The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

[Kitkat]

I have created another video on the path of the sun moon and stars. It's basically a replacement for my "Flat Vs Globe earth" video I posted before. I think it makes some important points more clearly, but it's the same subject.

Watching your video. Well done. Nice work with Blender. An honest and respectful as far as I can tell, approach. Thank you for that authenticity, authenticity that we find is SUPER RARE amongst the majority of the LDS on this forum. Refreshing for sure! Way to live up to the gospel in this.

Onto your video experiment. The sun rising and setting on flat earth. Keep in mind you are North of the Equator. Help me understand how you explain what this guy shows us - as you can't say everyone on the globe will see the sun rise 90 degree east and set 270 degrees west.. (Super annoying voice and way he talks about it, but nonetheless answers your experiment from my understanding).

Watch this video in it's entirety - an invite to address each point.

Video Summary...

... illustrates how the 90° E "sunrise" & the 270° W "sunset" headings on the Equinoxes appear to be either very misleading, or worse: an outright hoax.

We are told that sun headings are calculated based on the position of the observer on the ground (not from the sun's position in the sky).

Chippy uses the "globe model" to show how a possible sun-heading deception might be working - especially on the so-called "equinoxes", when we're told that everyone on earth will see the sun "rising" (coming into view) at a heading of 90° East & the sun "setting" (going out of view) at a heading of 270° West.

Well, for starters, this simply isn't true. If you check places in the extreme northern & southern latitudes - they are slightly off these headings - and if you check the south pole - well, good luck w/those headings... lol

Chippy shows that on the "globe model" (using G00gle Earth) - the sun's 90° E & 270° W headings are BOTH inexplicably pointing directly to the equator, which does not match up AT ALL w/the latitude of the observer.

So, it appears that LATITUDE has NOTHING to do with sun headings (once you go more than a couple hundred miles away in either direction E or W). It seems that only N & S are true directions that match w/the longitude of the observer on the ground.

The alleged equinox sun headings actually appear to make more sense when looking at them plotted out on the Gleason Map!

This is NOT to say that the Gleason Map IS THE FE MODEL. At this point, we're ALL still trying to figure out what is and isn't going on!

It's also quite possible that nobody can truly understand what's fully going on (with the limitations of our five senses).

Furthermore, anyone "debunking" the Gleason Map - I would ask: have you also read & debunked his 402 page FLAT EARTH BOOK? Gleason cites plenty of Scripture to make his case in support of an immovable circular flat earth.

Job 26: 10 (KJV) "He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end."

We are along the lines of this guy's understanding. We're ALL still trying to figure out what is and isn't going on!

[Kitkat]

We've found that Chippy's videos are really solid in helping one understand why in the world intelligent people would believe the earth is flat (Besides the spiritual points mentioned in this thread in that God is inviting us to understand His created land under the firmament).

Some interesting ones that add to our belief and knowledge that the globe earth is a hoax and doesn't measure up.

An invite as always to debunk, explain, or educate us all on these topics... Even Chippy in the videos states the same.

www.SunEarthTools.com is a website that uses heliocentric data to show the path of the sun (allegedly) for any given location on earth. This is a useful tool to help determine where to position solar panels for solar energy.

However, if we believe that the sun is doing what the globe folks claim it is, then there should also be a 3 to 3.5 month long "midnight sun" that is seen by folks living south of the Antarctic Circle (south polar region) for the months near the December Solstice. There's really no incontrovertible evidence of a 24-hour Antarctic sun... but there are thousands upon thousands of regular folks who live north of the Arctic Circle. These folks know that the sun is above the horizon for up to 3.5 months each year (around the June solstice).

Therefore, how can we possibly believe the sun angle data that is coming from heliocentric sources (w/the false assumption that the earth is a globe)? The answer is that we cannot possibly accept that flawed "globe data" is accurate. If you believe that, then you support the globe/heliocentric model.

Flawed globe data cannot be used to "debunk" the "circling sun" flat earth model. How can it? Tens of thousands of people live north of the Arctic Circle & they witness the 24-hour midnight sun each year.

