Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

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Original_Intent
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Original_Intent »

My thoughts have always been along these lines...

What if when we are brought before the "prejudgement" to be assigned either paradise or spirit prison before the final resurrection, and we say " But I would have lived a better life if I had had more wealth and didn't have to struggle to make a living my entire life." or "I would have been better if I hadn't been born into wealth and been raised to think I was better than everyone else." etc. etc. And I also think of how when we overcome a sin, I have always been taught it isn't to show God (He already knew) it is to show ourselves what we are made of. I believe in both the justice and mercy of God. Now I don't know that we will have any such uncertainties, but if we did, I can't comprehend a just, merciful God that would not allow us to prove ourselves in every possible circumstance. But it may also be that we simply have enough self-awareness that there will be no "what if" in our minds, we will know, perhaps, that another attempt with different circumstances would just bring more condemnation upon us.

Regardless, I believe the scripture "This life is the time to prepare to meet God. We can't eat, drink, and be merry with the assurance that we will be given another try - because if we choose that path we merely prove that given the opportunity we would endlessly procrastinate the day of our repentance.

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sandman45
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

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ajax wrote: February 11th, 2015, 11:45 am This is what I currently think, subject to change (as always):

The idea that this is a one-off probation for all eternity makes reason stare. We have existed for a very long time and will exist for a very long time. Perhaps there are multiple rounds wherein there is work to be done.

Joseph stated in his KF discourse, "God himself was once as we are now...and that He was once a man like us"

If this was the case, and then He later as a God condescended to save us, wouldn't that make at least two mortalities for God? At least one as a man like all of us to become like God and then one as a condescended God.

Jesus also stated He did only what He saw His Father do, that is to lay down his body and take it up again. So the Father is a saviour, the Son is a saviour, and they invite us to be as them, to do what they do, to enter their order, which is the order of the Son of God, the order of saviours. This may be part of our story in a distant eternity.

Joseph again, "and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation"

I think this takes more than just one go around, with all the inequities, injustice, shortened lives etc. I don't think we magically become as God in the afterlife just because.

This is not to downplay the significance of THIS mortality. I think they all intensely matter and have ramifications on future events. Thus the injunction not to procrastinate the day of repentance. The time to repent is always now.
Well said.. and I wish the like button was here so i could LIKE!!

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Rose Garden
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

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You can actually like something without hitting a button..... ;)
Last edited by Rose Garden on March 6th, 2017, 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Alaris
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Alaris »

sandman45 wrote: March 6th, 2017, 1:08 pm
ajax wrote: February 11th, 2015, 11:45 am This is what I currently think, subject to change (as always):

The idea that this is a one-off probation for all eternity makes reason stare. We have existed for a very long time and will exist for a very long time. Perhaps there are multiple rounds wherein there is work to be done.

Joseph stated in his KF discourse, "God himself was once as we are now...and that He was once a man like us"

If this was the case, and then He later as a God condescended to save us, wouldn't that make at least two mortalities for God? At least one as a man like all of us to become like God and then one as a condescended God.

Jesus also stated He did only what He saw His Father do, that is to lay down his body and take it up again. So the Father is a saviour, the Son is a saviour, and they invite us to be as them, to do what they do, to enter their order, which is the order of the Son of God, the order of saviours. This may be part of our story in a distant eternity.

Joseph again, "and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation"

I think this takes more than just one go around, with all the inequities, injustice, shortened lives etc. I don't think we magically become as God in the afterlife just because.

This is not to downplay the significance of THIS mortality. I think they all intensely matter and have ramifications on future events. Thus the injunction not to procrastinate the day of repentance. The time to repent is always now.
Well said.. and I wish the like button was here so i could LIKE!!
I felt the same way. In fact I had to double check that I didn't write that post because I say nearly the same things about MMP.

