The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

[Robin Hood]

Some flat-earthers believe there are no satellites and that NASA is a giant fraud.
Others believe the "dome" is quite high and that satellites circle around within it.
Note the use of the word circle, as opposed to orbit.

[Kitkat]

Heleman 12:

Yea, by the power of his voice, do the foundations rock, even to the very center.

13 Yea, and if he say unto the earth—Move—it is moved.
Why would he need to say to the earth "MOVE" if it was spinning and moving around the sun in an orbit? It could just as easily be that a flat earth is spinning like a top and the sun and moon are stationery above it, while the stars are in the firmament as he states they are placed between the waters above and below the firmament in creation.

14 Yea, if he say unto the earth—Thou shalt go back, that it lengthen out the day for many hours—it is done;
Works just fine in a flat earth model, spin the top backwards, move the earth.

15 And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.
Sun Standeth Still. If this was so, and we take it literally, then the sun is not MOVING around the galaxy, it standeth still, which is a flat earth point rather than round earth, which suggests that the sun is moving and spinning and has it's orbit around the galaxy center and other stars.

16 And behold, also, if he say unto the waters of the great deep—Be thou dried up—it is done.

Some other scriptures in the most correct book to consider, which also invites one to consider a flat earth model, speaking particularly of the earth being a SCROLL.

Mormon 5:23 Know ye not that ye are in the hands of God? Know ye not that he hath all power, and at his great command the earth shall be rolled together as a SCROLL?

D&C 88:95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a SCROLL is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled;

Mormon 9:2 Behold, will ye believe in the day of your visitation—behold, when the Lord shall come, yea, even that great day when the earth shall be rolled together as a SCROLL, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, yea, in that great day when ye shall be brought to stand before the Lamb of God—then will ye say that there is no God?

3rd Nephi 26:3 And he did expound all things, even from the beginning until the time that he should come in his glory—yea, even all things which should come upon the face of the earth, even until the elements should melt with fervent heat, and the earth should be wrapt together as a SCROLL, and the heavens and the earth should pass away;

Child like faith to learn from God, vs the "wisdom" of the god of men, science.

1st Corinth 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1st Corinth 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

2nd Nephi 9:28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

[Kitkat]

Another interesting perspective of the Book of Mormon and Bible flat earth evidence:

http://www.14lds.com/flat.htm

A small section of the above linked article... We enjoyed the entire article worth a read for perspective of why a Christian believer might have an open mind to a flat earth.

The Hebrew word which we translate as "firmament" is "raqiya" which means "the vault or dome of heaven." This word also conveys the idea of something that is considered to be solid and flat. (Strong's Concordance). Furthermore, this word is derived from the Hebrew word "raqa" which means "to beat out, stamp, or stretch" meaning something that has been shaped by beating, stamping, or stretching it. In Job 37:18, we see this concept expressed in the question that Elihu asks of God: "Hast thou with him spread out [iraqa] the sky which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?" What this verse of scripture tells us is that the Bible teaches that the sky is a strong solid object that has been forged and shaped by God, like a craftsman would, which He then spread out over the earth. This same idea of God being a craftsman is expressed in Psalms 19:1 which reads, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork (i.e. workmanship)."

This scripture in Genesis also tells us that God called the firmament "heaven" (from the Hebrew word "shamayim" which means the sky, the atmosphere, or the abode of the stars - i.e, outer space or the universe). In fact the Bible verifies that "shamayim" can mean "outer space" when it records that God told Abraham "And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, [shamayim]" (Genesis 26:4, see also Exodus 32:13; 1 Chronicles 21:16). Thus, what the Bible teaches is that the stars reside in heaven (shamayim), which we refer to as outer space or the universe.

Just as the firmament was "spread out", and the word "firmament" is the same as "the heavens," it therefore makes sense for Isaiah to say, "It is he… that stretcheth out the heavens [.shamayim] (i.e., the universe) as a curtain and spreadeth them out like a tent to dwell in" (40:22). Thus we see that the Bible clearly teaches that the firmament or the universe was stretched or spread out over the earth like you would do with a curtain or a tent.

woah... this is an entirely new thought on the matter...
As we continue to read the creation story as recorded in the Bible, we learn that the earth began as a large glob of water. Then God separated the water into two parts using a solid dome called the firmament (sky, atmosphere, outer space). If this is so, then what the Bible's account of creation is telling us is that in the beginning of the earth's creation this body of water was divided into two parts, with one part below the sky and the other part being above all the stars in the universe.