Gleason wrote in his book that the sun is seen making an "arc" across the sky & that an arc is basically part of a circle.

The "arc" we're seeing the sun doing across the sky every single day is indicative of the sun circling around the earth's north polar center (IMHO).

Nobody can deny that folks living north of the Arctic Circle are seeing the "midnight sun" circling around & above the north polar center in the June solstice months (once per 24-hour circuit).

However, the flawed "globe" sun data we get from heliocentric websites seems to be what "disinfo agents" are running w/to claim the Gleason Map & circling sun have been debunked. Nonsense. We now have a bunch of fake FE channels w/fake views & fake subs - all spreading a bunch of BS to muddy the waters & cause division & infighting.

Sun Circling Above a Flat Earth...

[Kitkat]

Magnetic Declination...

Tropics in the Wrong place?

[Kitkat]

A break from the Chipmunk voice in videos above, a SPIRITUAL NOTE on flat earth... We believe Christ when he speaks about Satan deceiving the "world" pun intended.

God puts us in our place asking us if we were there when He set the foundations of the earth... With the Flat earth, supposing (which we believe greatly) the earth was created flat... God is not too happy about those suppressing the truth of the matter...

God speaks to Job about the earth being turned from CLAY into it's form, like a FLAT EARTH...
The earth was changed as clay to the signet ring... with a BORDER AROUND IT! "And they went up on the BREADTH OF THE EARTH"... Revelations 20:7-9

[larsenb]

If this thread isn't deliberately designed to paint Brian's forum as one inhabited by lunatics and to be avoided, it has the same effect, anyway.

[braingrunt]

Oh my gosh, that part about the Danyang-Kunshan Grand Bridge is SO BAD!!! So bad. Facepalm shaking head.
This is the Danyang bridge
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Danyang ... d32.060255
Most of it is over land terrain.
Zoom into the last part before Nanjing, that's the biggest water it crosses and is the part they have pictured. !!!It's less than a mile!!! How anybody who thought critically about that picture could believe they were looking at a 102 mile stretch of bridge is beyond me. The sad thing is many flat earthers stop thinking too soon and will accept it as earth shattering proof, when in this case and many others it's so cringeworthy that it damages their cause.

Golden gate has a longer water section.

[Kitkat]

If this thread isn't deliberately designed to paint Brian's forum as one inhabited by lunatics and to be avoided, it has the same effect, anyway.

And here is an example of potentially hardened hearts, old wine bottles currently not able to take in the new wine the Lord himself is willing to give us if we are open hearted and minded to HIS voice alone.

Debunk as you please, but to call people lunatics, you might as well join the ranks of those calling Noah a lunatic for being crazy enough to build a boat for period of 40 years because (this is where the people ROTFLMAO) the earth would flood entirely. Or those wanting to kill Lehi. Your choice, may the Lord open your tunnel vision to at least investigate, rather than just potentially believing what you are told by experts.

Intellectual honestly is sadly lacking amongst those who have the restored gospel in their lives, at least on this forum.

One would think after the CLEAR MESSAGE of conference this weekend, in particular Uchtdorf and Renlund's talks... you would have a little more spirit of love in your Heavenly Inspired ? insights shared just now... #-o

[Kitkat]

Oh my gosh, that part about the Danyang-Kunshan Grand Bridge is SO BAD!!! So bad. Facepalm shaking head.
This is the Danyang bridge
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Danyang ... d32.060255
Most of it is over land terrain.
Zoom into the last part before Nanjing, that's the biggest water it crosses and is the part they have pictured. !!!It's less than a mile!!! How anybody who thought critically about that picture could believe they were looking at a 102 mile stretch of bridge is beyond me. The sad thing is many flat earthers stop thinking too soon and will accept it as earth shattering proof, when in this case and many others it's so cringeworthy that it damages their cause.

