Pornography addiction and divorce

[Obrien]

My tongue was FIRMLY planted in my cheek when I wrote that comment - it's hard to get that across without body language and vocal intonation.

[rasattack]

Hmm, this isn't the first time someone has joined the forum in pain, asking for help where the discussion devolved into disputation and condemnation. I hope we can get back to supporting the OP in his struggle. Chive, you are still in my prayers, brother.

I agree, I'm also disappointed to see the way this discussion has gone.

I was thinking about this post at work today and had the realization that the church focuses too much on not doing "bad" things, rather than doing good things. That matches my experience, and I've read of many others who've experienced similar. I spent years thinking I was trash and scum because of porn and lost myself in worthless activities so that I wouldn't think about what I believed were my awful sins. By the time I realized that porn use at some point is nearly universal for all men and that maybe I wasn't a terrible sinner, I'd already done quite a bit of damage to myself. It's now something I can be open about and not feel horrible shame over, but the years of negative thought and behavior have taken their toll and I'm not sure how I'll find my way out.

Chive123, don't hate yourself, and don't blame your wife for what's happened. You're both victims of a society and culture that encourages self-destructive behavior and judging yourself and others. Learn what you can from your experiences and try to do better. Porn isn't the terrible evil that it's portrayed to be. It's certainly not good, but using it doesn't make you a bad person.

[deep water]

When I started a repentance process I remember things like; If I stole something, repentance requires me to return 7 times what I stole. This made me think more than twice before ever thinking about stealing again. That is my way to turn from sin, make repentance 7 times worse than the temporary pleasure received from sin. This may seem harsh, but much better than fire in my opinion.
I also have my own understanding of what constitute sin based upon scripture. Another way to reject porn, in my opinion, is to think about those poor people who are in that situation through force. The illegal sex trade is rampant, both overseas and here at home.

[AI2.0]

Hmm, this isn't the first time someone has joined the forum in pain, asking for help where the discussion devolved into disputation and condemnation. I hope we can get back to supporting the OP in his struggle. Chive, you are still in my prayers, brother.

I agree, I'm also disappointed to see the way this discussion has gone.

I was thinking about this post at work today and had the realization that the church focuses too much on not doing "bad" things, rather than doing good things. That matches my experience, and I've read of many others who've experienced similar. I spent years thinking I was trash and scum because of porn and lost myself in worthless activities so that I wouldn't think about what I believed were my awful sins. By the time I realized that porn use at some point is nearly universal for all men and that maybe I wasn't a terrible sinner, I'd already done quite a bit of damage to myself. It's now something I can be open about and not feel horrible shame over, but the years of negative thought and behavior have taken their toll and I'm not sure how I'll find my way out.

You say that you believe 'porn use at some point is nearly universal for all men', does that mean that you've accepted it as part of who you are and you believe the church should just accept it?

I hope not because this is what the Lord told Joseph Smith on this subject;

"And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the spirit; and if he repents not he shall be cast out". D&C 42:23

And again the Lord said;

"And verily I say unto you, as I have said before, he that looketh on a woman to lust after her, or if any shall commit adultery in their hearts, they shall not have the spirit, but shall deny the faith and shall fear." D&C 63:16

I agree that the church is making it pretty hard for LDS men to enjoy a porn habit, but that is because Heavenly Father, through the Lord Jesus Christ gives commandments and he desires that we obey them. Sorry, but it's there in plain and clear wording. If a person wants to enjoy porn, then they can't have the spirit as their companion and they will deny the faith.

This isn't God being mean or horrible because he doesn't understand basic male impulses. He knows what will destroy us and he warns us against it, hoping we will follow his commands and looking to him for strength and guidance. He sent us down here and gave us agency so that we can choose. Each of us are given trials to overcome, with the help of the Savior and his atonement. If you are LDS and choose to embrace your sins rather than fight them, with his help, you're responsible for that choice. You won't be able to blame the church or society at the Judgment bar of God for teaching you truth which you rejected or chose to deny.

We are given a conscience to help us know right from wrong, but if we consistently choose wrong, we deaden our conscience and of course, the spirit will not stay where it is not wanted. Then we are even more vulnerable to the enticements of the Devil and the more we choose darkness the more we are wrapped in the bonds of Hell--the more power he has over us as we give our agency over to him, instead of willingly choosing to follow God and submitting to his will, which allows his blessings and power to flow to us. I have to wonder if that is truly the kind of advice you want to give others?

Chive123, don't hate yourself, and don't blame your wife for what's happened. You're both victims of a society and culture that encourages self-destructive behavior and judging yourself and others. Learn what you can from your experiences and try to do better. Porn isn't the terrible evil that it's portrayed to be. It's certainly not good, but using it doesn't make you a bad person.

No one ever said Chive was a bad person or should 'hate himself' for what he's struggling with, but as an LDS man, who holds the Priesthood of God, he is expected to try and overcome it, not give in and blame the church, or society/culture or his wife for not allowing him to enjoy living in his sins.

