The Lost Art of Automotive Tinkering - Cars as Disposable Appliances

[gclayjr]

dconrad000,

I may have been a little too hard on you. I told Jason, that if he could show me "briefly" how this magic water carburetor overcomes the physics and math behind

TANSTAAFL (There ain't no such thing as a free lunch), then I would spend a bit more time reading what he has to offer.

OK, If you can give me in a few sentences a convincing argument as to how you can use less energy to break water down into Hydrogen and oxygen, than you get by burning Hydrogen in the presence of oxygen to get water I will watch your conspiratorial videos.

Regards,

George Clay

[Ezra]

If he could build such a car, why cannot anyone else?
Why aren't there others making this car? The conspiracy killed everyone who could potentially build this car? If he could figure it out, why couldn't anyone else.
dc

Everyone around him knew first-hand that his car was real. It was also obvious to them that he was murdered by powerful interests over it.

That creates a dampening effect...that removes a lot of motivation. Stanley Meyers was a brilliant man, as you can see from the videos posted, and he had put his entire life and resources over a period of about 15 years into it.

So you mean if you were to do this now, personally on your own car, they would find you and murder you too?

Not if you keep your mouth shut. I've built a few hho generators. Plan on tinkering more on it. Have some ideas that I would like to persue using a tesla turbine engine. But have not had the time to really tinker as much as I would like.

I have a 4x4 Toyota pickup getting 28 mpg constitantly with hho gen added to it.

I would love to build a gasification truck. And drive on brush and weeds.

[dconrad000]

Gclayjr:

Stanley Meyer can explain it far better than I. It will take more than a few sentences, but the videos I posted are not long...if you are interested. Watch them or don't watch them...totally up to you.

This is quick and is powerful evidence, but you can't judge it if you don't watch it.

This starts out in Dutch as the interviewers are Dutch, but they switch over to English when Stanley Meyer comes out. Stanley Meyer then proceeds to show them everything about the car and explains in detail how it works.

[Teancum]

dconrad000,
OK, If you can give me in a few sentences a convincing argument as to how you can use less energy to break water down into Hydrogen and oxygen, than you get by burning Hydrogen in the presence of oxygen to get water I will watch your conspiratorial videos.

http://free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf page 10-71

Running Electrical Generators on Water Alone.
After many decades of being lied to, most people believe that it is necessary to burn a fuel (typically, a ‘fossil fuel’
such as petrol or diesel) in order to make an engine run. ‘Scientific experts’ demonstrate their ignorance by
proclaiming that their calculations show that there is just not enough energy in hydrogen released through
electrolysis, to provide enough power to run an engine which can provide sufficient electrical energy to perform
the electrolysis in the first place.
Their calculations are completely wrong as they are based on a major level of ignorance of the real facts:
1. Ignoring HHO altogether, engines can run extremely well on environmental energy channelled through a Joe
Cell as shown in chapter 9, and when doing that, no fuel at all is consumed..
2. They are not aware that properly made HHO has typically four times the energy content of hydrogen gas.
3. They are not aware that a properly built electrolyser running on DC has more than double the efficiency that
Faraday considered to be the maximum possible production rate of HHO for any given current flow.
4. They are not aware that resonant pulsed electrolysis has several times the water-to-HHO conversion efficiency
that straight DC can produce, resulting in more than ten times the Faraday ‘maximum’ conversion rate.
5. They are not aware that the majority of the energy produced by HHO being converted back into water does not
come from the hydrogen but instead comes from charged water clusters. It is likely that they have never even
heard of charged water clusters.
6. They are probably not aware that introducing cold water mist to the air entering an internal combustion engine,
makes that engine operate as an internal combustion steam engine as the mist gets converted into flashsteam,
raising the pressure inside the cylinder and boosting the engine efficiency very considerably.

page 10-81 (Bold and underline are mine).

