Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

[Desert Roses]

Desert blossom

That is correct that Bruce mcconkie taught that. I believe he taught reincarnation as one of the heresies but maybe I am mistaken. But what did Sidhartha teach? What does Jesus teach today? Do they teach the same thing as a guy named Bruce taught?
You do bring up a good question. I would love to hear everyone's ideas on how ressurection fits together with multiple lives. What does resurrection mean?

I accept Bruce R. McConkie as a prophet and apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. His teaching carries far more weight than Siddhartha. Jesus Christ taught and teaches today through his prophets that he is the resurrection and THE life. NOT a life but THE LIFE. He didn't and never has suggested that we will have any other "mortal " life.

[minorityofone]

Desert blossom

That is correct that Bruce mcconkie taught that. I believe he taught reincarnation as one of the heresies but maybe I am mistaken. But what did Sidhartha teach? What does Jesus teach today? Do they teach the same thing as a guy named Bruce taught?
You do bring up a good question. I would love to hear everyone's ideas on how ressurection fits together with multiple lives. What does resurrection mean?

I accept Bruce R. McConkie as a prophet and apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. His teaching carries far more weight than Siddhartha. Jesus Christ taught and teaches today through his prophets that he is the resurrection and THE life. NOT a life but THE LIFE. He didn't and never has suggested that we will have any other "mortal " life.

Oh but He has. He has taught it to me plainer than anything I have ever read from a book or heard from a pulpit. I will take His word on it above Bruce's. After all Bruce was just flesh and a man that we are not supposed to put our trust in. I have more authority than Bruce did on the subject apparently because he was talking out of his breeches and not by way of revelation. Siddhartha was a greater prophet than any president of the modern LDS church and you can take that to The Lord Almighty and receive a confirmation from Him personally on the matter. Siddhartha was a translated being. After he achieved it people literally thought he was a God and thought to worship him. He taught all of the same principles Jesus did in his ministry. Be very careful who you compare Siddhartha to. For all you know he is from the very same soul as Jesus Christ Himself.

[janderich]

It is wonderful for those who are married to a partner they believe is the one they are meant for eternally. But what of those who do not have this blessing? What of the children when one may perhaps choose another partner for eternity, rather than the other parent? Not all of us entered into a marriage thinking it would be for eternity.

Before the resurrection all these questions will be resolved. Everyone will be put in their right order. As to all the manner and means of individual cases I do not know.


Regarding this subject, Brigham Young in a vision spoke to Joseph Smith who said:

Be sure to tell the people to keep the spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Our Father in Heaven organized the human family, but they are all disorganized and in great confusion. Joseph then showed me the pattern, how they were in the beginning. This I cannot describe, but I saw it, and saw where the priesthood had been taken from the earth and how it must be joined together, so that there would be a perfect chain from Father Adam to his latest posterity." (Beyond the Veil, Vol 3, p 67)

[JohnnyL]

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[azalea.rubicon]

One of the main factors in my logic, spirituality aside, is the justice of God. How is it just to base the rest of eternity on your experience from 2 seconds to 900 years in this life? The average is about 70years right? I just don't see how 70 years of repenting or sinning merits an eternity one way or the other. I could only justify in my mind, multiple rounds demonstrating something that would merit something significant.

Most people have never come close to 70yrs especially in any sort of contemplative way. Rather most mankind has lived "poor, nasty, brutish, and short" lives.

I completely agree with this. We're denying ourselves the opportunity to learn an eternity of knowledge and understanding if mortality is only a one round thing. In our Father's eyes, we're just mere babies just learning to talk, walk and understand so how is possible for us to learn an eternity of knowledge?

[Desert Roses]

Ran across this in my scripture study this morning, which to me, only confirms my knowledge (and gratitude) for the truth about the PLAN:

Mosiah 16:7-13

7 And if Christ had not risen from the dead, or have broken the bands of death that the grave should have no victory, and that death should have no sting, there could have been no resurrection.