[anonymous91]

I'm not sure if Chive123 will see this or not, but I would like to add some insight for him, or anyone else struggling with similar issues.

First, I have struggled through similar circumstances, both with Porn Addiction as well as a wife that had BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I immediately recognized the symptoms before he even stated he thinks she has a combo of BPD and narcissism.

So, I would first get serious about overcoming your addiction. To start with, work on meeting with your bishop on a regular basis, get involved in the Church's 12 step Program, and get yourself a mentor.

How long will this take to overcome for you, who knows, the important thing is that you are moving forward and doing what you an to overcome this. The 12 step program works, it is through the atonement that we can be saved. I would also suggest to watch this BYU devotional given by Brad Wilcox : His Grace is Sufficient, here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLXr9it_pbY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You may get this behind you in 1-2 years, or you may struggle with this for the rest of your life, but by doing everything you can, God will help you with the rest.

As far as the situation with your ex is concerned, I would get on your knees and find out what God wants you to do. I would also suggest checking out this site to really understand what you are dealing with: http://www.shrink4men.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This site is for men that are involved with women who have BPD. I identified with almost every symptom on that site, I felt relief that I wasn't the only one going through the same thing.

In my personal opinion, living with someone with this disorder takes much more christ-like love, than living with someone with a porn addiction. I wouldn't wish this disorder on my worst enemy.

I would also caution that if you do consider getting back together, that you have family therapy as a requirement. I have been through counseling by myself several times, and spent countless hours researching this. Here's what I found: If your ex refuses to go to counseling, or see a doctor, there is a 0% chance things will work out in the long run. If she agrees to counseling/doctor you'll have a fighting chance.

The ultimate answer is between you and God though. Everyone's situation is different and unique.

Hope this helps anyone with a similar situation.

[skmo]

Would someone please tell me what they define as "Porn addiction?"

Please, I really am curious.

You know what drug addiction is, right? It's the same thing.

No, really, it is. Why is sex so much fun? Because of the chemical reactions in the pleasure center in your brain. Why do people get addicted to drugs? Because of their inability to stop using the substance that stimulates the part of their brain they give in to. The physical action of a smoker putting a cigarette in their mouth is a physical part of the addiction that gets a chemical fix from the nicotine. A porn addict gets a physical response from the chemical reaction in his (or her) brain from their physical action which usually results in an orgasm.

Addiction is when you know something is bad but you have a physiological and/or psychological need to partake in it.

[skmo]

Just saw this linked at Drudge: http://www.vocativ.com/news/205435/stud ... -isnt-real" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems that porn addiction just does not exist -- I would speculate that it is a symptom of OCD, or a guilt-complex reaction. Still, it is not accurate to say people caught looking at porn are addicted.

Oh, look, some butthead Ivory Tower theoretician has a rationalized excuse why perversions shouldn't be considered bad. Gee, that's the first time some pseudo-glorified quack has sought to undermine standards of decency so society can be brought down to the lowest common denominator. It's a good thing that things like this didn't exist in the Roman Republic/Empire so that Rome would fall from power and be replaced.. by...

Um,

Never mind. It's really sad to see, but since the late 50s/early 60s, the more letters a person has after their name the more likely they are to be involved in justification of perversity as normalcy.

[skmo]

I knew a Catholic couple who had been married for 50 years and raised a bunch of kids. He still worked and would sometimes go with the younger men to the strip club. She once commented to me that if any of those young women wanted to steal him and his wrinkled behind they were welcome to him. Of course she was being realistic, there was no way he would leave his wife.

There you had a very good example of a couple who grew their love for themselves along with the love for their spouse to know that we all have imperfections and yet they look beyond their failings to support one another. You can bet that wife wouldn't have had that kind of surety in the sanctity of her marriage if the husband hadn't been a good husband and helped her grow to believe in herself.

Yes, they had a very happy marriage. Now do I support porn or stripping? Nope! But I also do not support alcohol, but I would never advise a person to leave their husband or wife if the spouse occasionally had a glass of wine with a meal.

However, if the spouse had a bottle and a half of Grey Goose with every meal, and they couldn't quit either that action or the pain caused by the drunken fighting it caused, it may be a time to consider separation, if the cure wasn't willingly sought.

I say that as a man who, within the last couple of years, had a couple weeks worth of pain relief cure of 4-6 bottles a day of 190 proof Everclear.

[skmo]

Tell me where in the DSM that this "addiction" is covered.

For those who don't know, DSM:

DEZE SUPER MINDS - Dis id da persons vid da GRATE mindz, you know, who iz ÜBER smarter den da leetle peonswho don't know nuffin because of da fact dat dey is peons. Dey doesn't need to bodder vid explainning nuttin to da peons coz dey is so much more smarter den every wun else in da Vorld.

Yeah, you might say I have a fairly low opinion of psychologists, (all of them, but behaviorists most of all) sociologists, and many of the "medical" personnel (dare I say quacks?) who cling to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders they use to destroy civilization. When I did my Masters in Special Ed I came to really loathe a lot of what passes for "wisdom" in higher education.

