. So you see, there is no problem such as you describe in the first place. No need for boundaries, trading of favors, compromises or talking things out, as the marraige relationship flows more normally and harmoniously. Instead of trying to make things happen, a woman finds things she wants and needs flowing towards her without all this effort. This is because they are into their feminine nature, and I mean REALLY into it.

Believe it or not, a disorderly home is a sign of a controlling women. When our MO is control, we end up out of control every time.

[Melissa]

Why does cooking and cleaning and doing nice things for husband = controlling him? Isint that what men expect? And how women show they care and are thankful?

A woman is damned if she does and damned if she doesnt. She needs to apparently just go take care of her self and make herself feel good to radiate feminine vibes....and then she is called selfish and vain!

Why do women get such a bad wrap in this life? Seriously, men think they are unjustly picked on and such but reading the last few posts here, it seems women are being blamed and told they are doing it wrong by actually doing it (homemaking) as the men have wanted.

An chaotic home is the woman's fault for trying to be controlling? And where is the leader at? I can guarantee that if a woman's wishes were respected and carried out it would create more order not less. This is of course a woman who had the families best interest at heart.

Maybe I'm just naive to modern marriage but these posts seem weird to me.

[Sarah]

I picked up on this comment about "control", too. In this world today, control issues among women are HUGE, are definately alive and well in the women of the church, and I would dare to say this is the leading cause of divorce.

A while back I read an article by an LDS marraige counseling couple, who, in this article, totally sympathized with a friend of theirs as she complained to them about her husband. The article was basically a list of his faults and her virtues that went like this: She made him three meals a day, gave him a back massage every night, picked up after him, worked part time, managed the money, paid the bills, and yet their date nights were totally unromantic things he just wanted to do, and she felt completely unappreciated and unloved. This marraige counseling couple went on about how awful her husband was, and that he just really needed to change his ways right now or else! The article ends with the husband humbly coming home from Priesthood meeting where he was told to ask his wife to list all his faults so he could become a "better" husband. And supposedly they lived happily ever after, ha ha !

These marraige counselours acted like this was a very common problem and they see it every day. With the kind of solution they put forward here, no wnder we have so many divorces.

I brought this article up to my bishop when he called me in to advise him because he was overwhelmed with all the women's problems he was dealing with on a one to one basis, and had a good laugh over why we should really just shoot all the marraige counselors out there.

The husband up there was faithful and active in the church, a dutiful Priesthood holder with a solid testimony and just an all around good man. He was a professional businessman, a reasonably attentive father, and was otherwise very responsible. Yet his wife was made out to be his victim.
I brought up this article to my bishop when he called me in to advise him over what to do with all the complaining women he dealt with every week. He was really overwhelmed. The first thing I told my Bishop was " So what does she want him to appreciate her for? That's she is a better man than he is?"

Then I proceeded to state that the real solution for this lady was to completely let go and stop trying to control her husband. After all, what was the real reason she worked a part time job, managed the money, picked up his clothes, did the nightly backrubs, and made three meals a day? Because she felt "in control" when she did. Like the woman in the article, many of these women try very hard to hide their controlling natures by labeling it as self sacrifice, but this just isn't so.


Then I told my bishop that this woman needs to be more in her feminine element, accepting and appreciative of the wonderful guy her husband really is, and more receptive to the many things he probably does for her every day ( or at least used to ), and then in a feminine way, start taking care of her own needs more, instead of demanding attention, etc, from him. If that means quitting the part time job and handing the money management over to him(like it or not), so be it. If you have to tell him the breakfast cereal is in the cupboard, and he gets dinner leftovers for lunch, most men will agree when they see their wife is happier ( most men really want their wife to be happy ). A woman will radiate a much more attractive feminine energy to her husband when she isn't trying to be his mother. Giving up control and becoming very receptive and accepting of the man she has, creates instant peace and opens up a lot more time for her own core feminine style self care, which I can practically guarantee will make her feel better than she has in years and years. It is exhausting to try and be something you are not, and women really aren't small men.

Women in Amish and Mennonite societies do not manifest the problems that constantly trouble women in this modern world. According to recent research, Amish and Mennonite women never ever are bothered with things like weight management, or any body image issues, depression, stress or social isolation,perfectionism, and don't get overwhelmed, feel unloved, unfulfilled, or the myriad of other complaints common to the today's woman. And they have a lot more time for fun. Their health, both mental and physical, is far better than women just outside their communities. I can say from personal knowledge that they are a happy lot of people, especially the kids.

And this is true, in spite of women there having to manage their households with no real modern conveniences, and bearing more children, a LOT more, than the rest of us. They are not educated past the 8th grade, I have seen where school was done simply and inexpensively without any bells or whistles in the basement of an Amish church but I would suspect that it is a superior education compared to our own High School grads of today.

So why do these women have such a higher quality of life than the other women in the very states their communities reside in? Well, that's easy. they have strict gender roles.

Excellent comments. Great post. So how can women stop being controlling and competitive and start being that feminine figure that is so important for a happy family? I am learning it has a lot to do with emotional health. I am learning to recognize what my needs are, meet them, and then do the same for my family. After all, what is the point of hard physical work if you can't enjoy the fruits of your labor? Someone has to look after her and her family's emotional well being so that life is joyful and worth living. If all she cares about is self sacrifice, she will have nothing left to give after a while. And when it is acceptable for the woman to take care of her needs, she will naturally be grateful for all the sacrifices her husband makes for her so that she can be happy on a daily basis.

You just have to stop giving so much if you feel like you, life, or your relationship is out of balance. It is hard for some women to say no, and we live in a marriage culture that says everyone deserves everything from their spouse.

I agree with passionflower, but we need to clarify that for many women who self-sacrifice and then expect their husbands to do the same, it is not about feeling in control of the husband, but is sometimes in response to the expectations the wife feels from the husband. The longer this cycle goes, of each having expectations for each other, and then showing disappointment towards each other, the more the wife especially will become manipulative - doing things but expecting something in return. The husband usually starts the marriage off thinking this way. Any disappointment he shows towards his wife, whether it is because of a messy house, cold meal, or disinterest in sex, signals to the woman that he expects something from her, and if she doesn't meet his expectations, she is going to feel less love from him. So the more passive woman responds by trying to do everything to please her man, and when she doesn't feel loved in return, she starts becoming more demanding to counter the demands she feels from him. The more head-strong woman will just stop giving, which causes the man to feel neglected, love her less, and then she feels justified in being mad at him, and the cycle goes on and on. If you feel your spouse's disappointment, you have to tell yourself that your spouse is being selfish, and you are not obligated to give anything unless a certain behavior has been agree upon to happen at or by a certain time. Set boundaries on your giving, like when you are too tired for example, but anytime you withhold giving, you have to give in other ways, and like passionflower said, be happy, in order to reassure your spouse that you are not withholding because of resentment or bitterness, but because one of your boundaries have been crossed - you have too much to do, you feel tired, you are not in the mood, whatever your boundary is, you have to reassure your spouse that you are not giving because of you, and not because how you feel towards your spouse.

Remember that I said up here that the Amish women did not have these types of problems as you describe up there. Neither did they fail to meet their husbands expectations. I have been in their homes and they are neat and orderly, the kids are neat and tidy, and the women are neat and tidy. So you see, there is no problem such as you describe in the first place. No need for boundaries, trading of favors, compromises or talking things out, as the marraige relationship flows more normally and harmoniously. Instead of trying to make things happen, a woman finds things she wants and needs flowing towards her without all this effort. This is because they are into their feminine nature, and I mean REALLY into it.

Believe it or not, a disorderly home is a sign of a controlling women. When our MO is control, we end up out of control every time.

I think what you're saying is that being feminine is basically using all those great qualities, like persuasion, meekness, gentleness, love, kindness etc. and I would agree. The opposite is being controlling. Telling others what to do, expecting something from their husbands. But in the post you imply that it is okay that the husbands have expectations for the wives, and the wives should just meet those expectations. So is it okay to have expectations for your husband then, if it is okay for the husbands to have expectations for the wives? What expectations are reasonable? Is love really about doing what someone expects you to do, or is love about free-will giving. Expectations are fine as long as they are agreed upon and are specific. We can say as a couple that we agree that the husband will do his best to provide a house and food for the family, and the wife will forgo working to have children. The reward each get are the children. They each are blessed to become a mother and father in this exchange.

My point was that I think many women turn controlling, or have expectations for their husbands, in response to their husband's controlling nature and expectations. I imagine that in the Amish community, the Amish men are a lot less attuned to their own wants than the modern man. The Amish man has not been exposed to all the messages that women will always be excited to give you what you want. I'm sure there is less mentality of entitlement, less neediness, less laziness, no time watching sports, and the Amish men actually spend more time with their families. No wonder the Amish women are so happy!

[Sarah]

I should also clarify that boundaries on giving are going to be needed less with an unselfish person. Apparently Amish women have no boundaries on their giving. Do the the Amish men have boundaries, or do they give to their wives everything they want and need?

You have to look at your spouse as a child if he or she is acting selfishly, or in other words, wanting something from you at your expense. A child does this all the time. He has not learned to receive correctly, and reciprocate or give correctly out of love and respect for you. A child sometimes only gives if he is threatened with not getting what he wants. You have to teach the child to give and receive correctly, and giving into a child's demands only feeds into that child's sense of entitlement of receiving without having to give anything. There must be boundaries on giving with a child, and if your spouse is acting like a child, then put up some boundaries.

