Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

[janderich]

How horrible would it be to run through the never-ending Choose Your Own Adventure only to never quite remember the bad choices that put you in the bad ending and then have to keep starting over to re-guess? That's a Sisyphean nightmare that seems to negate the purpose of the Atonement. I prefer to believe that God is incredibly merciful so He will forgive me and I don't have to try to figure it out again in another mortality. Besides, I really like my husband. I don't want to start over with someone else.

The concept of multiple probations is not an endless nightmare nor does it negate the purpose of the atonement.

First, there is an end. It comes when we have put that last great enemy, death, under our feet.

Second, there is a purpose. We do not pointlessly repeat, we begin where we left off. We go from one capacity to another learning and growing.

Third, MMP does not negate the atonement. We all need the atonement, including when we repent and when we are resurrected.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ...Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again" (John 3:3-7)

I invite you to more fully consider this doctrine taught by the Savior, Joseph, Brigham, and other early apostles of this dispensation.

Jesus was not teaching anything about multiple mortal lives in the John 3:3-7 scriptures. He clearly said that He was referring to being born again through the Spirit, which we're taught means through baptism and the Holy Ghost.

Neither Joseph nor Brigham taught multiple mortal lives. Joseph explicitly stated as referenced at the same citation as the JFS quote, that reincarnation is of the devil.

So you believe that Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews, steeped in symbolism, was some sort of fool? That he actually thought Jesus was telling him to enter into his mother's womb a second time when he was just talking about a spiritual change? I invite you to reconsider what you believe and why you believe it.

Here is Brigham Young on the matter: "Christ's words to Nicodemus seem to have troubled him considerably; he could not understand this New Birth. ...To get language to convey my ideas, perhaps would be difficult; but I will try to make you understand me. Nicodemus comes and says how can I be born again? How can I understand this new birth? I am old, I cannot be born again, but says Jesus, if you and the whole Jewish nation understood things in heaven, you would see how you, and all Israel could be born again... It amounts to this; a man must be converted from error to truth, born again to see the truth. If he has imbibed error, and is born again, and then imbibes erors again, he will be like the old lady, who was about 80 years old, and who had to be born over and over and over again, on account of her man [blank] and I don't know but he would want to be born over and over and over again. (The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, Vol. 2 p 871-874)

Joseph Smith did not say reincarnation was of the devil. Although, I agree with you that reincarnation as it is taught is not true doctrine. Joseph instead was speaking of a doctrine taught by a a man called Joshua who believed that the scheme of eternal life consisted of a person's soul transmigrating from father to son. It is regarding this doctrine that Joseph said, "I told him that his doctrine was of the devil, that he was in reality in possession of a wicked and depraved spirit" (TPJS p 105). When I speak of MMP I am talking of our same spirit coming down again after a long time in the eternal world to face challenges again. Not transmigration of souls.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Thank you Kingdom of Zion.
That is very interesting.
I will have to study this subject further.

Your welcome Robin Hood.

Here is the quote: http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/jst/4

JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION
GENESIS 14: 25-40

Melchizedek’s great ministry is mentioned; the powers and blessings of the Melchizedek Priesthood are described. (compare Genesis 14)

25 And Melchizedek lifted up his voice and blessed Abram.
26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;
29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.
30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;
31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.
32 And men having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven.
33 And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order; therefore he obtained peace in Salem, and was called the Prince of peace.
34 And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world;
35 And hath said, and sworn with an oath, that the heavens and the earth should come together; and the sons of God should be tried so as by fire.
36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the King of peace.
37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;
38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.
39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.
40 And it came to pass, that God blessed Abram, and gave unto him riches, and honor, and lands for an everlasting possession; according to the covenant which he had made, and according to the blessing wherewith Melchizedek had blessed him.

Shalom

[DRC53]

I believe the following is a fairly accurate statement about LDS doctrine notwithstanding any twisted spin any of y'all might try to put on it...

https://www.mormonwiki.com/Mormonism_and_Reincarnation

[Kingdom of ZION]

I believe the following is a fairly accurate statement about LDS doctrine notwithstanding any twisted spin any of y'all might try to put on it...

https://www.mormonwiki.com/Mormonism_and_Reincarnation

Yes, your right... they know very little about the Mysteries of the Kingdom.