Great comments... I'm glad I resurrected this thread. See what I did there? O:-)

If Jesus utilizes the same plan to go from one small capacity to a great one...to exaltation to exaltation... From grace to grace... Then it stands to reason that you are who you are today due to a function of time and light (obedience, seeking, receiving, etc.)

Some receive light faster than others... That's why I believe the principle of the first born losing inheritence repeats like crazy in the scriptures.

I think MMP is difficult for many to accept because it scares them. Eternal progression is a much longer road that Sunday school implies and that is hard to accept at first... Well until your studies and light bring you to that point where you know that there must be MMP in some form. Once you open your heart to that idea then these concepts are easier.

Edit: baptisms for the dead take on a new light. Baptism is the gate. How can the gate take place after this life where no labor can be performed? There is no body for improvement. Unless... Accepting a baptism simply means you want to continue on. Then the symbolism of the baptism--death burial and resurrection take on a new layer of meaning..... Until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. I'm paraphrasing the king follet but the ability to dwell in burnings to me means you've finally gained enough light to dwell in a place where it is so bright and hot that sub celestial beings would be vaporized.

I probably shouldn't post while having the flu but I am not on any meds!

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Robin Hood
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Robin Hood »

It is clear from the temple endowment ceremony that progression is taken in steps.
We clearly make the journey from the telestial to the terrestrial and then on to the celestial.

But I would like to expand the MMP subject slightly to include animals.
Is it possible that the progression we speak of included a time when we were non-human?

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Elizabeth
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Elizabeth »

NO.
Robin Hood wrote: March 7th, 2017, 6:30 am Is it possible that the progression we speak of included a time when we were non-human?

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Robin Hood
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Robin Hood »

Elizabeth wrote: March 7th, 2017, 6:40 am NO.
Robin Hood wrote: March 7th, 2017, 6:30 am Is it possible that the progression we speak of included a time when we were non-human?
What I mean by this is that there may have been a time when the intelligence from which we have sprung was a fly.
Has it ever occurred to you what the next life will be like if all of the billions of flies that have ever lived are resurrected.... as flies?
But if a fly can progress to incarnate as another life form and the intelligence gain more experience and so on, well, why not?
It would certainly solve the resurrected fly soup problem.

And then there's the billions of bacteria.......

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Alaris
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

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I used to wonder about the spirits of insects... My friend and I discussed this years ago and settled on them being part of the thorns and thistles. The temple videos show insects....I have a hard time envisioning a Terrestrial sphere that has friendly mosquitos and black widows :ymsick:

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Silver Pie
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Silver Pie »

This makes sense. Line upon line, in different rounds. In fact, parts of Alma 13 only make sense if there was another mortal probation before this world was created. How else could people have proved faithful enough to God to have special callings here? (I forget the exact wording of the verses. I know one says the foreknowledge of God, which could be argued that God knows what we will do before we do it, but then it goes on as if that foreknowledge was based upon faith and repentance before this life.)
ajax wrote: February 11th, 2015, 11:45 am This is what I currently think, subject to change (as always):

The idea that this is a one-off probation for all eternity makes reason stare. We have existed for a very long time and will exist for a very long time. Perhaps there are multiple rounds wherein there is work to be done.

Joseph stated in his KF discourse, "God himself was once as we are now...and that He was once a man like us"

If this was the case, and then He later as a God condescended to save us, wouldn't that make at least two mortalities for God? At least one as a man like all of us to become like God and then one as a condescended God.

Jesus also stated He did only what He saw His Father do, that is to lay down his body and take it up again. So the Father is a saviour, the Son is a saviour, and they invite us to be as them, to do what they do, to enter their order, which is the order of the Son of God, the order of saviours. This may be part of our story in a distant eternity.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Silver Pie »

This makes sense to me. The idea of coming back again and again in this earth's life seems to negate the need for a Savior, but having lived on another planet at another time seems to be plausible.
Juliet wrote: March 6th, 2017, 8:33 am I do not know enough to say multiple lives is not true. When my dad was a kid, he told his mom that before you live here, you live on amother Planet, and then you live on another, and another. I trust kids when they say stuff like that because the veil is thinner for them.

