Colorado and Marijuana--??

[Ezra]

Lol

Ohh Jason. pray to God. Ask him for guidance.

Read many are called few are chosen by h verlan Anderson as you were asked to do.

Remember 2 nephi 28:30. You must do your part.

[Jason]

Lol

Ohh Jason. pray to God. Ask him for guidance.

Read many are called few are chosen by h verlan Anderson as you were asked to do.

Remember 2 nephi 28:30. You must do your part.

Read it. Don't agree with your interpretation.

The use of the police power to compel the citizen to pay his taxes, serve in the armed forces, and otherwise support his government in protecting him, makes possible its existence in the first place. Indeed the protection of life, liberty and property in our society would be rendered virtually impossible without it. There is no violation of conscience in requiring those who are protected to pay their fair share of the cost of what they need and receive.

http://www.redhotlogo.com/2-Many%20Called.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...morals and morality is at the heart of the entire written work...and one of the fundamental concepts for the creation of government.

Read every pronouncement by church leadership with regard to moral laws....

[Ezra]

You don't agree that you have to be willing to receive wisdom?

[Army Of Truth]

Smoking and Death

Cigarette smoking is the leading preventable cause of death in the United States.1

Cigarette smoking causes more than 480,000 deaths each year in the United States. This is nearly one in five deaths.

Smoking causes more deaths each year than the following causes combined:
Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)
Illegal drug use
Alcohol use
Motor vehicle injuries
Firearm-related incidents

More than 10 times as many U.S. citizens have died prematurely from cigarette smoking than have died in all the wars fought by the United States during its history.

Smoking causes about 90% (or 9 out of 10) of all lung cancer deaths in men and women. More women die from lung cancer each year than from breast cancer.

About 80% (or 8 out of 10) of all deaths from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) are caused by smoking.

Cigarette smoking increases risk for death from all causes in men and women.

The risk of dying from cigarette smoking has increased over the last 50 years in men and women in the United States.

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statist ... g_smoking/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tobacco deaths DWARF that of MJ! For all those who want to ban MJ and are pro-force, do you also want to ban tobacco?
If not, why not? The same principles you use to ban MJ should also be used to ban tobacco, alcohol, soft drinks, trans fats, belladonna plants, etc, etc, etc. See the slippery slope?

[Rachael]

If God put a tree in the midst of the Garden that caused the downfall of humanity by partaking, should we follow suit and allow any kind of plant out of the priniple of free will, or supress "evil" plants? Hmmm...

Perfect analogy! :ymapplause:

Except for God saying Adam fell that men might have joy. we have been taught that the fall of Adam was good. Not bad.

Yeah. Opposition in all things, taste bitterness to prize the good. I've thought about it. It would have been nice to live in a world with no death, no evil. Guess we wouldn't appreciate it though. And if Adam and Eve could have procreated, one of the kids would have ate it. So that would be really chaotic. Some family lines immortal, some of their kindred mortal and fallen, so I guess its better we all fall and many hopefully saved

[kennyhs]

Smoking and Death

Cigarette smoking is the leading preventable cause of death in the United States.1

Cigarette smoking causes more than 480,000 deaths each year in the United States. This is nearly one in five deaths.

Smoking causes more deaths each year than the following causes combined:
Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)
Illegal drug use
Alcohol use
Motor vehicle injuries
Firearm-related incidents

More than 10 times as many U.S. citizens have died prematurely from cigarette smoking than have died in all the wars fought by the United States during its history.

Smoking causes about 90% (or 9 out of 10) of all lung cancer deaths in men and women. More women die from lung cancer each year than from breast cancer.

About 80% (or 8 out of 10) of all deaths from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) are caused by smoking.

Cigarette smoking increases risk for death from all causes in men and women.

The risk of dying from cigarette smoking has increased over the last 50 years in men and women in the United States.

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statist ... g_smoking/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tobacco deaths DWARF that of MJ! For all those who want to ban MJ and are pro-force, do you also want to ban tobacco?
If not, why not? The same principles you use to ban MJ should also be used to ban tobacco, alcohol, soft drinks, trans fats, belladonna plants, etc, etc, etc. See the slippery slope?

ThIs argument would be more effective if applied to alcohol, tobacco does not interfere with driving, learning, nor create a high. The many lives drunk driving has taken, the families it has destroyed, should be an example to society of the harm mind altering substances do to innocent people. Finally laws have made a difference in these people getting away with driving intoxicated. Now our enforcerment agencies are scrambling to implement a way to field test for intoxication by MJ. How is that saving money?

