Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

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SAM
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by SAM »

BroJones wrote:Multiple mortal probations is a Denver Snuffer teaching, please correct me if I'm wrong.


I was personally thinking about and studying this stuff long before I knew who DS was. I don't know that he has ever overtly taught it either, although I feel he alludes to the idea a bit.

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Alberta Rose
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Alberta Rose »

The online book, Eternal Lives, by JJ Dewey is an excellent place to really understand the doctrine of multiple mortal probations.
http://www.freeread.com/eternal-lives-chapter-1/

I invite you to read all 17 chapters of his book. (It is a short book so don't let the 17 chapters scare you off.) It is well researched with biblical and latter day references to support the doctrine. I haven't found a better source than this book which gives a Latter Day Saint perspective of the doctrine.

He uses the word reincarnation (he is also addressing a non latter day saint audience) synonymously with a cycle of death, resurrection and rebirth and not in the usual sense that we in Western society define the word. Dewey’s use of the word reincarnation does not mean being reborn as another species.

This book was my first introduction to the doctrine of Eternal Lives or Multiple Mortal Probations (MMP) from a scriptural point of view. Before reading this book I really didn’t know what to make of the doctrine/theory. Study it out and decide for yourself what you think of it. To me, the doctrine makes perfect sense and is just one more piece of the puzzle to God’s plan of salvation.

SAM
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by SAM »

shadow wrote:"15 minutes to Judge Wapner and The People's Court." Raymond


Phil: I'm a god.
Rita: You're God.
Phil: I'm a god — I'm not the God, I don't think.
Rita: Because you survived a car wreck?
Phil: I didn't just survive a wreck; I wasn't just blown up yesterday. I have been stabbed, shot, poisoned, frozen, hung, electrocuted and burned.
Rita: Oh really?
Phil: [nods] Every morning I wake up without a scratch on me, not a dent in the fender: I am an immortal.
Just watched this last night (because we missed our yearly February 2nd watching because of my husband's work travel).

SAM
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by SAM »

azalea.rubicon wrote:What does this mean for the sons of Perdition?
My current feeling (and I'm open to correction or expansion of my current understanding so I'm not declaring this as 100%) is that anyone who denies the Holy Ghost, which in essence is denying their own potential divinity after having a full knowledge of what they're denying, will make them subject to spiritual death. This is not spiritual death in the sense that one is separated from God but an actual death of their spirit where the intelligences that make up that particular spirit are broken apart, never to be reformed into that same spirit again. I think it's likely a rare occurrence.

boo
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by boo »

Alberta Rose wrote:The online book, Eternal Lives, by JJ Dewey is an excellent place to really understand the doctrine of multiple mortal probations.
http://www.freeread.com/eternal-lives-chapter-1/

I invite you to read all 17 chapters of his book. (It is a short book so don't let the 17 chapters scare you off.) It is well researched with biblical and latter day references to support the doctrine. I haven't found a better source than this book which gives a Latter Day Saint perspective of the doctrine.

He uses the word reincarnation (he is also addressing a non latter day saint audience) synonymously with a cycle of death, resurrection and rebirth and not in the usual sense that we in Western society define the word. Dewey’s use of the word reincarnation does not mean being reborn as another species.

This book was my first introduction to the doctrine of Eternal Lives or Multiple Mortal Probations (MMP) from a scriptural point of view. Before reading this book I really didn’t know what to make of the doctrine/theory. Study it out and decide for yourself what you think of it. To me, the doctrine makes perfect sense and is just one more piece of the puzzle to God’s plan of salvation.
I personally thing that for most the book
-
_"Teachings of The Doctrine of Eternal Lives" is a much better introduction to the idea .The author offers no commentary but simply quotes scripture and early church leaders and occasionally members who testified to what joseph taught. If you have any interest at all in the subject this is the best volume I am aware of on the subject . It is enlightening since there are no subjective comments by the author at all,

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Rose Garden
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

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SAM wrote:
azalea.rubicon wrote:What does this mean for the sons of Perdition?
My current feeling (and I'm open to correction or expansion of my current understanding so I'm not declaring this as 100%) is that anyone who denies the Holy Ghost, which in essence is denying their own potential divinity after having a full knowledge of what they're denying, will make them subject to spiritual death. This is not spiritual death in the sense that one is separated from God but an actual death of their spirit where the intelligences that make up that particular spirit are broken apart, never to be reformed into that same spirit again. I think it's likely a rare occurrence.
I believe spiritual death causes disintegration just as physical death does. Although I'm not exactly sure what constitutes spiritual death.

