The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
Post Reply

What do the scriptures teach us about the earth?

The Earth is a globe.
66
67%
The Earth is Flat like a terrarium (a dome).
14
14%
The Earth is a globe and hollow.
15
15%
The Earth is Flat and hollow.
3
3%
 
Total votes: 98
User avatar
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by shadow »

Robin Hood wrote:
shadow wrote:
cayenne wrote: so whats not true lol
The earth being flat is not true. One cannot discover it's flat because it's not flat. Science proved this before rockets. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to prove that the earth is a globe.
Go ahead then.
Prove it's a globe. And when I say "prove it's a globe" I mean you prove it's a globe.
Not interested in you quoting what someone else thinks they know.
I am interested in your own observations.
Well, I can't see Mt. Everest using my powerful telescope but I can see the rings of Saturn :-? #-o

Anyone care to answer my earlier questions? husbandofkitkat?? Anyone???

cayenne
captain of 100
Posts: 758

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by cayenne »

shadow wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:
shadow wrote:
cayenne wrote: so whats not true lol
The earth being flat is not true. One cannot discover it's flat because it's not flat. Science proved this before rockets. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to prove that the earth is a globe.
Go ahead then.
Prove it's a globe. And when I say "prove it's a globe" I mean you prove it's a globe.
Not interested in you quoting what someone else thinks they know.
I am interested in your own observations.
Well, I can't see Mt. Everest using my powerful telescope but I can see the rings of Saturn :-? #-o

Anyone care to answer my earlier questions? husbandofkitkat?? Anyone???

cayenne
captain of 100
Posts: 758

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by cayenne »

Shadow, when I get home later tonight I have a video for u that I think answers your first question well enough. By the way who is husband of KitKat? Did I miss something?

User avatar
SempiternalHarbinger
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1982
Location: Salt Lake City, Ut

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by SempiternalHarbinger »

Kitkat wrote:Please refrain from simply coming to this thread to make blanket statements. Address the evidences against what is being presented, make your case.
I was agreeing and responding to an old friends post. Nothing more. We are indifferent on this topic and that is fine.
Last edited by SempiternalHarbinger on February 17th, 2017, 1:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10813
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by larsenb »

shadow wrote: . . . . Maybe you're not aware but people figured out the earth was a globe looooong before NASA or even the USA came into existence.
Yup. This thread is truly astonishing.

User avatar
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by shadow »

cayenne wrote: By the way who is husband of KitKat? Did I miss something?
kitkat is the wife of brotherofmahonri. He was banned for unruly behavior and excessive false prophecies (I made that last one up :)) ) so now he posts under his wifes name, which is fine by me, I wasn't a fan of banning him in the first place.

User avatar
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by shadow »

cayenne wrote:Shadow, when I get home later tonight I have a video for u that I think answers your first question well enough.
Awesome! I can't wait to see how the laws of physics are broken B-)
To be clear, we're talking about the distance between two points, right? I even gave you the cities to figure out. Please don't just reference a video, I'd like to see you try to walk us through it.

cayenne
captain of 100
Posts: 758

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by cayenne »

shadow wrote:
cayenne wrote:Shadow, when I get home later tonight I have a video for u that I think answers your first question well enough.
Awesome! I can't wait to see how the laws of physics are broken B-)
To be clear, we're talking about the distance between two points, right? I even gave you the cities to figure out. Please don't just reference a video, I'd like to see you try to walk us through it.

Shadow, this is your quote from earlier below:

"Can anyone explain a sunset to me on a flat earth? if the sun sets at the horizon, and it does, then shouldn't that be proof that the earth is a globe? On a flat earth the sun wouldn't set at the horizon as it got further away from your current location, it would simply get smaller and smaller until it disappeared in the sky. And even if it did set at the horizon, it would be very small compared to the size at noon day. We know the sun is the same size from sunrise to sunset. More proof that the earth is a globe. We can talk about constellations next, but lets first discuss distances on a flat earth vs. on a globe and then sunrises and sunsets. I'm still waiting for the husbandofkitkat to answer the first question, so I don't want to get ahead of myself, although I like to stay ahead of the curve. Pun intended."

I believe you are waiting for husband of kit Kat to answer the distance question. I am confused as to what your first question was as I go back a re-read what you wrote. I thought it was on sunrise and sunsets.

