Boy Scouts and LDS to split?

[Sunain]

So the lawsuits being. While this is from an incident years ago, I figure will see more soon over various reasons. Being so intertwined with another business/institution like the way the church and the BSA are is not a good thing anymore. Once upon a time, the Boy Scouts were a morale and honorable organization, not anymore as they've become part of the whole problem that is corporate America. I said earlier in this thread that it was a bad idea for the church not to split, I didn't think it would be this fast till we started seeing the repercussions.

http://www.sltrib.com/home/2897613-155/ ... it-against" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://fox13now.com/2015/08/31/idaho-su ... ds-church/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... uit-to-mo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Kent]

What's most annoying about this whole gay situation is most those people in First Presidency and Council of the 12 also signed their name on the Family Proclamation . . .

Supporting an organization affiliated with the youth program of the church that allows gays in leadership positions over young people is not morally right. Scout leaders may not be directly teaching the youth that being gay is 'ok' but actions often speak louder than words and young boys that are still maturing can be influenced by seeing that the church thinks this is an acceptable lifestyle because they are accepting of it. Either we are completely against homosexuality and consider it a sin as the Family Proclamation states or we're hypocrites.

Interesting comment. What has changed and why.

[Sunain]

Mooresville church ousts Boy Scouts, says allowing transgender boys embraces sin

By Mark Price
April 5, 2017 3:25 PM

A January decision by the Boy Scouts of America to allow transgender boys into their ranks has cost one Mooresville troop its home base with a two-century-old church north of Charlotte.

Troop 169 has been told it is no longer welcome at Coddle Creek Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church. Ditto for Cub Scout Pack 169. Both the troop and the pack are part of the Piedmont Council of Boy Scouts based in Gastonia.

Pastor Andrew Shoger of Coddle Creek Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church sent the Observer a statement Wednesday explaining the decision and declining to make any further comment. The church is located about 28 miles north of Charlotte.

“For more than 10 years, Coddle Creek Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church has hosted and chartered Boy Scout and Cub Scout groups. However, due to decisions by the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) regarding matters of homosexuality and gender identity, the … church has determined that our church can no longer continue as partners … of BSA,” Shoger said in the statement.

“Quite simply, we cannot partner with an organization that embraces what God’s Word clearly labels as sin.”

Shoger said the church would fulfill its current charter agreement, allowing the troop time to find a new home elsewhere in the community. The church did not say how long the agreement would be extended.

“We recognize that the ones affected most directly by this announcement are the boys, young men and leaders, who love scouting and had no role in the decisions made by the BSA,” said Shoger.

Representatives of Troop 169 and the Piedmont Council could not be reached for comment Wednesday afternoon. One source told the Observer that the troop’s leaders were informed of the church’s decision in the past three days.

The Boy Scouts of America announced in late January that the organization would begin admitting transgender boys, drawing criticism from conservatives and faith groups opposed to equal rights for gay, lesbian or transgender people.

Among the biggest critics is the North Carolina Values Coalition, which has lobbied for churches to abandon their Boy Scout troops for “faith friendly alternatives,” such as Trail Life USA.

To date, no scout troops in Mecklenburg County have lost their homes due to the decision to admit transgender youth, said officials with the Mecklenburg County Council.

However, it has happened elsewhere in the state. Christian Daily reported in February that a mega church in Cumberland County has decided to sever ties with Boy Scout Troop 957 over the issue.

Why does it take a Reformed Presbyterian Church Pastor to say what The Church of Jesus Christ should have said in their statement a year ago?! I commend that pastor for his honesty and integrity by not trying to fall in line with the world.

[Sunain]

Lawsuit alleges fraud by Boy Scouts, LDS church in abuse cases

Melissa Luck Posted: May 01, 2017 09:36 AM PDT - Updated: May 01, 2017 10:25 AM PDT

LEWISTON, Idaho - Five men will file a lawsuit today, suing the Boy Scouts of America and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The men allege the institutions committed fraud by not informing families and scouts that there could be child molesters involved in the scouting program.

The plaintiffs in the case, three of whom are not named, say they were abused by their scout leaders in the Boise and Lewiston areas.

One of the scout leaders, Lawrence Libey, was convicted of sex abuse in 1998. Now deceased, the suit alleges he was a Boy Scout leader in Lewiston in the 1960's and 1970's.