[passionflower]

Excellent comments. Great post. So how can women stop being controlling and competitive and start being that feminine figure that is so important for a happy family? I am learning it has a lot to do with emotional health. I am learning to recognize what my needs are, meet them, and then do the same for my family. After all, what is the point of hard physical work if you can't enjoy the fruits of your labor? Someone has to look after her and her family's emotional well being so that life is joyful and worth living. If all she cares about is self sacrifice, she will have nothing left to give after a while. And when it is acceptable for the woman to take care of her needs, she will naturally be grateful for all the sacrifices her husband makes for her so that she can be happy on a daily basis.

You just have to stop giving so much if you feel like you, life, or your relationship is out of balance. It is hard for some women to say no, and we live in a marriage culture that says everyone deserves everything from their spouse.

I agree with passionflower, but we need to clarify that for many women who self-sacrifice and then expect their husbands to do the same, it is not about feeling in control of the husband, but is sometimes in response to the expectations the wife feels from the husband. The longer this cycle goes, of each having expectations for each other, and then showing disappointment towards each other, the more the wife especially will become manipulative - doing things but expecting something in return. The husband usually starts the marriage off thinking this way. Any disappointment he shows towards his wife, whether it is because of a messy house, cold meal, or disinterest in sex, signals to the woman that he expects something from her, and if she doesn't meet his expectations, she is going to feel less love from him. So the more passive woman responds by trying to do everything to please her man, and when she doesn't feel loved in return, she starts becoming more demanding to counter the demands she feels from him. The more head-strong woman will just stop giving, which causes the man to feel neglected, love her less, and then she feels justified in being mad at him, and the cycle goes on and on. If you feel your spouse's disappointment, you have to tell yourself that your spouse is being selfish, and you are not obligated to give anything unless a certain behavior has been agree upon to happen at or by a certain time. Set boundaries on your giving, like when you are too tired for example, but anytime you withhold giving, you have to give in other ways, and like passionflower said, be happy, in order to reassure your spouse that you are not withholding because of resentment or bitterness, but because one of your boundaries have been crossed - you have too much to do, you feel tired, you are not in the mood, whatever your boundary is, you have to reassure your spouse that you are not giving because of you, and not because how you feel towards your spouse.

Remember that I said up here that the Amish women did not have these types of problems as you describe up there. Neither did they fail to meet their husbands expectations. I have been in their homes and they are neat and orderly, the kids are neat and tidy, and the women are neat and tidy. So you see, there is no problem such as you describe in the first place. No need for boundaries, trading of favors, compromises or talking things out, as the marraige relationship flows more normally and harmoniously. Instead of trying to make things happen, a woman finds things she wants and needs flowing towards her without all this effort. This is because they are into their feminine nature, and I mean REALLY into it.

Believe it or not, a disorderly home is a sign of a controlling women. When our MO is control, we end up out of control every time.

I think what you're saying is that being feminine is basically using all those great qualities, like persuasion, meekness, gentleness, love, kindness etc. and I would agree. The opposite is being controlling. Telling others what to do, expecting something from their husbands. But in the post you imply that it is okay that the husbands have expectations for the wives, and the wives should just meet those expectations. So is it okay to have expectations for your husband then, if it is okay for the husbands to have expectations for the wives? What expectations are reasonable? Is love really about doing what someone expects you to do, or is love about free-will giving. Expectations are fine as long as they are agreed upon and are specific. We can say as a couple that we agree that the husband will do his best to provide a house and food for the family, and the wife will forgo working to have children. The reward each get are the children. They each are blessed to become a mother and father in this exchange.

My point was that I think many women turn controlling, or have expectations for their husbands, in response to their husband's controlling nature and expectations. I imagine that in the Amish community, the Amish men are a lot less attuned to their own wants than the modern man. The Amish man has not been exposed to all the messages that women will always be excited to give you what you want. I'm sure there is less mentality of entitlement, less neediness, less laziness, no time watching sports, and the Amish men actually spend more time with their families. No wonder the Amish women are so happy!

Your post isn't really connecting with what I meant. I am not good at teaching or explaining, I know. Let's see what I can do to make what I said more clear (ha ha!)
First off, I definately agree with you that a wife has every reason to expect her husband will do his best to fulfill the role of provider. But that said, she doesn't have the right to expect a certain standard of living above and beyond providing the necessities and maybe a little bit more. To expect this is called "controlling". It often manifests itself in phrases like " I had to work because we don't have enough retirement". It sounds self self sacrificing, but what she really means is that there is not enough retirement for HER.

In attempting to explain that a little bit better ( I hope!). Controlling behaviour in women is an 'I'm OK, but you are not OK" psychological stance, and is constant and ongoing ( it's not just about the marraige relationship ). It is based in the most basic instinct a woman has-the survival instinct, and is so very prevalent today, and I think I said I believe it to be the number one cause of divorce.

The opposite of controlling behaviour is not the nice traits up there you mention in the first line of your post, or at least not directly. The opposite of controlling behaviour in women and the most basic definition of femininity is VULNERABILITY. This is the across-the-board-true-for-all-cultures-timespans and peoples just everywhere and anywhere. Now, depending on environment, politics, history, cultural and survival needs, etc, this vulnerability translates into many different ideals, hence the reason so many posts on this forum insist that all gender roles are merely "social constructs", but there really is a basis for it all. A womans' basic femininity is based in her vulnerability.

When a woman is controlling, in a nutshell her underlying motivation is to protect herself from becoming vulnerable. Which is too bad because vulnerability, to a man, is her most attractive trait, motivating him to protect her, emotionally connect with her and really "get" her, and provide for the her and the babies. Being controlling gets in the way of all that. Translating and honing female vulnerability can become an artform that releases a great deal of tension and frees up more time and energy for herself and everything else in her life. Amish women, or any other women who is not afraid to reveal her vulnerability, aren't happy because their husbands give them more attention ( although that's very good ). Their husbands give them more attention because they are happy. It isn't what someone like this "has" that makes her happy, but because of what she "is" she attracts to her life nicer and better quality relationships with men ( and everybody else for that matter, hence very little need for "boundaries"

I don't have time right now, but maybe later, and if anyone is interested, I will come back here and show other ways controlling behaviour manifests itself in women's lives on a day to day basis, and how it gets in the way of their happiness, and how vulnerability also manifests itself, to show how different the results are.
'

[eddie]

You just have to stop giving so much if you feel like you, life, or your relationship is out of balance. It is hard for some women to say no, and we live in a marriage culture that says everyone deserves everything from their spouse.

I agree with passionflower, but we need to clarify that for many women who self-sacrifice and then expect their husbands to do the same, it is not about feeling in control of the husband, but is sometimes in response to the expectations the wife feels from the husband. The longer this cycle goes, of each having expectations for each other, and then showing disappointment towards each other, the more the wife especially will become manipulative - doing things but expecting something in return. The husband usually starts the marriage off thinking this way. Any disappointment he shows towards his wife, whether it is because of a messy house, cold meal, or disinterest in sex, signals to the woman that he expects something from her, and if she doesn't meet his expectations, she is going to feel less love from him. So the more passive woman responds by trying to do everything to please her man, and when she doesn't feel loved in return, she starts becoming more demanding to counter the demands she feels from him. The more head-strong woman will just stop giving, which causes the man to feel neglected, love her less, and then she feels justified in being mad at him, and the cycle goes on and on. If you feel your spouse's disappointment, you have to tell yourself that your spouse is being selfish, and you are not obligated to give anything unless a certain behavior has been agree upon to happen at or by a certain time. Set boundaries on your giving, like when you are too tired for example, but anytime you withhold giving, you have to give in other ways, and like passionflower said, be happy, in order to reassure your spouse that you are not withholding because of resentment or bitterness, but because one of your boundaries have been crossed - you have too much to do, you feel tired, you are not in the mood, whatever your boundary is, you have to reassure your spouse that you are not giving because of you, and not because how you feel towards your spouse.

Remember that I said up here that the Amish women did not have these types of problems as you describe up there. Neither did they fail to meet their husbands expectations. I have been in their homes and they are neat and orderly, the kids are neat and tidy, and the women are neat and tidy. So you see, there is no problem such as you describe in the first place. No need for boundaries, trading of favors, compromises or talking things out, as the marraige relationship flows more normally and harmoniously. Instead of trying to make things happen, a woman finds things she wants and needs flowing towards her without all this effort. This is because they are into their feminine nature, and I mean REALLY into it.

Believe it or not, a disorderly home is a sign of a controlling women. When our MO is control, we end up out of control every time.

I think what you're saying is that being feminine is basically using all those great qualities, like persuasion, meekness, gentleness, love, kindness etc. and I would agree. The opposite is being controlling. Telling others what to do, expecting something from their husbands. But in the post you imply that it is okay that the husbands have expectations for the wives, and the wives should just meet those expectations. So is it okay to have expectations for your husband then, if it is okay for the husbands to have expectations for the wives? What expectations are reasonable? Is love really about doing what someone expects you to do, or is love about free-will giving. Expectations are fine as long as they are agreed upon and are specific. We can say as a couple that we agree that the husband will do his best to provide a house and food for the family, and the wife will forgo working to have children. The reward each get are the children. They each are blessed to become a mother and father in this exchange.