Michael Faraday was an exceptional and highly respected researcher who investigated the electric current
needed to convert water into hydrogen gas and oxygen gas by electrolysis. His results are accepted by pretty
much every scientist everywhere. While he expressed the results of his work in terms which would be
meaningless to the average person, his result is that an electrical input of 2.34 watts produces one litre of hydroxy
gas in one hour.
In practical terms, that means that a current of 0.195 amps at 12 volts will produce 1 litre of hydroxy gas in one
hour. In passing, only a nearly discharged lead-acid battery would have a voltage of 12 volts as the fully charged
state is 12.85 volts and a vehicle alternator produces about 14 volts in order to charge the battery.
It is easier then, to compare the gas output of electrolysers directly to the figures produced by Faraday as shown
here, based on a gas output of 15 litres per minute which is 900 litres per hour:
Faraday: 900 litres in one hour, takes 2,106 watts or 100% Faraday
Boyce: 900 litres in one hour, takes 998 watts or 211% Faraday without pulsing
Boyce: 900 litres in one hour, takes 180 watts or 1,170% Faraday with pulsing
Cramton: 900 litres in one hour, takes 90 watts or 2,340% Faraday
Much of this is not very important as it has been demonstrated that a gas production rate of around 3 lpm (180
lph) is sufficient to run a generator which produces 5,500 watts. Let us assume that the measured figure is 100%
wrong and that it takes 360 lph of hydroxy gas, plus cold water fog, plus air, to run the generator, then:
Faraday would need 843 watts
Boyce would need 400 watts without pulsing
Boyce would need 72 watts with pulsing
Cramton would need 36 watts
None of these figures are important for running a generator because with an electrolyser efficiency of only 50%
Faraday still leaves a massive generator excess of nearly 4 kilowatts on a 5.5 kilowatt generator. The gain is in
running a generator as an internal combustion steam engine and not in the great efficiency of the electrolyser. It
is distinctly possible that the pessimistic figures shown above are twice what is actually needed, but who cares? -
the facts speak for themselves, with several people scattered around the world, already running generators on
water. Many different generator designs have been adapted, typically, by modifying the flywheel, filling in the
keyway and cutting another one to give a spark 2 degrees after TDC. Experience has shown that the 6.6 kVA
Honda V-twin petrol motor generator and the Vanguard V-twin work very well long-term when adapted to run on
water only.

[Jason]

Jason,

Have you studied Stanley's patents? Researched his history and death? Researched the technology?

Now we have come back full circle. I started out by saying that I don't believe the physics, and the math., or in a grand conspiracy to get rid of the water carburetor, and kill anybody involved.

Remember TANSTAAFL?

I also said that I don't believe in some murky over arching conspiracy of Illuminati, or whoever, that are not major stockholders, are not major executives, and are not the scientists or engineers working for any identifiable Oil Companies, conspiring to murder anybody who might endanger the Oil Companies hold on American transportation

Since I don't believe the math and the physics, I'm not going spend a lot of time investigating that which I am completely convinced is bogus.

While I do believe in conspiracies, I don't believe in these crazy conspiracies that are whispered and rumored about by those who marinate in this stuff. I do believe in cronyism conspiracies, where people in big business, use money to buy off politicians to support legislation and rules that secretly help them and destroy competition, but grand schemes that the illuminati, the CFR, or the Rothschild's are running the world are bogus.


So I don't know why you wasted my time in showing me various potential gadgets that are being worked on, that might improve fuel economy, that nobody is suppressing as some sort of proof of this grand conspiracy. I already spent more time than I have chasing these non sequitur links you gave me out of respect for you.

If you have some short, simple , clear proof of this, out of respect for you, I will read it. Otherwise, I will have to conclude, that while you make sense on a lot of topics, I am going to have to sadly conclude that you are a conspiracy Kool-Aid drinker.

Regards,

George Clay

Same reason you are wasting time responding on something you are completely convinced is bogus...

[Jason]

If he could build such a car, why cannot anyone else?
Why aren't there others making this car? The conspiracy killed everyone who could potentially build this car? If he could figure it out, why couldn't anyone else.
dc

thats where real rubber would meet a real road.

LOL...how do you know there aren't??

Some people are smart enough regarding the system and how it operates....that they quietly go about the their business.

Others recognize the economic costs and risks associated with such endeavors (not to mention personal risks) and don't rock the boat.

Its like knowing that Washington DC is corrupt...how many here on "LDS Freedom Forum" that have posted ad nauseam on fraud and corruption and even conspiracies (a few of which George noted above)....have torn our cloaks and marched on Washington???

[shadow]

If he could build such a car, why cannot anyone else?
Why aren't there others making this car? The conspiracy killed everyone who could potentially build this car? If he could figure it out, why couldn't anyone else.
dc

thats where real rubber would meet a real road.

LOL...how do you know there aren't??

Some people are smart enough regarding the system and how it operates....that they quietly go about the their business.

Others recognize the economic costs and risks associated with such endeavors (not to mention personal risks) and don't rock the boat.

I have no idea if people are driving around with these engines or not. I don't know if there's a working Iron Man suit or not either. Supposedly, from what Conrad posted above, it's all explained in a video. Ezra could probably build one in short order. Maybe he already has??

[Jason]

dconrad000,

I may have been a little too hard on you. I told Jason, that if he could show me "briefly" how this magic water carburetor overcomes the physics and math behind

TANSTAAFL (There ain't no such thing as a free lunch), then I would spend a bit more time reading what he has to offer.

OK, If you can give me in a few sentences a convincing argument as to how you can use less energy to break water down into Hydrogen and oxygen, than you get by burning Hydrogen in the presence of oxygen to get water I will watch your conspiratorial videos.

Regards,

George Clay

this is one of the frustrating parts of ignorance..."magic water carburetor"...as there is no such thing that exists in that context...

The rest of the response is for those interested....so don't waste your time if you aren't...or don't blame me if you choose to do what you consider to be a waste of time...

