The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

[Kitkat]

Why would you expect a variance or a correction? Are you familiar with gravity?

Since you brought up planes-
Whats the shortest distance from Sydney Australia to Johannesburg on a globe vs. on a flat earth? How do planes make that flight? Why is it that the shortest distance is actually on a globe and not on a flat earth? In fact, on a flat earth there are too many miles separating the two for a non-stop flight to even be possible. And yet non-stop flights exist :-$

Did you actually give this some though? Am I familiar with gravity? I'll pretend you are not being sarcastic or rude. I actually asked God about gravity and He introduced us to the electric universe - which there is an amazing thread about on this very forum (warning, it isn't found in the manual, or in GC talks).

[Kitkat]

It was cool to experiment, but here's the thing: if you don't know the characteristics of your instruments, or if you don't know what data to consider significant, or if you misrepresent a physical model... then, your experiment is just a cool game which can't teach you anything true. One or all of these feature in almost all flat earth arguments.

Did Lehi know the characteristics of the Liahona? Did he have to know of the gyros working in them? I think it was more simplistic faith and trust in God. It was a cool experiment, fun to sit there and observe with the very best tech we had access to.

I felt it pleased the Lord who introduced us to the topic, that we were willing to consider it further in spite of the incredible amount of people thinking it is stupid to even consider and in the face of "accepted" theories (which is beginning to be a pattern as we know the Lord's voice over mankind's voices in that when he answers us, we usually have to undo some book learning).

[Kitkat]

I asked google how far you can see in a plane, and an article came up saying that you can see about 230mi at 35,000ft in ideal conditions[\i]. Doing the math, that means that arc of the planet you can see is only 3.3 degrees, perhaps not enough to discern anything. And it's far less at ground level. I'm willing to admit that my previous comments about being on a mountaintop and thinking I can detect curvature, is probably just the circularity of my sight radius or pure imagination. At about 10000ft the viewable distance is supposedly about 122 mi or only 1.7 degrees.

Even at 100000ft distance is only (supposedly) 488 miles or 7.7degrees. I don't know at what point my perception would become unmistakable.

Interesting. It was suggested to us to not trust the machines we used in our simple but fun experiment, may we also caution the suggester in using the machine google to determine how far you can see... it may negate the validity of your statistics. :p

[Kitkat]

. . . While it is my view that both the flat-earth and globe-earth models are too simplistic (we live in a universe of contradictions and surprises), there is no doubt that it is safe to say that, based on observable criteria, the earth is optically flat.

Another experiment for KitKat, provided they start flying something like the Concorde again. Doing a search for 'curvature of earth visibility', I ran across a poster who said he had placed the edge of an 8x11 sheet of paper against the visible curvature of the earth at about 65,000 to 70,000 ft high, and measured against this straight line, the curvature of the earth started to show up.

Something that could be easily done from a manned satellite. So no; based on observable criteria, the earth shows that it is not optically flat. Of course, for the last experiment, you're either going to have to hitch a ride on a manned satellite, or believe someone who has performed the same experiment from a manned satellite. Or you could as well believe any photographs taken of the edge of the earth from said satellite, which do show the curvature.

But I realize, putting your faith in such things may be difficult for you and, I guess, Robin Hood.

We are OK with curves on the earth. The curves actually would make a beautiful flat earth domed model. We probably need some curvature in order to have a dome model with a flat-earth. Flat is probably the wrong word for it, it would be more like footstool on pillars, with water above and below the firmament to quote scripture.

[Kitkat]

It's flat as far as I can see...

Seriously, how do you account for day & night? Seasons? Constellations? Tides?

braingrunt recommends a google search. Lots of well done proposals, including by some scientists on your questions. Why not study it out and present your evidences?

[Kitkat]

I guess the "optically" flat earth is just that, flat to the perspective of the observer. We are convinced you cannot see the curvature of the earth, it isn't there, you can see things you shouldn't be able to see with the heliocentric - round earth curvature model and math. It doesn't add up.

So for us, that is a debunked theory for a round earth. Any care to take a go at this? It is wrong, the math of a round earth does not work with anything over the horizon, esp. with the sea-level (keyword level) experiments, and a simple zoom camera. We hope to visit the beach again as a family soon, and plan to have a more powerful camera to do our own eye-witness of this supposed disappearing behind the horizon that should occur with a round earth as taught by accepted science models and theories.