They stand right where Nicodemus did in the Messiah's day. The Messiah tried to explain to Nicodemus what being "Born Again" was (the same topic we are discussing here), and after Nicodemus showed forth that he did not have a clue, the Messiah exclaimed to Nicodemus: "Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? John 3:10, KJV

If you choose to embrace the current LDS understanding, that fine, were not all at the same place in the Path. And most are not on the same Path that leads to such understanding anyway. In Matthew 7:13, it is called 'the Gate' rather than 'the Path'.

[Kingdom of ZION]

The Transmigration of Souls is where a man dies and he then enter into his son's body and he is now the son. Joseph Smith said that this was a false doctrine. Anciently, there were those who believed this too. When John the Baptist died, some wondered if the Messiah was John, alive again. This was not true!

However, when the Messiah was speaking of Elijah, He said that John the Baptist came and they knew him not, pointing out that he was actually Elijah, of old. That is what Malachi prophesied and the Messiah also taught.

Some here will say, "Oh He was only speaking of him coming in the spirit of such." They usually then go on to point out that Elijah only came to JS and OC in 1836 in the Kirtland Temple as a spirit." You are totally free to believe that! However, go to and read all of the sermons that JS gave after 1836 where he spoke of Elijah, and notice without exception how he always spoke about Elijah mission and calling being a future event. He said that Elijah would set all of the Ordinances of the house of the Lord in order, and that he would restore a Priesthood that Elijah was the last one to hold (the keys to) upon the earth.

If JS restored the fullness of the Priesthood, then what Priesthood is missing? (I will tell you)... it is that Priesthood that has the power to administer Translation (Patriarchal Priesthood)!

Shalom

[RAB]

Please forgive the long post as a first time poster. I have had some thoughts on the subject of our mortal probation, how long it is, and what progression, if any happens after this life. I came across a scripture in 2 Ne. 2:21 which states, "And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents." I had often wondered why people prior to the flood lived so long, and then it occurred to me that their lot was to achieve a state of perfection while in the flesh. But that took more than 900 years for most people to do it.

For example, Adam lived 930 years (Genesis 5:5).
Seth lived 912 years (Genesis 5:8).
Noah lived 950 years (Genesis 9:29).
All of these men were described or could be inferred to have achieved a state of perfection (ultimate perfection not coming until they were resurrected).
Moses 8:27 "And thus Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; for Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation; and he walked with God..." D&C 107:43 "Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age."

And in what must have been some sort of record, Enoch achieved a state of perfection such that he was translated after only 365 years.
Genesis 5:22-23- And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

So how does this relate to the topic at hand: It is obvious that for most mortals to achieve a state of perfection they need at least around a thousand years or so of progression to get there. Why would God allow some folks to get 1,000 years of mortality and then shorten the life of man after the flood. I actually think that has to do with the timing of the earth and how long people would have to wait for the resurrection to move on in their progression. So there are essentially three groups:

Group one got to come to earth fairly early, pre-flood, live for about a thousand years, and then had to wait 2000 years or so to be resurrected and move on in their perfection with the just folks who were resurrected at the time of Christ.

Group two, had to wait a couple thousand years to come to earth, post-flood but pre-resurrection, live a short mortality, and then also be resurrected at the time of Christ. They have had the time from Christ's resurrection until now to continue learning line upon line and achieve their perfection, which I am sure many of them have by now.

Finally, there is group three, those of us who came to earth after Christ's resurrection. We have had to wait from 4,000-6,000 years to come to earth, and live short mortalities. When will our 1,000 years to progress happen. My guess is that is exactly why we have a millenium. 1,000 years post resurrection to continue to progress and arrive at a state of perfection before our final judgement. As such, as some have pointed out the temple symbology, we progress from our telestial lives (mortality), hopefully demonstrating during our short period of probation that we can live at least a terrestrial law (we don't murder, we don't love and make lies, we live the law of chastity). Then when the earth is changed into a terrestrial sphere during the millenium, we, as well as all of those good people of the earth who lived according to the light and knowledge they have continue to progress. At the end of the millenium comes the final judgement, kindgoms are assigned, and the earth receives it's celestial glory. I believe that we do not enter into the Father's presence until we have achieved that perfection, which is the point of the millenium...to prepare to receive that honor and glory in the celestial sphere. However, our choices in this mortality, as quoted by Desert Rose from Alma make it clear that there is no second chance at mortality. This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. I believe, and have always interpreted the phrase "to go no more out" to slay the doctrine that one can fall from an exalted state. While I believe free agency is never restrained, I think those, like our Heavenly Father, that have become exalted have simply made it part of their nature to never choose to do wrong. And thus, they will not go out of the kingdom. We left his presence in the pre-existence, and once we return as exalted beings, we will go no more out.