I have wondered that sometimes. Mostly when I was very, very young and thought of things so deep, like was I right now (then) somewhere else at a different time in my life? God created us. Did we spring forth as full blown spirits? Or did we have to go from insect intelligence to mammal intelligence to human intelligence over the course of many rounds of probation on many worlds? I suppose only God could answer those questions for us.
Robin Hood wrote: March 7th, 2017, 6:30 am But I would like to expand the MMP subject slightly to include animals.
Is it possible that the progression we speak of included a time when we were non-human?

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Silver Pie
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Silver Pie »

I've never heard of this before. Where did you get it?
Robin Hood wrote: March 6th, 2017, 12:38 am . . . Elisa R Snow . . . when she says he [Joseph Smith] taught her about reincarnation.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

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alaris wrote: March 6th, 2017, 12:17 am :-w t
janderich wrote: February 25th, 2015, 6:24 am
inho wrote:Can one read that quote from BY without understanding it in the context of BY's Adam-God teachings?
Can one believe in MMP without believing in A-G?

(Also, a side issue in that quote (and quotes similar to that) is the old question whether Jesus is the Savior of this Earth only or does the atonement cover several earths/worlds. Scriptures tell us that at least Jesus is the Creator of many worlds. Since this quote only uses the word 'world', I guess on can understand it to mean whole of the observable universe.)
No doubt people can take BY teachings and spin them many ways, as has been done.

BY believed that each world had a new Christ. That of course does not negate the possibility that our same Savior helped create many worlds before this one. However, I believe Christ, the anointed one, to be a title. Yes "Christ" created every earth but it was not the same individual. Also, the notion that Jesus is the savior of all worlds ever created, and that he appeared on this earth because it was the most wicked/righteous is sheer folly. Of billions of worlds we are the most righteous? Just like people use to believe that this world was the center of the universe.
Christ has many worlds in His dominion. If Mmp is real than couldn't the same being live on each world and suffer, atone, and overcome for each of His creations? Now that I have opened my mind to this idea it seems to increase His grandier if true.
I believe there will come a time when we will die no more, when our spirit and our body will be united never to separated again. Joseph Smith said:
“Salvation is nothing more nor less than to triumph over all our enemies and put them under our feet. And when we have power to put all enemies under our feet in this world, and a knowledge to triumph over all evil spirits in the world to come, then we are saved, as in the case of Jesus, who was to reign until He had put all enemies under His feet, and the last enemy was death (see 1 Corinthians 15:25–26) HC 5:387-388
We will continue to die until we have put death under our feet.

Jesus Christ reached this state when he accomplished the atonement. His spirit forever united with his body in perfect wholeness, never to be divided, "And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son...and they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God...Yea even so he shall be led crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men. (Mosiah 15:2-5, 7-8) Having subjected the flesh to the spirit, even unto death, Christ became at one. I do not believe such a being will have to suffer again, perish the thought. No, the Son treads in the tracks of his Father. Where the Father tread, the Son follows to a more exaulted sphere.

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Alaris
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

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janderich wrote: March 8th, 2017, 6:42 am
alaris wrote: March 6th, 2017, 12:17 am :-w t
janderich wrote: February 25th, 2015, 6:24 am
inho wrote:Can one read that quote from BY without understanding it in the context of BY's Adam-God teachings?
Can one believe in MMP without believing in A-G?

(Also, a side issue in that quote (and quotes similar to that) is the old question whether Jesus is the Savior of this Earth only or does the atonement cover several earths/worlds. Scriptures tell us that at least Jesus is the Creator of many worlds. Since this quote only uses the word 'world', I guess on can understand it to mean whole of the observable universe.)
No doubt people can take BY teachings and spin them many ways, as has been done.