My point was that I think many women turn controlling, or have expectations for their husbands, in response to their husband's controlling nature and expectations. I imagine that in the Amish community, the Amish men are a lot less attuned to their own wants than the modern man. The Amish man has not been exposed to all the messages that women will always be excited to give you what you want. I'm sure there is less mentality of entitlement, less neediness, less laziness, no time watching sports, and the Amish men actually spend more time with their families. No wonder the Amish women are so happy!

Your post isn't really connecting with what I meant. I am not good at teaching or explaining, I know. Let's see what I can do to make what I said more clear (ha ha!)
First off, I definately agree with you that a wife has every reason to expect her husband will do his best to fulfill the role of provider. But that said, she doesn't have the right to expect a certain standard of living above and beyond providing the necessities and maybe a little bit more. To expect this is called "controlling". It often manifests itself in phrases like " I had to work because we don't have enough retirement". It sounds self self sacrificing, but what she really means is that there is not enough retirement for HER.

In attempting to explain that a little bit better ( I hope!). Controlling behaviour in women is an 'I'm OK, but you are not OK" psychological stance, and is constant and ongoing ( it's not just about the marraige relationship ). It is based in the most basic instinct a woman has-the survival instinct, and is so very prevalent today, and I think I said I believe it to be the number one cause of divorce.

The opposite of controlling behaviour is not the nice traits up there you mention in the first line of your post, or at least not directly. The opposite of controlling behaviour in women and the most basic definition of femininity is VULNERABILITY. This is the across-the-board-true-for-all-cultures-timespans and peoples just everywhere and anywhere. Now, depending on environment, politics, history, cultural and survival needs, etc, this vulnerability translates into many different ideals, hence the reason so many posts on this forum insist that all gender roles are merely "social constructs", but there really is a basis for it all. A womans' basic femininity is based in her vulnerability.

When a woman is controlling, in a nutshell her underlying motivation is to protect herself from becoming vulnerable. Which is too bad because vulnerability, to a man, is her most attractive trait, motivating him to protect her, emotionally connect with her and really "get" her, and provide for the her and the babies. Being controlling gets in the way of all that. Translating and honing female vulnerability can become an artform that releases a great deal of tension and frees up more time and energy for herself and everything else in her life. Amish women, or any other women who is not afraid to reveal her vulnerability, aren't happy because their husbands give them more attention ( although that's very good ). Their husbands give them more attention because they are happy. It isn't what someone like this "has" that makes her happy, but because of what she "is" she attracts to her life nicer and better quality relationships with men ( and everybody else for that matter, hence very little need for "boundaries"

I don't have time right now, but maybe later, and if anyone is interested, I will come back here and show other ways controlling behaviour manifests itself in women's lives on a day to day basis, and how it gets in the way of their happiness, and how vulnerability also manifests itself, to show how different the results are.
'

Great response!

[Sarah]

You just have to stop giving so much if you feel like you, life, or your relationship is out of balance. It is hard for some women to say no, and we live in a marriage culture that says everyone deserves everything from their spouse.

I agree with passionflower, but we need to clarify that for many women who self-sacrifice and then expect their husbands to do the same, it is not about feeling in control of the husband, but is sometimes in response to the expectations the wife feels from the husband. The longer this cycle goes, of each having expectations for each other, and then showing disappointment towards each other, the more the wife especially will become manipulative - doing things but expecting something in return. The husband usually starts the marriage off thinking this way. Any disappointment he shows towards his wife, whether it is because of a messy house, cold meal, or disinterest in sex, signals to the woman that he expects something from her, and if she doesn't meet his expectations, she is going to feel less love from him. So the more passive woman responds by trying to do everything to please her man, and when she doesn't feel loved in return, she starts becoming more demanding to counter the demands she feels from him. The more head-strong woman will just stop giving, which causes the man to feel neglected, love her less, and then she feels justified in being mad at him, and the cycle goes on and on. If you feel your spouse's disappointment, you have to tell yourself that your spouse is being selfish, and you are not obligated to give anything unless a certain behavior has been agree upon to happen at or by a certain time. Set boundaries on your giving, like when you are too tired for example, but anytime you withhold giving, you have to give in other ways, and like passionflower said, be happy, in order to reassure your spouse that you are not withholding because of resentment or bitterness, but because one of your boundaries have been crossed - you have too much to do, you feel tired, you are not in the mood, whatever your boundary is, you have to reassure your spouse that you are not giving because of you, and not because how you feel towards your spouse.

Remember that I said up here that the Amish women did not have these types of problems as you describe up there. Neither did they fail to meet their husbands expectations. I have been in their homes and they are neat and orderly, the kids are neat and tidy, and the women are neat and tidy. So you see, there is no problem such as you describe in the first place. No need for boundaries, trading of favors, compromises or talking things out, as the marraige relationship flows more normally and harmoniously. Instead of trying to make things happen, a woman finds things she wants and needs flowing towards her without all this effort. This is because they are into their feminine nature, and I mean REALLY into it.

Believe it or not, a disorderly home is a sign of a controlling women. When our MO is control, we end up out of control every time.

I think what you're saying is that being feminine is basically using all those great qualities, like persuasion, meekness, gentleness, love, kindness etc. and I would agree. The opposite is being controlling. Telling others what to do, expecting something from their husbands. But in the post you imply that it is okay that the husbands have expectations for the wives, and the wives should just meet those expectations. So is it okay to have expectations for your husband then, if it is okay for the husbands to have expectations for the wives? What expectations are reasonable? Is love really about doing what someone expects you to do, or is love about free-will giving. Expectations are fine as long as they are agreed upon and are specific. We can say as a couple that we agree that the husband will do his best to provide a house and food for the family, and the wife will forgo working to have children. The reward each get are the children. They each are blessed to become a mother and father in this exchange.

My point was that I think many women turn controlling, or have expectations for their husbands, in response to their husband's controlling nature and expectations. I imagine that in the Amish community, the Amish men are a lot less attuned to their own wants than the modern man. The Amish man has not been exposed to all the messages that women will always be excited to give you what you want. I'm sure there is less mentality of entitlement, less neediness, less laziness, no time watching sports, and the Amish men actually spend more time with their families. No wonder the Amish women are so happy!

Your post isn't really connecting with what I meant. I am not good at teaching or explaining, I know. Let's see what I can do to make what I said more clear (ha ha!)
First off, I definately agree with you that a wife has every reason to expect her husband will do his best to fulfill the role of provider. But that said, she doesn't have the right to expect a certain standard of living above and beyond providing the necessities and maybe a little bit more. To expect this is called "controlling". It often manifests itself in phrases like " I had to work because we don't have enough retirement". It sounds self self sacrificing, but what she really means is that there is not enough retirement for HER.

In attempting to explain that a little bit better ( I hope!). Controlling behaviour in women is an 'I'm OK, but you are not OK" psychological stance, and is constant and ongoing ( it's not just about the marraige relationship ). It is based in the most basic instinct a woman has-the survival instinct, and is so very prevalent today, and I think I said I believe it to be the number one cause of divorce.

The opposite of controlling behaviour is not the nice traits up there you mention in the first line of your post, or at least not directly. The opposite of controlling behaviour in women and the most basic definition of femininity is VULNERABILITY. This is the across-the-board-true-for-all-cultures-timespans and peoples just everywhere and anywhere. Now, depending on environment, politics, history, cultural and survival needs, etc, this vulnerability translates into many different ideals, hence the reason so many posts on this forum insist that all gender roles are merely "social constructs", but there really is a basis for it all. A womans' basic femininity is based in her vulnerability.

When a woman is controlling, in a nutshell her underlying motivation is to protect herself from becoming vulnerable. Which is too bad because vulnerability, to a man, is her most attractive trait, motivating him to protect her, emotionally connect with her and really "get" her, and provide for the her and the babies. Being controlling gets in the way of all that. Translating and honing female vulnerability can become an artform that releases a great deal of tension and frees up more time and energy for herself and everything else in her life. Amish women, or any other women who is not afraid to reveal her vulnerability, aren't happy because their husbands give them more attention ( although that's very good ). Their husbands give them more attention because they are happy. It isn't what someone like this "has" that makes her happy, but because of what she "is" she attracts to her life nicer and better quality relationships with men ( and everybody else for that matter, hence very little need for "boundaries"

I don't have time right now, but maybe later, and if anyone is interested, I will come back here and show other ways controlling behaviour manifests itself in women's lives on a day to day basis, and how it gets in the way of their happiness, and how vulnerability also manifests itself, to show how different the results are.
'

It is a good post and I would like to hear more of how you see things. Your thoughts remind me of what is presented in Fascinating Womanhood. That book gave me some hope as a young married, but ultimately I had to discover some deeper truths than the notion that a woman who needs a man is attractive. What do you do to be vulnerable? Can you give some concrete examples of what you mean by vulnerability? You mention that a vulnerable woman is happy, but that is not the definition of vulnerable. I agree wholeheartedly that the number one thing a woman can do to attract all good things is to be happy. And so, yes, we need to need each other, but we also need to have the right motivation behind our requests and expectations. Our need or vulnerability I think should manifest itself in requests that allow the other to choose. Not expecting or demanding that a person meet your need.

I think we are choosing different words to basically describe the same problem. I just use the word "expectations" to describe how someone tries to control one's life or another person. But I also call it "selfishness," when one spouse feels entitled to receive something at his or her spouse's expense, and communicates this through disappointment and resentment.