And yes, some people need their agency taken away from them, the only control over themselves is while incarcerated.

And yes, if I were a judge, I would punish anyone caught drivng under the influence very harshly, their agency stops there! I recall an accident where a five year old girl was killed, the man who hit the car she was in had 4 previous DUI'S.
Does anyone remember how many innocent people died before something was done? MADD,
( Mother's against drunk driving) helped with the crackdown.

There are plenty of bad choices to make in this life, that doesn't mean they need to be legal. What's next? Why aren't you lobbying for all Medicine to be legally obtained? Aren't most derived from a plant? Ignorance is bliss, and legalizing MJ is ignorant. I hope you will be happy with the consequences, because ignorance only looks for benefits, it is not a wise steward.

[Ezra]

Drunk driving kills an average of 10,000 people annually. Pretty small comparied to cigarettes.

Still doctors kill are right around the same as cigarettes.

It's cigarettes
Doctors
Obesity related.

So doctors and fast food are more dangerous then mj.

So Kenny your wanting to put your trust into docs???? To prescribe things. You have to understand they want you sick so they have a job. Seems a conflict of interests.

[kennyhs]

Drunk driving kills an average of 10,000 people annually. Pretty small comparied to cigarettes.

Still doctors kill are right around the same as cigarettes.

It's cigarettes
Doctors
Obesity related.

So doctors and fast food are more dangerous then mj.

So Kenny your wanting to put your trust into docs???? To prescribe things. You have to understand they want you sick so they have a job. Seems a conflict of interests.

And who are the 10,000 drunk driving usually killing ? Innocent people, seems the intoxicated driver usually lives, or is not even injured due to his
pickled condition.

Who do you trust Ezra? You say if our leaders aren't deceived, you trust them. Like Jason said, " Aren't you a member of the Church?"
" Oh yea of little faith." This Church organization is run by Jesus Christ Himself, it is His Church. Do you trust Him?

[Ezra]

Are the church leaders going out campaigning to take away all our agency? To law every man woman and child into health sobriety and morality?

No they are not.

We don't disagree on punishing people who have done wrong. Every person who dose harm to others under the influence should be punished by law for their trespass. They should make restitution for what they have done.

I wish no one would get high or drunk or smoke. Or tattoo themselfs up or eat unhealthy. I wish no one would sin. But I can't make them.

Kenny do you have kids? Did you spank them and punish them into a perfect life???

Or Did you encourage them into understanding how to learn grow and better themselfs?

If both what worked better?

Did your parenting work where they never sinned?




Do I trust Christ?
yes. I'm good friends with my savior.

Are the leaders of the church perfect.

No they are not. They are only men. Really good men. But just men.
And God allows them their agency to err. Just as he allows them their agency to do good.

Do you believe that their are men living on the moon as a few of our prophets said???

“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?... When you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 271


They are not perfect. They each have their own understandings. They do their best.

We must make sure what we understand is inline with gods. So we must have a close relationship with the spirit. We should always make sure what is said by the prophets is in line with the scriptures and inline with God.

The scriptures warn of those who preach all is well in Zion. Do they not???? Yet we have heard from the leadership all is well.

We have heard that the prophet can never lead the member astray and even if they asked us to do wrong we should. Ezra Taft benson.

Yet Joseph smith said the opposite.

We have heard men who had the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them, if they knew it was wrong. But such obedience as this is worse than folly to us. It is slavery in the extreme, and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turned from his folly. Others in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their presidents they should do it without asking any questions. When the elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with.

Joseph smith jr.
Millennial star volume 14 section 38 page 594-595


Point being i love our leadership. And love scriptures and love the prophets that have passed on. But they were all men and there for could err.

And love my savior and he is perfect so he is the best source.


Have you prayed to know the truth of this from him??

[kennyhs]

[quote="Ezra"]Are the church leaders going out campaigning to take away all our agency? To law every man woman and child into health sobriety and morality?
No, they teach gospel principles and ways of retaining your agency..
No they are not.

We don't disagree on punishing people who have done wrong. Every person who dose harm to others under the influence should be punished by law for their trespass. They should make restitution for what they have done.

I wish no one would get high or drunk or smoke. Or tattoo themselfs up or eat unhealthy. I wish no one would sin. But I can't make them.

Kenny do you have kids? Did you spank them and punish them into a perfect life???