8 But there is a resurrection, therefore the grave hath no victory, and the sting of death is swallowed up in Christ.

9 He is the light and the life of the world; yea, a light that is endless, that can never be darkened; yea, and also a life which is endless, that there can be no more death.

10 Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil—

11 If they be good, to the resurrection of aendless life and bhappiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of cendless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation—

12 Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would anot; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent.

13 And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved?

Apparently, as Alma taught as well, THIS LIFE is the life to repent; once we are resurrected, it is eternally too late. And Christ has made possible the resurrection of the dead, the eternal joining of body and spirit so that, as Abinadi taught, "there can be no more death."

[boo]

Good points as always DR . However to some degree it begs the very point in question . The issue is after we die as to the mortal body may we have the opportunity if we wish to return to another mortality to increase our knowledge and experience before the final resurrection takes place ? I know of nothing in the scriptures that says we can not have this opportunity if we wish it. Indeed how can we become like Jesus and do what he did if there is no such opportunity 3 Nephi 27 :21 We could never become perfect and be entitled to sit down with the Fathers unless we offer a similar sacrifice LOF 6 v 7 and 8. I recommend you read the book I mentioned and get your own revelation

[jwharton]

I would love to hear everyone's ideas on how ressurection fits together with multiple lives. What does resurrection mean?

You might start by specifying which kind of resurrection...

Individual physical resurrection?
Societal physical resurrection?

Individual spiritual resurrection?
Societal spiritual resurrection?

Well there you go, you obviously have some wonderful ideas and must not have the same traditional idea of what resurrection is, so let's just talk about the individual ressurection. How does it correlate with our body. What does resurrection mean concerning jwharton and the body you have now?

Ok, so then we need to refer to both my physical and spiritual resurrection it seems.

Perhaps it should be made clear that an individual person can be as follows:

Physically Dead and Spiritually Dead
Physically Alive and Spiritually Dead
Physically Dead and Spiritually Alive
Physically Alive and Spiritually Alive

The (unorthodox?) premise here is that an individual person being Dead or Alive in any distinction doesn't change the fact that some core and crucial aspect of that individual's existence remains persistent. Think of it in terms of the individual themselves (the core fundamental unit of consciousness/intelligence) being the native element that can neither be created nor destroyed.

Viewing it thus, it can follow that individuals themselves (their consciousness/intelligence) are the raw materials from which the "creation" is composed. And, these elements are organized in some manner so as to manifest physical and/or spiritual life.

This point of view further suggests that cosmological symbols used in the creation narrative actually apply to the organization of these individual consciousness units rather than (or in parallel to) the organization of the physical cosmos scientists are concerned about.

For example, Jesus is the "greater light to rule the day" instead of (or in parallel to) it being the sun that our planet orbits.

If you have followed me thus far, I have hopefully succeeded to more clearly define my use of these terms we are all familiar with and put them in a sensible (yet unorthodox) context to draw further conclusions from.

In a nutshell....
When a person goes from a state of being disorganized (dead) to being organized (alive), they have been resurrected.

But, lets break it down to what it means to be physically alive as distinct from spiritually alive with the goal in mind to be able to also distinguish what it means to be physically resurrected as distinct from being spiritually resurrected.

I think we are all pretty clear on what it means to be physically alive. It simply means your consciousness has been clothed with a physical tabernacle that has been organized according to the pattern set fourth in a lineage of DNA that is unique from all others that you have somehow obtained a right to (or that you have successfully invaded and taken captive). Put similarly, it means you are embodied within a physical tabernacle enabling your consciousness/intelligence to function in the physical material plane of existence.

It is less clear to people what it means to be spiritually alive. But, there seems to be a general acceptance that it means you have been separated from God, for one reason or another. This basis is sufficient to continue exploring the particular point of view I am proposing. Further, we can add to this what we actually already know of and consider spiritual birth. This is when a person becomes "born anew" or experiences their "second birth". Scripture also refers to it as when a person receives the "breath of life".