Yes, I am going to send a video, as you did not say who you wanted to explain the sunrise/set with. The man in this video does a fine job, and I hope you watch it. I have a feeling from experience in other subjects with people that you have made up your mind the flat earth is 100% garbage, and therefore it would be a waste of all of our time to walk you through things. It is more efficient to defer you to someone else who has already done great work in a video (and giving them some good credit), and if that does not cause you to question even 1% than indeed walking you through it would waste everyone's time. (key point you did earlier was mocking, even if it was supposedly done in harmless fun, it is that exact behavior I have dealt with for years from various people that lets me know you (like them) are 100% against whatever we are discussing)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Kl5T1Ob6M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cayenne
captain of 100
Posts: 758

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by cayenne »

I am curious from the people who are so sure the flat earth is totally bunk. How do you all have supposedly such a firm belief the earth is just what the big government says it is? If it is because God told you, good and done, your set. If its scriptures that told you that Is great (although I think this subject is debatable in the good books, and the scriptures seem to really like the dome concept)

Is it modern science that convinces you? If so, why? I don't know any one who has been to space, do you? I don't know any genius mathamaticians who would be the only ones to qualify at interpreting the supposed mathematical proof of a round earth, do you? Do we take it on faith that what were taught from school, things like gravity, etc, are all true? How do you know what you were taught about space is true?

As for the few mockers out there. Why do it? In my experience mockers are almost always on the false side. ( I have dealt with hundreds of them over the years mainly in theological subjects..think anti-mormons)

Anyhow, there is more than enough info out there to study all sides. I will continue to try to learn more about this subject. I think to swallow the big governments story hook line and sinker on this subject and many other subjects is very unwise though. (especially when they keep getting caught in their lies over and over)...I am certainly not 100% sure what the shape of the earth is, so it is surprising that so many say they just know it for sure and yet have they ever really looked at the other sides evidence, most don't....I mean really look, not just read a couple paragraphs, watch a 2 minute clip and be done, thats not research....unless God tells you ofcourse.

Ungläubige
captain of 50
Posts: 95

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by Ungläubige »

cayenne wrote:
shadow wrote:
cayenne wrote:Shadow, when I get home later tonight I have a video for u that I think answers your first question well enough.
Awesome! I can't wait to see how the laws of physics are broken B-)
To be clear, we're talking about the distance between two points, right? I even gave you the cities to figure out. Please don't just reference a video, I'd like to see you try to walk us through it.

Shadow, this is your quote from earlier below:

"Can anyone explain a sunset to me on a flat earth? if the sun sets at the horizon, and it does, then shouldn't that be proof that the earth is a globe? On a flat earth the sun wouldn't set at the horizon as it got further away from your current location, it would simply get smaller and smaller until it disappeared in the sky. And even if it did set at the horizon, it would be very small compared to the size at noon day. We know the sun is the same size from sunrise to sunset. More proof that the earth is a globe. We can talk about constellations next, but lets first discuss distances on a flat earth vs. on a globe and then sunrises and sunsets. I'm still waiting for the husbandofkitkat to answer the first question, so I don't want to get ahead of myself, although I like to stay ahead of the curve. Pun intended."

I believe you are waiting for husband of kit Kat to answer the distance question. I am confused as to what your first question was as I go back a re-read what you wrote. I thought it was on sunrise and sunsets.

Yes, I am going to send a video, as you did not say who you wanted to explain the sunrise/set with. The man in this video does a fine job, and I hope you watch it. I have a feeling from experience in other subjects with people that you have made up your mind the flat earth is 100% garbage, and therefore it would be a waste of all of our time to walk you through things. It is more efficient to defer you to someone else who has already done great work in a video (and giving them some good credit), and if that does not cause you to question even 1% than indeed walking you through it would waste everyone's time. (key point you did earlier was mocking, even if it was supposedly done in harmless fun, it is that exact behavior I have dealt with for years from various people that lets me know you (like them) are 100% against whatever we are discussing)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Kl5T1Ob6M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Did you watch the video? What about it do you find compelling?

you realize, of course, that in the demo at the 7:30 mark - the camera is below the surface of the table, right? how does that demonstrate the sun disappearing over a flat earth? It only demonstrates the sun disappearing behind an obstruction - like the horizon of a round earth, or in this case the edge of the table.

Do the same demo yourself. I did. I saw the coins across the entire surface (and my counter top was longer than his table)
Capture1.JPG
Capture1.JPG (43.74 KiB) Viewed 1493 times
Capture2.JPG
Capture2.JPG (14.3 KiB) Viewed 1493 times
Capture3.JPG
Capture3.JPG (15.35 KiB) Viewed 1493 times
There is plenty more to pick apart in this video if you would like to explore it further.