Golden gate has a longer water section.

agreed. with these videos I hope people take the liberty to find the truths within them and smile and point out (as you have) at the bad and poorly done examples and have the maturity to allow discussion on the points within them that make sense and do indeed give evidence of a flat earth, as much as one would be willing to consider the same for a globe earth.

We're ALL still trying to figure out what is and isn't going on!

[larsenb]

If this thread isn't deliberately designed to paint Brian's forum as one inhabited by lunatics and to be avoided, it has the same effect, anyway.

And here is an example of potentially hardened hearts, old wine bottles currently not able to take in the new wine the Lord himself is willing to give us if we are open hearted and minded to HIS voice alone.

Debunk as you please, but to call people lunatics, you might as well join the ranks of those calling Noah a lunatic for being crazy enough to build a boat for period of 40 years because (this is where the people ROTFLMAO) the earth would flood entirely. Or those wanting to kill Lehi. Your choice, may the Lord open your tunnel vision to at least investigate, rather than just potentially believing what you are told by experts.

Intellectual honestly is sadly lacking amongst those who have the restored gospel in their lives, at least on this forum.

One would think after the CLEAR MESSAGE of conference this weekend, in particular Uchtdorf and Renlund's talks... you would have a little more spirit of love in your Heavenly Inspired ? insights shared just now... #-o

Intellectual honesty cuts both ways. Intellectual honesty would do a thorough survey of all the evidence for or against a global earth, and would realize that the actual evidence stacks waaaaaaaay up when compared to anything supporting what amounts to a thoroughly disprovable and disproved hypothesis.

For me, this attempt to force-fit a case for a flat earth based on Biblical passages as a starting point, is a very precarious endeavor. Why? What do the passages say in the original Hebrew? Are you sure the original author really understood the issues, or accurately expressed himself in describing them, or that the original meaning might have changed/shifted even among Hebrew speakers and transcribers, etc., etc.

It's very certain, that if you don't understand the science of a proposition thoroughly, you don't have much standing in refuting a scientific fact. And this applies as well to anyone you may be quoting who seems to support your ideas. I.e., you would have to show why each proof for the earth being a globe is wrong, and how your flat-earth 'proof' supercedes it. And you certainly won't be up to this task unless you have a fairly deep understanding of physics.

There comes a point when if there is an apparent conflict between what you THINK the Bible is saying and what science is saying, you either have to get direct revelation on this issue or you have to put it on the shelf.

[larsenb]

. . . . you might as well join the ranks of those calling Noah a lunatic for being crazy enough to build a boat for period of 40 years because (this is where the people ROTFLMAO) the earth would flood entirely. Or those wanting to kill Lehi.
. . . . .

Being skeptical regarding the claims of Nephi or Noah that they were going to build boats is in an entirely different category than disputing the existing facts supporting a globe-like earth. Do you understand the difference??

[Kitkat]

. . . . you might as well join the ranks of those calling Noah a lunatic for being crazy enough to build a boat for period of 40 years because (this is where the people ROTFLMAO) the earth would flood entirely. Or those wanting to kill Lehi.
. . . . .

Being skeptical regarding the claims of Nephi or Noah that they were going to build boats is in an entirely different category than disputing the existing facts supporting a globe-like earth. Do you understand the difference??

I may not ever understand them according to your biased views (I have my biases as well), but here we go. Existing facts of the globe-like earth. Comparable to the existing facts of the then known weather patterns, with Noah's claims to a coming end-earth flood and Noah's preaching a coming flood for 40 years. Very Comparable.

Lehi is an even better analogy IMHO. Existing facts of the church, the people of Jerusalem, how they are saved, laws, rituals, etc. at that point in time, indeed flew in the face of the "facts" supporting the "true" way to God Lehi was crying repentance about. Very applicable and yes it goes with existing facts and being willing to consider existing FACTs of a flat earth. Two contrary view points. One is very very accepted by major majority of people the other facts very very few accept and are even unwilling to consider, but dismiss as lunatic and often of the devil - (ie. Lehi and Ishmael's families)...