When I did my research over the summer of 2004 there were 997 patents on vapor carburetors.

Gasoline or petrol engines function by burning gasoline vapor....not the liquid fuel. If you can bypass the vapor on the surface...you can put a match out in the fuel. The liquid fuel DOES NOT burn.

Hence the challenge is vaporizing as much of the fuel as possible. The carburetor as mentioned previously in this thread is mechanism for inputting fuel into the engine and for vaporizing as much of that fuel as possible before it enters the combustion chambers. "Vapor carburetor" is just name only...they are just different types of carburetors that may or may not be more efficient at vaporizing the fuel mixture. Many of them used materials that functioned as catalysts...which decomposed the fuel chemically (like engine exhaust through catalytic converter) prior to it entering the engine. One of the critical factors in a successful vapor carburetor is the use of “white” gasoline which containes no additives. Lead was one of the early additives that prevented vapor carburetors from working and in the last 30-40 years dozens of other additives have been added to the mix to prevent subsequent and future creative engineering efforts with "vapor" carburetors.

There is a long and extensive history of different methods and attempts to create more efficient atomization of hydrocarbons in petrol or gasoline. And some ill dealing with more successful inventors like Tom Ogle, Charles Pogue, and many many others.

....image doesn't seem to want to post for some reason so here's the link...
http://fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/ener ... arlits.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and source...
http://fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/ener ... age_id=986" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is completely separate from use of hydrogen as a fuel for internal combustion engines. Water is simply a means of acquiring hydrogen. Doing it at the engine source bypasses the safety and economically costly storage mechanisms for hydrogen. Water is very safe to store and an abundant source of hydrogen. The challenge comes in separating the 2 hydrogen atoms from the oxygen atom....as well as dealing with everything else in the water (impurities).

I've personally built some hydrogen generators using electrolysis...running electrical current through the water (amps) to create hydrogen and oxygen which perhaps later ended up in a combustion engine (you know there's a hefty fuel tax fine if you get caught on public roads using an alternative untaxed fuel right...lots of used oil or grease burners - i.e. biodiesel have been burned on this one). Problem is corrosion, heat, current draw off the alternator, etc in return for the amount of hydrogen & oxygen produced.

Simple explanation here -
http://witcombe.sbc.edu/water/chemistry ... lysis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and here -
http://www.instructables.com/id/Separat ... hrough-El/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stanley's efforts were based on using voltage or pressure to break the covalent electrical bonding of the hydrogen and oxygen atoms...or in simpler terms creating enough positive and negative force to draw them respectively apart. There are some significant challenges with this method that Stanley appeared to resolve by creating a mechanism for varying or modulating the voltage.

More on his work here -
http://rexresearch.com/meyerhy/meyermemo.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and here -
http://www.rivendellvillage.org/Stanley ... s_Cell.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and here -
http://www.edenguard.fr/Docs%20NRJ%20Et ... ircuit.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

By way of disclaimer...I haven't built one of the latter. I'm not an engineer. I've read through the material and it makes sense to me. When I am in a capable position I intend to build one. I also find the circumstances regarding Stanley's death shortly after significant investment into his technology...highly ironic...and coupled with my historical studies of secret combinations (government, business, and banking)...suspect he was correct in determining foul play prior to dying in the parking lot.

[Jason]

If he could build such a car, why cannot anyone else?
Why aren't there others making this car? The conspiracy killed everyone who could potentially build this car? If he could figure it out, why couldn't anyone else.
dc

thats where real rubber would meet a real road.

LOL...how do you know there aren't??

Some people are smart enough regarding the system and how it operates....that they quietly go about the their business.

Others recognize the economic costs and risks associated with such endeavors (not to mention personal risks) and don't rock the boat.

I have no idea if people are driving around with these engines or not. I don't know if there's a working Iron Man suit or not either. Supposedly, from what Conrad posted above, it's all explained in a video. Ezra could probably build one in short order. Maybe he already has??

....maybe he has...maybe others have...I reckon you'll just have to wonder....

[dconrad000]

I have no idea if people are driving around with these engines or not. I don't know if there's a working Iron Man suit or not either. Supposedly, from what Conrad posted above, it's all explained in a video. Ezra could probably build one in short order. Maybe he already has??

LOL...I appreciate the humor injection.

[Jason]

fyi - for all of you who wonder why such things are not broadcast...and ya don't see dudes broadcasting...

Using alternative fuels (for example vegetable oil for diesels) as a fuel without paying fuel tax on it is considered tax evasion. The EPA can fine you for toxic air pollution if the fuels aren’t tested and approved prior to use by the EPA. You are required by federal law to submit the necessary registration forms for alternative fuel use. In fact, your are banned from tinkering with your vehicle emissions unless you have EPA certification according to the Clean Air Act - https://www.epa.gov/enforcement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Even if you have the EPA certification any modification to your vehicle is not legal unless it has been through an emissions certification procedure.