Once a person has been baptized by water the next ordinance they may participate in is the laying on of hands to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost. This is literally signifying of when a person becomes spiritually born or alive. This ordinance gives them the directive "receive ye the Holy Ghost". It is in doing so that a person obtains union with God, the 3rd member of the Godhead we know as the Holy Ghost. Therefore, when a person receives the Holy Ghost, they are no longer separated from God. They pass from a state of spiritual death to a state of spiritual life.

This can also be called spiritual resurrection, which is the resurrection Jesus brought and endeavored to give to the Jews. We see him giving it to the disciples in John 20:22, though perhaps they didn't realize that is what it was at the time. This is also the same thing Adam received when the "breath of life" was breathed into his nostrils in Gen 2:7. This is why Jesus blew in the face of his disciples when he performed that ordinance of laying on of hands and commanded them "receive ye the Holy Ghost". [Edit: In essence, the ordinance of the laying on of hands is also the ordinance of resurrection, spiritual resurrection.]

Side Note: Jesus was telling them something by doing that... We should really consider what that was because this is a basis upon which you can see the resurrected Lord with your own eyes as they eventually did. I believe this was also the substance of Paul's experience and conversion as well because his writings are chuck full of supporting testimony of this particular line of reasoning. Spiritual life is crucial.

So, in essence, spiritual birth takes place as a result of our consciousness/intelligence being able to organize its mind-frame in such a way that the Holy Ghost can and does enter in and take up residence within you as its tabernacle. This is the result of receiving the Word of God into our minds such that at some point we have that "Wow! I see now and I whole-heartedly agree and devote myself to this way of life now!" experience. This is when a person literally comes to life spiritually.

Side Note: I think it is also worth noting that when we are confirmed a member of the church and we receive the Holy Ghost that we become a spirit child of our Heavenly Father and our Heavenly Mother. Everyone thus "living" is a member of the church because this ordinance co-joins them inseparably. Only those "living" (spiritually) are to be members of the church. Therefore, you can literally view the church itself as "the Mother of all Living". This makes what Brigham Young taught about Michael-Adam being the father of our spirits make more sense as this means Eve is the mother of our spirits. So, if we look closely, it should become apparent that Eve is in fact the Church. And, the commandment to Adam and Eve to multiply and replenish the earth can mean in one sense to go fourth and do missionary work and bring about spiritual births. This is also the labor to spiritually resurrect, which is why the latter day work corresponds with Rosh Hashanah and the sounding of the trumpets (think angel Moroni), etc. It is the heralding in of the time of the first resurrection and the impending judgment when the Book of Life shall be written anew for the next cycle [Edit: via temple work to seal and reorganize it all]. This is the work of the Saints of the latter-days who collectively are Adam and Eve, just as we are told to consider ourselves.

So, to the degree that I am manifesting the truth, love, charity, goodness, wholesomeness, etc. of God by way of His Spirit dwelling in me, is the degree to which I am spiritually resurrected in my life right now. Obtaining a glorious resurrection is something that is immediately relevant. The more we understanding and embrace the truth, the greater the power and goodness of God can manifest in and through us. Resurrection, spiritually speaking, should be our current on-going passion right now. It surely is mine.

[brrgilbert]

[ Place Holder for Future Comment ] Insufficient Time at this point.

[azalea.rubicon]

Another thought which occurred to me is sealing. If we are sealed to our families as say, daughters or sons, and we have multiple rounds of lives to live and get sealed to a different parents again, how does that work? Brigham Young once said that when we get to the point where we attempt to comprehend an eternal perspective, our brain shuts down because our mortal mind cannot comprehend something of eternal perspective- I think I'm almost there #-o but what an interesting answers you all have given and enriched my knowledge. Learning is truly beautiful!