Who was right? Lehi, or the "evidence stack[ed] waaaaaaaay" up against Lehi's claim. This applies to all the examples, esp. Christ, the renegade Jew beautiful outlaw himself - where tradition, and facts stacked up against all Christ was doing, according to the BIAS of the jews who cried foul. (hence the super duper importance to have the spirit or bust with any evidence stacked up on any side).

The road less travelled is the pattern set by Christ. Does that mean flat earth is the road less travelled? Not necessarily. But in my view, these are very applicable to this topic. Truth being given to few willing to consider it by God, the major majority calling them lunatics. You have a bias, that feels like a tunnel vision reaction, which is traced to the brain needing to make up a story about why people would share this on the LDS freedom Forum... (see this for more about this natural human weakness: https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtop ... =1&t=45226 )

I just am glad you proved me wrong that you were willing to at respond without the "lunatic" dismissal ad hominem. Thank you for the reversal and actually discussing and expounding rather than dismissing the potential Lehi's on this topic. WE dont do this for our pleasure (posting on the forum) but we follow the counsel in that,

But ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils

Have you ASKED GOD IN THIS MATTER of the flat earth or are the FACTS and "evidence stack[ed] waaaaaaaay" too much against it, in that you have relied on the philosophies of men in all honesty in this discussion with us on this topic? Did you ask God. What did he teach you?

If you haven't asked God on this matter, are you not breaking the command to ask of God in all things and becoming susceptible to deception due to relying on the arm of flesh too much and their "stacked scientific evidences and facts" (aka philosophies of men)?

We have asked God, this is the journey he asked us to go through, of which includes sharing it here for His purposes in His work with His children.

We have enjoyed the private messages of people who are not willing to go through the abuses their fellow latter day saints subject them to in their own biased ignorance by posting publicly here, as well as the brave ones who have enough love to consider something that is outside their comfortable evidences and facts and discuss it in spite of those who are potentially pointing fingers of scorn from great and spacious building they just attended yesterday, building of potential pride of knowing waaaaaaaay to many facts about something so obvious you are a lunatic if you think otherwise, and wearing exceeding fine Sunday dress mocking those cleaving to Christ (who is a fun and willing teacher, esp. with the flat earth) pressing forward to the Love of God, and don't even realize they are doing so.

We just had a couple with their kids over for a few days (spent the night at our place). They are TBM through and through, and felt the spirit of a fun, open minded flat earth discussion. I can't stop them now from sending me books and info they are discovering as they take the command to ASK GOD IN ALL THINGS seriously, and this one is a fun one if one is willing to let God teach them as a child.

[larsenb]

. . . . If you haven't asked God on this matter, are you not breaking the command to ask of God in all things?

We have asked God, this is the journey he asked us to go through, sharing it here for His purposes in His work with His children.

God expects us to use our brains and understanding.

Let me pose the same question to you: do you ask God in all things? An example might be: do you ask God if you should really use the bathroom or when and if you should eat; or even if it's OK to use and rely on your own brain to understand a problem?

Your question easily breaks down to absurdity.

[larsenb]

. . . . you might as well join the ranks of those calling Noah a lunatic for being crazy enough to build a boat for period of 40 years because (this is where the people ROTFLMAO) the earth would flood entirely. Or those wanting to kill Lehi.
. . . . .

Being skeptical regarding the claims of Nephi or Noah that they were going to build boats is in an entirely different category than disputing the existing facts supporting a globe-like earth. Do you understand the difference??

I may not ever understand them according to your biased views (I have my biases as well), but here we go. Existing facts of the globe-like earth. Comparable to the existing facts of the then known weather patterns, with Noah's claims to a coming end-earth flood and Noah's preaching a coming flood for 40 years. Very Comparable.