So, this life is important, but we should cut ourselves some slack for not being perfect. Perfection takes time, and the atonement of Christ makes up the difference in the meantime. Resurrection, as Alma taught, does not change us magically into perfect creatures. We have to change our natures, little by little, every day. Then as we progress, light and knowledge are added unto us. These scriptures bring me that comfort:

D&C 50:24 "That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day."

D&C 67:13 "Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now, neither the ministering of angels; wherefore, continue in patience until ye are perfected."

D&C 45:46 "Wherefore, if ye have slept in peace [meaning died while being valiant] blessed are you; for as you now behold me and know that I am, even so shall ye come unto me and your souls shall live, and your redemption shall be perfected; and the saints shall come forth from the four quarters of the earth."

As one who has studied a lot of Church History I just wanted to cited a few cautions about some of the things said by well-meaning early members of the Church:

1st- Some Church Historians now believe that much, if not all, of Lectures on Faith was written by Sydney Rigdon, not Joseph Smith. Having read all of the volumes of Church History, I can see that the style of Lectures on Faith is much different than Joseph's, so that seems plausible. "Three independent authorship studies conducted in recent decades and using different reputable techniques all conclude that Sidney Rigdon was the primary author of the lectures. Based on these studies, not a single lecture can conclusively be attributed to Joseph Smith." http://en.fairmormon.org/Doctrine_and_C ... s_on_Faith

2nd-The Brigham Young Adam-God theory has been specifically denounced by President Spencer W. Kimball. "We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the Scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine." —Spencer W. Kimball, "Our Own Liahona," Ensign (November 1976), 77.

From en.fairmormon.org:

"BYU professor Stephen E. Robinson wrote:
Yet another way in which anti-Mormon critics often misrepresent LDS doctrine is in the presentation of anomalies as though they were the doctrine of the Church. Anomalies occur in every field of human endeavor, even in science. An anomaly is something unexpected that cannot be explained by the existing laws or theories, but which does not constitute evidence for changing the laws and theories. An anomaly is a glitch.... A classic example of an anomaly in the LDS tradition is the so-called "Adam-God theory." During the latter half of the nineteenth century Brigham Young made some remarks about the relationship between Adam and God that the Latter-day Saints have never been able to understand. The reported statements conflict with LDS teachings before and after Brigham Young, as well as with statements of President Young himself during the same period of time. So how do Latter-day Saints deal with the phenomenon? We don't; we simply set it aside. It is an anomaly. On occasion my colleagues and I at Brigham Young University have tried to figure out what Brigham Young might have actually said and what it might have meant, but the attempts have always failed. The reported statements simply do not compute—we cannot make sense out of them. This is not a matter of believing it or disbelieving it; we simply don't know what "it" is. If Brigham Young were here we could ask him what he actually said and what he meant by it, but he is not here.... For the Latter-day Saints, however, the point is moot, since whatever Brigham Young said, true or false, was never presented to the Church for a sustaining vote. It was not then and is not now a doctrine of the Church, and...the Church has merely set the phenomenon aside as an anomaly.[1]"
Stephen E. Robinson, "The Exclusion by Misrepresentation"

3rd-I would be very hesitant to believe anybody that says what a former prophet said. Saying what someone else said is the definition of hearsay. Hearsay is unreliable because people misunderstand what was said in the first place, they understand, but miscommunicate what was said, or they tell what was said much later than when it happened, and their memories distort what was actually said. For that reason hearsay is not allowed in court and is unreliable when trying to determine what is doctrine.

Please forgive the length of my response. I hope it is of some value.

[Alaris]

Please forgive the long post as a first time poster. I have had some thoughts on the subject of our mortal probation, how long it is, and what progression, if any happens after this life. I came across a scripture in 2 Ne. 2:21 which states, "And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents." I had often wondered why people prior to the flood lived so long, and then it occurred to me that their lot was to achieve a state of perfection while in the flesh. But that took more than 900 years for most people to do it.