"We need the public's help," said attorney Ashley Vaughn, who is representing one of the plaintiffs. "We have information done by the Scouts about Libey here in Lewiston in the late 1960's. We are looking for any witnesses who might have any information."

Vaughn said the fraud claims are based on "the coverup by Boy Scouts of a known danger in Scouting."

"For decades, BSA misled families about the safety of Scouting by covering up the known dangers of sexual molesters targeting Scouting to access victims," said Vaughn. "BSA knew from the thousands of 'perversion files' it kept on Scout volunteers accused of sexual misconduct with children that Scouts were at risk, but intentionally chose to keep this information hidden from parents, volunteers, and sponsoring organizations."

The suit alleges that most of the troops affected were sponsored by the LDS church.

The case was filed Monday in Idaho U.S. District Court.

One of the plaintiffs, identified in court as John Doe XX, said he was abused by Libey in the early 1970s. He said he came forward in the hopes of gaining justice for himself and others affected by abuse.

"If we stand together, this case will help right the wrong that was done to us when we were children in Boy Scouts," he said.

Attorney Vaughn believes that there are others who have information about these cases or had been witnesses to the abuse.

"We want these witnesses or other survivors of abuse by Scout leaders to know that, if they come forward, they will be listened to and treated with respect," she said.

The church needs to sever its ties with the Boy Scouts more than ever. Incidents like this will just keep increasing. A Young Men's program that is setup to prevent sexual misconduct by having 2 or more leaders with temple recommends at all times would be a good start. It wouldn't completely stop the issue but it would help lower incidents and opportunities for incidents to occur. With transgendered and gays now formally allowed in scouting, it's just opening a whole new can of worms for the church.

[pjbrownie]

You think it will end if the Church drops the BSA???? The BSA does background checks. Temple recommends do squat to stop child predators. And it doesn't lower incidents. I know from personal experience that background checks are what helps.

Realize that this stuff is decades old and there is no statue of limitations. This is about lawyers who ran roughshod through the Catholic Church, cleaned them out, and are not moving on to the Boy Scouts and the LDS Church. Severing ties will not stop these lawsuits against the Church.

[gkearney]

Further nothing is preventing the church from implementing the two leaders with temple recommends now. Indeed the BSA already requires two deep leadership but it is often local church leaders who ignore such rules.

[Sunain]

You think it will end if the Church drops the BSA???? The BSA does background checks. Temple recommends do squat to stop child predators. And it doesn't lower incidents. I know from personal experience that background checks are what helps.

Realize that this stuff is decades old and there is no statue of limitations. This is about lawyers who ran roughshod through the Catholic Church, cleaned them out, and are not moving on to the Boy Scouts and the LDS Church. Severing ties will not stop these lawsuits against the Church.

Further nothing is preventing the church from implementing the two leaders with temple recommends now. Indeed the BSA already requires two deep leadership but it is often local church leaders who ignore such rules.

Oh I agree that issues like this will continue regardless but severing ties to another organization that can implicate the church because of their interoperability would be a start. Was just thinking of ways that need to be explored going forward. Background check, plus temple recommend, plus multiple leaders at all times, what else? I look back at my scouting years, there were plenty of times that it was just one leader and that was a LDS troop.

I'm just awaiting another lawsuit against the church because of the gay and transgendered issue which will be a compounding issue as it conflicts with church doctrine. It's inevitable unfortunately.

[braingrunt]

Further nothing is preventing the church from implementing the two leaders with temple recommends now. Indeed the BSA already requires two deep leadership but it is often local church leaders who ignore such rules.

Nothing except lack of worthy/interested/able people. This affects all aspects of staffing a ward properly, at least where we live and hereabouts. I tried to participate as a scout leader and honestly, I sucked. I showed up, I tried, but I never was a boy scout even though I was. I don't even know how a BSA leaders mind works. Mine sure didn't.

[pjbrownie]

You think it will end if the Church drops the BSA???? The BSA does background checks. Temple recommends do squat to stop child predators. And it doesn't lower incidents. I know from personal experience that background checks are what helps.

Realize that this stuff is decades old and there is no statue of limitations. This is about lawyers who ran roughshod through the Catholic Church, cleaned them out, and are not moving on to the Boy Scouts and the LDS Church. Severing ties will not stop these lawsuits against the Church.

Further nothing is preventing the church from implementing the two leaders with temple recommends now. Indeed the BSA already requires two deep leadership but it is often local church leaders who ignore such rules.