Earlier in the thread an example was given that a woman might give quality time hoping she would get quality time in return. That seemed to be a turn-off to the man. The gift the woman gave came across as a request, and he could sense that by her desire for quality time in return. So this woman needed her man, but went about the wrong way trying to get what she wanted. Men do the same thing. They think they are giving a gift of love when they give physical affection, but the woman can sense that their gift is really a request by how they act if the woman doesn't respond in they way they want. This expectation masked as a love gift turn's off the woman, and she starts to resent his expectations.

And the other example - how does a woman respond to a man who rolls his eyes when she asks for help? I would say, make sure you are asking for the right reason - request when you know your man will appreciate your request. If he gives signs that he doesn't like your requests for help, then stop requesting, and give him more freedom again until he comes into balance and feels like helping. If he doesn't ever want to help you, then that is when you stop giving as much, and just kindly explain that you have so much to do if and when he requests things from you.

[brianj]

My point was that I think many women turn controlling, or have expectations for their husbands, in response to their husband's controlling nature and expectations. I imagine that in the Amish community, the Amish men are a lot less attuned to their own wants than the modern man. The Amish man has not been exposed to all the messages that women will always be excited to give you what you want. I'm sure there is less mentality of entitlement, less neediness, less laziness, no time watching sports, and the Amish men actually spend more time with their families. No wonder the Amish women are so happy!

When I overhear women discussing their divorces, I almost never hear them complaining about their ex-husbands being controlling. What I so often observe is that they took daddy telling them a princess too seriously and see a husband more as a servant than an equal. And women know that in the current legal environment they hold all the power in a relationship. Leave the husband and they can likely collect alimony as well as child support. They can have the father of their children thrown in jail if he doesn't pay child support, but when I hear from divorced fathers I NEVER hear of a woman being held legally accountable for ignoring the court ordered visitation schedule. It is easy to find videos on YouTube showing experiments where a woman berates and physically abuses her partner and people just watch, but the moment he tries defending himself people jump in to protect the "innocent" woman. Feminists pretend domestic violence is a one-way thing, but in reality women commit acts of violence as often as men do. Sadly, I have known of men being arrested for domestic violence even when police observed the woman committing the assault.

I do believe a major reason why the Amish are so happy is because they so strongly avoid worldliness. When a Mormon woman incessantly complains that she isn't getting the money she deserves from her lazy ex husband I see a problem. When I see other women supporting that kind of greed I see a very big problem.

[Melissa]

My point was that I think many women turn controlling, or have expectations for their husbands, in response to their husband's controlling nature and expectations. I imagine that in the Amish community, the Amish men are a lot less attuned to their own wants than the modern man. The Amish man has not been exposed to all the messages that women will always be excited to give you what you want. I'm sure there is less mentality of entitlement, less neediness, less laziness, no time watching sports, and the Amish men actually spend more time with their families. No wonder the Amish women are so happy!

When I overhear women discussing their divorces, I almost never hear them complaining about their ex-husbands being controlling. What I so often observe is that they took daddy telling them a princess too seriously and see a husband more as a servant than an equal. And women know that in the current legal environment they hold all the power in a relationship. Leave the husband and they can likely collect alimony as well as child support. They can have the father of their children thrown in jail if he doesn't pay child support, but when I hear from divorced fathers I NEVER hear of a woman being held legally accountable for ignoring the court ordered visitation schedule. It is easy to find videos on YouTube showing experiments where a woman berates and physically abuses her partner and people just watch, but the moment he tries defending himself people jump in to protect the "innocent" woman. Feminists pretend domestic violence is a one-way thing, but in reality women commit acts of violence as often as men do. Sadly, I have known of men being arrested for domestic violence even when police observed the woman committing the assault.

I do believe a major reason why the Amish are so happy is because they so strongly avoid worldliness. When a Mormon woman incessantly complains that she isn't getting the money she deserves from her lazy ex husband I see a problem. When I see other women supporting that kind of greed I see a very big problem.

Divorce is the problem here. Both parties are to blame in a divorce. It's nice that men tend to sympathize with men but realize he likely had as much fault or more for the divorce he just doesn't talk about it.

Women depend on their husband who has the career and means to provide while she does her job and has the kids and cares for them. If divorce happens she is at a disadvantage as far as being able to immediately provide financial means for herself and children.

This is why divorce should be avoided to every degree possible. And both are to blame except in rare and severe cases.

It's interesting to me that so many people have stories of women dvorcing husbands because of money or whatever and being horrible after the divorce when I don't know of any LDS women who are gold diggers and expect a certain way of life or else. Maybe because I don't live in an area that's superficial? Utah? I don't know, I just find it interesting that Mormons outside of Utah and other highly populated areas of mormons, don't act like this.

[brianj]

Divorce is the problem here. Both parties are to blame in a divorce. It's nice that men tend to sympathize with men but realize he likely had as much fault or more for the divorce he just doesn't talk about it.

Women depend on their husband who has the career and means to provide while she does her job and has the kids and cares for them. If divorce happens she is at a disadvantage as far as being able to immediately provide financial means for herself and children.

This is why divorce should be avoided to every degree possible. And both are to blame except in rare and severe cases.

It's interesting to me that so many people have stories of women dvorcing husbands because of money or whatever and being horrible after the divorce when I don't know of any LDS women who are gold diggers and expect a certain way of life or else. Maybe because I don't live in an area that's superficial? Utah? I don't know, I just find it interesting that Mormons outside of Utah and other highly populated areas of mormons, don't act like this.

Yes, in most cases both parties are to blame. But in those situations, I tend to believe that more often than not one is more to blame than the other. The husband who lets a porn addiction consume him or who commits adultery deserves far more blame than the woman who chooses to not stick with him and file for divorce.

Regarding your second paragraph, I think that should have read "Stay at home women depend..." I have known a small number of families where the husband doesn't earn enough for even a meager lifestyle and needs the wife to work, and some where the husband is unable to work, but most of the two income LDS families are such because one or both of the spouses want a lifestyle greater than one can provide. I have known two LDS women well who were stay at home mothers until they divorced, and yes I think they deserve support from their ex husbands - especially since the ex husbands bear the majority of the blame in those two cases. But I have known of women in two income families who quit, file for divorce, get a big alimony payment, then resume their jobs. And then they boast about taking their ex to the cleaners!

I don't know that this can be associated with people in Utah, California, or other places where higher incomes are easy to see, but I think it depends more on the individual. I have known materialistic people to turn away from materialism, and people who don't place any value on the things of the world turn to materialism.

[JohnnyL]

"I expect you to ask me out once a month; out means out; to arrange a babysitter from this list; to plan an activity, or an activity in addition to dinner. If you don't, it will add up." ?

What is this ^^^^ from?
My husband and I don't go out more than 2x/ yr because we don't have babysitters. Extended family will chip in is 2x/ yr. We've tried the youth in our stake and repeatedly we've had issues. I don't know if it's just our area, but the youth are pretty immature and irresponsible. Plus, babysitters are expensive. Even though my husband and I don't have to spend a dime to enjoy a date together, babysitters do cost money.

So I'm not complaining about motherhood because I'm lonely or bored. I'm saying that I do my absolute best and am exhausted. A full- time job is nowhere near the amount of time and energy I put into being a mom and a wife. I honestly don't understand how other moms do this. And it's not like there's any immediate compensation or review letting you know if you're doing things correctly. There's usually at least 1 kid who's mad at you. You don't get a paycheck that says "hey, your child vomited all over you last night, so we're paying you overtime." I have no way of knowing if in 20 yrs my child will be resentful for something I messed up today.
So I feel lost. Am I doing a good job? I have no idea. Am I trying my best? Definitely. Is my best good enough? I guess I'll find out in 20 years ;)

Thanks for your advice. Are you of the opinion that motherhood just comes naturally and is wonderful and easy as long as you do it right? Because that's what they told me in young women's.

However one sister I respect told me that for those who do it right, motherhood is actually really difficult.

After I posted that I thought, whoops! I didn't mean it as a personal thing or directed specifically towards you, per se. I was just mentioning people I knew who found motherhood hard, tiring, etc., but weren't "willing to do things"/ make changes that could have helped a lot.

Ha ha, no, motherhood DOESN'T just...; however, it is easier if you do it right--like all other things.

For dating: take turns with couples who have children; use grandparents or older singles (our ward has lots of single sisters).

[Sarah]

My point was that I think many women turn controlling, or have expectations for their husbands, in response to their husband's controlling nature and expectations. I imagine that in the Amish community, the Amish men are a lot less attuned to their own wants than the modern man. The Amish man has not been exposed to all the messages that women will always be excited to give you what you want. I'm sure there is less mentality of entitlement, less neediness, less laziness, no time watching sports, and the Amish men actually spend more time with their families. No wonder the Amish women are so happy!

When I overhear women discussing their divorces, I almost never hear them complaining about their ex-husbands being controlling. What I so often observe is that they took daddy telling them a princess too seriously and see a husband more as a servant than an equal. And women know that in the current legal environment they hold all the power in a relationship. Leave the husband and they can likely collect alimony as well as child support. They can have the father of their children thrown in jail if he doesn't pay child support, but when I hear from divorced fathers I NEVER hear of a woman being held legally accountable for ignoring the court ordered visitation schedule. It is easy to find videos on YouTube showing experiments where a woman berates and physically abuses her partner and people just watch, but the moment he tries defending himself people jump in to protect the "innocent" woman. Feminists pretend domestic violence is a one-way thing, but in reality women commit acts of violence as often as men do. Sadly, I have known of men being arrested for domestic violence even when police observed the woman committing the assault.