That's the federal stuff and then you have the state fuel tax aspect -

http://herald-review.com/news/local/sta ... 83327.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alternative Fuel Tax - Non-licensed persons who use untaxed alternate fuel in a taxable manner. This includes persons that refuel licensed motor vehicles, snowmobiles, recreational motorboats, or all-terrain vehicles (unless the ATV is registered for private use) from personal (home) refueling units where the excise tax has not been paid.

Alternative Fuel Tax License - You must obtain an alternate fuel tax license if you will place alternate fuel into the supply tanks of licensed motor vehicles, snowmobiles, motorboats, or all-terrain vehicles (unless the ATV is registered for private use).

Security required - The department may require persons who are responsible for paying the alternate fuel tax to have security (e.g., cash, bond) on file. The amount of security cannot exceed three times a licensee's average monthly liability for alternate fuel tax.

Revocation of fuel licenses - It is very important that licensees file their reports timely and pay any amount owing. Licensees with poor filing and/or payment records may have their licenses revoked by the department.

Late-filing penalty - 5% per month, maximum 25%
Delinquent interest - 1.5% per month
Unpaid taxes bear interest at the rate of 12% per year
Negligence penalty of 25% of the tax is imposed if there was negligence in filing a report
Fraud penalty of 50% of the tax is imposed if there was intent to defeat or evade the alternate fuel tax

The alternate fuel tax is not imposed on:
Alternate fuel sold to the United States government or its agencies (e.g., Armed Forces, U.S. Postal Service).
Alternate fuel sold to common motor carriers for the urban mass transportation of passengers.

[Ezra]

No iron man suit. But I do have plans for a street legal amphibious long travel front and rear ifs 4x4.

As well as a 77 international scout with a 12 valve cummins on 1 tons that should get close to 35 mpg. Using the same motor tyranny as this.

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Which is a 55mpg cummins truck.

[David13]

fyi - for all of you who wonder why such things are not broadcast...and ya don't see dudes broadcasting...

Using alternative fuels (for example vegetable oil for diesels) as a fuel without paying fuel tax on it is considered tax evasion. The EPA can fine you for toxic air pollution if the fuels aren’t tested and approved prior to use by the EPA. You are required by federal law to submit the necessary registration forms for alternative fuel use. In fact, your are banned from tinkering with your vehicle emissions unless you have EPA certification according to the Clean Air Act - https://www.epa.gov/enforcement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Even if you have the EPA certification any modification to your vehicle is not legal unless it has been through an emissions certification procedure.

That's the federal stuff and then you have the state fuel tax aspect -

http://herald-review.com/news/local/sta ... 83327.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alternative Fuel Tax - Non-licensed persons who use untaxed alternate fuel in a taxable manner. This includes persons that refuel licensed motor vehicles, snowmobiles, recreational motorboats, or all-terrain vehicles (unless the ATV is registered for private use) from personal (home) refueling units where the excise tax has not been paid.

Alternative Fuel Tax License - You must obtain an alternate fuel tax license if you will place alternate fuel into the supply tanks of licensed motor vehicles, snowmobiles, motorboats, or all-terrain vehicles (unless the ATV is registered for private use).

Security required - The department may require persons who are responsible for paying the alternate fuel tax to have security (e.g., cash, bond) on file. The amount of security cannot exceed three times a licensee's average monthly liability for alternate fuel tax.

Revocation of fuel licenses - It is very important that licensees file their reports timely and pay any amount owing. Licensees with poor filing and/or payment records may have their licenses revoked by the department.

Late-filing penalty - 5% per month, maximum 25%
Delinquent interest - 1.5% per month
Unpaid taxes bear interest at the rate of 12% per year
Negligence penalty of 25% of the tax is imposed if there was negligence in filing a report
Fraud penalty of 50% of the tax is imposed if there was intent to defeat or evade the alternate fuel tax

The alternate fuel tax is not imposed on:
Alternate fuel sold to the United States government or its agencies (e.g., Armed Forces, U.S. Postal Service).
Alternate fuel sold to common motor carriers for the urban mass transportation of passengers.

Jason
That is not any conspiracy, in a sense. It is just the vast overreach of the federal government, and now most or all of the states as well.
It's a very similar thing in the modern day snake oil sales department. People sell various miracle cure herbs, spices, and other things and make the claim that they cure maybe 100 diseases, including cancer.
No different than the old snake oil days, as none of those products are tested according to any particular testing procedure, only a satisfied customer (or shill?) who swears that it cured his cancer.
The feds come in and shut them down as well.
But is that a good thing or a bad thing? We do realize that once upon a time the snake oil salesmen did kill quite a few people, and the false cancer cure people do also, by causing people to not seek more conventional treatment that may be more effective.
I'm a skeptic.
I have seen, over the years, dozens of "run your car on water", etc., ads in the back of various magazines. Sold from a post office box. Or on tv, "Not sold in stores". Why not?
Well, if it's sold in a store, people know where to go to get their money back when they find it doesn't work.
So, when I see it in a showroom at a dealer, and they say come in and drive it for yourself, then I'll (MAYBE) believe.
I believe none of what I hear, and only half of what I see.
And I mean see in person.
dc

[gclayjr]

kensurplus,

You follow the same pattern as many who seem to think they can cover BS, by linking or quoting masses of BS assertions that are lengthy and non substantive. That is why I asked Jason... and you to give me a simple statement in YOUR OWN WORDS. Rather than simply asking me to watch lengthy BS videos or read lengthy BS reports.

