Boy Scouts and LDS to split?

[Sunain]

We do not need the Boy Scouts of America in our Churches any more. We need to stand for something, or we will be just another Sunday only religion. The fact that we have capitulated over same sex marriage is already shameful in my opinion. Are we losing our message, the gospel of Christ, in order to look modern? to be accepted by our neighbors and communities? Is the Church beginning to fall?

If the church doesn't break all ties with the Boy Scouts, then yes I would completely agree with you. Lately it does seem like the church and its leaders are capitulating over the whole Gay issue. Yes, we want to be friendly with them though, but as members of the church it is our duty to call these people to repentance and stand as an example to all the world. Members of the church are different than people of the world because we have the gospel as part of our lives and we follow its precepts.

It's almost like the church is afraid to standup for the doctrine of the church. There really shouldn't have been any thinking period over this issue. We knew the vote was coming so the leaders of the church should have already had our response ready, the press releases good to go and approved by the first presidency for the day the vote took place. Be Prepared! This current time period while the church decides what its going to do makes it look like the church is mulling over the issue instead of standing up for what we believe in. Lately it seems like the church is more fearing of man and their laws rather than fearing God and His laws.

[zionminded]

If I was called to be a scout master at this time, Id likely turn it down, because I wouldn't want to align myself with that energy where a committee at the BSA, would "exclude" the church (who has been a member of that board for a LONG time), just to pass something political. I don't care if the BSA does it, but I don't have to align myself with it.

[gkearney]

I think it is time here to put a few things in order in all of this:

1. "morally straight" was added to Baden-Powell's original scout oath by Daniel Carter Beard in 1910. Prior to that the original 1908 oath was as follows:

On my honour I promise that---
I will do my duty to God and the King.
I will do my best to help others, whatever it costs me.
I know the scout law, and will obey it.

This was later modified into a standard scout oath which is used almost everywhere in the word as specified by the World Organization of the Scout Movements the governing body of scouts and guides world wide they suggest the following form, in English but permit some variations for cultural considerations, for example substituting the Arabic word for God, Allah for the English word God in Islamic nations. It reads:

On my honour I promise that I will do my best—
To do my duty to God and the King (or to God and my Country)
To help other people at all times and
To obey the Scout Law.

Other than scouting in the Philippines which grew out of the American scouting program the words "morally straight" are not to be found. In the Philippines the term is "morally upright". What is clear however is that neither Beard nor the scouts ever intended that "morally straight" make reference to sexuality of any stripe. The use of the word straight to suggest a particular sexual orientation is an invention of recent English usage and was unknown in Beards time or for that matter even more than 20 years ago.

Even today the scouts set out "morally straight" as being: "To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance."

It has been my experience in international and BSA scouting that outside of the LDS Church scouting program few, if any scouting programs have attached sexual purity to the term.

2. All of this excitement as to gay scout masters seems to me to be a bit misplaced. I personally would feel much better about a gay scout leader who was open about it, properly trained and who followed the BSA rules on youth protection than say an untrained leader who is keeping his sexual preferences hidden and who does not follow the policies of the BSA in keeping youth safe.

I would suggest that it is not the open, admitted homosexual that is the problem here but rather it is the pedophile who is keeping his issues secret so as to gain access to young people that is the greater concern.

I have seen way too many LDS scout troops who churn the leaders over short time frames, who do not follow youth protection policies of the BSA. Who do not give the required training in youth protection to either the leaders and perhaps more importantly, to the youth and who feel somehow that a calling from the Bishop is all the training require to be a scout leader. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I would also point out that our children and youth spend a great deal more time with teachers, both in school and in church then they ever do with scout leaders yet we seem to be willing to look the other way about these adults, who may or may not be gay, while expending considerable concern over scout leaders, not our own LDS scout leaders, but the leaders of other troops I might add. If our youth are in such danger from gay scout leaders then what about gay teachers and others with whom they come in contact with on a much more regular basis?