I do believe a major reason why the Amish are so happy is because they so strongly avoid worldliness. When a Mormon woman incessantly complains that she isn't getting the money she deserves from her lazy ex husband I see a problem. When I see other women supporting that kind of greed I see a very big problem.

This is why I don't really like the word controlling and prefer to use the word expectations. And the reason is that each person tries to get what they want in different ways. Some are very verbal in stating their demands, expectations and requests, some just withhold in order to punish the other for not getting what they want. And the nature of expectations between husbands and wives are different, in that each shows that expectation differently.

What would you say that the typical newly married lds man goes into marriage expecting. Let's say that he expects that his wife will cook, shop for groceries, keep a tidy house, do laundry, and will love to give him physical intimacy. And then, when the children come, take care of the children and meet most of their needs while doing all of the above. What does the typical newly married lds woman expect from her new husband. Perhaps to provide an income, and help with the house and children. Now, who do you think is most likely to disappoint, the woman or the man? I would say the woman is most likely to disappoint the man first. In that first year, she is not going to do all those things that he expects that she will do, and he will start to show some disappointment. He doesn't have to act "controlling" in an outward way, he only needs to show his dissatisfaction in his face, demeanor, his withdrawal emotionally, that sends the message that he is not happy that his wife is not giving him what he needs. This starts the cycle in my opinion, of expectations. The woman on the other hand, how does she show her dissatisfaction? The things that she expects and is not getting often have to be verbalized. Not necessarily of course. She too can get good at withdrawing to punish her husband for not helping with the children for example, but I think this is why women have more of the stigma of being "controlling," is because the woman is more likely to verbalize her wants. But if you look at expectations by themselves, you'll see that both genders are guilty of sending the message that they deserve something, and that will surely turn the other off.

[JohnnyL]

Divorce is the problem here. Both parties are to blame in a divorce. It's nice that men tend to sympathize with men but realize he likely had as much fault or more for the divorce he just doesn't talk about it.

Women depend on their husband who has the career and means to provide while she does her job and has the kids and cares for them. If divorce happens she is at a disadvantage as far as being able to immediately provide financial means for herself and children.

This is why divorce should be avoided to every degree possible. And both are to blame except in rare and severe cases.

It's interesting to me that so many people have stories of women dvorcing husbands because of money or whatever and being horrible after the divorce when I don't know of any LDS women who are gold diggers and expect a certain way of life or else. Maybe because I don't live in an area that's superficial? Utah? I don't know, I just find it interesting that Mormons outside of Utah and other highly populated areas of mormons, don't act like this.

It's all over, but if it makes you feel better, it's not just LDS.

If divorce happens, why doesn't he get the children? Why doesn't she then support him by working? Especially when so many divorces happen because he already can't support her (in his eyes), lol.

Both parties probably are to blame IN a divorce, but one party is usually to blame FOR the divorce. Men rarely sympathize with men, except when they have "been there, done that", and it's usually... not the same. I taught a lesson on relationships and it wasn't putting women on a pedestal, and every one of the six or seven men came up after the lesson and shook my hand, perhaps sighed just a bit, looked in my eyes just a tad bit longer than usual, etc. It was very clear, but NOTHING WAS SAID, even though they all had the same problem of over-expecting, nagging, controlling wives.

I taughta wife how to be happy in her relationship, and when I asked her about it a month or two later, she said, "Wow, I'm happy! It works!" And everyone else in the family was happy, too. A few months later, and things are back to normal. "What happened?" "I couldn't keep doing it. I had to yell [or whatever]."

[Juliet]

So how do we end the bad cycles that are prevelent and start developing respect on both genders' behalf? What has worked to help you in your lives respect your spouses? We need to educate ourselves on what does work because we all know ways that it does not.

Has anyone been able to tame the shrew and get the respect you need from your spouse? It baffles me that men invent so much and build so many things that are beautiful and breathtaking, but then throw up their hands if their wife is hard to deal with.

[butterfly]

I'm not a marriage counselor, but what I hear a lot of these posts describing seems like a lot of mental gymnastics to go through with your spouse.
Why can't spouses just honestly and blatantly say how they feel, what they'd like from each other, etc?

Like the example Juliet gave about her husband rolling his eyes when she asked for help- she told him why it bothered her, he explained what he meant, and ta-da, problem solved.

I don't see how it's helpful to sit there and calculate techniques in your mind like "well since he did "this", then I'm going to respond with "that", and then later when he wants something from me I'll have the perfect moment to state that I'd love to but I really need more of "this" from him first."

My thinking is that if I'm planning these types of "traps" or plans for how to get my husband to willingly help me, he is going to be completely unaware of it. I think he'd much prefer it if I kindly addressed the issue right away and then we move on.

But that's just me and what works for us in our marriage- honesty, not calculating.

[butterfly]

I taughta wife how to be happy in her relationship, and when I asked her about it a month or two later, she said, "Wow, I'm happy! It works!" And everyone else in the family was happy, too. A few months later, and things are back to normal. "What happened?" "I couldn't keep doing it. I had to yell [or whatever]."

What did you teach her that was so transforming but so hard for her to keep doing?

[Sarah]

I'm not a marriage counselor, but what I hear a lot of these posts describing seems like a lot of mental gymnastics to go through with your spouse.
Why can't spouses just honestly and blatantly say how they feel, what they'd like from each other, etc?

Like the example Juliet gave about her husband rolling his eyes when she asked for help- she told him why it bothered her, he explained what he meant, and ta-da, problem solved.

I don't see how it's helpful to sit there and calculate techniques in your mind like "well since he did "this", then I'm going to respond with "that", and then later when he wants something from me I'll have the perfect moment to state that I'd love to but I really need more of "this" from him first."

My thinking is that if I'm planning these types of "traps" or plans for how to get my husband to willingly help me, he is going to be completely unaware of it. I think he'd much prefer it if I kindly addressed the issue right away and then we move on.

But that's just me and what works for us in our marriage- honesty, not calculating.

What I'm attempting to describe is how to be honest, at least this is what has worked for me in my marriage. The dishonesty came when I gave my husband what he wanted, and I was doing things for him grudgingly, and not out of love. I was being dishonest in telling myself that I was loving him, when I was doing it grudgingly, and that it was my duty to fill his every expectation, when I had to learn that it is not always needful that I give to him if he is being selfish and wants things at my expense. A husband or wife can be honest and really say - I am not able to give that to you, and here's why, instead of keeping it all inside and just feeling resentful or bitter.

[Sarah]

I'm not a marriage counselor, but what I hear a lot of these posts describing seems like a lot of mental gymnastics to go through with your spouse.
Why can't spouses just honestly and blatantly say how they feel, what they'd like from each other, etc?

Like the example Juliet gave about her husband rolling his eyes when she asked for help- she told him why it bothered her, he explained what he meant, and ta-da, problem solved.

I don't see how it's helpful to sit there and calculate techniques in your mind like "well since he did "this", then I'm going to respond with "that", and then later when he wants something from me I'll have the perfect moment to state that I'd love to but I really need more of "this" from him first."

My thinking is that if I'm planning these types of "traps" or plans for how to get my husband to willingly help me, he is going to be completely unaware of it. I think he'd much prefer it if I kindly addressed the issue right away and then we move on.

But that's just me and what works for us in our marriage- honesty, not calculating.

But I can see why you looked at my comment about the eye-rolling as calculating. Let me try to explain my reasoning on that one. If someone roles their eyes at a request, is he or she fulfilling that request with the right motivation of love, or are they doing it grudgingly? It's obvious, right? So was Juliet's husband being honest about how he felt? Yes, but he showed that he didn't want to help her in that moment for whatever reason, and grudgingly helped her up. (Maybe that is really not what happened Juliet, but let's pretend that is how he felt!) So yes, she did the right thing to call him on it, and honestly explain how that hurt her, but what if this was his typical response every time she asked him to help her? That was where my answer was meant to apply. If you feel like your spouse is acting grudgingly all the time when doing something for you, your spouse is not being honest really. He or she is pretending to love you when really they are withholding love while going through the motions. So my solution was to stop requesting things that your spouse is doing grudgingly. Can you force someone to have the right motivation? No, they will either act out of love, or grudgingly out of fear or selfishness. Find out why your spouse is acting the way he or she is acting, and usually the solution is to give more freedom by getting rid of unnecessary expectations and frequent requests, and be patient to receive.

[butterfly]

I'm not a marriage counselor, but what I hear a lot of these posts describing seems like a lot of mental gymnastics to go through with your spouse.
Why can't spouses just honestly and blatantly say how they feel, what they'd like from each other, etc?

Like the example Juliet gave about her husband rolling his eyes when she asked for help- she told him why it bothered her, he explained what he meant, and ta-da, problem solved.

I don't see how it's helpful to sit there and calculate techniques in your mind like "well since he did "this", then I'm going to respond with "that", and then later when he wants something from me I'll have the perfect moment to state that I'd love to but I really need more of "this" from him first."

My thinking is that if I'm planning these types of "traps" or plans for how to get my husband to willingly help me, he is going to be completely unaware of it. I think he'd much prefer it if I kindly addressed the issue right away and then we move on.

But that's just me and what works for us in our marriage- honesty, not calculating.