I will explain why this is all BS, in the way I asked you to refute it.

I will refer to the first law of Thermodynamics "quoted from PhysicsforIdiots.com

First law of thermodynamics – Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process, the total energy of the universe remains the same. For a thermodynamic cycle the net heat supplied to the system equals the net work done by the system.

What this says is it doesn't matter how you perform the reaction to break H2O into H2 + O2 it cannot be done with LESS energy than is returned by burning H2 + O2 to make H2O. If so, the first law of thermodynamics becomes null and void. There are many ways to do this, and electrolysis of water is one of them. This is notoriously inefficient, usually way less than 50%. Some methods are less inefficient than others. Increasing the voltage is more efficient than doing it with a lower voltage. Maybe there can be inefficiencies that can be made by using different electrodes, there are differences in inefficiencies that can be had by different temperatures and pressures, There maybe ways through materials a way of minimizing losses due to temperature transfers, and other things. OK. SO most electrolysis set ups are much less than 50% efficient and maybe your magic water carburetor (or fuel injector), can improve these inefficiencies, but since by the laws of physics, and chemistry, the best a perfect system can do is break even and use just as much energy to create H2 and O2 from H2O as is released when burning H2 and O2 to make back H2O.

So recognizing that the best a 100% efficient system can to is reproduce itself without producing any energy to use (to run the car), can you explain in your own words without simply pasting in links to BS assertions. simply answer what is the principle used here that allows this magic carburetor to break the 1st law of thermal dynamics which has never been broken in any other situation with the possible exception of nuclear reactions????


If you can't do this then I will assume this is all just BS.

Regards,

George Clay

[Jason]

fyi - for all of you who wonder why such things are not broadcast...and ya don't see dudes broadcasting...

Using alternative fuels (for example vegetable oil for diesels) as a fuel without paying fuel tax on it is considered tax evasion. The EPA can fine you for toxic air pollution if the fuels aren’t tested and approved prior to use by the EPA. You are required by federal law to submit the necessary registration forms for alternative fuel use. In fact, your are banned from tinkering with your vehicle emissions unless you have EPA certification according to the Clean Air Act - https://www.epa.gov/enforcement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Even if you have the EPA certification any modification to your vehicle is not legal unless it has been through an emissions certification procedure.

That's the federal stuff and then you have the state fuel tax aspect -

http://herald-review.com/news/local/sta ... 83327.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alternative Fuel Tax - Non-licensed persons who use untaxed alternate fuel in a taxable manner. This includes persons that refuel licensed motor vehicles, snowmobiles, recreational motorboats, or all-terrain vehicles (unless the ATV is registered for private use) from personal (home) refueling units where the excise tax has not been paid.

Alternative Fuel Tax License - You must obtain an alternate fuel tax license if you will place alternate fuel into the supply tanks of licensed motor vehicles, snowmobiles, motorboats, or all-terrain vehicles (unless the ATV is registered for private use).

Security required - The department may require persons who are responsible for paying the alternate fuel tax to have security (e.g., cash, bond) on file. The amount of security cannot exceed three times a licensee's average monthly liability for alternate fuel tax.

Revocation of fuel licenses - It is very important that licensees file their reports timely and pay any amount owing. Licensees with poor filing and/or payment records may have their licenses revoked by the department.

Late-filing penalty - 5% per month, maximum 25%
Delinquent interest - 1.5% per month
Unpaid taxes bear interest at the rate of 12% per year
Negligence penalty of 25% of the tax is imposed if there was negligence in filing a report
Fraud penalty of 50% of the tax is imposed if there was intent to defeat or evade the alternate fuel tax

The alternate fuel tax is not imposed on:
Alternate fuel sold to the United States government or its agencies (e.g., Armed Forces, U.S. Postal Service).
Alternate fuel sold to common motor carriers for the urban mass transportation of passengers.