I have many children, there is usually a natural consequence for their choices
If it continues, yes, I take away certain activities until they can show credibility.
______________________________________________________

Or Did you encourage them into understanding how to learn grow and better themselfs?


I tell them its my way or the highway. Lol
________________________
If both what worked

Both worked, some were more stubborn than others, not caring about the consequences or the good
of the family.


Did your parenting work where they never sinned?

We know that all these things bring us experience,
_____________________________

I'm afraid some don't learn as fast as others.
_______________________
Do I trust Christ?
yes. I'm good friends with my savior.

Are the leaders of the church perfect.

No they are not. They are only men. Really good men. But just men.


They are men ordained by God to lead this work, they are no ordinary men.
__________________________________________________________________


And God allows them their agency to err. Just as he allows them their agency to do good.


Do you believe that their are men living on the moon as a few of our prophets said???





“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?... When you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 271


They are not perfect. They each have their own understandings. They do their best.

We must make sure what we understand is inline with gods. So we must have a close relationship with the spirit. We should always make sure what is said by the prophets is in line with the scriptures and inline with God.

They will not lead us astray, " Oh ye of little faith.

Honestly, I can't discuss this any further, can we try to solve world hunger or something?

The scriptures warn of those who preach all is well in Zion. Do they not???? Yet we have heard from the leadership all is well.

We have heard that the prophet can never lead the member astray and even if they asked us to do wrong we should. Ezra Taft benson.

Yet Joseph smith said the opposite.

We have heard men who had the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them, if they knew it was wrong. But such obedience as this is worse than folly to us. It is slavery in the extreme, and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turned from his folly. Others in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their presidents they should do it without asking any questions. When the elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with.

Joseph smith jr.
Millennial star volume 14 section 38 page 594-595


Point being i love our leadership. And love scriptures and love the prophets that have passed on. But they were all men and there for could err.

And love my savior and he is perfect so he is the best source.


Have you prayed to know the truth of this from him??[/quote

[Ezra]

It really depends on your definition of lead astray. If your thinking they cannot err or teach err. Your wrong they can.

If they couldn't then God would have to take away their agency.

If your saying that they lead and guide the church your right.

But how many apostles which we sustain as prophets. Have left the church or been excommunicated? They can err. They can teach it.

They are good men. But just men. You say they are not ordinary men. They are ordinary men. Good men. We all have the same ability to retun to the celestial kingdom. To become one with Christ. To become members of Christs heavenly church..

[JohnnyL]

Do you believe that their are men living on the moon as a few of our prophets said???

“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?... When you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 271

Ha ha, kennyhs stopped right where Jason stopped, too!

[kennyhs]

Do you believe that their are men living on the moon as a few of our prophets said???

“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?... When you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 271

Ha ha, kennyhs stopped right where Jason stopped, too!

Enlighten us with your knowledge Johnny... :))

[JohnnyL]

If you're going to take a very clear and deep line in the dirt, stick with it.

If you answer all those questions, you'll find out that line is nowhere near as clear as you think.

It's like hitting someone on the head with a stout stick, only to find it's fungused through and breaks at the first hit and does little damage, and there you are, holding it in your hand while ...

Prophets said it, it must be true, they were speaking for God.
Great.

So, that means a whole bunch of other things you have to believe in, too--things that have already been shown to be wrong, OR you have to stick with what they say, but I don't think most people thinking like that are going to have the outside-the-box thinking to even allow the possibility (like when
JFieldingS said man would never go to the moon).

If you're going to have it one way and only one way, you have to have it ALL one way.

You can't have "their words on Prohibition (and therefore every other illegal and dangerous substance we choose) were from God, but you don't believe it, so you're completely wrong and I'm completely right"--maybe so;

but then, that means you believe men in the moon; men in the sun; man never went to the moon; all Amerindians, from Canada to Chile, from New York to New Zealand, had Lehi as their principal ancestor; that all Islanders are descended from Hagoth; the Adam/ God theory; blacks were less valiant in the pre-existence; basketball baptisms; that LAWS passed by Congress against polygamy were wrong and not worth obeying (see how that contradicts lots of your and Jason's arguments?); that God does not glory and delight in the punishment of the sinner; that God allows freedom of choice, and consequences are pretty natural; that the heathen who break God's laws can/ will still be saved; that people are judged according to what they have/ could have; that God does all he can to inform, persuade, and help before he punishes, and then only when there is nothing else left for him to do; and much more.