I have never heard of a school district that had the two deep leadership rules that the BSA and other scouting organizations have. I have never heard of a school district requiring both adults and students to take youth protection classes as the BSA rule state should be done. I haven't heard of our Sunday school and young men's and women's teachers being so required nor for that matter members of Bishoprics.

So while we expend our outrage at the scouts we look the other way at a whole host of adults who our children come into contact with. While the scouts expend considerable effort to check and educate both adults and youth we do very little of such in other setting yet it is the scouts who get dumped on here. I would suggest we look to remove the beam in our own eye before concerning ourselves with the moot we perceive in the eye of the scouts.

(Let me add here that in Australia such callings can not be lawfully performed without a "Working with Children Card" which requires a state and federal police background check.)

[rewcox]

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — Days after the Boy Scouts of America lifted a blanket ban on gay leaders, a Utah group that pressed for the legalization of gay marriage in the state announced Tuesday it will sponsor a Boy Scout troop.

Mark Lawrence with the group Restore Our Humanity said getting the troop approved and running might be an uphill battle in conservative Utah, where most troops are sponsored by the Mormon church. But he noted the new troop could be a model for the future.

"I think it's important for us to do this now," Lawrence said at a news conference. He added welcoming gay leaders could create new interest in the organization.

Lawrence said he has heard from several potential volunteers, including doctors, police officers and a rabbi.

Organizers plan to complete an application in the coming weeks and are hoping to have a troop up and running by fall. The Boy Scouts' Great Salt Lake Council said in a statement that it appreciates the group's interest, and the group will have to submit its application to the national office for approval.

While the lifting of the ban on July 27 prompted some gay Eagle Scouts around the country to rejoin the movement, the reaction was different at the Utah-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

View galleryMark Lawrence, with the group Restore Our Humanity, …
Mark Lawrence, with the group Restore Our Humanity, speaks during a news conference Tuesday, Aug. 4, …
The nation's largest sponsor of Boy Scout units said it was deeply troubled by the decision, which it described as inconsistent with the church's teachings and the Boy Scouts' traditional values. The policy change allows church-sponsored Scout units to maintain the exclusion for religious reasons.

The Mormon church, which serves more than 427,000 boys in nearly 38,000 Scout units, is considering breaking away to form its own worldwide scouting organization. Officials have said they will meet later this month to discuss their next steps.

Several other denominations that collectively sponsor close to half of all Scout units also have been apprehensive about ending the ban on gay adults, including the Roman Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention.

But other churches are looking forward to the change, said the Rev. Curtis Price with the First Baptist Church of Salt Lake City.

"I'm not going to sponsor an organization that's going to exclude any of our people based on sexual orientation," he said.

Being gay doesn't take away the ability to be a good mentor or teacher for young people, Price said. The decision to allow gay leaders removes a strain on the relationship with the Boy Scouts for congregations like his, he added.

Scouting is an important place for boys to learn outdoor skills, teamwork and leadership, Utah activist Charles Frost said. "I learned how to be a leader largely due to scouting," Frost said.

Lawrence said the new Salt Lake City-based troop would be welcoming to a wide range of people, especially those from minority groups.

The Boy Scouts decided to allow openly gay youth in 2013, but not gay adults or leaders. That changed when the organization's National Executive Board voted to end the blanket ban, though leaders pledged to defend the right of any church-sponsored units to continue excluding gays as adult volunteers.

Advocate Peter Brownstein, who has worked for three years to establish a Scout troop that welcomes gay leaders, said he hopes the Mormon church stays with the Boy Scouts.

"It would truly be a shame for them to head off in a different direction," he said.

Restore Our Humanity was started to mount a challenge to Utah's ban on same-sex marriage, which was overturned in a surprise 2013 court ruling.

[gkearney]

So here is a question to consider. What is the response of church members and leaders going to be towards families that continue in scouting should the church sever its ties to the BSA?

[rewcox]

So here is a question to consider. What is the response of church members and leaders going to be towards families that continue in scouting should the church sever its ties to the BSA?

That is a good question. I expect it to be left up to the families.