For example, Adam lived 930 years (Genesis 5:5).
Seth lived 912 years (Genesis 5:8).
Noah lived 950 years (Genesis 9:29).
All of these men were described or could be inferred to have achieved a state of perfection (ultimate perfection not coming until they were resurrected).
Moses 8:27 "And thus Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; for Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation; and he walked with God..." D&C 107:43 "Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age."

And in what must have been some sort of record, Enoch achieved a state of perfection such that he was translated after only 365 years.
Genesis 5:22-23- And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

So how does this relate to the topic at hand: It is obvious that for most mortals to achieve a state of perfection they need at least around a thousand years or so of progression to get there. Why would God allow some folks to get 1,000 years of mortality and then shorten the life of man after the flood. I actually think that has to do with the timing of the earth and how long people would have to wait for the resurrection to move on in their progression. So there are essentially three groups:

Group one got to come to earth fairly early, pre-flood, live for about a thousand years, and then had to wait 2000 years or so to be resurrected and move on in their perfection with the just folks who were resurrected at the time of Christ.

Group two, had to wait a couple thousand years to come to earth, post-flood but pre-resurrection, live a short mortality, and then also be resurrected at the time of Christ. They have had the time from Christ's resurrection until now to continue learning line upon line and achieve their perfection, which I am sure many of them have by now.

Finally, there is group three, those of us who came to earth after Christ's resurrection. We have had to wait from 4,000-6,000 years to come to earth, and live short mortalities. When will our 1,000 years to progress happen. My guess is that is exactly why we have a millenium. 1,000 years post resurrection to continue to progress and arrive at a state of perfection before our final judgement. As such, as some have pointed out the temple symbology, we progress from our telestial lives (mortality), hopefully demonstrating during our short period of probation that we can live at least a terrestrial law (we don't murder, we don't love and make lies, we live the law of chastity). Then when the earth is changed into a terrestrial sphere during the millenium, we, as well as all of those good people of the earth who lived according to the light and knowledge they have continue to progress. At the end of the millenium comes the final judgement, kindgoms are assigned, and the earth receives it's celestial glory. I believe that we do not enter into the Father's presence until we have achieved that perfection, which is the point of the millenium...to prepare to receive that honor and glory in the celestial sphere. However, our choices in this mortality, as quoted by Desert Rose from Alma make it clear that there is no second chance at mortality. This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. I believe, and have always interpreted the phrase "to go no more out" to slay the doctrine that one can fall from an exalted state. While I believe free agency is never restrained, I think those, like our Heavenly Father, that have become exalted have simply made it part of their nature to never choose to do wrong. And thus, they will not go out of the kingdom. We left his presence in the pre-existence, and once we return as exalted beings, we will go no more out.

So, this life is important, but we should cut ourselves some slack for not being perfect. Perfection takes time, and the atonement of Christ makes up the difference in the meantime. Resurrection, as Alma taught, does not change us magically into perfect creatures. We have to change our natures, little by little, every day. Then as we progress, light and knowledge are added unto us. These scriptures bring me that comfort:

D&C 50:24 "That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day."

D&C 67:13 "Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now, neither the ministering of angels; wherefore, continue in patience until ye are perfected."

D&C 45:46 "Wherefore, if ye have slept in peace [meaning died while being valiant] blessed are you; for as you now behold me and know that I am, even so shall ye come unto me and your souls shall live, and your redemption shall be perfected; and the saints shall come forth from the four quarters of the earth."

As one who has studied a lot of Church History I just wanted to cited a few cautions about some of the things said by well-meaning early members of the Church:

1st- Some Church Historians now believe that much, if not all, of Lectures on Faith was written by Sydney Rigdon, not Joseph Smith. Having read all of the volumes of Church History, I can see that the style of Lectures on Faith is much different than Joseph's, so that seems plausible. "Three independent authorship studies conducted in recent decades and using different reputable techniques all conclude that Sidney Rigdon was the primary author of the lectures. Based on these studies, not a single lecture can conclusively be attributed to Joseph Smith." http://en.fairmormon.org/Doctrine_and_C ... s_on_Faith

2nd-The Brigham Young Adam-God theory has been specifically denounced by President Spencer W. Kimball. "We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the Scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine." —Spencer W. Kimball, "Our Own Liahona," Ensign (November 1976), 77.