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aeon
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by aeon »

I've thought a lot about that lately, and these are my random thoughts on the matter( and I don't believe in DS)

- Christ had power over death, maybe that comes from another life( having resurrected etc.)
- I understand that the Holy Ghost is going to get a body in order to perform a work of salvation
Butt the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body. as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies...(From: The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph. (Andrew F. Ehat, and Lyndon W. Cook, eds.. Orem, Utah: Grandin Book Company, 1996) , 382)
- in the temple, it says we can only become kings. Does not say a word about becoming a god. What is the path from kinghood to Godhood ?
- Line upon line, precept upon precept is an eternal principle. You become a king, then there is a plan somewhere else for other children and you become a Holy Ghost to them, then maybe for some other children, you become a Savior. I have no problem with that.
- According to the king follet discourse, God did the same work of salvation that Christ did. In order to attain Godhood, why would it be different to us ?
KF discourse: " Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible"
- Reincarnation and MMP are two different things.
- Christ did not understand all things until after He atoned for the sins of the world. If we want to understand all things, we need to pass through the same stuff. D&C 88 : 6 "he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth"
- How can you become a full scale God if your salvation depends on someone else ?
- quick comparison between Christ's invitation prior to his atoning sacrifice and after:
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
3 Nephi 12: 48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

- Seems like there are various levels of Gods
- D&C 132:22 : 22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives,
24 :This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

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BroJones
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

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He uses the word reincarnation (he is also addressing a non latter day saint audience) synonymously with a cycle of death, resurrection and rebirth and not in the usual sense that we in Western society define the word. Dewey’s use of the word reincarnation does not mean being reborn as another species.
Fine, let's use the word "reincarnation" in the restricted sense of a human (child of God) spirit leaving one body (death) and then being placed into another body (sometime before birth or at birth). No other species involved at all.

Defining it that way - is MMP the same as "reincarnation" then? I'm trying to understand what you guys mean.

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SpeedRacer
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by SpeedRacer »

MMP is in the Lectures on Faith, and therefore in the DS stuff.
We ask, then, where is the prototype? or where is the saved being? We conclude as to the answer of this question there will be no dispute among those who believe the bible, that it is Christ: all will agree in this that he is the prototype or standard of salvation, or in other words, that he is a saved being. And if we should continue our interrogation, and ask how it is that he is saved, the answer would be, because he is a just and holy being; and if he were any thing different from what he is he would not be saved; for his salvation depends on his being precisely what he is and nothing else;
http://mormonbeliefs.com/lectures_on_fa ... %20SEVENTH
First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary they should understand the character and being of God; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I had the trump of an archangel; I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, elder Rigdon!) Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it.

Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves--to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done--by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.
http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm

This is how Christ is exactly what he is and nothing else, he is moving from grace to grace. The Father did it, so did Christ. If you want to be saved, you must be exactly like Christ and nothing else.

DS reviewed this in his Seventh lecture and alluded to it in his 9th lecture when talking about people who could be trusted.

This has been around long before DS though as JS had it in his material. You can also find it in Alma 13 and Abraham 3-4.

I used to have the same sentiments about "that sucks" but then you study it out, and the spirit enlightens your mind, and then you find the eternities and the justice of God is now explained just a little bit better.

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Obrien
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

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BroJones wrote:
He uses the word reincarnation (he is also addressing a non latter day saint audience) synonymously with a cycle of death, resurrection and rebirth and not in the usual sense that we in Western society define the word. Dewey’s use of the word reincarnation does not mean being reborn as another species.
Fine, let's use the word "reincarnation" in the restricted sense of a human (child of God) spirit leaving one body (death) and then being placed into another body (sometime before birth or at birth). No other species involved at all.

Defining it that way - is MMP the same as "reincarnation" then? I'm trying to understand what you guys mean.
I don't understand it at all, either, However, you wrote the the FOUR MOST IMPORTANT WORDS a seeking person can have. That is a rare mindset, Brother, in our modern world, especially on a forum. Answers will come, when you are prepared for them. See how you're already diffusing the baggage of the word reincarnation and continuing to question? That is good. Gold star for you today.

janderich
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by janderich »

Let me give a list of thoughts on the matter in hopes of others considering the same:

Progression: We know that there is progression after this life, but how is it to occur? Can someone progress in a resurrected state? Can they progress while in the presence of God?