[Finally]

The vast majority of LDS families only do scouts because they have to. If the Church breaks away (which I do not believe it will) then the average LDS family will not go the extra mile, meetings and fees to continue activity in the Scouts.

That said, Scouting is a cop-out for the Church and members. It's the easiest and garners the most worldly approval. That ain't changing.

[gkearney]

So here is a question to consider. What is the response of church members and leaders going to be towards families that continue in scouting should the church sever its ties to the BSA?

That is a good question. I expect it to be left up to the families.

Well of course it will be left up to families ultimately but that is not to say that families that choose to continue in scouting might not face "issues" from the ward and its leaders.

[rewcox]

So here is a question to consider. What is the response of church members and leaders going to be towards families that continue in scouting should the church sever its ties to the BSA?

That is a good question. I expect it to be left up to the families.

Well of course it will be left up to families ultimately but that is not to say that families that choose to continue in scouting might not face "issues" from the ward and its leaders.

Maybe in Utah. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

[EmmaLee]

So here is a question to consider. What is the response of church members and leaders going to be towards families that continue in scouting should the church sever its ties to the BSA?

I don't think it will be any different than the response given to one of our previous Primary presidents who volunteered on a regular basis for Planned Parenthood; or to 1/2 our ward leadership who vocally lobbied for Obama in both elections; or to the many in our ward who have publicly shown support for SSM; or to the opposite-sex couple currently living in adultery (she's married to another man), but who come to church every Sunday, acting for all the world like they're not doing anything wrong. Basically, in our ward anyway, nobody cares what anybody does - it's very 'live and let live'. But I'm not in the MorCor, so I can't speak for that area.

[gkearney]

One thing I will predict, if the church leaves scouting it will not be very long at all before the BSA follows the patten of nearly every other national scouting body world wide and becomes coed.

This would be the only way to replace the numbers of youth lost from the church and without the LDS church at the table to object nothing would be in the way to stop it.

If it follows the trend seen in Canada and Australia the admitting girls would more than make up for the 16% of US scouts who are LDS.

[skmo]

BSA SCOUT OATH: "On my honor, I will do my best, to do my duty to God and my country, to obey the scout law, to help other people at all times, to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight."

Will BSA have to change the scout oath? Can you be homosexual and be "morally straight"?

Yes, depending on what your morals are. I have gay friends I consider to be very moral according to their own beliefs. Our Articles of Faith say we recognize others' freedom to have their own beliefs, and since my friends don't condemn me for failing to uphold their commandments, I don't condemn them for not upholding those I believe come from God.

The BSA has the right to decide if homosexuality fits within their boundaries of moral. If they decide it does (which the freakin' perverts have done) we should exercise our right to disassociate our church from them.

[rewcox]

One thing I will predict, if the church leaves scouting it will not be very long at all before the BSA follows the patten of nearly every other national scouting body world wide and becomes coed.

This would be the only way to replace the numbers of youth lost from the church and without the LDS church at the table to object nothing would be in the way to stop it.

If it follows the trend seen in Canada and Australia the admitting girls would more than make up for the 16% of US scouts who are LDS.

You are probably right. Maybe that is why Gates went so strong with the change.

[skmo]

The position of the LDS Church to remain associated with the BSA after the latter's announcement to admit homosexuality in its members is the first and only time I have ever come out and publically stated I believe the prophet to be in error. I stand by my previous statements, and I believe President Monson to be wrong to have allowed the church to remain sponsors of the BSA. I hope this new situation will force the church leaders to re-evaluate our position and separate our church from the BSA.

[Finally]

President Monson...is also the recipient of the Boy Scouts of America’s Silver Beaver Award (1971), its prestigious Silver Buffalo Award (1978), the Bronze Wolf (1993; international Scouting’s highest award), and the Silver Fox Award from Scouts Canada (2011). --https://www.lds.org/church/leader/thoma ... n?lang=eng

He just ain't gonna stick a fork in it.