What I'm attempting to describe is how to be honest, at least this is what has worked for me in my marriage. The dishonesty comes when I gave my husband what he wanted when it was at my expense, and I was doing things for him grudgingly, and not out of love. I was being dishonest in telling myself that it was my duty to fill his every expectation, when I had to learn that it is not always needful that I give to him if he is being selfish and wants things at my expense. A woman can be honest and really say - I am not able to give that to you, and here's why, instead of keeping it all inside and just feeling resentful or bitter.

I agree with this ^^^^. I was understanding something different from your other posts. The part i quoted at the bottom especially threw me off, but most of what you're describing just seems very mechanical to me, like instead of doing what comes naturally because you love your spouse and want them to be happy, you need to robotically calculate your next move- does that make sense? Also, it sounds like you've dealt with this first- hand whereas I haven't really encountered this issue with my husband. That may be why I'm not following your point.

You said "And the other example - how does a woman respond to a man who rolls his eyes when she asks for help? I would say, make sure you are asking for the right reason - request when you know your man will appreciate your request. This is an odd statement to me. Who asks their spouse for help if they don't really need help? How do you know beforehand if they're going to appreciate your request? I don't think asking them for help is like getting them a b.day present and you hope they like it. No one should unnecessarily burden their spouse to begin with.
"If he gives signs that he doesn't like your requests for help, then stop requesting, and give him more freedom again until he comes into balance and feels like helping. If he doesn't ever want to help you, then that is when you stop giving as much, and just kindly explain that you have so much to do if and when he requests things from you."

This part sounds off to me. The way I see it, if he's not helping and you need help, then you should openly state "I'm overwhelmed, can you help me find a solution." I wouldn't stop giving as much just to "teach him a lesson". If I'm giving him something, then it's with no strings attached. I give it whether he's a jerk or a saint; it's unconditional. If I couldn't keep up with my work, he'd already know why because I would have already told him. I wouldn't just keep it to myself and wait til he asked me for something where I respond with "sorry, I'm too busy." That doesn't seem like working with your spouse to fix a problem; it sounds more like viewing your spouse as the problem. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding you.

[butterfly]

I'm not a marriage counselor, but what I hear a lot of these posts describing seems like a lot of mental gymnastics to go through with your spouse.
Why can't spouses just honestly and blatantly say how they feel, what they'd like from each other, etc?

Like the example Juliet gave about her husband rolling his eyes when she asked for help- she told him why it bothered her, he explained what he meant, and ta-da, problem solved.

I don't see how it's helpful to sit there and calculate techniques in your mind like "well since he did "this", then I'm going to respond with "that", and then later when he wants something from me I'll have the perfect moment to state that I'd love to but I really need more of "this" from him first."

My thinking is that if I'm planning these types of "traps" or plans for how to get my husband to willingly help me, he is going to be completely unaware of it. I think he'd much prefer it if I kindly addressed the issue right away and then we move on.

But that's just me and what works for us in our marriage- honesty, not calculating.

But I can see why you looked at my comment about the eye-rolling as calculating. Let me try to explain my reasoning on that one. If someone roles their eyes at a request, is he or she fulfilling that request with the right motivation of love, or are they doing it grudgingly? It's obvious, right? So was Juliet's husband being honest about how he felt? Yes, but he showed that he didn't want to help her in that moment for whatever reason, and grudgingly helped her up. (Maybe that is really not what happened Juliet, but let's pretend that is how he felt!) So yes, she did the right thing to call him on it, and honestly explain how that hurt her, but what if this was his typical response every time she asked him to help her? That was where my answer was meant to apply. If you feel like your spouse is acting grudgingly all the time when doing something for you, your spouse is not being honest really. He or she is pretending to love you when really they are withholding love while going through the motions. So my solution was to stop requesting things that your spouse is doing grudgingly. Can you force someone to have the right motivation? No, they will either act out of love, or grudgingly out of fear or selfishness. Find out why your spouse is acting the way he or she is acting, and usually the solution is to give more freedom by getting rid of unnecessary expectations and frequent requests, and be patient to receive.

We posted at about the same time so I saw this after I posted my previous comments to you. Yeah, that makes a little more sense. As long as your spouse knows what you are doing and why, then yes, giving more freedom and being patient could be an answer. But if your spouse repeatedly begrudges helping you, then that seems more like an issue between the 2 of you specifically and what it means to unconditionally love a person.

The problem of begrudgingly helping could be as simple as he really hates taking out the trash and is there some other way he can help. But if spouses truly love each other then they help each other because they make each other's happiness a priority. I'm not sure how giving more freedom would correct this, but maybe if one spouse is incessantly asking for help they don't really need, then giving more freedom might be a temporary solution. But the heart of the matter I think would still be not understanding unconditional love.

[passionflower]

Remember that I said up here that the Amish women did not have these types of problems as you describe up there. Neither did they fail to meet their husbands expectations. I have been in their homes and they are neat and orderly, the kids are neat and tidy, and the women are neat and tidy. So you see, there is no problem such as you describe in the first place. No need for boundaries, trading of favors, compromises or talking things out, as the marraige relationship flows more normally and harmoniously. Instead of trying to make things happen, a woman finds things she wants and needs flowing towards her without all this effort. This is because they are into their feminine nature, and I mean REALLY into it.

Believe it or not, a disorderly home is a sign of a controlling women. When our MO is control, we end up out of control every time.

I think what you're saying is that being feminine is basically using all those great qualities, like persuasion, meekness, gentleness, love, kindness etc. and I would agree. The opposite is being controlling. Telling others what to do, expecting something from their husbands. But in the post you imply that it is okay that the husbands have expectations for the wives, and the wives should just meet those expectations. So is it okay to have expectations for your husband then, if it is okay for the husbands to have expectations for the wives? What expectations are reasonable? Is love really about doing what someone expects you to do, or is love about free-will giving. Expectations are fine as long as they are agreed upon and are specific. We can say as a couple that we agree that the husband will do his best to provide a house and food for the family, and the wife will forgo working to have children. The reward each get are the children. They each are blessed to become a mother and father in this exchange.

My point was that I think many women turn controlling, or have expectations for their husbands, in response to their husband's controlling nature and expectations. I imagine that in the Amish community, the Amish men are a lot less attuned to their own wants than the modern man. The Amish man has not been exposed to all the messages that women will always be excited to give you what you want. I'm sure there is less mentality of entitlement, less neediness, less laziness, no time watching sports, and the Amish men actually spend more time with their families. No wonder the Amish women are so happy!

Your post isn't really connecting with what I meant. I am not good at teaching or explaining, I know. Let's see what I can do to make what I said more clear (ha ha!)
First off, I definately agree with you that a wife has every reason to expect her husband will do his best to fulfill the role of provider. But that said, she doesn't have the right to expect a certain standard of living above and beyond providing the necessities and maybe a little bit more. To expect this is called "controlling". It often manifests itself in phrases like " I had to work because we don't have enough retirement". It sounds self self sacrificing, but what she really means is that there is not enough retirement for HER.

In attempting to explain that a little bit better ( I hope!). Controlling behaviour in women is an 'I'm OK, but you are not OK" psychological stance, and is constant and ongoing ( it's not just about the marraige relationship ). It is based in the most basic instinct a woman has-the survival instinct, and is so very prevalent today, and I think I said I believe it to be the number one cause of divorce.

The opposite of controlling behaviour is not the nice traits up there you mention in the first line of your post, or at least not directly. The opposite of controlling behaviour in women and the most basic definition of femininity is VULNERABILITY. This is the across-the-board-true-for-all-cultures-timespans and peoples just everywhere and anywhere. Now, depending on environment, politics, history, cultural and survival needs, etc, this vulnerability translates into many different ideals, hence the reason so many posts on this forum insist that all gender roles are merely "social constructs", but there really is a basis for it all. A womans' basic femininity is based in her vulnerability.

When a woman is controlling, in a nutshell her underlying motivation is to protect herself from becoming vulnerable. Which is too bad because vulnerability, to a man, is her most attractive trait, motivating him to protect her, emotionally connect with her and really "get" her, and provide for the her and the babies. Being controlling gets in the way of all that. Translating and honing female vulnerability can become an artform that releases a great deal of tension and frees up more time and energy for herself and everything else in her life. Amish women, or any other women who is not afraid to reveal her vulnerability, aren't happy because their husbands give them more attention ( although that's very good ). Their husbands give them more attention because they are happy. It isn't what someone like this "has" that makes her happy, but because of what she "is" she attracts to her life nicer and better quality relationships with men ( and everybody else for that matter, hence very little need for "boundaries"

I don't have time right now, but maybe later, and if anyone is interested, I will come back here and show other ways controlling behaviour manifests itself in women's lives on a day to day basis, and how it gets in the way of their happiness, and how vulnerability also manifests itself, to show how different the results are.
'

It is a good post and I would like to hear more of how you see things. Your thoughts remind me of what is presented in Fascinating Womanhood. That book gave me some hope as a young married, but ultimately I had to discover some deeper truths than the notion that a woman who needs a man is attractive. What do you do to be vulnerable? Can you give some concrete examples of what you mean by vulnerability? You mention that a vulnerable woman is happy, but that is not the definition of vulnerable. I agree wholeheartedly that the number one thing a woman can do to attract all good things is to be happy. And so, yes, we need to need each other, but we also need to have the right motivation behind our requests and expectations. Our need or vulnerability I think should manifest itself in requests that allow the other to choose. Not expecting or demanding that a person meet your need.