[skmo]

Psychology does not recognize this condition, sorry, that is just the way it is.

That's fine, because I'd be willing to bet that God doesn't recognize Psychology as an actual "Science" anyway. Nor sociology nor many of the other new-age behavioral craps that the pipe-smoking turtlenecks at Hah-Vahd practice either. Fairly sure Korihor recognizes it, though.

I am going to assume that you have no idea how hurtful your comments are to women, especially those who are burdened with a spouse addicted to pornography. Your comments are shallow, flippant, and lacking in compassion or empathy for something that brings a lot of real misery to the husband/wife relationship and can affect children as well.

No intent to hurt anyone, just explaining this phenomena using standard evolutionary psychology.

Yeah, good one. Apply monkey science to obedience of God's commandments.

[skmo]

If a man (or woman) ever looks at his/her spouses phone, laptop, computer, tablet, or whatever, looking for history or recent activity of any kind, that person is a very sick individual and has far deeper issues that porn. This indicates a complete lack of trust. If there is no trust, why even be married?

I would agree with this to a point. However, I'm guessing you haven't been an addict, and you've not been married to one.

Let's say a husband has an addiction to opiate pain killers. The doctor he's seeing retires and the replacement refuses to give the usual 12 a day prescription of the strongest Percocets made to the man. He's a good little LDS boy who doesn't want to get illegal drugs, so he realizes he makes enough money that he can fly from Alaska down to Phoenix where he can rent a car and drive to Mexico to see 6 different doctors to get enough prescriptions to last a couple of months, then flies back home to teach in Alaska again. If the wife notices that they aren't paying off student loans because their monthly expenses are too high, should she be concerned enough to investigate a little? Luckily (or rather unluckily) for SOMEONE I know, his wife didn't.

I didn't have a porn addiction because I didn't bother with it, I went straight past the middle man and went for adultery. However, I have a few friends I've seen have porn separate them from their families. Husbands and wives should be able to trust one another, but human nature sometimes gets in the way. Sometimes a spouse may have an idea something may be wrong, and at times "snooping" may be the only way to discover the truth, if one is insistent on finding it.Trust is good, but if it's broken, sometimes it's danged hard to restore.

[ason123]

If I had one piece of advice for you, it would be to give yourself the DIGNITY these things:

1) The DIGNITY of letting life be imperfect sometimes. If you love your wife, you will just have to forgive her for dating someone else after your divorce (even if it is very dysfunctional in your eyes, she has her reasons). Just recognize this situation for what it is... an imperfect way of her trying to find herself and feel self-worth once again. If you really want her back, know that it is completely possible to get back together (especially if she really does love you like you said)! Yes, it will be bumpy and difficult along the way, but you can convince her to make a real commitment with you, complete with a written-out declaration of what you two believe in regarding marriage, what behavior you agree to stick to, and taking into account AHEAD OF TIME how you will handle situations of relapse on BOTH sides (porn for you, promiscuity for her). Life will not be ideal at first, but that's okay! You can roll with this!

2) The DIGNITY of being honest. You have messed up in the past. You might even mess up in the future. What this entails is that you can't be a sly weasel and try to hide when you mess up. Sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. You will first have to make a plan of alternative coping mechanisms (like...cooking a gourmet meal or watching your favorite tv show or serving someone instead of watching porn). Then, if despite your go-to plan, you mess up and watch porn, you MUST own up to it. DO NOT let her find out by herself if you messed up. You must just go to her and tell her directly that you messed up and you feel terrible about it, but you are going to continue to fight this. You are still the same old guy who loves her to death and wouldn't trade her for the world, but you messed up anyway, despite how you truly feel about her. You can even have a pre-set consequence... like you must clean the entire house top to bottom without help and do all the laundry without help and you will give her massages every night for a month! I mean, really OWN IT when you mess up. Take it seriously. Make sure she feels loved and served if you have hurt her. Say sorry and mean it! It isn't easy to break an addiction but being honest and accountable is the halfway point (even though it is hard and painful it is better than you two breaking up again).

3) The DIGNITY of knowing you are a son of God. You are a prince. A well-loved, imperfect prince. Royalty. Your decisions in the past need not define what you choose to do in the future. Your ultimate standard of behavior should be working toward being a wise king. You are a diamond in the rough, and Satan wants nothing more than to take your potential away from you by convincing you to justify unholy behavior and then feel like crap afterwards. Keep reminding yourself of that, because it is absolutely true. Hopefully that might convince you of how important it is to stand in holy places and be not moved. Do everything you can to not forget this. Put a picture of Christ, the temple, and your family next to your computer to remind you that pornography on the computer should never come between these things. As for your phone, I would recommend putting a picture of Christ as your wallpaper, to remind you of your elder brother who is the ultimate example to you of how you must live. If your problem becomes too severe consider getting a crappy flip phone with no internet or a land line. Hey! People survived in the past without smart phones. It is a privilege, not a right. Just remember that.