User avatar
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by shadow »

cayenne wrote:
Yes, I am going to send a video, as you did not say who you wanted to explain the sunrise/set with. The man in this video does a fine job, and I hope you watch it. I have a feeling from experience in other subjects with people that you have made up your mind the flat earth is 100% garbage, and therefore it would be a waste of all of our time to walk you through things. It is more efficient to defer you to someone else who has already done great work in a video (and giving them some good credit), and if that does not cause you to question even 1% than indeed walking you through it would waste everyone's time. (key point you did earlier was mocking, even if it was supposedly done in harmless fun, it is that exact behavior I have dealt with for years from various people that lets me know you (like them) are 100% against whatever we are discussing)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Kl5T1Ob6M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A "great video"?? Uh, no.
As has already been pointed out, nothing was level or flat. All it did was prove the scenario had an angle to it, or that the earth is curved. Do you see the same problem with how he made his video?

Another thing to note, and something I suspect other flat earth vids will share, the sunrise is behind clouds. I'll tell you why- it makes the sun look smaller. Watch some real videos of the sun rising or setting and you'll see that the sun never changes size from sun-up to sundown. If the flat earth model were true, the sun would start out small because it's further away, at it's peek it would be largest, then it would start to get smaller until it disappears or sets. The same principle exists when a car is coming towards you from a far distance. It starts small then gets bigger as it goes past you, then it gets smaller and smaller until it disappears. Of course, if the earth were flat then you could get a telescope and follow it even further. That's an issue isn't it? The sun sets or disappears at the same time no matter if you have a telescope or not. Do you see this as a problem with the flat earth theory?
Ever been on a cruise?? Why is it that after so many miles you can't even see the mountains anymore? Do telescopes cease to work when looking parallel? No, it's because of the curvature of the earth. That's why you can't see Hawaii from California, but you can see Saturn's rings. Heck, you should be able to see the Tetons from Nebraska. But you can't because the earth has a curvature.

Do you see the same flaws in the video or do you take it as being credible? If it's credible then walk me through it. I'm game.

braingrunt
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2042

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by braingrunt »

One of the things that convinces me most that there is nothing in this flat earth idea, are the countless flawed explanations for things like constant angular velocity of the sun, sunrise and sunset positions, coriolis, tides, etc. After so many failed attempts, I'm convinced they are trying to pin a tail on a holographic donkey.
And many of the videos out there are so mortifyingly bad that I'm embarrassed and my heart sinks. Yet, for the most part, I have tried to stay respectful in this debate.
Plus I believe the BOM.

There is only ONE class of videos out there which have any credibility left with me, and those are the water curvature experiments. I do not know what, if anything they've done wrong in them. So far I haven't checked their math. But I posted a video which I think shows a counterexample to theirs, a few posts back. One way I view it as superior to SOME of the other videos out there, is that it's on a lake which is largely unaffected by tides which may throw the water out of level (by how much if any I don't know.)

And I don't say that space agencies have been honest all the time. Maybe some or all moon videos were faked. Maybe some of those vids are underwater. That whole class of arguments is completely irrelevant to me. But I believe we have satellites up there. The evidence for that, to me, seems good. :)

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by Robin Hood »

I make it a rule that I will not post videos, no matter how convincing.
There are two reasons for this.
1. I don't know how to post videos.
2. I run the risk of abdicating my critical thinking and replacing it with someone else's.

There are a lot of very convincing videos out there, on both sides of the argument. The problem as I see it is that proponents of both views are, for the most part, seriously polarized in their positions.
Instead of reacting to a video that clearly demonstrates it is possible to see ships, islands, cities etc when they should be obscured by hundreds of feet of curvature in an inquisitive way, they will counter-act with a video showing a spacewalk. Thus both positions talk past each other.

I take a more moderate position.
Does a city 60 miles away and clearly seen across water demonstrate that the curvature is optically absent? Of course it does. Is this proof the earth is flat? No it isn't. It's evidence that our understanding of what we should and shouldn't experience is mistaken. In other words we, meaning human beings, have made inaccurate assumptions.
The tragedy is that we defend those assumptions as if they were our own personal property.