Do you take it all, or not? You can't have it both ways. If you're going to eat your cake, you can't just eat the frosting and leave the bottom.

Now, I believe, for example, that as PROPHET JFieldingS said, man never went to the moon; do you? Let's start there.

[Ezra]

Oh ye of little faith.

The prophet would never lead us astray.

We have heard men who had the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them, if they knew it was wrong. But such obedience as this is worse than folly to us. It is slavery in the extreme, and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turned from his folly. Others in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their presidents they should do it without asking any questions. When the elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with.

Joseph smith jr.
Millennial star volume 14 section 38 page 594-595

Marion G. Romney (First Presidency)

I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting, I drove him home.… When we got to his home I got out of the car and went up on the porch with him. Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: "My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it." Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, "But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.” (Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78).

Which prophet lead us astray??

[kennyhs]

If you're going to take a very clear and deep line in the dirt, stick with it.

If you answer all those questions, you'll find out that line is nowhere near as clear as you think.

It's like hitting someone on the head with a stout stick, only to find it's fungused through and breaks at the first hit and does little damage, and there you are, holding it in your hand while ...

Prophets said it, it must be true, they were speaking for God.
Great.

So, that means a whole bunch of other things you have to believe in, too--things that have already been shown to be wrong, OR you have to stick with what they say, but I don't think most people thinking like that are going to have the outside-the-box thinking to even allow the possibility (like when
JFieldingS said man would never go to the moon).

If you're going to have it one way and only one way, you have to have it ALL one way.

You can't have "their words on Prohibition (and therefore every other illegal and dangerous substance we choose) were from God, but you don't believe it, so you're completely wrong and I'm completely right"--maybe so;

but then, that means you believe men in the moon; men in the sun; man never went to the moon; all Amerindians, from Canada to Chile, from New York to New Zealand, had Lehi as their principal ancestor; that all Islanders are descended from Hagoth; the Adam/ God theory; blacks were less valiant in the pre-existence; basketball baptisms; that LAWS passed by Congress against polygamy were wrong and not worth obeying (see how that contradicts lots of your and Jason's arguments?); that God does not glory and delight in the punishment of the sinner; that God allows freedom of choice, and consequences are pretty natural; that the heathen who break God's laws can/ will still be saved; that people are judged according to what they have/ could have; that God does all he can to inform, persuade, and help before he punishes, and then only when there is nothing else left for him to do; and much more.

Do you take it all, or not? You can't have it both ways. If you're going to eat your cake, you can't just eat the frosting and leave the bottom.

Now, I believe, for example, that as PROPHET JFieldingS said, man never went to the moon; do you? Let's start there.

There is only one way to know, and that way is through prayer, the Holy Ghost confirms truth. Prophets sometimes speak their opinions and other times they speak the will of the Lord. It's not difficult to discern with the Holy Spirit as your guide, unless you are looking for loopholes.

I can have my cake and eat it too, and cake that is not laced with marijuana.

I will put my faith where I want it, and that is the Lord's way, not in what the world says is right or wrong, because to me the worldly view is what's wrong is right and what's right is wrong.

We don't need to be counseled in all things, well, some of us that is. I will stand for what my knowledge is, with confirmation and discernment, while you keep digging your hole deeper looking for loopholes.

This topic Isn't about men on the moon, I could care less about that topic, we are talking about now. Stop the twists and turns.

[Jason]

If you're going to take a very clear and deep line in the dirt, stick with it.

If you answer all those questions, you'll find out that line is nowhere near as clear as you think.

It's like hitting someone on the head with a stout stick, only to find it's fungused through and breaks at the first hit and does little damage, and there you are, holding it in your hand while ...

Prophets said it, it must be true, they were speaking for God.
Great.

So, that means a whole bunch of other things you have to believe in, too--things that have already been shown to be wrong, OR you have to stick with what they say, but I don't think most people thinking like that are going to have the outside-the-box thinking to even allow the possibility (like when
JFieldingS said man would never go to the moon).

If you're going to have it one way and only one way, you have to have it ALL one way.