Well Chive, you can do this! You certainly seem to love your wife. Now the most challenging part will be to truly humble yourself before her and God and be serious about making your family whole again, and ultimately convince her that you are both more than capable of making this work. It is a REAL commitment. Only proceed if you truly mean to stick to it. That's all for now.

[Fiannan]

Would someone please tell me what they define as "Porn addiction?"

Please, I really am curious.

You know what drug addiction is, right? It's the same thing.

No, really, it is. Why is sex so much fun? Because of the chemical reactions in the pleasure center in your brain. Why do people get addicted to drugs? Because of their inability to stop using the substance that stimulates the part of their brain they give in to. The physical action of a smoker putting a cigarette in their mouth is a physical part of the addiction that gets a chemical fix from the nicotine. A porn addict gets a physical response from the chemical reaction in his (or her) brain from their physical action which usually results in an orgasm.

Addiction is when you know something is bad but you have a physiological and/or psychological need to partake in it.

How about the fact that the more you believe something is wrong the more your body will react with dopamines since you are mixing higher levels of fear into the behavior? Then depression sets in since you believe you have done something really wrong and the only way to deal with it is to get that dopamine high by doing the porn again. So, ironically, the people most prone to having an attraction to porn are the ones who rank it the highest in the sin category. So the people having special family home evenings to discuss the dangers of porn will have far more difficulty staying away from porn than the families where the parents merely suggest they evaluate if porn is worth wasting time on.

[skmo]

So my question..was she justified to divorce? Did she respond to the dilemma properly? I know what my part was in the divorce. I know what I did to cause it. I take ownership. But was it 100 percent my fault? Did she have no choice?

We know you've admitted to your faults, has she admitted to hers? That's an important item for you to consider. If you want your relationship with her to work, you're going to have to realize it's going to take a very huge effort on your part, and you have to be both willing and able to pay that price. What exactly that price is, is something only you and she and the Spirit can decide.

She may or may not admit to fault, she may or may not have been able to give more of herself to save the marriage at times in the past. However, again, this comes back to you. You cannot force another person, all you can do is your best to make it work. However, at this point it's most important that you make YOU work right and well. Heal yourself through prayer and fasting, and maybe a priesthood blessing. Ask god to help you truly wash away your sins, cleanse the person you are willingly and thoroughly through the Atonement. Build up your worthiness and your strength in Christ's teachings and the priesthood's blessings.

If you do all you can do to obtain forgiveness (a truly broken heart, a contrite spirit, a humble countenance) you will have done all you can do to heal the relationship. It's more than just you and her, you need to do this for your kids as well. If they see a father who has the light from the Holy Spirit, who can bless them with his priesthood they're going to be a greater sense of strength to both you and her to make things work.

If you've done all of those things and she still refuses you, be the best person in her life you can be. If there's no way it will work out, doing all you can do you have to trust Christ will make things right for you. If not with her, with someone who can appreciate the things you've done. When we follow God's commandments, He blesses us. Job lost everything he had: Wealth, family, love, health. When he proved himself faithful and was humble before God he was blessed with greater wealth, a larger family, and a long healthy life.

Heal yourself and obey the commandments and you'll get the desires of your heart. You may want it to work out with her, but just as you can't be forced into doing anything, neither can she. If she was wrong and repents and comes to you, great. If you've been as faithful as you can and you keep praying for her to return but she doesn't, remember that sometimes unanswered prayers are the best answer you can get because He is looking after you.

[zionminded]

This article may interest some of you.

https://www.addiction.com/expert-blogs/ ... n-dsm-5-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Keep in mind, sexual dysfunction can be maladaptive (I've seen it in my practice many times), but that doesn't make sex an addiction in the same context as Heroine, or Meth, Gambling or Alcohol, all of which are not natural behaviors. It's a fine line, and heavily debated. Read that article.

[skmo]

Is the mother of the teenage son entitled to abandon him if she found out he was hiding porn use? Should she withdrawal her love for him completely and replace him?

No parent should withdraw their love for a child, but sometimes it may be necessary to slap a hand rather than hold it. If a child is 18 and bringing sin and depravity into the home that is destroying other members of the family? Then it may be necessary for the parents to tell that child they need to go out and find their own way. That should never be done without prayer and careful consideration, but recognize that it may happen.

Is a struggling child different to the family unit than a struggling spouse?

Sometimes, yes, because parents are supposed to have greater understanding of what right and wrong is, and they are supposed to be providing a healthy atmosphere to bring their children up in the gospel. However, that's not a question with a clear yes or no answer, and only by careful prayer and consideration can it be determined what the correct answer is.

Are we teaching it's ok to give up on our eternal companions but it's never ok to abandon our own kids? Putting kids before your spouse? Last I checked that can be damaging to a marriage.