[chemish]

The phrase "to go no more out" in the BoM, especially the context the phrase is used in is one of the most obvious implications of MMP. Its not really implied really it's just kind of stated as a fact. Imho. I have wondered about that phrase since I first read the BoM.

[jwharton]

The phrase "to go no more out" in the BoM, especially the context the phrase is used in is one of the most obvious implications of MMP. Its not really implied really it's just kind of stated as a fact. Imho. I have wondered about that phrase since I first read the BoM.

Me too!

I am looking at it as being a point that a soul reaches where it is no longer required to stay in the wheel of reincarnation, so to speak.

Such souls can choose to condescend and return to mortality if they wish, but a point is reached where they are "done", at least where mortality is concerned.

[Obrien]

The truth is that a soul is a being of glory. Picture your soul as a sphere of light. (Kind of like so many people see in NDEs) this sphere can be small or large or different colors depending upon the age, experience, and glory of the soul. When this soul incarnates it takes A PORTION of it's light, or itself and takes that portion and inhabits a body. That being as a mortal can gain light or lose it, if it becomes a son or daughter of perdition that means the light has been extinguished and the body or lower elements have taken complete control. There can be no forgiveness because the light is completely extinguished. BUT that does not mean the soul is dead. The soul could have only incarnated with 50 percent of it's light, and therefore still remains 50 percent in tact, and would be smart to pick a much easier body to go to next time. Jesus and other beings who are glorified to a great degree only need to bring the smallest sliver of light into a body but often bring a lot to fulfill great missions.
A soul can die but it would usually take multiple lifetimes. Each person reading this has a soul, which can be called the higher self, or I am presence, or in Islam it was called a Jin. Why has no one mentioned Buddhism yet? Buddhism in it's original form was the fulness of the gospel. Sidhartha was indeed an enlightened being who achieved Christhood, or became a Buddha. Jesus was the highest Christ or "Krishna" that has incarnated and atoned for mankind. The performance of atonements did not begin not end with Jesus though.
If you take the LDS lens off of the bible and read with the spirit mutiple lives is taught all over the place. Jesus and Adam came from the same soul. Read Corinthians 15 and pray for interpretation by the Spirit. Christ was the "second Adam"
Adam fell and caused all of the sin and pain to happen on this earth, knowing he would come back to fulfill the karma and take all of that sin and pain upon himself to lift mankind from the fall. I know this might sound like nonsense but if you can see the whole plan it is beautiful.

There's a lot to chew on there...do you have any scripture references besides 1 Cor 15 to back this up? I freely admit I do not know all there is to know about the atonement, but I thought it was based on love (Christ's love for us, and all creations love for Christ), not 'karma". Maybe I am getting hung up on the word...

[Elizabeth]

I copied all 17 chapters and read them all. It was interesting at first, I came to see however that it became stranger and stranger so much so that I have now erased the file. There is a reason our remembrances are clouded. Let us be content to do the best we can in mortality to prepare for eternity, and wait for further enlightenment following our mortal trial.

The online book, Eternal Lives, by JJ Dewey is an excellent place to really understand the doctrine of multiple mortal probations.
I invite you to read all 17 chapters of his book.

[AGStacker]

You mean we gotta do all this crap again?

Well you don't remember last time so......

By why do we remember this time is my question.

[larsenb]

My experience and feeling is that when there is conflicting information and data regarding something doctrinal, we simply may not have enough knowledge to force the concept or doctrine, such as MMP/reincarnation, into a strict black-and-white, either/or strait jacket.

The following (probably echoed and already broached on other theads on this topic) is simply my speculation and rumination that some readers may find useful or thought provoking. I’m not settled in my mind that these ideas regarding MMP/reincarnation are completely contrary to the great plan of salvation, though I’m sure others here may think so. Thanks to contributors to this and similar threads and to recent conversations w/Blenox, for prompting this.

Do I believe in MMP/reincarnation? I only see it as possible, something probably constrained by several conditions, if it happens at all. And even if it does, it isn’t part of my actual active belief system.