Lehi is an even better analogy IMHO. Existing facts of the church, the people of Jerusalem, how they are saved, laws, rituals, etc. at that point in time, indeed flew in the face of the "facts" supporting the "true" way to God Lehi was crying repentance about. Very applicable and yes it goes with existing facts and being willing to consider existing FACTs of a flat earth. Two contrary view points. One is very very accepted by major majority of people the other facts very very few accept and are even unwilling to consider, but dismiss as lunatic and often of the devil - (ie. Lehi and Ishmael's families)...

Who was right? Lehi, or the "evidence stack[ed] waaaaaaaay" up against Lehi's claim. This applies to all the examples, esp. Christ, the renegade Jew beautiful outlaw himself - where tradition, and facts stacked up against all Christ was doing, according to the BIAS of the jews who cried foul. (hence the super duper importance to have the spirit or bust with any evidence stacked up on any side).

The road less travelled is the pattern set by Christ. Does that mean flat earth is the road less travelled? Not necessarily. But in my view, these are very applicable to this topic. Truth being given to few willing to consider it by God, the major majority calling them lunatics. You have a bias, that feels like a tunnel vision reaction, which is traced to the brain needing to make up a story about why people would share this on the LDS freedom Forum... (see this for more about this natural human weakness: https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtop ... =1&t=45226 )

I just am glad you proved me wrong that you were willing to at respond without the "lunatic" dismissal ad hominem. Thank you for the reversal and actually discussing and expounding rather than dismissing the potential Lehi's on this topic. WE dont do this for our pleasure (posting on the forum) but we follow the counsel in that,

But ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils

Have you ASKED GOD IN THIS MATTER of the flat earth or are the FACTS and "evidence stack[ed] waaaaaaaay" too much against it, in that you have relied on the philosophies of men in all honesty in this discussion with us on this topic? Did you ask God. What did he teach you?

If you haven't asked God on this matter, are you not breaking the command to ask of God in all things and becoming susceptible to deception due to relying on the arm of flesh too much and their "stacked scientific evidences and facts" (aka philosophies of men)?

We have asked God, this is the journey he asked us to go through, of which includes sharing it here for His purposes in His work with His children.

We have enjoyed the private messages of people who are not willing to go through the abuses their fellow latter day saints subject them to in their own biased ignorance by posting publicly here, as well as the brave ones who have enough love to consider something that is outside their comfortable evidences and facts.

We just had a couple with their kids over for a few days (spent the night at our place). They are TBM through and through, and felt the spirit of a fun, open minded flat earth discussion. I can't stop them now from sending me books and info they are discovering as they take the command to ASK GOD IN ALL THINGS seriously, and this one is a fun one if one is willing to let God teach them as a child.

Apologies for triggering you. It wasn't my intention.

[Kitkat]

. . . . If you haven't asked God on this matter, are you not breaking the command to ask of God in all things?

We have asked God, this is the journey he asked us to go through, sharing it here for His purposes in His work with His children.

God expects us to use our brains and understanding.

Let me pose the same question to you: do you ask God in all things? An example might be: do you ask God if you should really use the bathroom or when and if you should eat; or even if it's OK to use and rely on your own brain to understand a problem?

Your question easily breaks down to absurdity.

This is cute. A rhetorical question I don't think I need to answer, as it seems like you are not considering the point openly, but now are defending yourself with such a question.

But for your enjoyment and pondering.

We thank the Lord for every single green traffic light when our daughter is crying with a full bladder needing to go to the bathroom and we did indeed ask him to help us get to a bathroom quickly. Those little miracles are everywhere when we "ask God in ALL THINGS" which doesn't mean what your cute reply speaks to.

The point of asking God in all things is to be one with him, where you don't have to ask him, he is already a part of your every thought, need, study, insight, etc., and counsel for all decisions made.

[Kitkat]

Apologies for triggering you. It wasn't my intention.

Triggered... no. Loving you enough to call you out for your "lunacy" comment absolutely. You are better than that, and this little exercise has proven the same. We are not lunatics and you really don't believe we are do you? O:-)

invite again to watch this... our brain always makes up a story when we are lacking all the info but allow our emotions to react to someone's perspective, words, findings, etc..

https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtop ... =1&t=45226

[larsenb]

. . . . If you haven't asked God on this matter, are you not breaking the command to ask of God in all things?