I think we are choosing different words to basically describe the same problem. I just use the word "expectations" to describe how someone tries to control one's life or another person. But I also call it "selfishness," when one spouse feels entitled to receive something at his or her spouse's expense, and communicates this through disappointment and resentment.

Earlier in the thread an example was given that a woman might give quality time hoping she would get quality time in return. That seemed to be a turn-off to the man. The gift the woman gave came across as a request, and he could sense that by her desire for quality time in return. So this woman needed her man, but went about the wrong way trying to get what she wanted. Men do the same thing. They think they are giving a gift of love when they give physical affection, but the woman can sense that their gift is really a request by how they act if the woman doesn't respond in they way they want. This expectation masked as a love gift turn's off the woman, and she starts to resent his expectations.

And the other example - how does a woman respond to a man who rolls his eyes when she asks for help? I would say, make sure you are asking for the right reason - request when you know your man will appreciate your request. If he gives signs that he doesn't like your requests for help, then stop requesting, and give him more freedom again until he comes into balance and feels like helping. If he doesn't ever want to help you, then that is when you stop giving as much, and just kindly explain that you have so much to do if and when he requests things from you.

So how does a woman respond to a man when he rolls his eyes when she asks for help?

Off the top of my head, my take on problem here is to say that most men want to be treated with respect. Treating your husband with respect is so important to him, it could probably be said to be the number one aphrodisiac on the block. A man must feel respected if he is to connect with you on an intimate basis. Respect from a wife means she understands that He and he alone wants to decide how he uses his time and energy and be self directed and independent in doing so, and he wants his needs for self care and personal rejuvenation to be respected and uppermost in the mind of his wife.

To ask for help is just that, simply asking, and that's all. But requests move into the realm of control when you starts to dictate to your husband how how you want him to do something for you, when you wants it done, and why he has to do it, etc etc.

We aren't choosing different words to describe the same problem. In LDS jargon, the word "perfectionism" is often used in place for the word "control" although that word doesn't really quite cut it. ( there is nothing really wrong with being a perfectionist. It is just a nicer word than "control" and lets women shift the blame for their behaviour on their mother, the church, or someone else ) Controlling women are very closed--the opposite of vulnerable. Instead of simply receiving what her husband does do for her, she closes him off and shuts him down because somehow what he did just wasn't what she wanted. Ever complimented a woman just to have her dismiss your admiration with something like , "O, this old dress?" or " what I did wasn't as hard as it looked", "My hair isn't really so nice because....." Instead of just saying "thank you." This kind of woman might think she feels unworthy of the compliment, but in reality she has an underlying agenda to stay in control.

That's because receiving from others is the ultimate act of letting go of control. And when a woman shuts herself off from receiving, especially in her marraige when it comes to the many things her husband really does do for her, she ends up starved emotionally and feeling drained.

About expectations? It's almost proverbial that to let a man know that he has let you down and doesn't meet your personal expectations just makes him feel blamed, which is a really bad state to put him in. This is one big reason "talking things out", which so many women want to do all the time, can backfire badly. Most cases where a woman claims her husband emotionally abused her, turn out to be situations where he was defending himself from feeling blamed. And talking things out is so foreign to the male psyche that it can significantly lower his testosterone levels. Not healthy, right? And how romantic can a guy be with lowered testosterone levels?

We all know the Twilight Series was a super success and nearly had a cult following. But most people don't realize that the biggest fans by far, were not teen age girls but married LDS women over the age of 50. Even middled age women long for romance and to be loved and pursued by a desirable male to the point of near obsession. But romance like this can't happen for a woman as long as her life revolves around having her own car, job, money, checking account, spa membership, and even vacations while her husband is pretty much holding down the fort at her bidding. Controlling women who take on so many masculine characteristics cannot hope to create the high gender contrast necessary for a desirable romance to blossom.

I think your average guys on the street really want to make their wives happy. They just can't change who and what they are in order to do it.

BTW, if you really are not able to give your husband or anyone else for that matter what they wants when they want it, all you have to say is "I can't".
Saying " I can't" expressed vulnerability( as long as it is really true ). Further explanations should not be necessary, can muck up the works, and at least border on being controlling.

But if your husband, or anyone else, requests something that could make you lose your personal dignity, make you overly tired ( and is not an emergency), or causes you to feel unsafe, just say " I can't ". IF you are truly coming from a place of sincere vulnerability instead of control you will only gain respect and not resentment.

But I like to keep in mind that husbands usually need love and attention the most when they deserve it the least. If I haven't wasted my emotional energy on controlling behavior, I usually have lots more feminine energy to give out, especially to my husband.

[WhereCanITurn4Peace]

My husband and I don't go out more than 2x/ yr because we don't have babysitters. Extended family will chip in is 2x/ yr. We've tried the youth in our stake and repeatedly we've had issues. I don't know if it's just our area, but the youth are pretty immature and irresponsible. Plus, babysitters are expensive. Even though my husband and I don't have to spend a dime to enjoy a date together, babysitters do cost money.

So I'm not complaining about motherhood because I'm lonely or bored. I'm saying that I do my absolute best and am exhausted. A full- time job is nowhere near the amount of time and energy I put into being a mom and a wife. I honestly don't understand how other moms do this. And it's not like there's any immediate compensation or review letting you know if you're doing things correctly. There's usually at least 1 kid who's mad at you. You don't get a paycheck that says "hey, your child vomited all over you last night, so we're paying you overtime." I have no way of knowing if in 20 yrs my child will be resentful for something I messed up today.
So I feel lost. Am I doing a good job? I have no idea. Am I trying my best? Definitely. Is my best good enough? I guess I'll find out in 20 years ;)

Thanks for your advice. Are you of the opinion that motherhood just comes naturally and is wonderful and easy as long as you do it right? Because that's what they told me in young women's.

However one sister I respect told me that for those who do it right, motherhood is actually really difficult. [/color]

Hi butterfly,

You sound like such a great Mom! One idea I'd like to share is how much the adversary uses guilt & shame to harm us. I see this strongly in my own sister's life and have shared these same thoughts with her numerous times. He seeks to use both our weaknesses and strengths against us. One of women's greatest roles is that of Mother and it is very apparent to me the adversary has many tricks to divide and destroy.

Pray for protection and see your great worth! :ymhug:

Are there any mommy groups you can get involved in? Sometimes it helps to have others around, so you can have regular adult interaction and conversation (besides your spouse)...not to mention you create a kind of sisterhood where you serve one another (like babysitting).

[Sarah]

I think what you're saying is that being feminine is basically using all those great qualities, like persuasion, meekness, gentleness, love, kindness etc. and I would agree. The opposite is being controlling. Telling others what to do, expecting something from their husbands. But in the post you imply that it is okay that the husbands have expectations for the wives, and the wives should just meet those expectations. So is it okay to have expectations for your husband then, if it is okay for the husbands to have expectations for the wives? What expectations are reasonable? Is love really about doing what someone expects you to do, or is love about free-will giving. Expectations are fine as long as they are agreed upon and are specific. We can say as a couple that we agree that the husband will do his best to provide a house and food for the family, and the wife will forgo working to have children. The reward each get are the children. They each are blessed to become a mother and father in this exchange.

My point was that I think many women turn controlling, or have expectations for their husbands, in response to their husband's controlling nature and expectations. I imagine that in the Amish community, the Amish men are a lot less attuned to their own wants than the modern man. The Amish man has not been exposed to all the messages that women will always be excited to give you what you want. I'm sure there is less mentality of entitlement, less neediness, less laziness, no time watching sports, and the Amish men actually spend more time with their families. No wonder the Amish women are so happy!

Your post isn't really connecting with what I meant. I am not good at teaching or explaining, I know. Let's see what I can do to make what I said more clear (ha ha!)
First off, I definately agree with you that a wife has every reason to expect her husband will do his best to fulfill the role of provider. But that said, she doesn't have the right to expect a certain standard of living above and beyond providing the necessities and maybe a little bit more. To expect this is called "controlling". It often manifests itself in phrases like " I had to work because we don't have enough retirement". It sounds self self sacrificing, but what she really means is that there is not enough retirement for HER.

In attempting to explain that a little bit better ( I hope!). Controlling behaviour in women is an 'I'm OK, but you are not OK" psychological stance, and is constant and ongoing ( it's not just about the marraige relationship ). It is based in the most basic instinct a woman has-the survival instinct, and is so very prevalent today, and I think I said I believe it to be the number one cause of divorce.

The opposite of controlling behaviour is not the nice traits up there you mention in the first line of your post, or at least not directly. The opposite of controlling behaviour in women and the most basic definition of femininity is VULNERABILITY. This is the across-the-board-true-for-all-cultures-timespans and peoples just everywhere and anywhere. Now, depending on environment, politics, history, cultural and survival needs, etc, this vulnerability translates into many different ideals, hence the reason so many posts on this forum insist that all gender roles are merely "social constructs", but there really is a basis for it all. A womans' basic femininity is based in her vulnerability.