Are you sincerely asking those questions to learn if there is truth in them or are you trying to find blame with your wife's actions to justify some of your own? I am not asking that to accuse you or to suggest that you may be doing that, I just mean that is another question you may be in need of asking yourself. It sounds to me like both you and she have a lot of healing you need to do, and only you guys can decide if it's worth the effort. If you do, make the decision and stick with it. You have the strength within you to do whatever it takes, it's up to you to decide if it's worth it. Same with her.

[skmo]

So my question..was she justified to divorce? Did she respond to the dilemma properly? I know what my part was in the divorce. I know what I did to cause it. I take ownership. But was it 100 percent my fault? Did she have no choice?

After you get better, you'll probably have a better understanding.

You want an LDS wife, right? Well, its a buyer's market out there since there are more single active single LDS women than men. Also, there are a lot of less intolerant ones out there. You have a choice, feel bad about yourself and create a negative energy that will repel desirable women or move on with life.

My over-educated friend here is correct. There will almost always be more available wonderful women than there will be decent guys. I'm also still a big believer in words my first bishop at Ricks (and my Gen Psych111 professor) said: Any 2 GOOD LDS people can make a successful and happy eternal marriage. Finding someone who is a good match for our particular needs makes it easier, but any 2 good people who have a strong testimony of the restored gospel can make things work, because it's more about being the right person than it is about finding the right person.

Was she justified to end a marriage over pornography? Was it excessive, to the point of excluding her physically or mentally? If not then she was not justified.

Again, those are questions only she can answer, but they're also ones you're going to have to be willing to accept as well.

Your goal should be to find a woman who you can start a new relatinship with and, depending on her age, a new family. Like I said, there are a lot of single LDS women out there who deserve a husband who will love them and give them the opportunity to bear children. In a way it would be selfish to isolate yourself; after all, maybe your future eternal companion is out there wondering if she will ever meet the man she always hoped for. Find her!

Yes. Find one who is supportive and constructive and humble. More important, be those things yourself.

[skmo]

That ratio made me heavily consider joining lol
But then I remembered who I was and...that's just not gonna work :))

I'm an adulterous, manipulative, undisciplined fool who has, at times, had less than half of the personal integrity I should, have an enormous libido with few constraints on the intimacy we shared (and later in our relationship shared outside of our marriage) and I'm not exactly careful with finances.

I still managed to find a beautiful, well-formed chubby girl with an appetite to match and still as kind and loving a nature as can be. I can't believe you have much less to offer than I.

[skmo]

Personally I don't get the whole guilt process but many people seem to be burdened by it.

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

"Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it."

"And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls."

"Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness."

[skmo]

I was thinking about this post at work today and had the realization that the church focuses too much on not doing "bad" things, rather than doing good things. That matches my experience, and I've read of many others who've experienced similar.

I have to slightly disagree. I think the leaders of the church focus on the good, but many members have focused on the bad for so long they don't know any other way. The church has started a new program teaching the teachers. My wife, a teacher by profession, says they're trying to shift the messages that get taught have more positive rewarding tones and fewer punishes. She finds it funny because much of education in the last few years has done the same: Focus on modeling proper behavior and rewarding it si it multiplies rather than bad actions doing so.

When you look at the messages in The Ensign, I see: "Finding Miracles" and "Blessed for my Service" and "Building the Kingdom in Kangarooland." Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative.

It's now something I can be open about and not feel horrible shame over, but the years of negative thought and behavior have taken their toll and I'm not sure how I'll find my way out.

Actually, it is something horrible and you should feel shame over it, but the lesson was only half-taught. It needed to include more of the belief that His Grace truly is sufficient, and guilt is not something you should give power over you, it should be something you use to banish evil from your life. I fear what will happen as the next generation comes along and believes that porn is not a really big thing and what consequences that may bring.

Porn really is an evil, and its participants and partakers should feel guilt, but guilt is what's getting the bad wrap. Our society is focusing more on how guilt is a bad thing. That's only half true. The rest of the truth is that all of that guilt can be fully washed away, and your value as a spirit child of God has value beyond comprehension.

Chive123, don't hate yourself, and don't blame your wife for what's happened. You're both victims of a society and culture that encourages self-destructive behavior and judging yourself and others. Learn what you can from your experiences and try to do better. Porn isn't the terrible evil that it's portrayed to be. It's certainly not good, but using it doesn't make you a bad person.

For chive, porn certainly was as terrible as it's made out to be. However, your last phrase is an even more important part: It does NOT make you a bad person. Even having a porn addiction doesn't make you a bad person. Giving in to it, embracing it, spreading it to others, THAT would make you a bad person. However, even bad people can repent. Hate is easier to acquire, but ultimately love is stronger.

[anonymous91]

Zionminded wrote:

"Keep in mind, sexual dysfunction can be maladaptive (I've seen it in my practice many times), but that doesn't make sex an addiction in the same context as Heroine, or Meth, Gambling or Alcohol, all of which are not natural behaviors. It's a fine line, and heavily debated. "

I would have to disagree with this. I personally know of several others that have struggled with all 3 addictions (alcohol, drugs, and porn). Of the 3 addictions, the one that is always the hardest to kick is porn. Part of this reason may be due to the availability of porn. I don't believe that everyone that views it is "addicted", but there are those that definitely are.