For me, I observe that the sun appears to pass overhead, as does the moon. The stars appear to move in a perfectly circular rotation and without any variation in the night sky. The earth on which I stand appears to be motionless and when I fly from the UK to the US or Canada the flight times appear to contradict the coriolis effect.
But I do not describe myself as a flat-earther. This is because I accept that there are other explanations for some of these things. I don't know for sure if those explanations are correct and, to be frank, no one does.
Some think they know, but that isn't the same thing.

Some scientists have recently theorized that we are actually experiencing a Matrix type simulation. That nothing is "real" in the traditional sense.
In such a universe anything, including a whole spectrum of contradictions, are to be expected.
Last edited by Robin Hood on February 16th, 2017, 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ungläubige
captain of 50
Posts: 95

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by Ungläubige »

From my viewpoint, the 'globe' model of the earth and it's relation to the solar system is the best for explaining: the path of the sun, the path of the moon, moon phases, the differing motion of the stars in each hemisphere (star trails), the seasons, lunar and solar eclipses, and many other observable phenomena. Can anyone on here describe a 'flat earth' model that can explain and predict ALL of the above, or provide a link to one that does?

I have also first hand experience with GPS devices and satellite television dishes - in both heavily developed and in remote locations. These are direct evidence that there are satellites in the sky orbiting a 'global' earth. Basic math and physics concepts can explain how these satellites can stay in orbit around the earth for many years without unlimited fuel for propulsion. Many different governments and private agencies have put satellites into orbit. Are there credible 'flat earth' explanations for placing and keeping satellites in the sky?

I also have an app on my smart phone that shows the path of the ISS around the 'globe'. It orbits approximately every 92 minutes and this app shows its position above the earth at any given time - and predicts its path for days in advance. It will display the times and exact locations in the sky to observe the ISS from your own location. Twice this week, I was able to be outside at the right times and with clear enough skies to observe the ISS travelling across the sky. I even took a screen shot of the app and a night vision photo of it with my iphone. Anyone, anywhere on the earth can do this. There is definitely an object up there on a predictable trajectory travelling at a high rate of speed. I would love to see a map or model of a 'flat earth' and the corresponding path of the ISS that would allow it to be tracked over any point on the earth on a predictable schedule.

Show me a reasonable alternative to a 'global' earth that works for the above cases, and I'll consider it.

User avatar
Durzan
The Lord's Trusty Maverick
Posts: 3728
Location: Standing between the Light and the Darkness.

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by Durzan »

The earth isn't flat. We live on a donut shaped world! (/jk)

braingrunt
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2042

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by braingrunt »

Robin Hood wrote: Does a city 60 miles away and clearly seen across water demonstrate that the curvature is optically absent? Of course it does.
The most important question in that scenario, what is the height of the observer above sea level, and what is the height of the other city above sea level.

I'll admit the following:
My calculations, if correct, tell me that
IF the viewer is at sea level
IF the other city is precisely at sea level (of course it's going to be a little above at least)
IF the light does not refract
THEN about 1200 ft of the other location should be hidden. Thats alot. But you'd have to work hard to convince me of at least the height variables and how much if any discrepancy there is. This would be a challenge because you'd have to calculate the height of the visible portion and compare it to reliable elevation and total height data.

User avatar
Durzan
The Lord's Trusty Maverick
Posts: 3728
Location: Standing between the Light and the Darkness.

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by Durzan »

On a more serious note, I have flown to England and Back no problem... and Likewise my dad has flown to the Philippines multiple times. If that combined with all the stuff NASA does doesn't prove the earth is round, then I'll be a monkey's uncle (Jokes on you, I am an only child, so that is impossible, unless my dad decides its funny to literally adopt a couple of monkeys)

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5247

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by Silver »

Durzan wrote:On a more serious note, I have flown to England and Back no problem... and Likewise my dad has flown to the Philippines multiple times. If that combined with all the stuff NASA does doesn't prove the earth is round, then I'll be a monkey's uncle (Jokes on you, I am an only child, so that is impossible, unless my dad decides its funny to literally adopt a couple of monkeys)
Where, pray tell, is the country Back?

If your dad adopts a couple of monkeys (not sure why it would require more than one since the apostrophe in "monkey's uncle" precedes the "s"), said monkeys would be your brothers or sisters, not your nephews. For you to be a monkey's uncle, one of your siblings would have to give birth to or adopt a monkey which you have stated is not possible given your only child status. However, of even greater impossibility is the very utterance of "Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle." by any truthful life form as the lower orders of primates have not developed the requisite speech capability, other than those in the movie called The Beginning of the Origin of the Start of the Planet of the Apes or something like that.