Did the early Israelites or New Testament Jews have a belief in reincarnation or MMP? Here are some passages that suggest they did (probably quoted in other threads on this topic):

The Idea of Reincarnation as a Possibility Not Foreign to Early Israel and Jews:

• Matthew 16:14
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
• Luke 9:19
19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.
• Mark 8:28
28 And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.

There may be more examples from the Bible and Apocrypha, I don’t know.

Where Joseph Smith and others, picking up the refrain, says “reincarnation [or transmigration of the spirit] is a doctrine of the devil.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 105), we should probably assume that he is quoted correctly.

As one example of why this is so, look what it does in Indian where it is taught and believed openly: the oppression and virtual ignore-ance of a whole class of people (untouchables), who are regarded as deserving and deriving their lowly positions in life because of karmic debt incurred in prior lives.

And when we do know of a Savior and what will lead us to salvation, if we have a firm belief and regard in MMP/reincarnation, could this make us lax and blur our focus, thinking we have multiple lives to get it straight, or straighten things out? It reminds one of deathbed repentance and perhaps conversion, a la Constantine, who wanted the prerogatives, perks and range of action available to a Roman emperor of the time, thank you . . . . many of which probably didn’t fit the category of righteousness.

Two scriptures that are essentially the same, suggest that those who come to an awareness/knowledge of a savior in this life, come under a different program. These are: Mosiah 3:20-21 and 15:28

Mosiah 3:20-21
20 And moreover, I say unto you, that the time shall come when the knowledge of a Savior shall spread throughout every nation, kindred, tongue, and people.
21 And behold, when that time cometh, none shall be found blameless before God, except it be little children, only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent.

Verse 20, is virtually repeated in Mosiah 15:28, saying: And now I say unto you that the time shall come that the salvation of the Lord shall be declared to every nation, kindred, tongue and people.

This seems to imply that accountability and being judged according to the criteria of the Saviors atonement only kicks in when the knowledge of such comes to a given individual. There are entire nations, kindreds, tongues and people that have existed, giving themselves in marriage and dying, that have not had this knowledge. They have been without the test of living up to the Savior’s teachings and example while in this quite demanding life, or even knowing there is such a thing as eternal salvation.

At the same time, the Lord has said that he gives various people as much as he sees fit or they may require to provide some grounding in correct behavior. And then you have the light of Christ . . . which I think informs us regarding our sense of ‘natural law’, etc.

However, even though reincarnation/MMP may be an evil doctrine to teach, is there any truth to the fact of it happening, for whatever reasons, coming from the Lord or due to karmic restoration, etc. It even gives Lucifer more equal time to influence a given being; especially if that individual finally comes to the knowledge of a savior.

I’m reminded of the many stories, with several in book form, of young children insisting that they used to be this individual from the past, and subsequent research has shown that the individual the child identified with and described with much detail, actually existed. Any truth to these stories? There seems to be. Can it be that kids under the age of 8 could lie about such things or be deceived or used by Lucifer to plant such stories? Doesn’t seem plausible . . . . but maybe.

This following passage in Alma 41:15 could be taken as suggesting that a person who has done evil in this life, may require another life to have what he dished out restored to him/her again:

Alma 41:15
15 For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all.

This passage and the surrounding passages in Alma 41 and into 42 seems like the perfect description of the Law of Karma. Consider someone who performed some very evils acts in this life then died suddenly, without any such restoration to him in his/her current life. Could there be occasions where such a person would require another life to have this evil restored to him/her. In other words, can the restored punishment be something more than just being tormented in a purgatory state after death, especially in certain cases? Or is it all black and white.

The other passages from the Book of Mormon, mainly in Alms 41, that strongly suggest the reality of karmic retribution or restoration are the following:

Hints of the Law of Karma in the Book of Mormon (equivalent to ‘restoration’?)
• Alma 41:10
10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.
• Alma 41:12
12 And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?
Alma 41:13
13 O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.
• Alma 41:15
15 For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all.
• Alma 42:28
28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God. •
Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of this mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more: their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

You could read this last verse as saying that once you’re resurrected, you will not die anymore, implying that before this happens you are subject to dying maybe more than once. This could be a stretch, though.