And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained for ever, and had no end" (2 Ne 2:22).

We were all in the same state and we would have remained so if not for this mortal probation. Is it possible then that the Garden of Eden is simply our eternal state?

Elder Orson F. Whitney testified that the fall brought progression. He said, "The fall had a two-fold direction — downward, yet forward. It brought man into the world and set his feet upon progression’s highway" (Saturday Night Thoughts, 83).

Perhaps only away from God, cut off from his presence can we learn to progress. Perhaps only in mortality is any real growth possible.

Resurrection: Isn't there only one resurrection? If there is one, then that leaves no room for more.

Let's read Amulek's words carefully, "Now, behold I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of this mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more: their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption" (Alma 11:45).

Now Brigham Young, "It is just so with matter. Take, for instance, a grain of sand. You can not divide it so small that it can not be divided again - it is capable of infinite division. We know nothing about how many times it can be divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals, in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless. To illustrate, take a perfectly ripe kernel of corn ... Well, how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable, and this same infinity is manifest through all the creations of God. We will operate here, in all the ordinances of the house of God which pertain to this side the vail, and those who pass beyond and secure to themselves a resurrection pertaining to the lives will go on and receive more and more, more and more, and will receive one after another until they are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. (JD 15:138)

And again Brigham Young, "We find that there is one eternal resurrection, one eternal change from one state to another from one degree to another..." (The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, p 91)

And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. (Abr 3:26).

Indeed our bodies will be resurrected never to be divided but could it then be that we are added upon again and again? That we take one resurrection wherein spirit and body are reunited and add to it a second, and a third, and so on forever and ever?

Children: Can children be born and reared in an eternal state? Many will say "yes" but they have no idea how. For how can there be baby spirits? Either we know or we do not. Further, birth implies progression and change.

Again Lehi, "And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they know no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin" (2 Ne 2:23).

Perhaps only here in mortality can children be born and reared. Perhaps only here can their bodies progress to the stature of their spirits.

medved
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by medved »

This is a fascinating post for me, personally, and I appreciate you all beginning this conversation. It has been sometime since I have participated in any conversation on this board, but feel inclined to participate in this conversation as my mind has recently been pondering these issues with much ferocity. As of this moment, I am unsettled on the matter, and hope that this conversation continues and introduces light and truth for all of us, on the one hand or the other. With that, please allow me to share some thoughts and questions.

At the outset, I want to thank you all for your thoughts, and highlight a few comments directly; I apologize for citing these without utilizing the “quotation” function, but I do provide attribution with citations.

Quotes One from ajax and aeon:

Joseph again, "and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation"

“Line upon line, precept upon precept is an eternal principle.”

It does not seem that anyone can seriously and scripturally dispute this doctrine. In fact, the scriptures are replete with this concept. What I currently wrestle with, however, and what I pose to you all, is—with respect to this idea of MMP—why does progressing from one small degree to another necessitate that such growth occurs in mortal spheres? Is it not possible, even probable given our understanding of pre-earth existence as intelligences and spirits, that such progression can take place in forms other than mortal? Do we want MMP to be true simply because it comports with our mortal understanding of how progression can work?

Quote Two from Robin Hood:

“I believe that if our life's mission (and we all have one) is cut short through no fault of our own, we are given the option to return and finish. This is a free choice, there is no compulsion involved.”

This is an interesting idea. Does this mean, however, that one’s life mission cannot be related to working with other specific individuals? For example, and draw in such a way as to provide (hopefully) meaning to my otherwise vague and ambiguous opening comment, what if one’s life mission was to teach a specific person or persons the gospel of Jesus Christ? Further, what if one failed to do so prior to the time that said person or persons moved on to the next world? When we come back, as is posited by this comment, do we get a new mission?

Also, how does this idea comport with the following:

“Reincarnation [he also referred to transmigration of the spirit] is a doctrine of the devil.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 105).

And

Alma 40: 11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

Quote Three from TannerG:

“The temple suggests some interesting ideas: The Telestial kingdom is the world in which we now live. We can't get to the Celestial without going through the Terrestrial. Hmmm “

It is fascinating to me that you raise this point as I have just been discussing this very idea with good friends. I wonder, however, does the Temple teach us that the lone and dreary world is in fact “the world in which we now live?” Or does it teach that the lone and dreary world represents the Telestial Kingdom, OR (emphasis mine) the world in which we now live?