BY believed that each world had a new Christ. That of course does not negate the possibility that our same Savior helped create many worlds before this one. However, I believe Christ, the anointed one, to be a title. Yes "Christ" created every earth but it was not the same individual. Also, the notion that Jesus is the savior of all worlds ever created, and that he appeared on this earth because it was the most wicked/righteous is sheer folly. Of billions of worlds we are the most righteous? Just like people use to believe that this world was the center of the universe.
Christ has many worlds in His dominion. If Mmp is real than couldn't the same being live on each world and suffer, atone, and overcome for each of His creations? Now that I have opened my mind to this idea it seems to increase His grandier if true.
I believe there will come a time when we will die no more, when our spirit and our body will be united never to separated again. Joseph Smith said:
“Salvation is nothing more nor less than to triumph over all our enemies and put them under our feet. And when we have power to put all enemies under our feet in this world, and a knowledge to triumph over all evil spirits in the world to come, then we are saved, as in the case of Jesus, who was to reign until He had put all enemies under His feet, and the last enemy was death (see 1 Corinthians 15:25–26) HC 5:387-388
We will continue to die until we have put death under our feet.

Jesus Christ reached this state when he accomplished the atonement. His spirit forever united with his body in perfect wholeness, never to be divided, "And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son...and they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God...Yea even so he shall be led crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men. (Mosiah 15:2-5, 7-8) Having subjected the flesh to the spirit, even unto death, Christ became at one. I do not believe such a being will have to suffer again, perish the thought. No, the Son treads in the tracks of his Father. Where the Father tread, the Son follows to a more exaulted sphere.
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Dlight
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Dlight »

This is an interesting idea and one that I've considered a lot. I'd be open to either outcome.

The problem with the pro argument is that it assumes multiple mortal probations would actually result in any change of behavior at all. Perhaps we would just fall short in the same or different ways over and over again.

Another point to consider is that when we die and have the veil removed, at some point we will undoubtedly have a perfect recollection of all our guilt, and probably remember more about who we were before this life and all we've been taught for presumably millions of years. My guess is that this will lead to enormous insight and personal understanding and growth regardless of how this life turned out.

In the end it will ask come down to which law we can actually abide. I don't think anyone that wants to abide all of God's laws won't be able to, because the desire to abide God's laws must be developed in this life. My guess is that everyone who truly wants to abide these laws will be with God, but that many people will be fine and more comfortable abiding lower laws.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

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Dlight wrote: March 8th, 2017, 10:18 am This is an interesting idea and one that I've considered a lot. I'd be open to either outcome.

The problem with the pro argument is that it assumes multiple mortal probations would actually result in any change of behavior at all. Perhaps we would just fall short in the same or different ways over and over again.

Another point to consider is that when we die and have the veil removed, at some point we will undoubtedly have a perfect recollection of all our guilt, and probably remember more about who we were before this life and all we've been taught for presumably millions of years. My guess is that this will lead to enormous insight and personal understanding and growth regardless of how this life turned out.

In the end it will ask come down to which law we can actually abide. I don't think anyone that wants to abide all of God's laws won't be able to, because the desire to abide God's laws must be developed in this life. My guess is that everyone who truly wants to abide these laws will be with God, but that many people will be fine and more comfortable abiding lower laws.
But consider, we in the LDS church have been taught since we were children that real personal growth in certain areas can only happen when we are separated from God. Sure when our understanding returns after this life we will of course be enlightened and abide a higher law. But at some level when we know God is there, we cannot further progress. I have always liked how David O. McKay said it, "Day by day, hour by hour, man builds the character that will determine his place and standing among his associates throughout the ages. … More important than riches, more enduring than fame, more precious than happiness is the possession of a noble character. Truly it has been said that the grand aim of man’s creation is the development of a grand character, and grand character is by its very nature the product of a probationary discipline” (“Man’s Soul Is As Endless As Time,” Instructor, Jan. 1960, 1–2). Character can only be developed as part of a probationary discipline and in no other way.