You can't have "their words on Prohibition (and therefore every other illegal and dangerous substance we choose) were from God, but you don't believe it, so you're completely wrong and I'm completely right"--maybe so;

but then, that means you believe men in the moon; men in the sun; man never went to the moon; all Amerindians, from Canada to Chile, from New York to New Zealand, had Lehi as their principal ancestor; that all Islanders are descended from Hagoth; the Adam/ God theory; blacks were less valiant in the pre-existence; basketball baptisms; that LAWS passed by Congress against polygamy were wrong and not worth obeying (see how that contradicts lots of your and Jason's arguments?); that God does not glory and delight in the punishment of the sinner; that God allows freedom of choice, and consequences are pretty natural; that the heathen who break God's laws can/ will still be saved; that people are judged according to what they have/ could have; that God does all he can to inform, persuade, and help before he punishes, and then only when there is nothing else left for him to do; and much more.

Do you take it all, or not? You can't have it both ways. If you're going to eat your cake, you can't just eat the frosting and leave the bottom.

Now, I believe, for example, that as PROPHET JFieldingS said, man never went to the moon; do you? Let's start there.

Of course that was addressed already...in the mouth of two or three witnesses rather than one man (obviously opinion). But you ignored that aspect...

[Army Of Truth]

ThIs argument would be more effective if applied to alcohol, tobacco does not interfere with driving, learning, nor create a high. Tobacco interferes with LIFE, because it KILLS half a million people a year! You keep insinuating that tobacco should not be banned just because it doesn't "interfere with driving"? Of course it does! You have to keep taking it in and out of your mouth while you drive, is that not interfering with your driving when you keep taking one hand off the wheel? /:) The many lives drunk driving has taken, the families it has destroyed, should be an example to society of the harm mind altering substances do to innocent people. Finally laws have made a difference in these people getting away with driving intoxicated. Actually, alcohol is NOT banned. (remember what happened with prohibition?) So my point is that you think if we ban alcohol it would resolve drunk driving. It will not. Now our enforcement agencies are scrambling to implement a way to field test for intoxication by MJ. How is that saving money? The "War on Drugs" does NOT save money. It is a total waste of our money!





Crime rates are at an all time low in U.S. yet prisons are expanding and overflowing with more people doing victim-less "crimes"? It's obvious that our corrupt government is making more and more laws to criminalize everyday behavior!



And yes, some people need their agency taken away from them, the only control over themselves is while incarcerated. Of course it is, for people who take away others life, liberty, or freedom. How is OWNING a plant taking away others life/liberty/freedom?

And yes, if I were a judge, I would punish anyone caught drivng under the influence very harshly, their agency stops there! I agree! I would do the same thing because they are endangering other peoples lives! I recall an accident where a five year old girl was killed, the man who hit the car she was in had 4 previous DUI'S.
Does anyone remember how many innocent people died before something was done? MADD,
( Mother's against drunk driving) helped with the crackdown. So why aren't YOU out there lobbying to ban alcohol?

There are plenty of bad choices to make in this life, that doesn't mean they need to be legal. Eating trans-fat is bad for you as well as sugar and soda. Should we ban these now too? Because states are already talking about banning Sodas, trans-fats, etc. What is next? Do we ban football because that is bad for your head and broken bones? What's next? Why aren't you lobbying for all Medicine to be legally obtained? FYI: Legalized drugs kill more than all illegal drugs combined! Aren't most derived from a plant? Ignorance is bliss, and legalizing MJ is ignorant. Banning a plant to allow SWAT teams to shoot/maime/kill you in the middle of the night is ignorant at best, fascist at worst! I hope you will be happy with the consequences, because ignorance only looks for benefits, it is not a wise steward.

I hope you're happy with our ever growing Police State criminalizing more and more behaviors every years, all because we look to government to govern our behavior rather than take our own responsibility. :ymsmug:

[kennyhs]

You keep insinuating that tobacco should not be banned just because it doesn't "interfere with driving"? Of course it does! You have to keep taking it in and out of your mouth while you drive, is that not interfering with your driving when you keep taking one hand off the wheel?

I think there's a loose nut behind the wheel, :)) Once again, you can do better than this... =))

I've even heard of people eating and driving....gasp

[Ezra]

Cell phone cause more deaths driving then alcohol and mj combined.

Cell phones should be made illegal.

[JohnnyL]

If you're going to take a very clear and deep line in the dirt, stick with it.

If you answer all those questions, you'll find out that line is nowhere near as clear as you think.

It's like hitting someone on the head with a stout stick, only to find it's fungused through and breaks at the first hit and does little damage, and there you are, holding it in your hand while ...

Prophets said it, it must be true, they were speaking for God.
Great.

So, that means a whole bunch of other things you have to believe in, too--things that have already been shown to be wrong, OR you have to stick with what they say, but I don't think most people thinking like that are going to have the outside-the-box thinking to even allow the possibility (like when
JFieldingS said man would never go to the moon).