We have asked God, this is the journey he asked us to go through, sharing it here for His purposes in His work with His children.

God expects us to use our brains and understanding.

Let me pose the same question to you: do you ask God in all things? An example might be: do you ask God if you should really use the bathroom or when and if you should eat; or even if it's OK to use and rely on your own brain to understand a problem?

Your question easily breaks down to absurdity.

This is cute. A rhetorical question I don't think I need to answer, as it seems like you are not considering the point openly, but now are defending yourself with such a question.

But for your enjoyment and pondering.

We thank the Lord for every single green traffic light when our daughter is crying with a full bladder needing to go to the bathroom and we did indeed ask him to help us get to a bathroom quickly. Those little miracles are everywhere when we "ask God in ALL THINGS" which doesn't mean what your cute reply speaks to.

The point of asking God in all things is to be one with him, where you don't have to ask him, he is already a part of your every thought, need, study, insight, etc., and counsel for all decisions made.

Not rhetorical. A serious question worth pondering. In the myriad things you do and the decisions involved in doing them, do you really focus on asking God about each one? I doubt it . . . but who knows? Maybe you've mastered the problem of conscious dual/myriad focus.

I can see where you can make the effort to make God and the Spirit a focus of your life. But honestly, how many times do you find yourself entirely focused on the problem or task at hand.

[Kitkat]

Not rhetorical. A serious question worth pondering. In the myriad things you do and the decisions involved in doing them, do you really focus on asking God about each one? I doubt it . . . but who knows? Maybe you've mastered the problem of conscious dual/myriad focus.

I can see where you can make the effort to make God and the Spirit a focus of your life. But honestly, how many times do you find yourself entirely focused on the problem or task at hand.

Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. ;) And no man after that durst ask him any question.

[larsenb]

Apologies for triggering you. It wasn't my intention.

Triggered... no. Loving you enough to call you out for your "lunacy" comment absolutely. You are better than that, and this little exercise has proven the same. We are not lunatics and you really don't believe we are do you? O:-)

invite again to watch this... our brain always makes up a story when we are lacking all the info but allow our emotions to react to someone's perspective, words, findings, etc..

https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtop ... =1&t=45226

You seemed to be quite upset.

So you lovingly called me out for my 'lunacy' comment? Hmmm . . . I'll have to take you at your word for that assertion.

But at the same time have you 'lovingly' contemplated anything else I've presented? Have you lovingly decided to study physics so you can really refute or understand someone else's refutation of arguments in favor of a globe-like earth? Have you lovingly understood my suggestion that unless you go back to the very original Hebrew and the very original Hebrew meaning that you might be deficient in your understanding of the scriptural passage you mentioned in your thread and use as a starting point for your flat-earth defense?

I doubt it.

Do you understand what may be my 'loving' motive for wanting to protect the reputation of Brian's forum, or what may be my loving motive for trying to get you to give up an impossible task and what really seems like a waste or your precious time??

[braingrunt]

...
Onto your video experiment. The sun rising and setting on flat earth. Keep in mind you are North of the Equator. Help me understand how you explain what this guy shows us - as you can't say everyone on the globe will see the sun rise 90 degree east and set 270 degrees west.. (Super annoying voice and way he talks about it, but nonetheless answers your experiment from my understanding).

Watch this video in it's entirety - an invite to address each point.

...

So, I watched the video. He seemed to say that phone compasses are hacked to deceive, and my first response was, well then get a physical compass if you don't trust your computer one. But to my despair he went on to suggest that physical compasses might be hacked too, via manufacturing regions. I was flabbergasted. Then I thought, well then make your own dang compass if you won't trust a manufactured one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIKkZcTkhuw
Unless you think the magnets you use to magnetize the needle are hacked as well. IF so, I'm defeated and have to ask you to take your local compass on a journey and see if it fails to point like other locally manufactured compasses. I'm virtually sure they will work just alike. Anybody here travel a lot?