[Kitkat]

It's flat as far as I can see...

Seriously, how do you account for day & night? Seasons? Constellations? Tides?

braingrunt recommends a google search. Lots of well done proposals, including by some scientists on your questions. Why not study it out and present your evidences?

I think this music will help your search rewcox.

[cayenne]

It's flat as far as I can see...

Seriously, how do you account for day & night? Seasons? Constellations? Tides?

braingrunt recommends a google search. Lots of well done proposals, including by some scientists on your questions. Why not study it out and present your evidences?

I think this music will help your search rewcox.

Lol....the astronaut who had fallen but couldn't get up lol....needed some wires. Haha the curved panel at the end with the curved earth.

[Kitkat]

It's flat as far as I can see...

Seriously, how do you account for day & night? Seasons? Constellations? Tides?

braingrunt recommends a google search. Lots of well done proposals, including by some scientists on your questions. Why not study it out and present your evidences?

I think this music will help your search rewcox.

Lol....the astronaut who had fallen but couldn't get up lol....needed some wires. Haha the curved panel at the end with the curved earth.

The giant head reflection of the small model with a black screen behind the small model shuttle is our kids favorite along with the transparent astronaut that leaves the room and vaporizes into thin space air. =))

[SempiternalHarbinger]

D&C 130:6 The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth;

7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.

8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.

If the angels and God reside on a globe, why would God create anything other than a globe for us to inhabit until it becomes a celestialized globe? And here's another question. Are all planets globes? Or are they just all figments of NASA's imagination? If not, explain Saturn and its rings.

I agree Marc. Is there not unequivocal proof from NASA images that the Earth is a sphere?? If so, the premise of this thread is falsified. Flat earth proponents do not accept that evidence and maintain that the images are faked. While I personally dispute NASA scientist's interpretations, I do not dispute the validity of the raw data and images. Saturn and it's rings are a great example.

If the flat earth map is to be believed then the distance from Sydney, Australia to Buenos Aries, Argentina is over 25,000 miles. How does Quantas flight QF17 manage that trip in just 14 hours? It would need to be flying around about mach 3.

There is a shorter distance which involves flying "north" through east asia, over the arctic and down "south". though north america but I'm pretty certain they only fly over the ocean.

[Kitkat]

Is there not unequivocal proof from NASA images that the Earth is a sphere??...

Is this unequivocal proof to you? Anything odd about this image of the round earth from Nasa to you? What unequivocal proof from NASA images are you speaking of, please do share and enlighten us all.

http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/galleries/new-blue-marble

If there is a firmament and a glass dome over whatever shape earth, separating waters from above and below, then NASA can't physically get out far enough to take an entire image of the "round" earth, and that is why we still are yet to have ANY IMAGE OF THE COMPLETE ROUND EARTH for a full 24 hours that isn't easily proved to be faked and NASA has even admitted they photoshop every round earth image entirely and that any video of earth spinning is also pieced together frame by frame. NASA has yet to provide a simple movie of earth spinning in it's "round" glory.

If anyone is wondering how easy it is to fake a round earth (outside of hollywood), there are plenty of demos out there that one can find, which show that for free and some knowledge, you can make a video probably better than many of those NASA purportedly makes of a round spinning sphere earth.

How they make the videos we have today of the Earth:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/ ... arble/?src

A good analysis as to maybe why we have yet to have a full video of our own earth, in spite of having full movies of other planets:

Please refrain from simply coming to this thread to make blanket statements. Address the evidences against what is being presented, make your case.

[Kitkat]

Using Mach's principle, we will show that the observed motion of the Earth can just as well be accounted as the revolution of the Universe around the fixed and centered Earth (aka dome spinning around earth)

This can be performed by postulating the existence of vector and scalar potentials caused by simultaneous motion of the masses in the Universe, including the distant stars

Some interesting experiments done and accepted by mainstream science yet not further researched because of accepted Theories:

[Robin Hood]

Thanks Kitkat.
As I've said previously, my epiphany that all is not as we're told, came when I conducted my own experiment focusing on ships apparently disappearing over the earth's curvature. When I did this for myself and clearly saw that they were still there when I deployed binoculars, I realized that there is something up.
One of the oft-repeated evidences of a curvature clearly is nothing of the sort.

It is interesting to note that the famous Bedford Levels experiment was repeated last summer, again with no curvature detected over a distance of 6 miles.