Genesis next tells us that it was from the waters below the sky that God caused the dry land to appear. The fact that the dry land was created from water is verified in 2 Peter 3:5 which reads, "they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water" (NIV,emphasis added). Psalms 24:1-2 also tells us, "The earth is the Lord's, and the fullness of it, the world and they who dwell in it. For He has founded it upon the seas and established it upon the currents and the rivers." (Amplified Bible). Therefore, what the Bible tells us is that the earth itself was created from water.

More than that, Genesis tells us in verse 8 that "God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so." If we take this verse literally, that means the dry land suddenly appeared from out of the water, then the rest of the water was gathered together in one place and the dry land was in another place. If this is an accurate translation that means the Bible teaches that originally there wasn't any land under the water. Notice that the Bible does not say that in the beginning water covered the planet, and at God's command the water receded, thereby exposing the land. It specifically states that in the beginning God separated the waters in two by use of outer space. If there was land inside the waters below the sky that means there also has to be land inside the waters above the universe. Also, the Bible clearly tells us that the earth was "founded upon the seas and established upon the floods (currents and rivers)."

Also, if the earth's dry land stands out of the water and is in the water, and its foundation is the seas and it has been established upon the floods that can only mean that there is water below the earth. Thus, from a careful study of what the Bible tells us about the creation of the earth we learn that the dry land rests on a foundation of water and that God shaped a solid dome or vault called the firmament or universe which He then stretched over the earth.

As further evidence that the "firmament" or "heaven" is a solid dome the Bible tells us that the sky has windows in it and it is when God opens these windows that the water that is above the firmament then falls to the earth as rain. Notice what the Bible teaches: "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the foundation of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened" (Genesis 7:11). According to what the Bible tells us, the rain that flooded the earth in the days of Noah came from "the great deep and the widows of heaven" when they were opened. And why did it finally stop raining? The Bible tells us, "and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained" (Genesis 8:2). We find this same idea of heaven having windows expressed in 2 Kings 7:2,19; Isaiah 24:18-19; Jeremiah 51:15-16; and Malachi 3:10.

The Bible then tells us that the apostle John saw an event in the future when "the stars in the sky fell to the earth, like figs shaken down by a gale; the sky vanished, as a scroll is rolled up...they called out to the mountains and the crags, Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One who sits on the throne" (Revelation 6:13-16). First of all, notice that this verse talks about the sky vanishing "as a scroll is rolled up," again reinforcing the idea that the universe is composed of some sort of material that can be stretched out and rolled up at God's will.

However, more importantly, notice that this verse says that the sky can be shaken like a tree thereby causing the stars to fall "to the earth… like figs shaken down by a gale." First of all, the only way the sky can be shaken is if it is a solid object. But, secondly, we know that it is impossible for even one star to fall from the sky and land on the earth, let alone all "the stars." The only way "stars" could fall from the sky as the Bible describes is if we picture them as small shiny objects that hang from the solid dome called heaven which covers the top part of the earth. And, indeed, anciently, that is how the common man thought of these lights in the sky.

The ancient Egyptians worshiped the sky goddess, Nut (pronounced New-et). In their hieroglyphic drawings, she is represented as being arched over the earth, with only her toes and fingers touching the ground and from her body hung the stars. According to Egyptian mythology, they believed that every morning Nut ate the stars and that's why they were not visible during the day. As unbelievable as this may seem to us, it comes close to the description that the Bible gives of the sky.

But the Bible tells us that the stars aren't the only things in the heavens. It was Jesus who told us, "Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne " (Matthew 5:34, emphasis added). Furthermore, the Bible tells us that God's throne is in the height of heaven (Job 22:12). The Contemporary English Bible (CEV) translates this verse as "God lives in the heavens above the highest stars where he sees everything" (emphasis added). There are numerous other places in the Old Testament that declares that God lives in "shemayim." (1 Kings 8:3; Nehemiah 9:27; Job 22:12; etc.). When speaking of God, Psalm 104:3, 13 tells us, "You are the one who stretches out the heavens like a tent, Who lays the beams of the upper room of His abode in the waters [above the firmament],... He waters the mountains from his upper rooms" (Amplified Bible)." Most modern Bibles translate Job 22:14 as "He walks on the vault of the heavens." The CEV translates it as "He walks around heaven's dome high above the earth."

The Bible clearly and specifically tells us that God's lives in an upper room that is made out of "beams" and is located on the waters that are above the domed firmament. It also declares that God walks on the "vault of the heavens" "above the highest stars," indicating again that the sky is a solid physical object. And it further confirms the other scriptures which say that the heavens were "stretched out like a tent." More than this, the Bible tells us that it is from these upper rooms where God makes "his abode in the waters" above the firmament that He sends down rain to water the mountains.