Compasses are not very hackable anyway. Maybe you could magnetize in such a way as to make the needle align any particular way, BUT whatever shows as north, east and west are perpendicular to that and exactly opposite each other. You can't make east and west non-opposite without people noticing.

His measuring was goofy. Latitude lines follow East West on a compass as a continuous function. He can't skip longitudes like that without coming up with nonsense. Without preparing a long lecture, perhaps we can get to the heart of the nonsense by asking Chippy to subject his flat earth map to the same criticisms and answer them. You will still have different angles if you measure an equal latitude point near you (it'll be close to 90 deg) and and an equal latitude point far from you. Your angle will reduce dramatically, actually more dramatically than on a globe. Do you get my point? I'm not sure how I can clarify it further but am willing to try.

Equinox bearings are a topic where I wish we could just have lunch. I need my hands and a globe and a flat earth map and with those things we could really talk about how badly he's messed up.

Or does anyone feel like paying me to produce better flat earth vs round earth content as a full time job? Nah, didn't think so. A little sad because part of me would like it.

[Finrock]

What is the spiritual advantage to believing that the earth is not a globe?

-Finrock

[Kitkat]

What is the spiritual advantage to believing that the earth is not a globe?

-Finrock

Parable of the wine bottles and one's being willing to believe Christ and repent of unbelief to boot... What do you think? What is the spiritual advantage of knowing it is a deception and truly the adversary deceived the entire world?

[Finrock]

What is the spiritual advantage to believing that the earth is not a globe?

-Finrock

Parable of the wine bottles and one's being willing to believe Christ and repent of unbelief to boot... What do you think? What is the spiritual advantage of knowing it is a deception and truly the adversary deceived the entire world?

I don't know the spiritual advantage of this particular knowledge. That is why I asked. Can you provide a more direct and clear answer as to what is the spiritual advantage of believing that the earth is not a globe?

-Finrock

[larsenb]

What is the spiritual advantage to believing that the earth is not a globe?

-Finrock

Parable of the wine bottles and one's being willing to believe Christ and repent of unbelief to boot... What do you think? What is the spiritual advantage of knowing it is a deception and truly the adversary deceived the entire world?

I would say that the idea of a global earth being proven is as true as any scientific hypothesis can be proved. Could it be that the adversary has deceived you in wasting your time trying to disprove this 'fact', especially in the light of what appears to be your lack of the tools necessary to prove it one way or another.

To make any headway in science, you really have to stick to the tools of science and to be able to understand them. This entails understanding how the many proofs of a global earth are formulated and how they are derived using scientific tools. If you are not at this stage, you are kind of wasting your time.

[Kitkat]

Apologies for triggering you. It wasn't my intention.

Triggered... no. Loving you enough to call you out for your "lunacy" comment absolutely. You are better than that, and this little exercise has proven the same. We are not lunatics and you really don't believe we are do you? O:-)

invite again to watch this... our brain always makes up a story when we are lacking all the info but allow our emotions to react to someone's perspective, words, findings, etc..

https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtop ... =1&t=45226

You seemed to be quite upset.

So you lovingly called me out for my 'lunacy' comment? Hmmm . . . I'll have to take you at your word for that assertion.

But at the same time have you 'lovingly' contemplated anything else I've presented? Have you lovingly decided to study physics so you can really refute or understand someone else's refutation of arguments in favor of a globe-like earth? Have you lovingly understood my suggestion that unless you go back to the very original Hebrew and the very original Hebrew meaning that you might be deficient in your understanding of the scriptural passage you mentioned in your thread and use as a starting point for your flat-earth defense?

I doubt it.

Do you understand what may be my 'loving' motive for wanting to protect the reputation of Brian's forum, or what may be my loving motive for trying to get you to give up an impossible task and what really seems like a waste or your precious time??

We love picking up the study of physics yes, and anything else presented in this thread, we don't dismiss you as a lunatic for suggesting it.