Oh I agree that issues like this will continue regardless but severing ties to another organization that can implicate the church because of their interoperability would be a start. Was just thinking of ways that need to be explored going forward. Background check, plus temple recommend, plus multiple leaders at all times, what else? I look back at my scouting years, there were plenty of times that it was just one leader and that was a LDS troop.

I'm just awaiting another lawsuit against the church because of the gay and transgendered issue which will be a compounding issue as it conflicts with church doctrine. It's inevitable unfortunately.

That's true, but it only delays the inevitable. Eventually, the Church will have to deal with these LGBT issues with or without the BSA. One problem is that they just discovered that while sex is determined at birth during the process of fertilization, gender is not (being the different hormone development issues that happen to a fetus in the womb). They say 1 out of every 10,000 kids has this issue. It's a prenatal disease and it affects how they see their gender when they are born. It's much easier to prove than being gay, for example. That's not to say that there isn't a spiritual gender that comes into a body (I believe this), but when does the spirit inhabit the body? Many believe it's at the quickening (the scriptures indicate that). The prenatal development of gender happens prior to the quickening. Does a spirit inhabit a body determined on it's hormonal gender or it's genetalia? If there is any doctrine surrounding transgendered kids, I'm not aware of any. I think it's only in handbook 1. That can be changed through a committee vote, as we've seen in the past.

[Serragon]

One problem is that they just discovered that while sex is determined at birth during the process of fertilization, gender is not (being the different hormone development issues that happen to a fetus in the womb). They say 1 out of every 10,000 kids has this issue. It's a prenatal disease and it affects how they see their gender when they are born. It's much easier to prove than being gay, for example.

There is no scientific evidence of people being born gay or transgendered.

All studies are either A) Social science studies which are not scientific or B) unable to be reproduced or show any evidence that is statistically significant.

There may be issues with the amount of hormones received in the womb for a few people. These would be known as effeminite males or masculine females. But this has nothing to do with gender. It is a real medical condition being used by the trans-gender crowd for political purposes.

There is no scientifically discernable difference between male and female brains. This is a lie created to prop up the gender religion. No scientist can take a disembodied brain and determine the sex reliably.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11 ... tudy-finds

[Serragon]

The LGBTQ cultists would have you believe that gender is a social construct while homosexuality is determined biologically. AKA I was born that way.

The truth, reinforced by science, is that gender is biological and homosexuality is a social construct.

[pjbrownie]

So my issue is with your third paragraph. That's what I'm talking about. What they are "known" as is up for debate and is part of the semantics of the argument. There are two different process, once determined at insemination, the other through development. The problem with your article is that it's trying to argue against a gender binary, which works on one level (TG choice issues) but doesn't work on the political underpinnings of the homosexual arguments (born gay) or with gender-based differences in social constructs. It's why I prefer to stay away from politically-based "sciencism" articles and stick with the raw data, which this article downplays, that there ARE differences in the way males and females think. That's developmental.

I have two problems with this debate, one with the conservative side and one with the liberal. On the conservative side you have people that believe that no matter what, God don't make gender mistakes . . . EVER!!! Well, he makes people with three eyes, no faces, extra genital, seven nipples, conjoined, etc. Why can't this fallen world also produce people that deal with prenatal developmental issues related to hormones and gender-based brain development? The answer is, of course it's possible. Thus, we need to be sensitive to people that could have this problem.

On the liberal side of this debate, these facts are not yet provable in any single individual. There may be people that use homosexuality or gender identity as a way to express profound mental illness and it can't be questioned. That's dangrous.

[Serragon]

So my issue is with your third paragraph. That's what I'm talking about. What they are "known" as is up for debate and is part of the semantics of the argument. There are two different process, once determined at insemination, the other through development. The problem with your article is that it's trying to argue against a gender binary, which works on one level (TG choice issues) but doesn't work on the political underpinnings of the homosexual arguments (born gay) or with gender-based differences in social constructs. It's why I prefer to stay away from politically-based "sciencism" articles and stick with the raw data, which this article downplays, that there ARE differences in the way males and females think. That's developmental.

I have read this 5 times and still cannot understand it fully. It sounds like so much social science gobbldey-gook, complete with buzzwords.

There is no raw data to support the idea that homosexuality or transgenderism is biological.