What the Bible plainly teaches is that the sky is a solid dome or vault like structure with windows in it that has stars hanging from it that can be shaken loose and fall to the earth. Above this dome is water and it is there that God's throne is located and where he walks around. But what about the earth itself? The Bible tells us, "And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth?" (Isa. 51:13; Zech 12:1).

[sandman45]

However, I can say, "look... why is God so hellbent on creating optics perfected to make us think the earth is round and spinning at a constant angular velocity? Isn't it simpler to say, yeah, its round and spinning at a CAV just like it appears?"

...
P.S. Why does everyone have to be "hellbent"??

Turns out he wasn't, in fact. He decided not to play that trick.

God never said we are spinning at a constant angular velocity...

the stars and lights and greater lights were put there for a purpose.. its in the creation account.

[sandman45]

View from the ISS live HD camera feed:

IMG_5917.jpg

why cant i see the stars... or the galaxies and parts of the milky way?

[sandman45]

I found this very interesting.. and a good collection of images that different cultures throughout the ages believed..

flat_earth.jpg (159.54 KiB) Viewed 1139 times

[braingrunt]

However, I can say, "look... why is God so hellbent on creating optics perfected to make us think the earth is round and spinning at a constant angular velocity? Isn't it simpler to say, yeah, its round and spinning at a CAV just like it appears?"

...
P.S. Why does everyone have to be "hellbent"??

Turns out he wasn't, in fact. He decided not to play that trick.

God never said we are spinning at a constant angular velocity...

the stars and lights and greater lights were put there for a purpose.. its in the creation account.

The point is, if you track the sun through the sky, you observe constant angular velocity. So: either the earth is spinning at CAV; or God made a trick to make it appear so. But he chose not to play that trick. In fact, it's spinning.

There is one path the sun could take, which would create the look of CAV (from a certain viewpoint) without tricks... (would involve the sun going under the land mass) but the flat earthers absolutely deny the aforementioned path. So the flat earthers were left calling it an optical effect of bent light etc.

And remember the Book of Mormon in fact does say it is the earth that is moving and not the sun, to create day/night cycle. See my earlier posts in this thread. You literally have no choice but to reject flat earth or disbelieve those scriptures.

[moonwhim]

Maybe we could do a point to point discussion about these things if we can keep it civil and peaceful.

If I may, what about starting off talking about the horizon, and things disappearing over it. Is it perception? Or the actual object disappearing over the horizon? When I see a ship disappear over the horizon, and then binoculars/telescope bring it perfectly flat back into view like it never left, how can this be explained other than a flat plane? How can this be explained with a curvature of a round earth? This is observable to our own eyes and senses. Any and all explanations please give, and maybe this can actually be a fun debate unlike most debates on this forum

Any takers on my question?

I was a signalman in the Navy and was located on the top deck of the ship. Using 7 x 50 binocular I could watch ships come and go. When a ship was coming towards us I would first see the mast sticking up and then watch it rise to where I could see the whole ship. And when a ship was going away from us it would eventually sink out of sight. That to me indicates a globe. I watched this happen over and over during the 4 years I was in the Navy.

[sandman45]

quote from an Article in Popular Science 1931 about the first man to see the shape of the earth from the high altitude balloon he and his brother travelled in.

"The story of their adventure surpasses fiction. During the ascent, the aluminum ball began to leak. They plugged it desperately with vaseline and cotton waste, stopping the leak. In the first half hour, the balloon shot upward nine miles. Through portholes, the observers saw the earth through copper-colored, then bluish, haze. It seemed a flat disk with upturned edge. At the ten mile level the sky appeared a deep, dark blue. With observations complete, the observers tried to descend, but couldn't. While their oxygen tanks emptied, they floated aimlessly over Germany, Austria, and Italy. Cool evening air contracted the balloon's gas and brought them down on a glacier near Ober-Gurgl, Austria, with one hour's supply of oxygen to spare."[2]

[sandman45]

Great discussion.. look as for me I 120% believed in the earth being a sphere and there is space etc etc..

but now after a couple weeks of all these findings and fake nasa stuff I am leaning towards flat earth.. which if you asked me like last month I would have laughed in your face..

[larsenb]

Great discussion.. look as for me I 120% believed in the earth being a sphere and there is space etc etc..

but now after a couple weeks of all these findings and fake nasa stuff I am leaning towards flat earth.. which if you asked me like last month I would have laughed in your face..