A pretty candid discussion that goes into more detail can be found at mormonstories, here's the link: http://www.mormonstories.org/245-pornog ... mormonism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Based on Chive123 issues, I would say he has an addiction, it doesn't sound like he's allowed it to get totally out of control. He is definitely struggling with this, and will do so for the rest of his life. When you have to worry about this on a daily basis, and worry about slipping up, this is an addiction.

There are studies that show how porn addicts brains have literally been rewired, and are similar to what one would expect to see from a drug addict's brain scan.

The other issue, that really troubles me, is his ex's disorders. If I was to choose between porn addiction or someone with Borderline Personality Disorder(BPD), I would rather deal with the Porn addiction. I think that most people have no idea how big of an issue this can be.

Just to give you an idea of how bad this can be, check out these articles:

https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... nal-bully/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... ity-women/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://shrink4men.com/2012/03/27/the-to ... rincesses/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://shrink4men.com/2012/03/27/the-to ... rincesses/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obviously, both Chive123 and his ex have some very serious issues to overcome. To make this work out, both will need to have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. The power of the atonement can work for all of us, but it is up to our choices and agency to make this work.

I finally came to the conclusion for myself that I was willing to go through the steps I needed to take advantage of the atonement, unfortunately my spouse did not, and sometimes that happens.

I would make sure that you pray and follow God's will on this one. His will may not be what you want to hear, but what you need to hear. Hope this helps.

[Patriot16]

[blows whistle] Sorry, but I’m not buying much of the discussion here and I respectfully suggest that the Emperor has no clothes. Most of the discussion seems to assume that womens’ sexuality is the only sexuality allowed and that mens’ sexuality is to be condemned. This means much of the discussion is about trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole (no hidden meanings intended).

For many years when I lived in Utah, I was a jack Mormon surrounded by TBMs. Many LDS guys would confidentially approach me, as a non-believer, to vent about many things including their wish for polygamy to be reinstituted because they thought competition between sister wives would encourage the women to provide men with more enthusiastic and more frequent physical intimacy. After several years of this, I concluded that many LDS men’s sexual needs were not being met because many LDS women had been taught that male sexuality had no validity, was disgusting and sinful and that mens' sexual needs didn't have to be met.

Driven by testosterone, men hunger for eroticism and physical intimacy, some more than others. But within the Mormon community, eroticism nd physical intimacy, even in marriage, are considered carnality which is considered sinful. In the Temple, when couples are sealed in marriage, they are typically counseled that now that they are married, many things formerly forbidden, are now not only allowed, but encouraged. Men think this means their sexuality (including being permitted to enjoy the sight of their wives’ naked bodies, and passionate love-making) will be permitted, but many LDS women, brain-washed after years of being taught that carnality is ALWAYS sinful, continue to think it still is. Many LDS wives refuse to let their husbands see them undressed, insist that temple garments be worn during sex, require that the lights be turned off for sex, insist on prayer or scripture sharing before sex, much of the time automatically rebuff their husbands’ advances as disgusting, refuse oral sex as disgusting, think their husband’s need for visual eroticism is disgusting, be disgusted by and condemn their husbands’ “impure thoughts,” never initiate sex, and for the sake of purity and spirituality, stingily ration out minimal, bland, unenthusiastic sex. In other words, many LDS women completely reject their husbands’ testosterone-driven sexuality.

I admit that many LDS men do not try to satisfy their wives’ needs, sexually or otherwise, and are thus bad husbands and fathers. And I admit that some LDS women try to meet their husbands' sexual needs. But I think on the whole more problems are caused by LDS women failing to meet their husbands’ needs. And I suggest these LDS women are aided and abetted by misguided religious teachings which, for years, have vigorously railed against “carnality,” i.e., mens’ sexuality. Some religious teachers have made statements against “indiscriminate sex” and sex to “satisfy passions and lusts” [http://www.mormonmatters.org/2008/03/17 ... f-history/]. In 1982, the top leadership issued a written statement restricted to priesthood holders explicitly forbidding oral sex as “unholy” [http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/mormon_oral_sex.htm] and in the April 2006 Conference, a sermon forbad lewd language and pornography as part of LDS physical intimacy [same source as previous]. Comments on several LDS ladies’ blogs condemn the blogs’ embedded ads for books on frequent or even daily sex as pornographic and thus disgusting [http://www.theculturalhallpodcast.com/2 ... -oral-sex/ At the bottom, in the comments section, see “anonymous’s” condemnation of the books promoting daily sex]. In contrast, I do not recall very many religious statements or sermons encouraging women to acknowledge, accept, or meet their husbands’ sexual needs. If any of you readers know of any, I’d love to see them.