Jason
That is not any conspiracy, in a sense. It is just the vast overreach of the federal government, and now most or all of the states as well.
It's a very similar thing in the modern day snake oil sales department. People sell various miracle cure herbs, spices, and other things and make the claim that they cure maybe 100 diseases, including cancer.
No different than the old snake oil days, as none of those products are tested according to any particular testing procedure, only a satisfied customer (or shill?) who swears that it cured his cancer.
The feds come in and shut them down as well.
But is that a good thing or a bad thing? We do realize that once upon a time the snake oil salesmen did kill quite a few people, and the false cancer cure people do also, by causing people to not seek more conventional treatment that may be more effective.
I'm a skeptic.
I have seen, over the years, dozens of "run your car on water", etc., ads in the back of various magazines. Sold from a post office box. Or on tv, "Not sold in stores". Why not?
Well, if it's sold in a store, people know where to go to get their money back when they find it doesn't work.
So, when I see it in a showroom at a dealer, and they say come in and drive it for yourself, then I'll (MAYBE) believe.
I believe none of what I hear, and only half of what I see.
And I mean see in person.
dc

Skeptism is a two way street...both for the system and those outside the establishment.

For every example of unapproved snake oil...an example of approved snake oil can be demonstrated. From pharmaceuticals to food supplements.

Your belief in the showroom is no more relevant than the back alley.

To truly determine you must study and research...there is no short cut.

I'll give you an easy non-automotive example...aspartame. It's approved by the government and the general overall food supply system. You can easily find it throughout the shelves of your local food stores. Is it snake oil? Or is it safe and good for you?

If it is not good and safe for you...why does the food system utilize it? Why and how did the government come to support it? Does the fact it's on the grocery store shelves automatically guarantee its not snake oil and good for you?

[Jason]

kensurplus,

You follow the same pattern as many who seem to think they can cover BS, by linking or quoting masses of BS assertions that are lengthy and non substantive. That is why I asked Jason... and you to give me a simple statement in YOUR OWN WORDS. Rather than simply asking me to watch lengthy BS videos or read lengthy BS reports.

I will explain why this is all BS, in the way I asked you to refute it.

I will refer to the first law of Thermodynamics "quoted from PhysicsforIdiots.com

First law of thermodynamics – Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process, the total energy of the universe remains the same. For a thermodynamic cycle the net heat supplied to the system equals the net work done by the system.

What this says is it doesn't matter how you perform the reaction to break H2O into H2 + O2 it cannot be done with LESS energy than is returned by burning H2 + O2 to make H2O. If so, the first law of thermodynamics becomes null and void. There are many ways to do this, and electrolysis of water is one of them. This is notoriously inefficient, usually way less than 50%. Some methods are less inefficient than others. Increasing the voltage is more efficient than doing it with a lower voltage. Maybe there can be inefficiencies that can be made by using different electrodes, there are differences in inefficiencies that can be had by different temperatures and pressures, There maybe ways through materials a way of minimizing losses due to temperature transfers, and other things. OK. SO most electrolysis set ups are much less than 50% efficient and maybe your magic water carburetor (or fuel injector), can improve these inefficiencies, but since by the laws of physics, and chemistry, the best a perfect system can do is break even and use just as much energy to create H2 and O2 from H2O as is released when burning H2 and O2 to make back H2O.

So recognizing that the best a 100% efficient system can to is reproduce itself without producing any energy to use (to run the car), can you explain in your own words without simply pasting in links to BS assertions. simply answer what is the principle used here that allows this magic carburetor to break the 1st law of thermal dynamics which has never been broken in any other situation with the possible exception of nuclear reactions????


If you can't do this then I will assume this is all just BS.

Regards,

George Clay

Is the law correct? Is it being applied correctly and consistently?

Matter can neither be created or destroyed. Energy is a little more muddy. Especially when you start looking at chemical reactions....or nuclear reactions.

Speaking of conspiracies...

One of the granddaddy's when it comes to energy and transportation goes back to little known whack job Nikola and his antenna theory of tapping into the ionosphere. Easy to discount him but the reality of using his alternating current on a daily basis over a century later, wireless communications, and AND logic gates which are the basis for modern computing....

But big money decided the outcome...false priests and tyrants who reign with blood and horror...

[Teancum]

First law of thermodynamics – Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process, the total energy of the universe remains the same. For a thermodynamic cycle the net heat supplied to the system equals the net work done by the system.

What is dark matter? Why cant we see it, or measure it, except by the effect it has on celestial bodies? How does dark matter fit into these laws of thermodynamics? Why is it that spirit (of which we know exists because of scripture - something I hold inviolate far more than textbooks and physicsfordummies) can cause a body to live and breathe and cycle energy through itself, but without that spirit in it, the body does not? Why is a body composed of mostly water? What is it with this water thing? Why must we be baptized in water? Do you know all the mysteries of water? If you don't why did you allow yourself to be baptized (assuming you even did)? Since you have so much regard for the oil companies, why didnt you demand to be baptized in gasoline, or diesel, or 10W-40 engine oil? (according to you, you should get a lot more out of it! Might even make the family proud!) How do miracles work? Do those who work miracles need to stop and consult the textbook to see if it jives with the laws of thermodynamics before they do their miracle? How much energy is in a glass of water?