What then is the path? The Lord said, "First, spiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work - speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have no end neither beginning..." Referring to this scripture Parley P. Pratt once said, "We were firstly, spiritual, then fell under the curse, then take a higher temporal degree, and finally a higher spiritual degree" (General Conference April 6, 1850 JHCJCCS April 6, 1850 p. 1-2). Trials and challenges on this earth will stretch us a cause us to grow or to retrogress. As I currently see it there are really only two ends. Give up on the gospel plan despite knowing it in full (son of perdition, sometimes referred to as the 1/3 who followed Satan), or continue until we have conquered death. I don't think there is an option to sit satisfied where we are at. Perhaps we will remain in a simmilar condition for a very very long time but ultimately we will change.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

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When a Second Estate Being comes down here, they come for two things: to get a body, and to choose whom they will serve - the light or the darkness. They get but one life!

Now their are some who were so valiant from the First Estate, that many of them come down and die before the age of account ability, are aborted but take breathe (as some hold this sacred, though I think what counts is far more diverse then most imagine), and get to move on (forward). Like a pass jail card in a Monopoly Game. However, if they prove well they will go around the board and their time will come when they land back here. And yes, it feels like jail! The world hates you just because of who you are!

Then there are the children of the Evil One. They do get bodies, in spite of what some have said! They are here to get a body, but they are not here to choose, as they have already chosen. For most of them their path ends here, though 5 are untranslated to be allowed into the creations that immediately follow (flow out of) this creation. They become the serpents in those gardens. As Sons of Perdition, they are all eventually cast out into Outer Darkness.

The vast majority of men, being hedonist, embracing the natural man, will rise and remain here, in a world like this one. Far far less women commit the deeds needed to be sent to hell with the men.

So who are these Beings I said that will come around the board and come again into a realm like this world? They are the "Elect". Those who passed this Hell and the Millennial world to come, and keep their covenants, may come again if they choose to continue down the Eternal Path. They are they who are willing to place everything upon the altar, to serve G_d the Father and His Son. They come down here (for Men) they come nine times... three times in three creations, just as JS had taught in the Temple Allegory (the Endowment). Count the fig leaves and think of the knocking and 4th sign.

Why do these Fourth Estate Beings come here? They come to learn to overcome the world. To perfect their eternal natures until the few very few of them pass, (of the men) becoming Messiahs. G_d beget one Son per creation! That is how the G_ds procreate. For a man, he must make the Eternal Sacrifice for his posterity, by the shedding of his own blood.

There is NO such thing as Multiple Mortal Probations, as in you get to keep trying to make it. There is a set path, and those who come down here again, are here as the servants of G_d! They come into a world where G_d cannot personally come, and they do his bidding! If not after coming here, if they say no they they do not want to do this or that, or they have forgotten all and even which team they are on, or they try to run away and hide from G_d... G_d makes it clear that they will fulfill their oaths and covenants or He will take them out of this life, for they serve no purpose otherwise of being here.

This Doctrine was taught by Joseph Smith... it is called "Eternal Lives"! There is a thread I started by that name, years ago, if your interested in knowing more.

Shalom

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Red
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Red »

response
Dlight wrote: March 8th, 2017, 10:18 am This is an interesting idea and one that I've considered a lot. I'd be open to either outcome.

The problem with the pro argument is that it assumes multiple mortal probations would actually result in any change of behavior at all. Perhaps we would just fall short in the same or different ways over and over again.
exactly. You can't learn from something you can't recall.
Another point to consider is that when we die and have the veil removed, at some point we will undoubtedly have a perfect recollection of all our guilt, and probably remember more about who we were before this life and all we've been taught for presumably millions of years. My guess is that this will lead to enormous insight and personal understanding and growth regardless of how this life turned out.

In the end it will ask come down to which law we can actually abide. I don't think anyone that wants to abide all of God's laws won't be able to, because the desire to abide God's laws must be developed in this life. My guess is that everyone who truly wants to abide these laws will be with God, but that many people will be fine and more comfortable abiding lower laws.