However, if my history is right, would you have requested Joseph Smith as a 14 year old to become a physicist in order to prove his vision was real or that two beings physically stood in mid air above him speaking to him, or is that a faith based experiment - you know with all the facts and evidence of gravity and all... i hope you wouldn't require that of him. What about Moses and the Red Sea? Was he able to satisfy your demands in order to consider his story of parting the sea? God is amazing at giving us what we want most, and indeed we ought to be as a child to enter the kingdom of God.

As to scriptural study of the original Hebrew, yes, we have started for fun to look into it a lot for a few years now! EdGoble on this forum, has been a fun one to go to for his thoughts on the language which sparked our interest a few years back to begin to study it out, so maybe we have studied it more than you would have guessed or supposed up to this point?
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Have had a blast studying it out since this thread, with a big hearty thanks to EdGoble answering brotherofmahonri's (my hubby) questions.

Iconotropy is something we feel the Lord has helped us understand greatly, giving us a deeper understanding and witness of the Pearl of Great Price, in particular the papyri of the Book of Abraham, and those who have attempted to prove through experts (like your physics demand) with scholarly evidence that it was nothing more than a burial papyri Joseph faked. We have a witness otherwise, thanks to the study the Lord helped us with in Hebrew and iconotropy.

[Kitkat]

What is the spiritual advantage to believing that the earth is not a globe?

-Finrock

Parable of the wine bottles and one's being willing to believe Christ and repent of unbelief to boot... What do you think? What is the spiritual advantage of knowing it is a deception and truly the adversary deceived the entire world?

I don't know the spiritual advantage of this particular knowledge. That is why I asked. Can you provide a more direct and clear answer as to what is the spiritual advantage of believing that the earth is not a globe?

-Finrock

I have kids that get car sick, so I don't have to worry about their getting motion sickness on the "globe-earth" spin anymore... :p

It is deeper than just this flat earth. One can even forget the flat earth. For us it comes down to one principle which I think is pertinent to our salvation. Christ is the ultimate scientist, therefor to us, it stands to reason he should be the one we go to for the opportunity to teach us about the world He made. Man cannot be saved in ignorance. What does that mean to each of us?

He states he gives us PATTERNS IN ALL THINGS so we are NOT DECEIVED. This flat earth is one of many, many, many things, He has shown us, and invited us to consider, line upon line, here a little there a little, in PATTERNS he puts in our lives, as we have been willing to be open to His voice over the voice of FACTS, REASON, SCIENCE (aka philosophies of man) until we are familiar enough (growing and growing) with his voice that we will literally be sitting in a Sunday family study session or conversation, and we will ask him to teach us something new, and he introduces the flat earth boom, bam bang! What?!! We laugh, smile and then engage in a scripture based study first on the topic, and we are amazed at what the Spirit shows us. We don't instantly believe what we are being invited to consider by His voice. We look for the same patterns He always uses us until we have made the choices, studied it out, and took it to him to verify, correct, or enhance or point in the other direction. It is fun. It is engaging with Christ. He is the funnest science teacher we've ever encountered, and he does use people to introduce ideas and test our faith in Him.

That is how it rolls in our family. Call it lunacy if you want, many do, it is becoming more and more like Lehi to us, in that the closer we get to Christ, the more non-mainstream the information has become from His voice, the more we see the also familiar pattern of being called lunatics and labeled as nuts.

So what spiritual advantage does the flat earth knowledge provide? None, unless you are open to Christ being your teacher in all things, and recognizing the philosophies of men in all knowledge (which is not understanding mind you) that man kind has offered us.

It is the same as those who always say, it doesn't matter if polygamy was of God or Brigham in the church... it won't affect my salvation. We are saying it SO DOES MATTER. If polygamy is an abomination to God, which is our clear personal witness from His voice to us we declare openly - it is blasphemy and unbelief, and lifting one's heal against the Lord's anointed (his words not mine) Joseph Smith in ignorance to believe the history and philosophies of men on the matter, and man cannot be saved in ignorance.