If you can't answer, then I consider all that you have said is B.S.

[shadow]

thats where real rubber would meet a real road.

LOL...how do you know there aren't??

Some people are smart enough regarding the system and how it operates....that they quietly go about the their business.

Others recognize the economic costs and risks associated with such endeavors (not to mention personal risks) and don't rock the boat.

I have no idea if people are driving around with these engines or not. I don't know if there's a working Iron Man suit or not either. Supposedly, from what Conrad posted above, it's all explained in a video. Ezra could probably build one in short order. Maybe he already has??

....maybe he has...maybe others have...I reckon you'll just have to wonder....

I suppose we're in the exact same boat then.

[David13]

fyi - for all of you who wonder why such things are not broadcast...and ya don't see dudes broadcasting...

Using alternative fuels (for example vegetable oil for diesels) as a fuel without paying fuel tax on it is considered tax evasion. The EPA can fine you for toxic air pollution if the fuels aren’t tested and approved prior to use by the EPA. You are required by federal law to submit the necessary registration forms for alternative fuel use. In fact, your are banned from tinkering with your vehicle emissions unless you have EPA certification according to the Clean Air Act - https://www.epa.gov/enforcement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Even if you have the EPA certification any modification to your vehicle is not legal unless it has been through an emissions certification procedure.

That's the federal stuff and then you have the state fuel tax aspect -

http://herald-review.com/news/local/sta ... 83327.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alternative Fuel Tax - Non-licensed persons who use untaxed alternate fuel in a taxable manner. This includes persons that refuel licensed motor vehicles, snowmobiles, recreational motorboats, or all-terrain vehicles (unless the ATV is registered for private use) from personal (home) refueling units where the excise tax has not been paid.

Alternative Fuel Tax License - You must obtain an alternate fuel tax license if you will place alternate fuel into the supply tanks of licensed motor vehicles, snowmobiles, motorboats, or all-terrain vehicles (unless the ATV is registered for private use).

Security required - The department may require persons who are responsible for paying the alternate fuel tax to have security (e.g., cash, bond) on file. The amount of security cannot exceed three times a licensee's average monthly liability for alternate fuel tax.

Revocation of fuel licenses - It is very important that licensees file their reports timely and pay any amount owing. Licensees with poor filing and/or payment records may have their licenses revoked by the department.

Late-filing penalty - 5% per month, maximum 25%
Delinquent interest - 1.5% per month
Unpaid taxes bear interest at the rate of 12% per year
Negligence penalty of 25% of the tax is imposed if there was negligence in filing a report
Fraud penalty of 50% of the tax is imposed if there was intent to defeat or evade the alternate fuel tax

The alternate fuel tax is not imposed on:
Alternate fuel sold to the United States government or its agencies (e.g., Armed Forces, U.S. Postal Service).
Alternate fuel sold to common motor carriers for the urban mass transportation of passengers.

Jason
That is not any conspiracy, in a sense. It is just the vast overreach of the federal government, and now most or all of the states as well.
It's a very similar thing in the modern day snake oil sales department. People sell various miracle cure herbs, spices, and other things and make the claim that they cure maybe 100 diseases, including cancer.
No different than the old snake oil days, as none of those products are tested according to any particular testing procedure, only a satisfied customer (or shill?) who swears that it cured his cancer.
The feds come in and shut them down as well.
But is that a good thing or a bad thing? We do realize that once upon a time the snake oil salesmen did kill quite a few people, and the false cancer cure people do also, by causing people to not seek more conventional treatment that may be more effective.
I'm a skeptic.
I have seen, over the years, dozens of "run your car on water", etc., ads in the back of various magazines. Sold from a post office box. Or on tv, "Not sold in stores". Why not?
Well, if it's sold in a store, people know where to go to get their money back when they find it doesn't work.
So, when I see it in a showroom at a dealer, and they say come in and drive it for yourself, then I'll (MAYBE) believe.
I believe none of what I hear, and only half of what I see.
And I mean see in person.
dc

Skeptism is a two way street...both for the system and those outside the establishment.

For every example of unapproved snake oil...an example of approved snake oil can be demonstrated. From pharmaceuticals to food supplements.

Your belief in the showroom is no more relevant than the back alley.

To truly determine you must study and research...there is no short cut.

I'll give you an easy non-automotive example...aspartame. It's approved by the government and the general overall food supply system. You can easily find it throughout the shelves of your local food stores. Is it snake oil? Or is it safe and good for you?

If it is not good and safe for you...why does the food system utilize it? Why and how did the government come to support it? Does the fact it's on the grocery store shelves automatically guarantee its not snake oil and good for you?

I already said I'm skeptical. So, like they say, I'm already there, dude.
But the showroom is not the back street. You can't tell me you'd rather buy a car in a back alley than a showroom.
And yes, we do know that there are showrooms, and then there are showrooms.
dc

[gclayjr]

kenssurplus,

What is dark matter? Why cant we see it, or measure it, except by the effect it has on celestial bodies? How does dark matter fit into these laws of thermodynamics?