Quotes Four from aeon and SpeedRacer:

“Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible" (aeon).

“Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves--to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done--by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.” (SpeedRacer).

These are great quotes. So much depth to them. For me, and similar to a thought expressed above, I wonder why these quotes are interpreted to mean that multiple mortal experiences are required to progress, or why we would need to lay down our lives as the Father and Christ have done? For example, it is clear from scripture and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith that we must become “Saviors on Mount Zion” (see, e.g., History of the Church, 6:183–84; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Jan. 21, 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Wilford Woodruff.). However, I often wonder why this is interpreted to mean that we need to lay down our lives for others and take them up again? For example, the Prophet Joseph Smith also taught as follows on this point:

“But how are they to become saviors on Mount Zion? By building their temples, erecting their baptismal fonts, and going forth and receiving all the ordinances, baptisms, confirmations, washings, anointings, ordinations and sealing powers upon their heads, in behalf of all their progenitors who are dead, and redeem them that they may come forth in the first resurrection and be exalted to thrones of glory with them; and herein is the chain that binds the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, which fulfills the mission of Elijah.” (Id.)

Also, what, if any, impact do the following teachings regarding our being joint-heirs with Christ have on this idea that we need to lay down our lives for others and then take them up again?

D&C 84: 35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’skingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.
39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.
40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive thisoath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

Romans 8:
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Finally, and as posited by Janderich, the scriptures are fairly clear that after death we await resurrection, at which point our spirits and bodies are “never to be divided.” How does this work with the idea of multiple mortal probations?

"Now, behold I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of this mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more: their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption" (Alma 11:45). (Janderich).

Indeed, Jesus Himself taught something very similar when it came to the Three Nephites:

3 Nephi 28: 36-40
36 And now behold, as I spake concerning those whom the Lord hath chosen, yea, even three who were caught up into the heavens, that I knew not whether they were cleansed from mortality to immortality—
37 But behold, since I wrote, I have inquired of the Lord, and he hath made it manifest unto me that there must needs be a change wrought upon their bodies, or else it needs be that they must taste of death;
38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world.
39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.
40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.

It seems that these folks are not going to go another round, despite not laying down their lives and taking them up again.

Again, I appreciate the conversation and look forward to learning more.

Nan
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Nan »

Temple sealing ordinances would have no point then. No reason to be sealed together since you won't be together in a different round. It is a false doctrine.

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SpeedRacer
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by SpeedRacer »

Medved, great analysis.

What a complex subject, that I believe is worth the back and forth and discussion. I know so little about this, just pointing out what I have found that seem to substantiate what I feel is right.

One of the main factors in my logic, spirituality aside, is the justice of God. How is it just to base the rest of eternity on your experience from 2 seconds to 900 years in this life? The average is about 70years right? I just don't see how 70 years of repenting or sinning merits an eternity one way or the other. I could only justify in my mind, multiple rounds demonstrating something that would merit something significant.

When D&C 19 says that Eternal punishment and Endless punishment are called endless and eternal because they are Gods. Eternal life is the kind of life God lives, it does not necessarily mean in one state forever and ever. Now the words to go no more out, that is different. The number of people in that condition is so few, and they are clearly gaining the kingdom of the Father, where the others were getting a lesser kingdom. The ones going into that kingdom are also spending more two thousand years on the earth bringing about the will of the Father, so it is more requisite with the justice of God that they get a great reward. Especially since the only thing they have pain for is the sins of the people. Interesting that that is in line with the atonement. The point is, these are an exception, not the rule. I would hate to involve the exception to the rule into the argument and establish an understanding that would be skewed by a different experience than a mortal probation.

Another thing on resurrection. More from the King Follet:
Joseph Smith, King Follet Discourse wrote:Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/ser ... sermon.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How is it that attaining unto the resurrection of the dead comes by going from exaltation to exaltation? Was Joseph confused, or is there a difference between being resurrected by Christ and attaining to the resurrection of the dead like Christ did?

Christ was Jehovah before he condescended into this mortality correct? How did he become God? Was he God on a provisional basis assuming he would bring to pass the atonement?