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by Robin Hood »

Durzan wrote:On a more serious note, I have flown to England and Back no problem... and Likewise my dad has flown to the Philippines multiple times. If that combined with all the stuff NASA does doesn't prove the earth is round, then I'll be a monkey's uncle (Jokes on you, I am an only child, so that is impossible, unless my dad decides its funny to literally adopt a couple of monkeys)
Not sure why flying to England (aka the promised land) and back proves the earth is spherical. :-\

cayenne
captain of 100
Posts: 758

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by cayenne »

Your funny durzan, gave me a needed chuckle.

Something I am trying to figure out is the air routes. First off if you look at a variety of round earth maps many of the dimensions seem off. For example England on some round earth maps appears way way larger than it really is compared to the United States in return is way smaller than it should be. The same goes for the typical Flat Earth Map you Google. The dimensions to me are obviously way off. Being that we have a mapping problem across the board the Northern Hemisphere flight routes favor a flat Earth map and the southern hemisphere routes favor a round Earth map from what we can pull up on google for example. It's funny to me that both models show the United States way smaller than it should be and europe way bigger. How how about Greenland laugh out loud.

Anyhow, since my family member flies commercially across the Pacific and the Atlantic I have asked him about his routes. When he flies from Los Angeles to Hong Kong for example on a round Earth Map traveling way up to Alaska and then way down to Hong Kong is ridiculously out of route but that's how they fly. The same can be said for a route from Miami to London... the typical route flies way up over Canada when on a globe model a straight line across the middle of the Atlantic is much closer. Yet on a flat Earth Map you can see those routes are much much closer using a straight line on the flat map which is how they actually fly it.

Now the southern hemisphere creates a problem for the flat map when you're flying from Australia to South America. So we have each model in my opinion is favored for different things. I certainly will not discount the Flat Earth model because flight travel across the southern hemisphere from Australia to South America. I certainly will not discount the round earth model because flights are going seemingly way out of route in the northern hemisphere. So now the question I'm having is the mapping programs that we have obviously have problems with the dimentions that's what I need to figure out with the Flat Earth model and round.

This is fun for me, I hope it is for you all to.... and since I am a theologian not a scientist I certainly cannot answer many things yet on this, and I am not taking this too seriously if you know what I mean in proper context. Something is going here and yes NASA is full of lies, but why

User avatar
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by shadow »

Robin Hood wrote:
Durzan wrote:On a more serious note, I have flown to England and Back no problem... and Likewise my dad has flown to the Philippines multiple times. If that combined with all the stuff NASA does doesn't prove the earth is round, then I'll be a monkey's uncle (Jokes on you, I am an only child, so that is impossible, unless my dad decides its funny to literally adopt a couple of monkeys)
Not sure why flying to England (aka the promised land) and back proves the earth is spherical. :-\
Why is the south pole always getting the same amount of light from the sun depending on the time of year on a global earth? For example, in the winter, the sun always shines but in the summer there are times when the sun never shines. It's applied all across the region all at once. If one part is getting light then, depending on clouds, the rest of the south pole is getting light. How can that be possible with the flat earth theory?
flat earthers are behind the curve
flat earthers are behind the curve
th6L21H6JK.jpg (17.67 KiB) Viewed 1305 times
Last edited by shadow on February 16th, 2017, 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by shadow »

cayenne wrote: For example England on some round earth maps appears way way larger than it really is compared to the United States
The English feel they need to compensate for something I guess.

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5247

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by Silver »

Not only is the earth flat, it's dark.
flat earth.jpg
flat earth.jpg (47.54 KiB) Viewed 1302 times

cayenne
captain of 100
Posts: 758

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by cayenne »

shadow wrote:
cayenne wrote: For example England on some round earth maps appears way way larger than it really is compared to the United States
The English feel they need to compensate for something I guess.
LoL

User avatar
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Post by shadow »

cayenne wrote:The same can be said for a route from Miami to London... the typical route flies way up over Canada when on a globe model a straight line across the middle of the Atlantic is much closer. Yet on a flat Earth Map you can see those routes are much much closer using a straight line on the flat map which is how they actually fly it.
They don't fly "way over Canada" and the latitude of Canada and London are about the same so it makes sense a plane would fly up that way.
map.gif
map.gif (15.09 KiB) Viewed 1299 times
map.gif
map.gif (15.09 KiB) Viewed 1299 times
Attachments
untitled (2).png
untitled (2).png (562.61 KiB) Viewed 1299 times

Post Reply