I think that this wholesale assault on mens’ sexuality including visual (pornography) and verbal eroticism and passionate love-making (including even natural “sexual thoughts” and “fantasies”) convinces many LDS women not to meet their husbands’ sexual needs. And I don’t think it helps women, either. Several studies have shown that all adult women of all ages respond with sexual arousal to images of nudity and sex and about at the same speed (about ten minutes) as men [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_arousal]. This applied to all the women studied, including those who denied they were aroused. The condemned books mentioned above where married couples have frequent, even daily sex, tend to conclude benefits to both spouses including that daily intercourse brought them closer. Incidentally, while the 1982 statement forbidding oral sex for married people has not been formally rescinded, the 1998 Church Handbook of Instruction dropped explicit condemnation of oral sex [http://www.mormonmatters.org/2008/03/17 ... f-history/].

If I may be so bold, I think male sexuality is just as valid as female sexuality and that to condemn it hurts many people. I think that the whole hullabaloo about how women should condemn and even divorce husbands who enjoy pornography is part of an overall rejection of completely natural male sexuality. I understand that some women do not know that men, too, have their own God-given sexuality, distinct from that of women, and think that men have no right to their own sexuality, which they should repress so they can simply be like women sexually. But I find it arrogant for women to think that their sexuality is the only valid sexuality and that mens’ sexuality is disgusting and not valid. I also understand that the Church’s top leadership, which has an average age of 80, is probably less driven by sexuality than are younger, more sexually active men. But, to paraphrase an old, rather crude saying, I think if you’re no longer playing the game, you shouldn’t be making the rules for those still in the game.

Now, for heaven's sake, I'm not promoting premarital sex, promiscuity, porn addition, sex addition, pedophila, plural marriage, that men's sexuality is the only valid sexuality, or that women should try to be more like men. I AM defending the natural and genuine need for testosterone-driven males for visual eroticism and loving, romantic, and passionate sex with their wives. And I am defending men and women compromising with each other to meet the sexual needs of both and mutually deciding how and when to engage in sexual activities with which both are comfortable.

Patriot16

[Sirocco]

That ratio made me heavily consider joining lol
But then I remembered who I was and...that's just not gonna work :))

I'm an adulterous, manipulative, undisciplined fool who has, at times, had less than half of the personal integrity I should, have an enormous libido with few constraints on the intimacy we shared (and later in our relationship shared outside of our marriage) and I'm not exactly careful with finances.

I still managed to find a beautiful, well-formed chubby girl with an appetite to match and still as kind and loving a nature as can be. I can't believe you have much less to offer than I.

I am alright with finances lol
Though I am pretty abysmal socially at times. It all comes down to that, to me, and fear of being ruined by divorce.

[Fiannan]

Patriot, your analysis is very good. I will bet this problem exists in all conservative religions though, as well as hyper-secular societies.

For instance, the whole "Madonna-Whore" complex originated with Catholic culture. A man's wife had to be an extension of Mary and thus sex was for procreation. However, Catholic culture assumes that richer men can take mistresses and poor men prostitutes to satisfy the cravings for sexually unleashed women. Of course there you have a confessional with a priest to absolve you of sins. Keeps the men in church I suppose.

In hyper-secular societies like Scandinavia passion is discouraged. There is nothing less "sexy" than a Scandinavian woman on a beach -- they may as well be in their underwear in a locker-room. And I have heard this expressed by women who have moved to Scandinavian countries from Slavic, Italian or even Persian cultures. Scandinavian nations believe gender is a social construct that needs to be harmonized to a socialistic ideal. One can think of the scene where Winston in 1984 is thinking back to his wife. Sex is a duty to the state, and then when he is with the proletarian prostitute again, no passion, just satisfying a need. This may be why Scandinavian intimacy in marriage (frequency) ranks lowest in Europe.

So sex and sexuality can be damaged in both conservative and secular societies.

The whole porn hysteria thing only got big in Mormon culture when the internet exploded. Before that porn was something available on the wrong side of the tracks. Now, thanks to a large degree by mainstreaming due to international hotel chains, porn is part of middle class existence. Has it damaged marriages? Of course. Has it saved men, and women, from seeking sex with real people when it is rationed or denied by a spouse and thus saved marriages? That true is obvious. One wonders what will change as virtual reality advances.

[anonymous91]

zionminded wrote:

"Keep in mind, sexual dysfunction can be maladaptive (I've seen it in my practice many times), but that doesn't make sex an addiction in the same context as Heroine, or Meth, Gambling or Alcohol, all of which are not natural behaviors. It's a fine line, and heavily debated. Read that article."

I would disagree with this. I've been addicted to porn for years, and know just how hard it is to overcome. I know several members in my 12 step meetings that were addicted to all 3 addictions (porn, alcohol, and drugs). Guess which one is the hardest for them to overcome?
It's Porn Addiction. I would agree that there are varying degrees: those that are the worst allow it to consume every aspect of their lives. This is also true of other addictions though. You may find this study enlightening:

http://yourbrainonporn.com/cambridge-un ... -addiction" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I believe that this problem is more prevalent with LDS men, in part due to how the church represses sexuality. This can be compounded after marriage if a man's wife is not properly educated on how to deal with porn addiction, as Patriot16 pointed out some of these issues.