When a woman is controlling, in a nutshell her underlying motivation is to protect herself from becoming vulnerable. Which is too bad because vulnerability, to a man, is her most attractive trait, motivating him to protect her, emotionally connect with her and really "get" her, and provide for the her and the babies. Being controlling gets in the way of all that. Translating and honing female vulnerability can become an artform that releases a great deal of tension and frees up more time and energy for herself and everything else in her life. Amish women, or any other women who is not afraid to reveal her vulnerability, aren't happy because their husbands give them more attention ( although that's very good ). Their husbands give them more attention because they are happy. It isn't what someone like this "has" that makes her happy, but because of what she "is" she attracts to her life nicer and better quality relationships with men ( and everybody else for that matter, hence very little need for "boundaries"

I don't have time right now, but maybe later, and if anyone is interested, I will come back here and show other ways controlling behaviour manifests itself in women's lives on a day to day basis, and how it gets in the way of their happiness, and how vulnerability also manifests itself, to show how different the results are.
'

It is a good post and I would like to hear more of how you see things. Your thoughts remind me of what is presented in Fascinating Womanhood. That book gave me some hope as a young married, but ultimately I had to discover some deeper truths than the notion that a woman who needs a man is attractive. What do you do to be vulnerable? Can you give some concrete examples of what you mean by vulnerability? You mention that a vulnerable woman is happy, but that is not the definition of vulnerable. I agree wholeheartedly that the number one thing a woman can do to attract all good things is to be happy. And so, yes, we need to need each other, but we also need to have the right motivation behind our requests and expectations. Our need or vulnerability I think should manifest itself in requests that allow the other to choose. Not expecting or demanding that a person meet your need.

I think we are choosing different words to basically describe the same problem. I just use the word "expectations" to describe how someone tries to control one's life or another person. But I also call it "selfishness," when one spouse feels entitled to receive something at his or her spouse's expense, and communicates this through disappointment and resentment.

Earlier in the thread an example was given that a woman might give quality time hoping she would get quality time in return. That seemed to be a turn-off to the man. The gift the woman gave came across as a request, and he could sense that by her desire for quality time in return. So this woman needed her man, but went about the wrong way trying to get what she wanted. Men do the same thing. They think they are giving a gift of love when they give physical affection, but the woman can sense that their gift is really a request by how they act if the woman doesn't respond in they way they want. This expectation masked as a love gift turn's off the woman, and she starts to resent his expectations.

And the other example - how does a woman respond to a man who rolls his eyes when she asks for help? I would say, make sure you are asking for the right reason - request when you know your man will appreciate your request. If he gives signs that he doesn't like your requests for help, then stop requesting, and give him more freedom again until he comes into balance and feels like helping. If he doesn't ever want to help you, then that is when you stop giving as much, and just kindly explain that you have so much to do if and when he requests things from you.

So how does a woman respond to a man when he rolls his eyes when she asks for help?

Off the top of my head, my take on problem here is to say that most men want to be treated with respect. Treating your husband with respect is so important to him, it could probably be said to be the number one aphrodisiac on the block. A man must feel respected if he is to connect with you on an intimate basis. Respect from a wife means she understands that He and he alone wants to decide how he uses his time and energy and be self directed and independent in doing so, and he wants his needs for self care and personal rejuvenation to be respected and uppermost in the mind of his wife.

To ask for help is just that, simply asking, and that's all. But requests move into the realm of control when you starts to dictate to your husband how how you want him to do something for you, when you wants it done, and why he has to do it, etc etc.

We aren't choosing different words to describe the same problem. In LDS jargon, the word "perfectionism" is often used in place for the word "control" although that word doesn't really quite cut it. ( there is nothing really wrong with being a perfectionist. It is just a nicer word than "control" and lets women shift the blame for their behaviour on their mother, the church, or someone else ) Controlling women are very closed--the opposite of vulnerable. Instead of simply receiving what her husband does do for her, she closes him off and shuts him down because somehow what he did just wasn't what she wanted. Ever complimented a woman just to have her dismiss your admiration with something like , "O, this old dress?" or " what I did wasn't as hard as it looked", "My hair isn't really so nice because....." Instead of just saying "thank you." This kind of woman might think she feels unworthy of the compliment, but in reality she has an underlying agenda to stay in control.

That's because receiving from others is the ultimate act of letting go of control. And when a woman shuts herself off from receiving, especially in her marraige when it comes to the many things her husband really does do for her, she ends up starved emotionally and feeling drained.

About expectations? It's almost proverbial that to let a man know that he has let you down and doesn't meet your personal expectations just makes him feel blamed, which is a really bad state to put him in. This is one big reason "talking things out", which so many women want to do all the time, can backfire badly. Most cases where a woman claims her husband emotionally abused her, turn out to be situations where he was defending himself from feeling blamed. And talking things out is so foreign to the male psyche that it can significantly lower his testosterone levels. Not healthy, right? And how romantic can a guy be with lowered testosterone levels?

We all know the Twilight Series was a super success and nearly had a cult following. But most people don't realize that the biggest fans by far, were not teen age girls but married LDS women over the age of 50. Even middled age women long for romance and to be loved and pursued by a desirable male to the point of near obsession. But romance like this can't happen for a woman as long as her life revolves around having her own car, job, money, checking account, spa membership, and even vacations while her husband is pretty much holding down the fort at her bidding. Controlling women who take on so many masculine characteristics cannot hope to create the high gender contrast necessary for a desirable romance to blossom.

I think your average guys on the street really want to make their wives happy. They just can't change who and what they are in order to do it.

BTW, if you really are not able to give your husband or anyone else for that matter what they wants when they want it, all you have to say is "I can't".
Saying " I can't" expressed vulnerability( as long as it is really true ). Further explanations should not be necessary, can muck up the works, and at least border on being controlling.

But if your husband, or anyone else, requests something that could make you lose your personal dignity, make you overly tired ( and is not an emergency), or causes you to feel unsafe, just say " I can't ". IF you are truly coming from a place of sincere vulnerability instead of control you will only gain respect and not resentment.

But I like to keep in mind that husbands usually need love and attention the most when they deserve it the least. If I haven't wasted my emotional energy on controlling behavior, I usually have lots more feminine energy to give out, especially to my husband.

I completely agree with your post. I know very intimately a woman who is exactly as you are describing:

"Controlling behaviour in women is an 'I'm OK, but you are not OK" psychological stance, and is constant and ongoing ( it's not just about the marraige relationship )."

Controlling women are very closed--the opposite of vulnerable. Instead of simply receiving what her husband does do for her, she closes him off and shuts him down because somehow what he did just wasn't what she wanted. Ever complimented a woman just to have her dismiss your admiration with something like , "O, this old dress?" or " what I did wasn't as hard as it looked", "My hair isn't really so nice because....." Instead of just saying "thank you." This kind of woman might think she feels unworthy of the compliment, but in reality she has an underlying agenda to stay in control.

That's because receiving from others is the ultimate act of letting go of control. And when a woman shuts herself off from receiving, especially in her marraige when it comes to the many things her husband really does do for her, she ends up starved emotionally and feeling drained.

A woman I know is exactly like this. She never asks for the things she needs or wants, but makes little comments to hint at what she wants you to give her, but she is not humble enough to ask. She expects that if you really loved her, you would just give to her what she wanted and needed, and so she comes across as feeling like she expects things from you, and has an attitude of entitlement. But deeper down I think it is a victim mentality. She justifies her rejection of others' gifts, and is very ungrateful for any compliment or any gift she receives, because she feels like others do not really love her. She feels taken advantage by everyone, and so to not feel that way, she tries to stay "in control" as you would say, by not requesting or needing anything. Not only does she not want to be disappointed, but she doesn't want others to feel like she owes them anything. Because SHE is the victim, and wants others to give to her, her worst fear is that someone else will feel because they have given to her, they deserve something from her, and she does not want to give to that person because that person does not really love her.

I feel really sorry for her because she has no self-esteem, and I think she is an extreme case, but I can see how other women exhibit the same behaviors, including how I had some of these same feelings previously in my marriage.

How did this woman I know get this way? I know it started with not feeling love from her father, but I think it was complicated with years and years of not feeling true love from her husband. This woman resented doing things for her husband, but he made it clear what he wanted and expected, (or he might of asked) but she felt that she could never say no, and so she went through life feeling like a victim of her husband's and others' expectations.

The one point I am trying to get across is that for a woman like this to break out of this cycle, not only does she need to see how she is acting selfishly and in fear and not out of love, but she needs to recognize and forgive the ways her husband made her feel like she was expected to give to him, and sacrifice for him, and not be afraid of loosing his love by saying no to his selfish wants. Yes, we need to respect a man and his needs, but a man also needs to respect a woman and her needs, and not expect her to sacrifice, or to give more than she receives. And it is my strong belief that a woman who becomes this way is doing so in response to feeling controlled herself. She feel expectations from others, and begins to do everything grudgingly, because she feels controlled, or that her agency is lost.

We need to recognize that there are different ways of conveying expectations - you can verbalize them and state what you want, you can give a love gift with the expectation of receiving one in return (this makes your gift a request or expectation), or you can withhold giving love to punish someone for not getting what you want All these behaviors convey expectation or control over someone else. My hope is that men and women will recognize how they each do these things, and that women can see how their husbands are conveying expectations even if their husbands don't verbalize them. In fact, asking for what you want takes a lot more humility that simply expecting something. So I think we need to not just say to the woman - "start giving and receiving to your man." The man is part of the problem, and reason she has become this way. She has to recognize why she feels the way she does, forgive him, and change her behavior so she stops feeling taken advantage of. And from experience, I know that it is through the grace of the Savior that we can forgive and feel true love from Him that will enable us to make these changes.