If you're going to have it one way and only one way, you have to have it ALL one way.

You can't have "their words on Prohibition (and therefore every other illegal and dangerous substance we choose) were from God, but you don't believe it, so you're completely wrong and I'm completely right"--maybe so;

but then, that means you believe men in the moon; men in the sun; man never went to the moon; all Amerindians, from Canada to Chile, from New York to New Zealand, had Lehi as their principal ancestor; that all Islanders are descended from Hagoth; the Adam/ God theory; blacks were less valiant in the pre-existence; basketball baptisms; that LAWS passed by Congress against polygamy were wrong and not worth obeying (see how that contradicts lots of your and Jason's arguments?); that God does not glory and delight in the punishment of the sinner; that God allows freedom of choice, and consequences are pretty natural; that the heathen who break God's laws can/ will still be saved; that people are judged according to what they have/ could have; that God does all he can to inform, persuade, and help before he punishes, and then only when there is nothing else left for him to do; and much more.

Do you take it all, or not? You can't have it both ways. If you're going to eat your cake, you can't just eat the frosting and leave the bottom.

Now, I believe, for example, that as PROPHET JFieldingS said, man never went to the moon; do you? Let's start there.

There is only one way to know, and that way is through prayer, the Holy Ghost confirms truth. Prophets sometimes speak their opinions and other times they speak the will of the Lord. It's not difficult to discern with the Holy Spirit as your guide, unless you are looking for loopholes.

I can have my cake and eat it too, and cake that is not laced with marijuana.

I will put my faith where I want it, and that is the Lord's way, not in what the world says is right or wrong, because to me the worldly view is what's wrong is right and what's right is wrong.

We don't need to be counseled in all things, well, some of us that is. I will stand for what my knowledge is, with confirmation and discernment, while you keep digging your hole deeper looking for loopholes.

This topic Isn't about men on the moon, I could care less about that topic, we are talking about now. Stop the twists and turns.

And, you just twisted out of yet another one...

[JohnnyL]

If you're going to take a very clear and deep line in the dirt, stick with it.

If you answer all those questions, you'll find out that line is nowhere near as clear as you think.

It's like hitting someone on the head with a stout stick, only to find it's fungused through and breaks at the first hit and does little damage, and there you are, holding it in your hand while ...

Prophets said it, it must be true, they were speaking for God.
Great.

So, that means a whole bunch of other things you have to believe in, too--things that have already been shown to be wrong, OR you have to stick with what they say, but I don't think most people thinking like that are going to have the outside-the-box thinking to even allow the possibility (like when
JFieldingS said man would never go to the moon).

If you're going to have it one way and only one way, you have to have it ALL one way.

You can't have "their words on Prohibition (and therefore every other illegal and dangerous substance we choose) were from God, but you don't believe it, so you're completely wrong and I'm completely right"--maybe so;

but then, that means you believe:
men in the moon;
men in the sun;
man never went to the moon;
all Amerindians, from Canada to Chile, from New York to New Zealand, had Lehi as their principal ancestor;
that all Islanders are descended from Hagoth;
the Adam/ God theory;
blacks were less valiant in the pre-existence;
basketball baptisms;
that LAWS passed by Congress against polygamy were wrong and not worth obeying (see how that contradicts lots of your and Jason's arguments?);
that God does not glory and delight in the punishment of the sinner;
that God allows freedom of choice, and consequences are pretty natural;
that the heathen who break God's laws can/ will still be saved;
that people are judged according to what they have/ could have;
that God does all he can to inform, persuade, and help before he punishes, and then only when there is nothing else left for him to do;
and much more.

Do you take it all, or not? You can't have it both ways. If you're going to eat your cake, you can't just eat the frosting and leave the bottom.

Now, I believe, for example, that as PROPHET JFieldingS said, man never went to the moon; do you? Let's start there.

Of course that was addressed already...in the mouth of two or three witnesses rather than one man (obviously opinion). But you ignored that aspect...

So I'm assuming you agree with Ezra's quotes by PROPHET McKay and PROPHET Benson about agency, freedom, etc.?

So which is it, Jason? Man went to the moon, or not? He was speaking as a man, not a prophet? And every one of the (multiple) prophets who spoke on those things, well, they were speaking as men, too? But when it comes to Prohibition, they weren't speaking as men, but surely speaking as prophets? Isn't that cool how that works out, how convenient for our beliefs? :ymparty:

Are you ever going to answer those questions? Or is it already clear enough to everyone what predicament you're in?