That is what is curious about Lehi/Nephi's dream/vision.
1 Nephi 11 wrote:Knowest thou the condescension of God?
Then he gives the account of Christ coming into mortality to Mary. Then he says:
1 Nephi 11 wrote:Look and behold the condescension of God!
Then he mentions the role of the Savior, John the Baptist and the 12. All of whom, more than likely condescended into mortality. But most certainly the Savior. That means Jehovah was on a higher plane, or rung, and descended down to this life in order to bring something to pass. He attained unto the resurrection of the dead.

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ajax
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by ajax »

SpeedRacer wrote:One of the main factors in my logic, spirituality aside, is the justice of God. How is it just to base the rest of eternity on your experience from 2 seconds to 900 years in this life? The average is about 70years right? I just don't see how 70 years of repenting or sinning merits an eternity one way or the other. I could only justify in my mind, multiple rounds demonstrating something that would merit something significant.
Most people have never come close to 70yrs especially in any sort of contemplative way. Rather most mankind has lived "poor, nasty, brutish, and short" lives.

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Obrien
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Obrien »

Ajax - you sound like an economist.

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ajax
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by ajax »

Obrien wrote:Ajax - you sound like an economist.
BA in Economics, Cal State University, Sacramento. Of course that means nothing. I didn't really learn anything until after college.

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Obrien
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Obrien »

So, you're a typical product of the "Education" system (started learning things after you got your credentials)? We are scarily similar, except I was born in Texas and left.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by jwharton »

Disclaimer:
I doubt my understanding of the nature of "eternal lives" is what would pass for the MMP doctrine currently being fashioned into a distinct dogma. I am still unclear what distinguishes it from reincarnation and even less clear how the mechanics of it works. I am not in association with anyone involved in those circles so I am more or less an "outsider" where it is concerned. I don't read Denver Snuffer or anyone else promoting this belief. So, I'm not saying I agree or disagree.

The part I want to add is I don't think we need to coin new semantics to reveal truths in. I believe we just need to better understand the semantics we already have. For example, we have the terms "life", "death", "birth", "resurrection", etc. We also have different levels or planes wherein these terms can be applied. We have physical "life" and spiritual "life", for example.

That being the case, couldn't we also talk in terms of "physical resurrection" and "spiritual resurrection"?

We can also look at the spheres the terms are applied within. There is the individual sphere and the societal sphere, which God often speaks of as if an individual but which is a covenant based collective.

If these distinctions can be made then when we talk about the resurrection we can take care to delineate whether it is physical or spiritual resurrection being talked about and how individual and societal spheres are impacted.

So far, what I am used to hearing is no delineation whatever when the term "resurrection" is used. We speak of it in a monolithic sense that it doesn't also have different levels or planes of realization just as "life", "birth" and "death" do. I believe this has crippled our ability to come to terms with what resurrection actually is and how and where it fits into the overall eternal scheme of things.

My hope is to encourage people to appreciate and more fully understand the terms we have been given as they are sufficient.

briznian
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by briznian »

Nan wrote:Temple sealing ordinances would have no point then. No reason to be sealed together since you won't be together in a different round. It is a false doctrine.

They could still mean something...just not what you think.

For example, it could be a means of you having your spouse in the next round. Or it could still be a symbol of what you are trying to attain.


Just spit balling...

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azalea.rubicon
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by azalea.rubicon »

I wonder if the Pre-existence is part of that multiple eternal lives and another probationary state. If Lucifer was a murderer from the beginning as quoted in some version in the Bible along side the King of Tyre (sorry not a scripturian) then it would only mean that he's lived another life where he committed some unspeakable crimes and may have always been a rebellious being.

minorityofone
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by minorityofone »

The truth is that a soul is a being of glory. Picture your soul as a sphere of light. (Kind of like so many people see in NDEs) this sphere can be small or large or different colors depending upon the age, experience, and glory of the soul. When this soul incarnates it takes A PORTION of it's light, or itself and takes that portion and inhabits a body. That being as a mortal can gain light or lose it, if it becomes a son or daughter of perdition that means the light has been extinguished and the body or lower elements have taken complete control. There can be no forgiveness because the light is completely extinguished. BUT that does not mean the soul is dead. The soul could have only incarnated with 50 percent of it's light, and therefore still remains 50 percent in tact, and would be smart to pick a much easier body to go to next time. Jesus and other beings who are glorified to a great degree only need to bring the smallest sliver of light into a body but often bring a lot to fulfill great missions.
A soul can die but it would usually take multiple lifetimes. Each person reading this has a soul, which can be called the higher self, or I am presence, or in Islam it was called a Jin. Why has no one mentioned Buddhism yet? Buddhism in it's original form was the fulness of the gospel. Sidhartha was indeed an enlightened being who achieved Christhood, or became a Buddha. Jesus was the highest Christ or "Krishna" that has incarnated and atoned for mankind. The performance of atonements did not begin not end with Jesus though.
If you take the LDS lens off of the bible and read with the spirit mutiple lives is taught all over the place. Jesus and Adam came from the same soul. Read Corinthians 15 and pray for interpretation by the Spirit. Christ was the "second Adam"
Adam fell and caused all of the sin and pain to happen on this earth, knowing he would come back to fulfill the karma and take all of that sin and pain upon himself to lift mankind from the fall. I know this might sound like nonsense but if you can see the whole plan it is beautiful.