With regards to NASA, I believe they need to justify their enormous budget and have gone so far down the rabbit hole that they cannot now extricate themselves.

The universe in which we live is way beyond our understanding. There are multiple dimensions, energy frequencies, invisible light spectrums etc and we need to exhibit much more humility about things we claim to "know".

[braingrunt]

It was cool to experiment, but here's the thing: if you don't know the characteristics of your instruments, or if you don't know what data to consider significant, or if you misrepresent a physical model... then, your experiment is just a cool game which can't teach you anything true. One or all of these feature in almost all flat earth arguments.

Did Lehi know the characteristics of the Liahona? Did he have to know of the gyros working in them? I think it was more simplistic faith and trust in God. It was a cool experiment, fun to sit there and observe with the very best tech we had access to.

I felt it pleased the Lord who introduced us to the topic, that we were willing to consider it further in spite of the incredible amount of people thinking it is stupid to even consider and in the face of "accepted" theories (which is beginning to be a pattern as we know the Lord's voice over mankind's voices in that when he answers us, we usually have to undo some book learning).

I'm not saying that either you or lehi has to understand the minute workings, you just need to know what your instrument outputs. In your case, and I don't mean this rudely, you thought your instrument was a gyro when, based on how you described taxiing, I think it was an Accelerometer, or at least an accelerometer calibrated gyro. Further tests could answer that for sure (placing the phone on a flat surface and then sliding it back and forth as quickly as you can, while still being able to read the output... If the output changes due to such motion, there's little question, you're looking at accelerometer data.)

[shadow]

Jared, Semp and I have asked you questions regarding distances between two points, one being from a globe and the other from a flat earth, and you've not answered them. I realize it's because you cannot because it disproves your flat earth theory, but I'd like to at least see you try.

[cappaccio]

I think this music will help your search rewcox.

ALL videos can be manipulated, including this one. ;)

[braingrunt]

Regarding relativity, I my mind finds it deeply troubling. That said, my mind at times has been bothered by the concept of infinite time or space, which I now accept.

[cayenne]

I want to take a moment of pause and thank God for the restoration of his gospel. Thank you Lord, for I know that you are true, and we have your modern revelation to back up your older revelations bringing both the sticks of Ephraim and Judah together, and we have your foundation to work with thanks to you....In Jesus name amen

This morning I was just thinking about all the lies and dis-info we receive from man, and how the masses and all of us at times swallow it up. Where would we be without the good Lord and his prophets and witnesses! Imagine a world where there was no modern revelation or Joseph smith and company. What if God never spoke and we had no Bible.....

I am tired of being lied to by these cliques of men, but I know faith in the Lord, he will prevail!

I am enjoying this subject of flat vs round earth (maybe square earth lol) I am far from piecing this together for my own satisfaction, but I know that we are being lied to in many things in science and NASA, etc.....the motive is there and it fits the many conspiracy patterns of the past.

As for the South America to Australia flights, I love the website flight radar 24, and I will be asking more ?'s to my commercial pilot family member. He has flown to South America from the USA but never across the pacific to South America. He does fly across the pacific to Asia though. (maybe he can obtain the official flight routes for me). It is my understanding though that we never fly over the arctic, we only skim by it. I have read other reviews of people saying the flat earth maps themselves may be distorted in distances, etc, but this does not mean the earth is round. (Or as Neil degrees Tyson says, we are pear shaped lol....)

My deal is this, NASA is getting caught in lie after lie (just like many in governments) and so that instantly strikes a cord in me to investigate what they are hiding. (kind of like in almost any European country if you publicly question the official holocaust story you will be instantly jailed....why? What are they hiding? (that is another subject I have done research on for a long time and they are attempting to hide a ton of what really happened)....so what is NASA and friends hiding? I do think we are under a dome as the scriptures state in several ways ( quotes of nasa and Obama and others saying we have never been out of low earth orbit) etc....and on and on

what really sickens my heart is how these NASA people (and many others) on film are smiling and lying right too us much of the time. Reminds me of the clique popular crowd in high school. Many of them would lie right to your face with a smile, and go brag about it afterwards behind closed doors. I think we as a people trying to love God need to realize, their are many people who enjoy the devil, and killing, and lying, and that is their joy. They get all revved up pulling the wool over peoples eyes. How do you think you get to these high positions in government and NASA, etc....by proving you are an liar and will do what it takes to get ahead. Joel Skousen has some great insights on the CIA and FBI and how you move up the ladder there, and it is not from telling the truth and being moral!