From en.fairmormon.org:

"BYU professor Stephen E. Robinson wrote:
Yet another way in which anti-Mormon critics often misrepresent LDS doctrine is in the presentation of anomalies as though they were the doctrine of the Church. Anomalies occur in every field of human endeavor, even in science. An anomaly is something unexpected that cannot be explained by the existing laws or theories, but which does not constitute evidence for changing the laws and theories. An anomaly is a glitch.... A classic example of an anomaly in the LDS tradition is the so-called "Adam-God theory." During the latter half of the nineteenth century Brigham Young made some remarks about the relationship between Adam and God that the Latter-day Saints have never been able to understand. The reported statements conflict with LDS teachings before and after Brigham Young, as well as with statements of President Young himself during the same period of time. So how do Latter-day Saints deal with the phenomenon? We don't; we simply set it aside. It is an anomaly. On occasion my colleagues and I at Brigham Young University have tried to figure out what Brigham Young might have actually said and what it might have meant, but the attempts have always failed. The reported statements simply do not compute—we cannot make sense out of them. This is not a matter of believing it or disbelieving it; we simply don't know what "it" is. If Brigham Young were here we could ask him what he actually said and what he meant by it, but he is not here.... For the Latter-day Saints, however, the point is moot, since whatever Brigham Young said, true or false, was never presented to the Church for a sustaining vote. It was not then and is not now a doctrine of the Church, and...the Church has merely set the phenomenon aside as an anomaly.[1]"
Stephen E. Robinson, "The Exclusion by Misrepresentation"

3rd-I would be very hesitant to believe anybody that says what a former prophet said. Saying what someone else said is the definition of hearsay. Hearsay is unreliable because people misunderstand what was said in the first place, they understand, but miscommunicate what was said, or they tell what was said much later than when it happened, and their memories distort what was actually said. For that reason hearsay is not allowed in court and is unreliable when trying to determine what is doctrine.

Please forgive the length of my response. I hope it is of some value.

The longer lives pre-flood are also very symbolic of older / advanced souls and of perfection as you say. These advanced souls that have existed longer govern the younger souls. The flood represents a final judgement and Noah being the new father of mankind symbolizes the eternal role of Adam. Lives are then shortened, symbolizing that the times now are for the younger souls to progress. One of my articles - Levels, Orders, Numbers, and Symbols - was written to address the symbolism of the flood and longer lives:

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... mbols.html

These longer lives / shorter lives are also divided by the ancient / new promised land of America and newer / older promised land of Israel - if that makes sense. The symbols are all about the times and seasons of advancement of souls imho.

I'm writing an article on MMP, which is why I dug up this thread. Those scriptures you cite in D&C underscore MMP.

[sandman45]

Multiple mortal probations is a Denver Snuffer teaching, please correct me if wrong.

Reincarnation was rejected as a doctrine of the devil by Joseph Smith, please correct me if wrong.

Thanks for this from Elder Scott of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Shadow. I was unaware of that before.

These wicked ones were striving to manipulate those persons over whom
they sought to exercise control. I somehow was conscious that those who
believed their lies were being led through treachery and deceit from what
they wanted most. They soon began to believe that their individuality, their
experience, and their relationships as families and friends were being altered
and lost....
I cannot convey the unspeakable joy, the feeling of being wrapped in pure love, the absolute assurance that we will never lose our identity or memory of cherished relationships or the benefits of righteous acts as we continue to resist evil and are obedient to truth.

Reincarnation is way different than MMP and as far as I know it is not a DS teaching.

[BruceRGilbert]

Reincarnation is false as it ascribes "cycling" to lower forms of intelligence.

In the coming day, I will provide information about the spurious nature of the Multiple Mortal Probations Doctrine and what it infers.

[BruceRGilbert]

Certainly I can only relate the things that I have learned relative to this "troubling" doctrine of "Multiple Mortal Probations," and share that which has been revealed to me. In order to follow, (if you have any interest in understanding it as I do,) please pay attention to those words which are underlined, because those are the terms that provide the keys to the unraveling of it. Note: my understanding is amenable to change and enhancement and is not set in stone - hence discussion and further analysis are not precluded.

1 Nephi 15:26 And they said unto me: What meaneth the river of water which our father saw?

27 And I said unto them that the water which my father saw was filthiness; and so much was his mind swallowed up in other things that he beheld not the filthiness of the water.