(And you know lots of those questions have been answered by multiple prophets, so let's stop that argument before it even starts.)

Oh, kennyhs has some help for you:
"There is only one way to know, and that way is through prayer, the Holy Ghost confirms truth. Prophets sometimes speak their opinions and other times they speak the will of the Lord. It's not difficult to discern with the Holy Spirit as your guide, unless you are looking for loopholes."

[kennyhs]

If you're going to take a very clear and deep line in the dirt, stick with it.

If you answer all those questions, you'll find out that line is nowhere near as clear as you think.

It's like hitting someone on the head with a stout stick, only to find it's fungused through and breaks at the first hit and does little damage, and there you are, holding it in your hand while ...

Prophets said it, it must be true, they were speaking for God.
Great.

So, that means a whole bunch of other things you have to believe in, too--things that have already been shown to be wrong, OR you have to stick with what they say, but I don't think most people thinking like that are going to have the outside-the-box thinking to even allow the possibility (like when
JFieldingS said man would never go to the moon).

If you're going to have it one way and only one way, you have to have it ALL one way.

You can't have "their words on Prohibition (and therefore every other illegal and dangerous substance we choose) were from God, but you don't believe it, so you're completely wrong and I'm completely right"--maybe so;

but then, that means you believe:
men in the moon;
men in the sun;
man never went to the moon;
all Amerindians, from Canada to Chile, from New York to New Zealand, had Lehi as their principal ancestor;
that all Islanders are descended from Hagoth;
the Adam/ God theory;
blacks were less valiant in the pre-existence;
basketball baptisms;
that LAWS passed by Congress against polygamy were wrong and not worth obeying (see how that contradicts lots of your and Jason's arguments?);
that God does not glory and delight in the punishment of the sinner;
that God allows freedom of choice, and consequences are pretty natural;
that the heathen who break God's laws can/ will still be saved;
that people are judged according to what they have/ could have;
that God does all he can to inform, persuade, and help before he punishes, and then only when there is nothing else left for him to do;
and much more.

Do you take it all, or not? You can't have it both ways. If you're going to eat your cake, you can't just eat the frosting and leave the bottom.

Now, I believe, for example, that as PROPHET JFieldingS said, man never went to the moon; do you? Let's start there.

Of course that was addressed already...in the mouth of two or three witnesses rather than one man (obviously opinion). But you ignored that aspect...

So I'm assuming you agree with Ezra's quotes by PROPHET McKay and PROPHET Benson about agency, freedom, etc.?

So which is it, Jason? Man went to the moon, or not? He was speaking as a man, not a prophet? And every one of the (multiple) prophets who spoke on those things, well, they were speaking as men, too? But when it comes to Prohibition, they weren't speaking as men, but surely speaking as prophets? Isn't that cool how that works out, how convenient for our beliefs? :ymparty:

Are you ever going to answer those questions? Or is it already clear enough to everyone what predicament you're in?

(And you know lots of those questions have been answered by multiple prophets, so let's stop that argument before it even starts.)

Oh, kennyhs has some help for you:
"There is only one way to know, and that way is through prayer, the Holy Ghost confirms truth. Prophets sometimes speak their opinions and other times they speak the will of the Lord. It's not difficult to discern with the Holy Spirit as your guide, unless you are looking for loopholes."

Men on the moon, short documentary;

https://youtu.be/sh6vqhOUX8Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Army Of Truth]

10 FACTS ABOUT AMERICA’S WAR ON DRUGS THAT WILL SHOCK YOU

http://matadornetwork.com/change/10-fac ... ill-shock/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1. The War on Drugs costs the US billions of dollars a year.

Some estimates say that in the US (beyond just the federal government), we spend over $51 billion total on the Drug War. We’ve spent over a trillion dollars since the beginning of the War on Drugs, during Richard Nixon’s presidency.

2. The War on Drugs forces police to focus on nonviolent drug offenders, rather than on violent criminals.

3. 82% of all drug arrests are for possession only, according to the group Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP).

4. Drug arrests have significantly contributed to our growing, unsustainable incarceration rates.

1.55 million Americans were arrested in 2012 alone on nonviolent drug charges.