Anyway, I hope we all can enjoy this subject and not get heated about it. Thank God for everything!!!

[shadow]

It is my understanding though that we never fly over the arctic, we only skim by it.

Arctic polar routes are now common on airlines connecting Asian cities (Bangkok, Beijing, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Guangzhou, Hong Kong, New Delhi, Mumbai, Seoul, Shanghai, Singapore, Taipei and Tokyo) to North American cities (New York City, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal, San Francisco, Seattle, Toronto, Vancouver and Washington, D.C.). Emirates flies nonstop from Dubai to the US West Coast (San Francisco, Seattle and Los Angeles)

[braingrunt]

Fading/transparent astronauts is not automatically troubling to me. I'd need to talk with someone who knows more about video compression in order to get their input. But what I know (as a programmer but not specializing in video compression) is that modern compression uses what are called "keyframes"... and in highly compressed scenarios such as teleconferencing, they can be negotiated and may actually be several seconds apart. The keyframes are actual pictures and are relatively expensive in terms of bandwidth. The rest of the time, the sending computer sends inexpensive "tween" like data, literally saying, "hey, that thing I sent you before moved like this or faded like this or color shifted like this. Go and extrapolate." In other words the computer literally fabricates much of what you see, with literally a focus on, "what can I get away with that will save me bandwidth. What is a human least likely to notice or care about?" In video, when required keyframes are missed you can get those hideous corruptions where their face moves around but is silverish looking or something like that. The tween data is applied to the previous innacurate keyframe and so you get the ugliness.

In other words, the fading astronaut, if sent over modern compression, is COMPLETELY unconvincing to me.

[shadow]

Can anyone explain a sunset to me on a flat earth? if the sun sets at the horizon, and it does, then shouldn't that be proof that the earth is a globe? On a flat earth the sun wouldn't set at the horizon as it got further away from your current location, it would simply get smaller and smaller until it disappeared in the sky. And even if it did set at the horizon, it would be very small compared to the size at noon day. We know the sun is the same size from sunrise to sunset. More proof that the earth is a globe.
We can talk about constellations next, but lets first discuss distances on a flat earth vs. on a globe and then sunrises and sunsets. I'm still waiting for the husbandofkitkat to answer the first question, so I don't want to get ahead of myself, although I like to stay ahead of the curve. Pun intended.

[shadow]

I want to take a moment of pause and thank God for the restoration of his gospel. Thank you Lord, for I know that you are true, and we have your modern revelation to back up your older revelations bringing both the sticks of Ephraim and Judah together, and we have your foundation to work with thanks to you....In Jesus name amen

This morning I was just thinking about all the lies and dis-info we receive from man, and how the masses and all of us at times swallow it up. Where would we be without the good Lord and his prophets and witnesses! Imagine a world where there was no modern revelation or Joseph smith and company. What if God never spoke and we had no Bible.....

I am tired of being lied to by these cliques of men, but I know faith in the Lord, he will prevail!

I am enjoying this subject of flat vs round earth (maybe square earth lol) I am far from piecing this together for my own satisfaction, but I know that we are being lied to in many things in science and NASA, etc.....the motive is there and it fits the many conspiracy patterns of the past.

As for the South America to Australia flights, I love the website flight radar 24, and I will be asking more ?'s to my commercial pilot family member. He has flown to South America from the USA but never across the pacific to South America. He does fly across the pacific to Asia though. (maybe he can obtain the official flight routes for me). It is my understanding though that we never fly over the arctic, we only skim by it. I have read other reviews of people saying the flat earth maps themselves may be distorted in distances, etc, but this does not mean the earth is round. (Or as Neil degrees Tyson says, we are pear shaped lol....)