I’ve always been intrigued by the “go no more out” scriptures, most of which are in the Book of Mormon. These passages have had for me at least a hint of the possibility of reincarnation/MMP.

Here they are:

Go No More Out Scriptures
• Alma 7:25
25 And may the Lord bless you, and keep your garments spotless, that ye may at last be brought to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the holy prophets who have been ever since the world began, having your garments spotless even as their garments are spotless, in the kingdom of heaven to go no more out.
• Alma 29:17
17 And now may God grant unto these, my brethren, that they may sit down in the kingdom of God; yea, and also all those who are the fruit of their labors that they may go no more out, but that they may praise him forever. And may God grant that it may be done according to my words, even as I have spoken. Amen.
• Alma 34:36
36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.
• Helaman 3:30
30 And land their souls, yea, their immortal souls, at the right hand of God in the kingdom of heaven, to sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and with Jacob, and with all our holy fathers, to go no more out.
• 3 Nephi 28:40
40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.
• Revelation 3:12
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

These scriptures are intriguing in that they suggest that we may “go out”, presumably multiple times, from the presence of God. But could this also mean we may go out multiple times into different spheres, including this telestial world and even terrestrial worlds, learning various lessons, suffering just, karmic retribution, etc., and even reward; maybe sent on missions of rescue or righteousness, before the final resurrection?

Just speculating.

[jwharton]

[ Place Holder for Future Comment ] Insufficient Time at this point.

So were you ever going to get around to making a response, which I presume was going to be to my post?

[brrgilbert]

The 2X2 array that was given is not inclusive of some other dimensions worth investigating. The state of "time" is a factor. This is to be considered in progressive stages. Being that our topic's "salvation" is not dependent upon dispensations of such . . . (Alma 37:11) It depends upon you to integrate the remaining variables based upon your "model," so that you decide. Go with it. I await your response.

[jwharton]

The 2X2 array that was given is not inclusive of some other dimensions worth investigating. The state of "time" is a factor. This is to be considered in progressive stages. Being that our topic's "salvation" is not dependent upon dispensations of such . . . (Alma 37:11) It depends upon you to integrate the remaining variables based upon your "model," so that you decide. Go with it. I await your response.

What other dimensions?
I already addressed the factor of "time".
Also, cosmology is irrelevant to my model.
I really have no idea where you think I should go with it.

[minorityofone]

The truth is that a soul is a being of glory. Picture your soul as a sphere of light. (Kind of like so many people see in NDEs) this sphere can be small or large or different colors depending upon the age, experience, and glory of the soul. When this soul incarnates it takes A PORTION of it's light, or itself and takes that portion and inhabits a body. That being as a mortal can gain light or lose it, if it becomes a son or daughter of perdition that means the light has been extinguished and the body or lower elements have taken complete control. There can be no forgiveness because the light is completely extinguished. BUT that does not mean the soul is dead. The soul could have only incarnated with 50 percent of it's light, and therefore still remains 50 percent in tact, and would be smart to pick a much easier body to go to next time. Jesus and other beings who are glorified to a great degree only need to bring the smallest sliver of light into a body but often bring a lot to fulfill great missions.
A soul can die but it would usually take multiple lifetimes. Each person reading this has a soul, which can be called the higher self, or I am presence, or in Islam it was called a Jin. Why has no one mentioned Buddhism yet? Buddhism in it's original form was the fulness of the gospel. Sidhartha was indeed an enlightened being who achieved Christhood, or became a Buddha. Jesus was the highest Christ or "Krishna" that has incarnated and atoned for mankind. The performance of atonements did not begin not end with Jesus though.
If you take the LDS lens off of the bible and read with the spirit mutiple lives is taught all over the place. Jesus and Adam came from the same soul. Read Corinthians 15 and pray for interpretation by the Spirit. Christ was the "second Adam"
Adam fell and caused all of the sin and pain to happen on this earth, knowing he would come back to fulfill the karma and take all of that sin and pain upon himself to lift mankind from the fall. I know this might sound like nonsense but if you can see the whole plan it is beautiful.