5. Since it’s easy to make possession arrests, the War on Drugs has led to shoddy police work.

6. The War on Drugs is racially biased.

7. Studies have found that treatment, not enforcement, is the best way to decrease drug abuse.

Treatment of drug abusers would also save us billions of dollars thanks to lower incarceration rates, lower recidivism, and increased employment among addicts. Former Boston Prosecutor John Amabile explains how drug policy should be treated as a health issue instead of a criminal issue: (See link to view video)

8. If we legalized and then taxed illegal drugs at the same level as alcohol and tobacco, we could make $46.7 billion a year in tax revenues.
Colorado’s experiment with pot legalization is already earning them millions

9. Ending the Drug War would go a long way towards stemming the AIDS epidemic.

10. Our Drug War is also fueling Drug Wars in a number of other countries — from Colombia to Afghanistan to Mexico.

Mexico’s Drug War alone has resulted in over 70,000 deaths since 2006. This is more than ten times the amount of Americans that have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://matadornetwork.com/change/10-fac ... ill-shock/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jason]

If you're going to take a very clear and deep line in the dirt, stick with it.

If you answer all those questions, you'll find out that line is nowhere near as clear as you think.

It's like hitting someone on the head with a stout stick, only to find it's fungused through and breaks at the first hit and does little damage, and there you are, holding it in your hand while ...

Prophets said it, it must be true, they were speaking for God.
Great.

So, that means a whole bunch of other things you have to believe in, too--things that have already been shown to be wrong, OR you have to stick with what they say, but I don't think most people thinking like that are going to have the outside-the-box thinking to even allow the possibility (like when
JFieldingS said man would never go to the moon).

If you're going to have it one way and only one way, you have to have it ALL one way.

You can't have "their words on Prohibition (and therefore every other illegal and dangerous substance we choose) were from God, but you don't believe it, so you're completely wrong and I'm completely right"--maybe so;

but then, that means you believe:
men in the moon;
men in the sun;
man never went to the moon;
all Amerindians, from Canada to Chile, from New York to New Zealand, had Lehi as their principal ancestor;
that all Islanders are descended from Hagoth;
the Adam/ God theory;
blacks were less valiant in the pre-existence;
basketball baptisms;
that LAWS passed by Congress against polygamy were wrong and not worth obeying (see how that contradicts lots of your and Jason's arguments?);
that God does not glory and delight in the punishment of the sinner;
that God allows freedom of choice, and consequences are pretty natural;
that the heathen who break God's laws can/ will still be saved;
that people are judged according to what they have/ could have;
that God does all he can to inform, persuade, and help before he punishes, and then only when there is nothing else left for him to do;
and much more.

Do you take it all, or not? You can't have it both ways. If you're going to eat your cake, you can't just eat the frosting and leave the bottom.

Now, I believe, for example, that as PROPHET JFieldingS said, man never went to the moon; do you? Let's start there.

Of course that was addressed already...in the mouth of two or three witnesses rather than one man (obviously opinion). But you ignored that aspect...

So I'm assuming you agree with Ezra's quotes by PROPHET McKay and PROPHET Benson about agency, freedom, etc.?

So which is it, Jason? Man went to the moon, or not? He was speaking as a man, not a prophet? And every one of the (multiple) prophets who spoke on those things, well, they were speaking as men, too? But when it comes to Prohibition, they weren't speaking as men, but surely speaking as prophets? Isn't that cool how that works out, how convenient for our beliefs? :ymparty:

Are you ever going to answer those questions? Or is it already clear enough to everyone what predicament you're in?

(And you know lots of those questions have been answered by multiple prophets, so let's stop that argument before it even starts.)

Oh, kennyhs has some help for you:
"There is only one way to know, and that way is through prayer, the Holy Ghost confirms truth. Prophets sometimes speak their opinions and other times they speak the will of the Lord. It's not difficult to discern with the Holy Spirit as your guide, unless you are looking for loopholes."

Multiple prophets testified that man would never go to the moon? Subsequent prophets testified that Joseph Fielding Smith was speaking for God when he made that claim?

I've yet to see you point out the claims by multiple prophets right down to the present time on the items you brought up like man getting to the moon....unlike Prohibition which I have done. Not to mention the stance on the legality of same sex marriage, gambling, and other moral/physical issues similar to Prohibition. And prophets like David O. McKay and Ezra T. Benson also took similar stances on those issues like all the other prophets before and after them. Not to mention the rest of church leadership...and collective statements to the people like the Proclamation on the Family...as well as items like Proposition 8.

But by all means keep twisting...