Once again, how astonishing this thread is still going. Unbelievable =))

You're being snookered, Mr. sandman45.

[braingrunt]

Once again:
Hel 12:8
15 And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.

How is it possible this hasn't ended the discussion?

[sandman45]

Once again:
Hel 12:8
15 And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.

How is it possible this hasn't ended the discussion?

that scripture doesn't prove the earth is a sphere and that we rotate around the sun and that the sun rotates around and we all spiral around in the great Milky Way Galaxy..

the following and many others are better proof that its flat

1 Nephi 17
36 Behold, the Lord hath created the earth that it should be inhabited; and he hath created his children that they should possess it.

37 And he raiseth up a righteous nation, and destroyeth the nations of the wicked.

38 And he leadeth away the righteous into precious lands, and the wicked he destroyeth, and curseth the land unto them for their sakes.

39 He ruleth high in the heavens, for it is his throne, and this earth is his footstool.

notice the top of the footstool.... its flat

did a search... shows up alot.. https://www.lds.org/search?q=footstool& ... scriptures" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

footstool.jpg (95.87 KiB) Viewed 1015 times

[sandman45]

Great discussion.. look as for me I 120% believed in the earth being a sphere and there is space etc etc..

but now after a couple weeks of all these findings and fake nasa stuff I am leaning towards flat earth.. which if you asked me like last month I would have laughed in your face..

Once again, how astonishing this thread is still going. Unbelievable =))

You're being snookered, Mr. sandman45.

Have you been up in space and seen with your own eyes that the earth is indeed a sphere or flat or cube ?

[JohnnyL]

...
P.S. Why does everyone have to be "hellbent"??

Turns out he wasn't, in fact. He decided not to play that trick.

God never said we are spinning at a constant angular velocity...

the stars and lights and greater lights were put there for a purpose.. its in the creation account.

The point is, if you track the sun through the sky, you observe constant angular velocity. So: either the earth is spinning at CAV; or God made a trick to make it appear so. But he chose not to play that trick. In fact, it's spinning.

There is one path the sun could take, which would create the look of CAV (from a certain viewpoint) without tricks... (would involve the sun going under the land mass) but the flat earthers absolutely deny the aforementioned path. So the flat earthers were left calling it an optical effect of bent light etc.

And remember the Book of Mormon in fact does say it is the earth that is moving and not the sun, to create day/night cycle. See my earlier posts in this thread. You literally have no choice but to reject flat earth or disbelieve those scriptures.

You're back to the "a OR b only" situation that many people don't buy--there are rarely just two possibilities of what might be true.

[JohnnyL]

Once again:
Hel 12:8
15 And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.

How is it possible this hasn't ended the discussion?

I guess you missed the plethora of "flat earth" scriptural references?

[larsenb]

Great discussion.. look as for me I 120% believed in the earth being a sphere and there is space etc etc..

but now after a couple weeks of all these findings and fake nasa stuff I am leaning towards flat earth.. which if you asked me like last month I would have laughed in your face..

Once again, how astonishing this thread is still going. Unbelievable =))

You're being snookered, Mr. sandman45.

Have you been up in space and seen with your own eyes that the earth is indeed a sphere or flat or cube ?

I've seen so many photographs and videos shot from space, from orbit, from the high flying rocket plane forerunners to the space program, I really don't have to . . . though I would very much like to.

It's called science. Science really works as a gathering system for data, analysis and knowledge. The reason it works, is because it is verifiable with, many, many, many and again, many people involved in the process.

Ignore it at your peril and confusion and getting stuck in really odd byways of doubt. Maybe this is fun for you, though . . . entertainment , as it were. That's a different story. But I think its a mistake to carve out such a precarious perch for yourself. Especially on a public forum. Though, I would strongly, strongly suggest that you keep your identity secret . . . . . ;) and ;)

[braingrunt]

First,
A properly framed a or b proposition is pretty safe, and mine was pretty careful.

Second, as to "Flat Earth Scriptures",
1) the book of mormon is said to be more correct than the bible
2) the "flat earth scriptures" are easily read symbolically. Such as, "the earth is his footstool"? I can't understand why you think this is a shape statement instead of a statement of God's superiority. Or, "the four corners", means "everywhere", and well, 4 corners are as much a problem on a circle as on a globe. Or, the "pillars", they are easily readable as some sort of prepared position or plan, perhpas symbolic of the spiritual creation. Whereas "surely is is the earth that moveth and not the sun" is much harder to read symbolically. They are referring to an old testament story where the lord made the sun "go back" so that israel could defeat an army that day. The book of mormon says, simply: well, it LOOKS like the sun goes back but it's really the earth moving and not the sun. It's clearly making a statement about the path of the sun through the sky and explaining that the earth's motion explains it.