[pjbrownie]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... uture.html

If the church pulls out of Boy Scouts, it will be catastrophic for the Utah BSA councils.

Seems to me the BSA is less intent on preserving scouting in Utah and more intent on committing organizational suicide.

And, honestly, that's fine by me. They were good in their day, but if their desire is to change with the times/fad/PC culture, then it's no longer a good fit for members of the church or our youth.

Certainly it would be suicide in Utah, and I'm sure the professional scouters in Utah understand. They probably thought with the 100 year relationship, the church would go along with it.

I don't see how the church can, I suspect 90% of active members would have a serious problem continuing support of BSA.

They'll murmer and complain and not follow the prophet, but then go back on the boards and say how the Prophet can never lead the Church astray.

[pjbrownie]

So you all know,

I appears that the BSA is in deep talks with the LDS Church right now.
They look to be developing a worldwide answer for the LDS Church to be administered by the BSA.
It also appears that the Church helped to craft the new language for the BSA Adult Leadership standards.

Go ahead . . . scratch your heads.

Of course this information comes from insiders at the National office, for what it's worth.

[zionminded]

But if you get a call to serve in the boy scouts, can you honestly support that organization?

I'm sure they are in talks.. but why did they refuse to invite the church to the board meeting where they voted the way they did. Makes you wonder.

[pjbrownie]

I can tell you that the local councils pressured the national organization to move it up to July because they didn't want it to hurt their fall fundraising. I don't think it was a snub, I think it was a bad PR move to placate the local councils and not listen to the customer.

[mattman]

We were told last Sunday from a High Councilman that the COR's (don't remember what it stood for) decided to support "Friends of Scouting" this fall, and to not be rude to those who are asked to solicit when they come around asking for donations. I stopped donating 2 years ago when they said gay youth could be involved--this latest decision ensures that I will not ever donate again. Will decreased donations by church members sway those in leadership positions to nix the association?

[Col. Flagg]

We were told last Sunday from a High Councilman that the COR's (don't remember what it stood for) decided to support "Friends of Scouting" this fall, and to not be rude to those who are asked to solicit when they come around asking for donations. I stopped donating 2 years ago when they said gay youth could be involved--this latest decision ensures that I will not ever donate again. Will decreased donations by church members sway those in leadership positions to nix the association?

As much as I hate to say it, we will never be donating to it again either - not just because of the gay boy and leader decisions, but also because there is a serious misuse and abuse of funds at the top of the organization with Williams at a cool million a year in salary over the years and now Gates, while their woefully compensated employees and volunteers are expected to go door to door begging for money for the boys' camps and such. Disgusting.

[pjbrownie]

Guys, I hate to tell you but your TITHING goes to pay for Scouting. Every LDS boy has membership fees that are paid by Salt Lake to the National office. So maybe you should stop paying tithing?? It goes the the National office where these decisions are being made on these issues.

Your ward donation dollars go to your local council, which is staffed and supported by LDS Scouters who are more loyal to the Church than they are to the BSA. The only thing you hurt is your local council's ability to offer camps for your youth.

Maybe you should demand budget transparency like the D&C has asked for.

[pjbrownie]

We were told last Sunday from a High Councilman that the COR's (don't remember what it stood for) decided to support "Friends of Scouting" this fall, and to not be rude to those who are asked to solicit when they come around asking for donations. I stopped donating 2 years ago when they said gay youth could be involved--this latest decision ensures that I will not ever donate again. Will decreased donations by church members sway those in leadership positions to nix the association?

The General Authorities told the Utah councils to fun the FOS drive this fall . . . full speed ahead. That may give an indication of where this is heading.

[EmmaLee]

It also appears that the Church helped to craft the new language for the BSA Adult Leadership standards.

pj, just wanting to clarify. Are you saying here ^^ that the Church helped write the new BSA "law" that allows homosexual leaders?

[idahommie]

The General Authorities told the Utah councils to fun the FOS drive this fall . . . full speed ahead. That may give an indication of where this is heading.

Source, or this is just hearsay.......