28 And I said unto them that it was an awful gulf, which separated the wicked from the tree of life {1}, and also from the saints of God.

29 And I said unto them that it was a representation of that awful hell{2}, which the angel said unto me was prepared for the wicked.

30 And I said unto them that our father also saw that the justice {3} of God did also divide the wicked from the righteous; and the brightness thereof was like unto the brightness of a flaming fire, which ascendeth up unto God forever and ever, and hath no end.

31 And they said unto me: Doth this thing mean the torment of the body in the days of probation, or doth it mean the final state of the soul after the death of the temporal body, or doth it speak of the things which are temporal?

32 And it came to pass that I said unto them that it was a representation of things both temporal and spiritual; for the day should come that they must be judged of their works, yea, even the works which were done by the temporal body in their days of probation.

33 Wherefore, if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness {4} ; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.

34 But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.

35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell {2} of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.

36 Wherefore, the wicked are rejected from the righteous, and also from that tree of life {1}, whose fruit is most precious and most desirable above all other fruits; yea, and it is the greatest of all the gifts of God. And thus I spake unto my brethren. Amen.

{1} Tree of Life: One ought to ask themselves the significance of this tree? It is found in Paradise which is of a "Terrestrial Order," as mentioned in Genesis and Revelations. Does access to the fruit of this tree have anything to do with "Eternal Life," as opposed to mortality and death? Analysis will yield that Adam and Eve, while in the Garden, had access to the fruit of this tree. Was it the source of their "immortality?" Note the following verses:

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Access to the fruit of the Tree of Life is essential in order to live for ever. There is ample evidence to substantiate that access to this "fruit" can only be obtained through a Terrestrial existence or higher. This involves the principle of "Sanctification" and an understanding of what that means. A discussion of such will ensue.
{2} Hell: Language is not "casually used" in scriptural instances, and therefore, it behooves us to seek some "scripturally based" definitions of what is meant by this term:

Doctrine and Covenants 76:81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
84 These are they who are thrust down to hell. Note: present tense verb usage inferring environmental "state."
85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;
87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.
88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.
89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.
.
.
.
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.
106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;
107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
.
.
.
109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

Several things ought to be recognized:
1.) A Telestial state is referred to as "HELL."
2.) This earth is a "world" that is now experiencing a low order Telestial Order. This means that without the constant influx of energy, we would not be able to survive. Further, this "Earth" is sentient and is experiencing a "mortal" probation. "World" and "Earth" are not necessarily synonymous in scripture.
3.) Please forgive me for re-introducing the following graphic, but with respect to this topic it become necessary for me to utilize it for explanation and clarification:


The graphs on the left-hand side of this picture illustrate the differences between the "physical natures" of these "orders" of Kingdoms. The Telestial Order is one of ENTROPY, or a "negative slope." This means that over time, all things that are "organized" tend toward "disorganization" or "corruption," resulting in chaos. We have, in the private sector, at least, failed to reach "unity" or a condition of zero or no slope, as illustrated in the Terrestrial graph. This means that our energy efficiencies are below 100% or unity. We do not get more energy out of our physical surroundings than we put in according to the Laws of Thermodynamics. This is the "struggle of survival" in which we find ourselves. This is the condition in which we find our physical bodies, as well. It is here that we must "absorb" light / energy in order to subsist for a season with the eventuality being demise. Our "natures," being fallen, too, ideally prescribe the "Law of the Jungle." If a person is unaware, they become subject to the attitude of "I am better than you" or "dog eat dog" mentality. In this state, a person will remain until they recognize who the Master really is.

{3} Justice: Justice is a term that essentially implies obedience to laws of a governing entity, body or society. To be just, one must be free from entanglements of "penalties" inflicted by broken laws. To do so, one must be "innocent" of infraction. Justice must be applied equally to all under jurisdiction or judgment. The conditions of Heavenly Father's jurisdiction - over all things - is that one must be "justified" or found "innocent" in order to attain to "association." As I understand it, there are three ways to attain "justification:"
1.) Commit no infraction of the Law . . . by being perfect. (There has only be one being who can qualify in this category.)
2.) Pay the penalties of all broken laws by suffering the consequences thereof and fulfilling the demands of justice. (This satisfies the law, but does little to reform or refine the individual.)
3.) Incur "Probation" by accepting the vicarious sacrifice of a justified person that is accepted by the Law Giver and the enforcers of said Law. This is referred to as "Justification by Faith" insomuch as we comply with the following requisites:
Faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ - The Redeemer.
Repentance
Baptism (Physical Washing)
Laying on of Hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost (Spiritual Washing)
In this way, our "Recognition" of Christ becomes an "Association" with Him via the Holy Ghost and "personal" reformation is underway. One must be "justified" in order to attain to "sanctification."