My deal is this, NASA is getting caught in lie after lie (just like many in governments) and so that instantly strikes a cord in me to investigate what they are hiding. (kind of like in almost any European country if you publicly question the official holocaust story you will be instantly jailed....why? What are they hiding? (that is another subject I have done research on for a long time and they are attempting to hide a ton of what really happened)....so what is NASA and friends hiding? I do think we are under a dome as the scriptures state in several ways ( quotes of nasa and Obama and others saying we have never been out of low earth orbit) etc....and on and on

what really sickens my heart is how these NASA people (and many others) on film are smiling and lying right too us much of the time. Reminds me of the clique popular crowd in high school. Many of them would lie right to your face with a smile, and go brag about it afterwards behind closed doors. I think we as a people trying to love God need to realize, their are many people who enjoy the devil, and killing, and lying, and that is their joy. They get all revved up pulling the wool over peoples eyes. How do you think you get to these high positions in government and NASA, etc....by proving you are an liar and will do what it takes to get ahead. Joel Skousen has some great insights on the CIA and FBI and how you move up the ladder there, and it is not from telling the truth and being moral!

Anyway, I hope we all can enjoy this subject and not get heated about it. Thank God for everything!!!

Maybe you're not aware but people figured out the earth was a globe looooong before NASA or even the USA came into existence.

[braingrunt]

Interesting video. Results seem to indicate round earth but he so far would only conclude that it does not seem to be convex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCuJhWazJpI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[cayenne]

It is my understanding though that we never fly over the arctic, we only skim by it.

Arctic polar routes are now common on airlines connecting Asian cities (Bangkok, Beijing, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Guangzhou, Hong Kong, New Delhi, Mumbai, Seoul, Shanghai, Singapore, Taipei and Tokyo) to North American cities (New York City, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal, San Francisco, Seattle, Toronto, Vancouver and Washington, D.C.). Emirates flies nonstop from Dubai to the US West Coast (San Francisco, Seattle and Los Angeles)

I mean South Pole. Yes tons of flights go up over north pole

[cayenne]

I want to take a moment of pause and thank God for the restoration of his gospel. Thank you Lord, for I know that you are true, and we have your modern revelation to back up your older revelations bringing both the sticks of Ephraim and Judah together, and we have your foundation to work with thanks to you....In Jesus name amen

This morning I was just thinking about all the lies and dis-info we receive from man, and how the masses and all of us at times swallow it up. Where would we be without the good Lord and his prophets and witnesses! Imagine a world where there was no modern revelation or Joseph smith and company. What if God never spoke and we had no Bible.....

I am tired of being lied to by these cliques of men, but I know faith in the Lord, he will prevail!

I am enjoying this subject of flat vs round earth (maybe square earth lol) I am far from piecing this together for my own satisfaction, but I know that we are being lied to in many things in science and NASA, etc.....the motive is there and it fits the many conspiracy patterns of the past.

As for the South America to Australia flights, I love the website flight radar 24, and I will be asking more ?'s to my commercial pilot family member. He has flown to South America from the USA but never across the pacific to South America. He does fly across the pacific to Asia though. (maybe he can obtain the official flight routes for me). It is my understanding though that we never fly over the arctic, we only skim by it. I have read other reviews of people saying the flat earth maps themselves may be distorted in distances, etc, but this does not mean the earth is round. (Or as Neil degrees Tyson says, we are pear shaped lol....)

My deal is this, NASA is getting caught in lie after lie (just like many in governments) and so that instantly strikes a cord in me to investigate what they are hiding. (kind of like in almost any European country if you publicly question the official holocaust story you will be instantly jailed....why? What are they hiding? (that is another subject I have done research on for a long time and they are attempting to hide a ton of what really happened)....so what is NASA and friends hiding? I do think we are under a dome as the scriptures state in several ways ( quotes of nasa and Obama and others saying we have never been out of low earth orbit) etc....and on and on

what really sickens my heart is how these NASA people (and many others) on film are smiling and lying right too us much of the time. Reminds me of the clique popular crowd in high school. Many of them would lie right to your face with a smile, and go brag about it afterwards behind closed doors. I think we as a people trying to love God need to realize, their are many people who enjoy the devil, and killing, and lying, and that is their joy. They get all revved up pulling the wool over peoples eyes. How do you think you get to these high positions in government and NASA, etc....by proving you are an liar and will do what it takes to get ahead. Joel Skousen has some great insights on the CIA and FBI and how you move up the ladder there, and it is not from telling the truth and being moral!

Anyway, I hope we all can enjoy this subject and not get heated about it. Thank God for everything!!!

Maybe you're not aware but people figured out the earth was a globe looooong before NASA or even the USA came into existence.

Of course, as many figured out was flat also. It wasn't until rocket technology that man could actually see what was up there, and since then only a tiny clique has access.