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Red
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

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How horrible would it be to run through the never-ending Choose Your Own Adventure only to never quite remember the bad choices that put you in the bad ending and then have to keep starting over to re-guess? That's a Sisyphean nightmare that seems to negate the purpose of the Atonement. I prefer to believe that God is incredibly merciful so He will forgive me and I don't have to try to figure it out again in another mortality. Besides, I really like my husband. I don't want to start over with someone else.

DRC53
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by DRC53 »

Joseph Fielding Smith said "Christ was born a babe at Bethlehem. That is where he got his body, and the only physical body, or body of flesh and bones, that he ever had or ever will have. ... The great works accomplished by our Redeemer before he was born, including the creation of worlds at the command of his Father, were accomplished accomplished by him in his spirit existence."

So, that nixes the idea that Christ lived multiple mortal lives. I doubt then that anyone else lives multiple mortal lives. The idea has no scriptural foundation. In fact, I can see how lucifer would entice people to believe such an idea. Meaning, if I believe that I will have multiple opportunities at mortality, I might choose to sin all I want in this life and then be more serious in another life down the road. Don't get lost looking beyond the mark.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by Matchmaker »

DRC53 wrote: March 22nd, 2017, 11:24 pm Joseph Fielding Smith said "Christ was born a babe at Bethlehem. That is where he got his body, and the only physical body, or body of flesh and bones, that he ever had or ever will have. ... The great works accomplished by our Redeemer before he was born, including the creation of worlds at the command of his Father, were accomplished accomplished by him in his spirit existence."

So, that nixes the idea that Christ lived multiple mortal lives. I doubt then that anyone else lives multiple mortal lives. The idea has no scriptural foundation. In fact, I can see how lucifer would entice people to believe such an idea. Meaning, if I believe that I will have multiple opportunities at mortality, I might choose to sin all I want in this life and then be more serious in another life down the road. Don't get lost looking beyond the mark.
Please share where you found the Joseph Fielding Smith quote about Christ getting his one body.

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Elizabeth
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

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Matchmaker wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 4:39 am
Please share where you found the Joseph Fielding Smith quote about Christ getting his one body.

janderich
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by janderich »

Elizabeth wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 6:03 am
Matchmaker wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 4:39 am
Please share where you found the Joseph Fielding Smith quote about Christ getting his one body.
I checked it, it's in Doctrines of Salvation 1:18, also quoted in We Believe: Doctrines and Principles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints p. 329. Here is a link: https://books.google.com/books?id=-FToi ... 22&f=false However, just as I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God I know that MMP is a true doctrine. I do not know all the in's and out's and much is hidden, but it tastes good, it has become delicious to my soul and I know truth when I have had time to ponder over it.

janderich
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by janderich »

Red wrote: March 22nd, 2017, 10:39 pmHow horrible would it be to run through the never-ending Choose Your Own Adventure only to never quite remember the bad choices that put you in the bad ending and then have to keep starting over to re-guess? That's a Sisyphean nightmare that seems to negate the purpose of the Atonement. I prefer to believe that God is incredibly merciful so He will forgive me and I don't have to try to figure it out again in another mortality. Besides, I really like my husband. I don't want to start over with someone else.
The concept of multiple probations is not an endless nightmare nor does it negate the purpose of the atonement.

First, there is an end. It comes when we have put that last great enemy, death, under our feet.

Second, there is a purpose. We do not pointlessly repeat, we begin where we left off. We go from one capacity to another learning and growing.

Third, MMP does not negate the atonement. We all need the atonement, including when we repent and when we are resurrected.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ...Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again" (John 3:3-7)

I invite you to more fully consider this doctrine taught by the Savior, Joseph, Brigham, and other early apostles of this dispensation.