Dark matter is a hypothetical substance that is thought by most astronomers to account for approximately 85% of the matter in the universe. Although it has not been directly observed, its existence and properties are inferred from its various gravitational effects such as the motions of visible matter, via gravitational lensing, its influence on the universe's large-scale structure, and its effects in the cosmic microwave background. Dark matter is transparent to electromagnetic radiation and/or is so dense and small that it fails to absorb or emit enough radiation to be detectable with current imaging technology.

You're right, in the fact that since this is hypothetical, we can't see it or measure it.

Also, since it is hypothetical, we can't run our car on it.!!!

Before, we can harness any such unidentified material, we need to gain this knowledge. Otherwise it is just one more mystery, which may be interesting, but has no practical value.

I guess it is the same with whatever mystical magic power your magic water carburetor uses.

Regards,

George Clay

[Jason]

LOL...how do you know there aren't??

Some people are smart enough regarding the system and how it operates....that they quietly go about the their business.

Others recognize the economic costs and risks associated with such endeavors (not to mention personal risks) and don't rock the boat.

I have no idea if people are driving around with these engines or not. I don't know if there's a working Iron Man suit or not either. Supposedly, from what Conrad posted above, it's all explained in a video. Ezra could probably build one in short order. Maybe he already has??

....maybe he has...maybe others have...I reckon you'll just have to wonder....

I suppose we're in the exact same boat then.

And will be until the current framework changes...as it's basically illegal today to experiment and tinker like what has been done in the past...thus relegating tinkering folks to silent and secret tinkering for personal benefit only.

So we are left with passing some documents around on the web and discussing more public past developments.

And everybody's individual belief systems regarding them...

[dconrad000]

Gclayjr:

In case you were being sincere when you requested a few sentences that might make sense to you, I have thought of a few sentences that might help you to begin to wrap your mind around it:

The crux of it boils down to this:

Conventional wisdom asserts that to split hydrogen atoms from water molecules, more electrical energy is required than what could be harvested by combustion of the hydrogen. That was the major hurdle to overcome.

However, what Stanley Meyer discovered was that he could use a tiny amount of amperage coupled with high voltage, pulsed and modulated in a certain way to split the hydrogen atoms from the water molecules...thus using but a tiny amount of total electrical energy, overall -- supplied by the battery, which is charged by the alternator with operation of the combustion engine running on hydrogen...thus allowing him to substitute water in the fuel tank in place of gasoline. Stanley Meyer explains and demonstrates in detail how that all works, in the videos I posted above, for any who might have further curiosity or interest.

I acknowledge that given our current circumstances, the information is of no practical value to most people, including myself...merely a curiosity until circumstances change at some future point.

[Ezra]

Gclayjr:

In case you were being sincere when you requested a few sentences that might make sense to you, I have thought of a few sentences that might help you to begin to wrap your mind around it:

The crux of it boils down to this:

Conventional wisdom asserts that to split hydrogen atoms from water molecules, more electrical energy is required than what could be harvested by combustion of the hydrogen. That was the major hurdle to overcome.

However, what Stanley Meyer discovered was that he could use a tiny amount of amperage coupled with high voltage, pulsed and modulated in a certain way to split the hydrogen atoms from the water molecules...thus using but a tiny amount of total electrical energy, overall -- supplied by the battery, which is charged by the alternator with operation of the combustion engine running on hydrogen...thus allowing him to substitute water in the fuel tank in place of gasoline. Stanley Meyer explains and demonstrates in detail how that all works, in the videos I posted above, for any who might have further curiosity or interest.

I acknowledge that given our current circumstances, the information is of no practical value to most people, including myself...merely a curiosity until circumstances change at some future point.

It has to do with the frequency of water and the compounding frequencys.

Which tesla also studied and did mind boggling things with like toroid transformers. Even though I have built one I don't understand how they work. Makes no sence to me. And still seems like magic.

[David13]

Well the internal combustion engine will seem like magic to those who don't know about them, haven't seen much of them, and don't understand how they work.
But, my question is, with such a simple explanation as to how this works, why cannot someone duplicate it? Why cannot Ezra duplicate it and produce the carburetor or a car to run it in?
Why can't someone?
dc

Could it be that it doesn't work? Or could it be that the process must be so critically precise that it becomes impossible to duplicate the operation for any period of time?
Who would buy the product if it worked for a few days or a week, then quit?

[dconrad000]

David13, the answers to your questions are contained in the videos I posted. You will understand if you decide to watch them. If you decide to watch them, I recommend starting with second one, which is only 6 minutes long.

This starts out in Dutch as the interviewers are Dutch, but they switch over to English when Stanley Meyer comes out. Stanley Meyer then proceeds to show them everything about the car and explains in detail how it works.