There's a lot to chew on there...do you have any scripture references besides 1 Cor 15 to back this up? I freely admit I do not know all there is to know about the atonement, but I thought it was based on love (Christ's love for us, and all creations love for Christ), not 'karma". Maybe I am getting hung up on the word...

The scriptures are just tools so all I really have as evidence is my testimony, which I admit is meaningless regarding others own search and testimony.
Yes it was absolutely all about love. Jesus and His wife did not have to fall, they were already Gods. They fell out of love for us, so we could experience all of the opposition here and the growth and opportunity, knowing they would also take upon them the karma of the decision out of love. It is the most loving act that has ever happened on this earth. God didn't say, have fun down there and let's see if you make it back, He/She said I will be the beginning (Adam and his wife) and I will be the end (the second Adam who was Jesus Christ)
I personally do not know who Michael was or is. I have received precisely zero revelation on the subject. I don't know that Michael and Adam are the same being or if Michael is just an angel with a high station so I don't know how that fits in to the picture.

[EvenTheLeastSaint]

One scripture that comes to mind which would allow for both Karma and the atonement is this:

D&C 19:

15 Therefore I command you to repent -- repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore -- how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit -- and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink --

The suffering of those who don't repent sufficiently (almost everyone) isn't really covered (completely) by the atonement, so they may leave themselves open for a little karmic justice.

[inho]

A question for those of you who believe in MMP:
Do you think that one can have many probations in this very same Earth, or is every probation on "a new round" with new Earth?

My understanding is that Jim Harmston (I think TLC is the most known sect teaching MMP) thought that he used to be Joseph Smith and few other former prophets. And someone already mentioned that Jews thought that John the Baptist could have been Elias or Jeremias.
The thought that I could be my own great grandpa is just somehow disturbing.

I haven't read all of DS's writings (not really a fan of him), but I too think that he has never taught MMP, at least openly. That is why it is so surprising to me that so many of his followers believe in it.

[janderich]

A question for those of you who believe in MMP:
Do you think that one can have many probations in this very same Earth, or is every probation on "a new round" with new Earth?

My understanding is that Jim Harmston (I think TLC is the most known sect teaching MMP) thought that he used to be Joseph Smith and few other former prophets. And someone already mentioned that Jews thought that John the Baptist could have been Elias or Jeremias.
The thought that I could be my own great grandpa is just somehow disturbing.

I haven't read all of DS's writings (not really a fan of him), but I too think that he has never taught MMP, at least openly. That is why it is so surprising to me that so many of his followers believe in it.

I'm not a follower of DS though I have read some of his works, but I'm not sure this has anything to do with him. I think you will get different answers from different people. But I believe that every probation is a new round and a new Earth, I would term it an "eternal round".


The Lord himself said, "For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea all things both spiritual and temporal - first spiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work - speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have no end, neither beginning..." (D&C 29:31-33) Parley P. Pratt said in regards to these verses, "We were firstly, spiritual, then fell under the curse; then take a higher temporal degree, and finally a higher spiritual degree. " (GC April 6, 1850) And so it continues, a new Adam, a new Savior, a new earth. Brigham Young says:

Let me open the eyes of your understanding. There has never been a time when the creations of worlds commenced. They are from eternity to eternity in their creations and redemption. After they are organized they experience the good and the evil, the light and the dark, the bitter and the sweet as you and I do. There never was a time when there were not worlds in existence as this world is, and they pass through similar changes in abiding their creation preparatory to exaltation. Worlds have always been in progress, and eternally will be. Every world has had an Adam and an Eve, named so simply because the first man is always called Adam and the first woman, Eve. And the oldest son has always had the privilege of being ordained, appointed and called to be the heir of the family if he does not rebel against the Father, and he is the Savior of the family. Every world that has been created has been created upon the same principle. They may vary in their varieties, yet the eternity is one: it is one eternal round. ("For This Is Life Eternal," Brigham Young Addresses (1982), 2:230)

We are first spiritual beings, then fall under the curse. Then we take a higher temporal degree followed at the resurrection by a higher spiritual degree. There in our new spiritual state we will dwell for the rest of eternity until a new round begins. A new Adam, a new Christ, indeed a new round for all those willing to enter it. Over and over progressing until we approach the measure and the stature of the fulness of Christ.

[jwharton]

A question for those of you who believe in MMP:
Do you think that one can have many probations in this very same Earth, or is every probation on "a new round" with new Earth?

My understanding is that Jim Harmston (I think TLC is the most known sect teaching MMP) thought that he used to be Joseph Smith and few other former prophets. And someone already mentioned that Jews thought that John the Baptist could have been Elias or Jeremias.
The thought that I could be my own great grandpa is just somehow disturbing.

I haven't read all of DS's writings (not really a fan of him), but I too think that he has never taught MMP, at least openly. That is why it is so surprising to me that so many of his followers believe in it.

I'm not a follower of DS though I have read some of his works, but I'm not sure this has anything to do with him. I think you will get different answers from different people. But I believe that every probation is a new round and a new Earth, I would term it an "eternal round".


The Lord himself said, "For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea all things both spiritual and temporal - first spiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work - speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have no end, neither beginning..." (D&C 29:31-33) Parley P. Pratt said in regards to these verses, "We were firstly, spiritual, then fell under the curse; then take a higher temporal degree, and finally a higher spiritual degree. " (GC April 6, 1850) And so it continues, a new Adam, a new Savior, a new earth. Brigham Young says:

Let me open the eyes of your understanding. There has never been a time when the creations of worlds commenced. They are from eternity to eternity in their creations and redemption. After they are organized they experience the good and the evil, the light and the dark, the bitter and the sweet as you and I do. There never was a time when there were not worlds in existence as this world is, and they pass through similar changes in abiding their creation preparatory to exaltation. Worlds have always been in progress, and eternally will be. Every world has had an Adam and an Eve, named so simply because the first man is always called Adam and the first woman, Eve. And the oldest son has always had the privilege of being ordained, appointed and called to be the heir of the family if he does not rebel against the Father, and he is the Savior of the family. Every world that has been created has been created upon the same principle. They may vary in their varieties, yet the eternity is one: it is one eternal round. ("For This Is Life Eternal," Brigham Young Addresses (1982), 2:230)

We are first spiritual beings, then fall under the curse. Then we take a higher temporal degree followed at the resurrection by a higher spiritual degree. There in our new spiritual state we will dwell for the rest of eternity until a new round begins. A new Adam, a new Christ, indeed a new round for all those willing to enter it. Over and over progressing until we approach the measure and the stature of the fulness of Christ.

I like the quote by Brigham Young. It very firmly indicates that things are in eternal rounds. Each round is an "eternity".

That scripture:
The Lord himself said, "For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea all things both spiritual and temporal - first spiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work - speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have no end, neither beginning..." (D&C 29:31-33)

This indicates how things are full-circle. We know we were born as spirits prior to being born physically here. And, we know, after people are physically born here that they need to receive their second birth, which is the spiritual birth we labor to bring people to, which is to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost. We make real in our lifetime this higher (or lower in the case of perdition) spiritual state Parley P. Pratt was talking about.

Also, this spiritual birth we experience in this world is the same spiritual birth we had as spirits in the pre-mortal existence.

It all is full-circle is the important thing to get.

[brrgilbert]

.