If not so, tell me what the bom scripture is saying.

[JohnnyL]

First,
A properly framed a or b proposition is pretty safe, and mine was pretty careful.

Second, as to "Flat Earth Scriptures",
1) the book of mormon is said to be more correct than the bible
2) the "flat earth scriptures" are easily read symbolically. Such as, "the earth is his footstool"? I can't understand why you think this is a shape statement instead of a statement of God's superiority. Or, "the four corners", means "everywhere", and well, 4 corners are as much a problem on a circle as on a globe. Or, the "pillars", they are easily readable as some sort of prepared position or plan, perhpas symbolic of the spiritual creation. Whereas "surely is is the earth that moveth and not the sun" is much harder to read symbolically. They are referring to an old testament story where the lord made the sun "go back" so that israel could defeat an army that day. The book of mormon says, simply: well, it LOOKS like the sun goes back but it's really the earth moving and not the sun. It's clearly making a statement about the path of the sun through the sky and explaining that the earth's motion explains it.

If not so, tell me what the bom scripture is saying.

I see no reason to believe your proposition was properly framed, and I think many others feel the same way.
"Either the BoM is true, and everything else in the LDS church is; or the BoM is not true, and the LDS church is false." Do you agree?
It seems like you are assuming that it's either "the BoM + sphere earth" or "flat earth".

I agree that Helaman 5:12 IS clearer and surely not symbolic, and Biblical ones are more easily possible to be taken that way. I believe it more, too, but the Biblical ones in the article are pretty... interesting, to say the least.
You are assuming they are referring the OT story.

[KurtTheMormon]

I have flown AROUND THE CIRCUMFERENCE OF THE EARTH. The Earth is a GLOBE, PERIOD.

What, do you think President Uchtdorf, a PILOT that has done the same, is lying to you or in on this retarded conspiracy?

People who think the earth is flat drive me absolutely crazy.

[Robin Hood]

I have flown AROUND THE CIRCUMFERENCE OF THE EARTH. The Earth is a GLOBE, PERIOD.

What, do you think President Uchtdorf, a PILOT that has done the same, is lying to you or in on this retarded conspiracy?

People who think the earth is flat drive me absolutely crazy.

Flat earthers will say you have circled the flat earth plane. It isn't difficult to see their point.

But I am more concerned by your last sentence. Why do people who believe differently to you "drive you crazy"? What harm are they doing you or anyone else?
In my view, this is very unhealthy.

[simpleton]

I had a brother that got into this flat earth mentality so of course we had various discussions about it ...
One of his points was that it is a big fat conspiracy that nasa and others are pulling the wool over our eyes and hoodwinking the people about the earth being round and that it is really flat...
According to that theory then what was the "conspiracy" back during the "dark" ages , why were they pulling the wool over people eyes then to make everybody think it was flat?

What difference does it make in a person's life either way whether flat or round, i do not lose any sleep over it one way or the other.

But my opinion and belief (and that is after watching some videos and reading various articles on the flat earth) is that it is still round..
I think that the many various quotes , references, etc, that God uses in the scriptures is interesting " one eternal round" why didnt He and his servants use instead " one eternal flat" , why "round" ? ... just o pining....

[cayenne]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E9G8fbnZ24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


So is it (the earth) round or pear shaped NASA?

Oh, its supposedly pear shaped but our eyes can't see it lol.....If the earth is pear shaped than what about the other planets lol.

Until Joe nobody can actually see for themselves what is up in "space" we can easily be lied to. True science is observable and repeatable, yet only the NASA clique and their cohorts with other nations can observe what is actually in "space."

Here is a cool video to watch about flat earth mocking in Hollywood

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzYThRs5hbQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Ya, something is going on here. I have no doubt we are being lied to about what is really in "space"....What exactly that is I don't know yet.

[braingrunt]

there's not necessarily any inconsistency in the round/pear shaped. It would be like the deli measuring out a pound of macaroni for you, and a scientist coming along with his scale and saying, "no SIR that's not a pound!" Well, it is close enough for my purposes.

[larsenb]

I have flown AROUND THE CIRCUMFERENCE OF THE EARTH. The Earth is a GLOBE, PERIOD.

What, do you think President Uchtdorf, a PILOT that has done the same, is lying to you or in on this retarded conspiracy?

People who think the earth is flat drive me absolutely crazy.

You need to reverse that reaction by keeping in mind that the flat earthers are the ones that are crazy.