DRC53
captain of 100
Posts: 103

Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by DRC53 »

janderich wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 6:06 am
Elizabeth wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 6:03 am
Matchmaker wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 4:39 am
Please share where you found the Joseph Fielding Smith quote about Christ getting his one body.
I checked it, it's in Doctrines of Salvation 1:18, also quoted in We Believe: Doctrines and Principles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints p. 329. Here is a link: https://books.google.com/books?id=-FToi ... 22&f=false However, just as I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God I know that MMP is a true doctrine. I do not know all the in's and out's and much is hidden, but it tastes good, it has become delicious to my soul and I know truth when I have had time to ponder over it.
Thank you for posting the source for the Joseph Fielding Smith quote!

I understand that that's how you feel, but it's directly contrary to what a modern day prophet taught us. It's also contrary to multiple scriptures that plainly teach that this life is our day of probation, our time to prepare to meet God. No matter how I feel about something, if it is inconsistent with the prophet and scripture, than it is incorrect.

DRC53
captain of 100
Posts: 103

Re: Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

Post by DRC53 »

janderich wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 6:30 am
Red wrote: March 22nd, 2017, 10:39 pmHow horrible would it be to run through the never-ending Choose Your Own Adventure only to never quite remember the bad choices that put you in the bad ending and then have to keep starting over to re-guess? That's a Sisyphean nightmare that seems to negate the purpose of the Atonement. I prefer to believe that God is incredibly merciful so He will forgive me and I don't have to try to figure it out again in another mortality. Besides, I really like my husband. I don't want to start over with someone else.
The concept of multiple probations is not an endless nightmare nor does it negate the purpose of the atonement.

First, there is an end. It comes when we have put that last great enemy, death, under our feet.

Second, there is a purpose. We do not pointlessly repeat, we begin where we left off. We go from one capacity to another learning and growing.

Third, MMP does not negate the atonement. We all need the atonement, including when we repent and when we are resurrected.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ...Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again" (John 3:3-7)

I invite you to more fully consider this doctrine taught by the Savior, Joseph, Brigham, and other early apostles of this dispensation.
Jesus was not teaching anything about multiple mortal lives in the John 3:3-7 scriptures. He clearly said that He was referring to being born again through the Spirit, which we're taught means through baptism and the Holy Ghost.

Neither Joseph nor Brigham taught multiple mortal lives. Joseph explicitly stated as referenced at the same citation as the JFS quote, that reincarnation is of the devil.

The closest to what you are talking about would be the Adam God theory. This is what President Kimball had to say:

"We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/11/our- ... g=eng&_r=1

Elder McConkie warned that anyone who believed such a theory didn't deserve to be saved:

"There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.
The devil keeps this heresy alive as a means of obtaining converts to cultism. It is contrary to the whole plan of salvation set forth in the scriptures, and anyone who has read the Book of Moses, and anyone who has received the temple endowment and who yet believes the Adam–God theory does not deserve to be saved.* Those who are so ensnared reject the living prophet and close their ears to the apostles of their day. "We will follow those who went before," they say. And having so determined, they soon are ready to enter polygamous relationships that destroy their souls.
We worship the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost; and Adam is their foremost servant, by whom the peopling of our planet was commenced."

BYU Devotional, June 1, 1980. *This is what McConkie said in the audio recording of this sermon. The print version has subsequently been changed to "has no excuse whatever for being led astray by it."

I found this article which identifies why the Adam God theory is not supported in scripture. It also presents some ideas in an effort to clarify statements Brigham Young, and other early Utah leaders, said on the matter. I'm not necessarily endorsing those explanations, but presenting them for consideration for any who might be interested. The larger point from the article is that the idea that a resurrected being would become mortal again and enter into another probationary state is not supported in the scriptures no matter what quotations might be out there (whether accurately quoted or whether quoted in proper context). http://www.eldenwatson.net/7AdamGod.htm

The larger point is whether we sustain the Prophets, seers, and revelators of our day as the Lord's anointed to lead His Church. It's clear from the link, that anything that Brigham did say was not developed fully, which has led to confusion and misunderstanding.

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