jwharton
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by jwharton »

azalea.rubicon wrote:I wonder if the Pre-existence is part of that multiple eternal lives and another probationary state. If Lucifer was a murderer from the beginning as quoted in some version in the Bible along side the King of Tyre (sorry not a scripturian) then it would only mean that he's lived another life where he committed some unspeakable crimes and may have always been a rebellious being.
You may want to look at the thread discussing what it means to be born as a spirit.
In that thread I talk about how we can see ourselves in exactly the same way we were in the pre-existence.
This view opens up when you consider that when we are baptized and given the gift of the Holy Ghost, and are thus spiritually born, that this is the exact same manner it happened in back then and that this also is what needs to happen each cycle of creation we participate in.

Due to you being spiritually born-again, you are in that sense in a first-estate that lays the foundation for your second-estate in the "world to come".

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Desert Roses
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Desert Roses »

SpeedRacer wrote:MMP is in the Lectures on Faith, and therefore in the DS stuff.
We ask, then, where is the prototype? or where is the saved being? We conclude as to the answer of this question there will be no dispute among those who believe the bible, that it is Christ: all will agree in this that he is the prototype or standard of salvation, or in other words, that he is a saved being. And if we should continue our interrogation, and ask how it is that he is saved, the answer would be, because he is a just and holy being; and if he were any thing different from what he is he would not be saved; for his salvation depends on his being precisely what he is and nothing else;
http://mormonbeliefs.com/lectures_on_fa ... %20SEVENTH
First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary they should understand the character and being of God; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I had the trump of an archangel; I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, elder Rigdon!) Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it.

Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves--to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done--by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.
http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm

This is how Christ is exactly what he is and nothing else, he is moving from grace to grace. The Father did it, so did Christ. If you want to be saved, you must be exactly like Christ and nothing else.

DS reviewed this in his Seventh lecture and alluded to it in his 9th lecture when talking about people who could be trusted.

This has been around long before DS though as JS had it in his material. You can also find it in Alma 13 and Abraham 3-4.

I used to have the same sentiments about "that sucks" but then you study it out, and the spirit enlightens your mind, and then you find the eternities and the justice of God is now explained just a little bit better.
I don't equate moving from "grace to grace" or continuing to grow and learn as anything like "mortal probation". "Mortal probation" implies, at least to me, a forgetting of our past life (most NDE's are clear that this life is remembered clearly in the next, as it seems to be in the resurrection, at least judging by Christ's appearances post-resurrection), along with the possibility of falling from grace and damning ourselves. Bruce R. McConkie taught that if we leave this life faithful, if we have kept our covenants to the best of our ability, that when we rise in the resurrection, although we may still have lessons to learn, we will not be subject to temptation, we will be ensured (no doubt) of our eventual complete perfection/exaltation, and we will have overcome mortality. While I agree that in the resurrection, there will still be lessons to learn, and much of moving from "grace to grace" as we discover how to manage/control/command the universe and elements, we will NOT be mortal as we think of mortal. We will not have to die again, we will keep the same body as we have when resurrected, and we will not lose memory--in fact we will probably regain memory of pre-mortal life. I think it is an incredible stretch to call this, as described by BY and many others another "mortal probation."

minorityofone
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by minorityofone »

Desert blossom

That is correct that Bruce mcconkie taught that. I believe he taught reincarnation as one of the heresies but maybe I am mistaken. But what did Sidhartha teach? What does Jesus teach today? Do they teach the same thing as a guy named Bruce taught?
You do bring up a good question. I would love to hear everyone's ideas on how ressurection fits together with multiple lives. What does resurrection mean?

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