I agree that men and women do think differently. All of the great thinkers throughout history and across cultures have come to the same conclusion. The same cannot be said for homosexuality and transgenderism. Even cultures where open homosexuality was practiced did not argue it was biological.

I have two problems with this debate, one with the conservative side and one with the liberal. On the conservative side you have people that believe that no matter what, God don't make gender mistakes . . . EVER!!! Well, he makes people with three eyes, no faces, extra genital, seven nipples, conjoined, etc. Why can't this fallen world also produce people that deal with prenatal developmental issues related to hormones and gender-based brain development? The answer is, of course it's possible. Thus, we need to be sensitive to people that could have this problem.

This is a straw man. Evryone acknowledges that birth defects occur. But the existence of a birth defect does not equal transgendered anymore than someone born with a tail is evidence of trans-specieism. Yet these types of defects are constantly used as evidence that gender is not biological. The fact that very rarely a defect occurs does not mean that gender is not biological.

On the liberal side of this debate, these facts are not yet provable in any single individual. There may be people that use homosexuality or gender identity as a way to express profound mental illness and it can't be questioned. That's dangrous.

Homosexuality and transgenderism are mental illnesses. They need help, not encouragement that their fantasy world is real, normal, and healthy.

The LBGTQ cultists have successfully infiltrated the social science depts of our universities and use that authority to spread their propaganda as facts. Your posts are good evidence of just how successful they have been.

[Durzan]

LDS Church to drop support for BSA for youth ages 14 and up; Church working on establishing its own independent program.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... teens.html

[h_p]

LDS Church to drop support for BSA for youth ages 14 and up; Church working on establishing its own independent program.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... teens.html

So I'm not an apostate anymore by thinking this is what the church should do? :ymparty:

[brianj]

So I'm not an apostate anymore by thinking this is what the church should do? :ymparty:

No, but I don't know how much this has to do with recent BSA decisions. I have only been called to the young men presidency in one ward and participated in the YM program in one other ward, but I recall that it was very difficult to get boys 15-17 to participate in anything more than camping trips unless they are working on Eagle.

Therefore I suspect this decision has at least as much to do with youth disinterest as BSA policy. And I have to say that I am pleased that the church will continue to emphasize the earning of Eagle Scout.

[Robin Hood]

In my view they should have dropped the whole thing.

[Silver]

In my view they should have dropped the whole thing.

Baby steps? Instead of just ripping the band-aid off all at once?

[e-eye2.0]

In my view they should have dropped the whole thing.

Baby steps? Instead of just ripping the band-aid off all at once?

Yeah - baby steps is easier for the hard core scouters and it's also easier for the members to work on this little by little instead of having the damn break and everybody running around crazy. The program is still a good program and really is best for boys 8-14. We lose too many boys after 14 and scouting does little to nothing to help stop that loss.

[kittycat51]

From the official Church newsroom website questions and answers: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/q ... en-program

Oh by the way.....HOORAY! :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

[Serragon]

I applaud this decision.

I know this was a tough decision. Pres. Monson is very close to the scouting program. I am sure this was not easy for him.

[h_p]

I was going to keep complaining, since the church is essentially going to be paying for nothing next year to an organization that I despise, but then I realized how much money we'll be saving overall by not having those bloated ward budgets for scouting anymore. I'll put this in the "win" column.

Hopefully, the rest will fall soon, and the BSA will collapse. They ceased being friends of the Church and conservative values a long time ago.

[JK4Woods]

Phew!

I've been associated with Scouts for a number of years. Then I had a break for several more years. Last year I was drug back into it. (Luckily with the younger group).

For years the 14 yr old's and up have had no interest in merit badges... (Whats the point in basket weaving? Animal tracking? come on!).
And it's always been dumb to segregate out the 11 yr old's from the main body of scouting because of their age.

I can hardly stomach the program.... So what I plan to do is invite the boys over every week, and build a boat. A real boat, sixteen feet long. with rowing positions and later a motor. Something that will take an attention span and several months working with tools and thinking and learning.

Then when it's finished.... take it on an adventure down on the lake... and camp out.

I guarantee the boys will get better memories and life skills from building a boat than checking off endless lists of hour long accomplishments...

[pjbrownie]

BEFORE you all celebrate, let's see if this new program works. My initial impression, not so much. If you think cleaning churchs and singing at old folks homes will stem the tide of inactivity, you're dreaming.

[Fiannan]

This is not the last organization that will be damaged for the sensibilities of the left.