Furthermore, what is a man to do if his wife decides to not be intimate with him? (i.e. sexless marriage, no kissing, hugs, cuddling, no intimate contact) Live in celibacy for the rest of his life? That's the only choice we are given, which perpetuates porn addiction.

Ideally everyone who deals with porn addiction, would love to just turn it off, it's just not that simple. There are some guys that are really fortunate, it's not that hard for them to stop. I guess this depends on a lot of factors: how long they've been viewing porn, intervals between sessions, porn content (some guys call Victoria Secrets porn; go figure), how addicted they are to it, libido, and I'd imagine a lot of other factors as well.

From what I have seen those who abstain from it permanently or for long stretches do the following:

1- Actively attending the church's 12 step Program weekly. Some of these guys have been clean for decades. They still go, it's just to easy to slip up otherwise. They are also actively going through the steps. The entire program focuses on understanding Christ's Atonement, and applying it in our lives.

2- Accountability Partner(s). Many of the men are married, and one of their accountability partners is their wife. Although, this can be discouraging for those of us who don't have a wife. (Although, in my case, I wouldn't want my ex back). When you feel your going to slip you should talk to your accountability partner. Also, report at least weekly.

3- Daily Prayer and Scripture Study.

4- Setting Filters, that accountability partners have 24/7 access to.

5- Finding out your triggers, and choosing healthier outlets to ovecome this addiction. These triggers can be just about anything.

For example: Loneliness, stress, boredom, lack of intimacy, feelings of worthlessness, not being appreciated, etc.

This is why a wife that doesn't understand porn addiction will do more harm than good. The natural reaction is to get upset at her husband and let him have it. Obviously the man feels guilty, and worthless, which feeds the addiction, and perpetuates the cycle all over again.

It's not that a man is committing "adultery" which he is constantly accused of by many women, nor that he doesn't appreciate his spouse. Along with a whole bunch of other nonsensical notions. The reality is that most men were addicted when they were just kids (before we even knew better). So, instead of learning healthy ways to deal with their emotions, they used porn to cope instead. This changes the brain chemistry and the way the brain functions. See this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ual-tastes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The best thing a wife can do is to communicate with her husband, do her best to understand what he is going through. Here is a great broadcast that helps men/woman understand this issue better from mormonstories:

http://www.mormonstories.org/245-pornog ... mormonism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I really hope this helps anyone that is either struggling with a porn addiction, or a spouse that really wants to help out.

Just to point out, that mormon men addicted to porn ranges anywhere from 70-90%, in other words this is a huge problem. In addition, porn addiction with mormon women ranges anywhere from 35-50%. This is based on which studies you look at. Just know it is a huge issue both inside and outside of the church.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that singles in the church is going to skyrocket due to this issue. Single men/woman already have their checklist of what they will/won't accept in an eternal companion, and porn addicts (Current or prior addicts) are not marriage material on most women's lists. Which could be a whole other post. The point is that this is such a huge issue that people need to really understand it and how to properly deal with it.

In Chive123's situation, I believe he has a much bigger issue to work through. His ex seems to have all the classic signs of one that has Borderline Personality Disorder/Narcissism. Just to give everyone an idea of why this worries me, please refer to this article,

13 Signs Your Wife or Girlfriend is a Borderline or a Narcissist:

https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... ity-women/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Furthermore, as Chive123 adds additional details about his ongoing relationship with his ex, it is following a pattern that I recognized. Here's an article to refer to, Relationship Stages with a Narcissist or Borderline and Triangulation:

http://shrink4men.com/2015/12/22/relati ... ngulation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you have read both of these articles, you will see why I am so worried about Chive123 wanting to get back together with his ex. Believe me I can relate, I was there. I married one, been out for 7 years and would never get back into a relationship with my ex. The very though terrifies me. Here's a funny article that sums it up nicely, The Top 10 Reasons Why Men Should Avoid Princesses:

http://shrink4men.com/2012/03/27/the-to ... rincesses/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't know if anyone remembers Jodi Arias, but she is a classic example of someone with this very disorder.

My personal opinion, is to be very cautious about attempting to reconcile with his ex. I came to the conclusion that to make such a relationship work it would take the following:

1- God's blessings. Which is why I advise to find out God's will on this. In my case, I received the strongest answer I've ever felt to divorce. Everyone's situation is different though.

2- A willingness of both husband and wife to be 100% onboard. This would require broken hearts and contrite spirits from both parties. Focusing on Christ's Atonement to heal each other.

3- I would also recommend counseling with a specialist in BPD/Narcissm. Extremely high chance of his ex being put on medications, or behavorial therapy. Even this may not be enough.

Sadly, there are children caught up in this entire mess. This is another reality to consider. What is best for the children?

This is a question that Chive123 needs to consider as well. I would advise whatever choice he makes, that he ensures that there is at least one household that is a safe/stable environment for his children to go to.