Doctrine and Covenants 88:27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.
33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.
34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.
35 That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.
36 All kingdoms have a law given;
37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.
38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.
39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.

{4} Spiritual Death: Spiritual death means being "cut off" from all righteousness and the Source. A careful preponderance will yield that can happen by degrees. Outer Darkness is beyond the reach and realm of the Holy Ghost and is that condition wherein no light is attained. After this life, we will receive a judgment and those who are filthy still shall be consigned to their "kingdom" or "mansion" and they will "fall."

Conclusion and Discussion:

There is a "Telestial Order" resurrection. Lazarus and others received a resurrection that was not of the order of the FirstFruit. Much has been inferred by people doing things in hopes of a "better resurrection." We are experiencing the "Telestial Order" of things in this life. We have been given the process of what it means to "fall" from a "Terrestrial" or "Paradisical" state. Adam and Eve did not experience the veil of forgetfulness, as their eyes were opened. The only "state" in which "Multiple Mortal Probations" are possible, is in this Telestial one. Multiple "Worlds" does not infer that they are "Telestial" or "mortal."

Multiple Probations are possible and very probable without the need for them to be "mortal." We have a plan to escape recycling.

[BruceRGilbert]

As my confidence has waxed stronger and in view of further "revelation" upon the topic in a revisiting of my previous post - other things have become apparent to me that were not so, before:

1.) The "River" of dirty water is very analogous to "multiple mortal probations" as it depicts a "flow" akin to "time." That "flow" of time would be characterized as "dirty" because it, as explained before, would be in a "fallen state." The corporeal body would contain "blood" and, hence, the "corruption" of a "lower frequency" medium.

2.) The "Justice" of God that, also, divided the wicked from the righteous was very bright - "like unto the brightness of a flaming fire" that ascends up unto God forever and ever, having no end - depicts the Cherubims with their, (again "identical" descriptive word,) "flaming" sword that guarded the way to the tree of life. Flame invokes the association with "fire." The Flame acts as a veil and also a "purifier." Fire or Flame has the two properties identified in other places: LIGHT and HEAT - enlightenment and comfort - illumination and nurturing - Revelation and the Spirit. To the wicked and fearful, it is that which is to be avoided and that which will sweep the earth at the Lord's coming.

These things were added by virtue of having contemplated about "Why that segment of scripture?" The completion of thought may have been invoked by virtue of things that were "coming forth" at a sub-conscious level.

[larsenb]

I find it interesting that some are so eager to believe Elisa R Snow when she says the Prophet taught her the doctrine of plural marriage, but ignore her completely when she says he taught her about reincarnation.

Citation for this assertion??

[Kolob Children]

The Doctrine of Probations is a true Doctrine. I believe was part of the '100 fold more' on the Degrees of Glory that the Lord showed the Prophet Joseph that he was not permitted to write because the Saints were, (and are still), not ready to receive . You can find the words of Joseph about this, in the book 'The teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, complied by Joseph Fielding Smith. It is still in print I believe. If you will remember what we are here in this mortal experience for and see how distracted, entertained, and lazy we have become as life's innovations have actually granted us more ability than at any point in human history... you can easily see how such knowledge dispersed among the general membership of the LDS church would do more harm than good. By giving people accountability of a deeper Doctrine when they have yet to figure out how to live the remnant of the Law of Moses, (Ten Commandments), it would work against Father's Plan for us all to return home.
I know for me I would not have been ready even 5 years ago for this Doctrine. Once I chose to be Converted as Jesus said to Peter, and began to seek to have the Gospel live in me and not just me living the Gospel, gifts of the Spirit and deeper understandings of parables, scriptures and conference talks have become a regular event. We have much to do in the short time we have here. While it is good to seek and learn about this, it is more important to our presence here to attend to our visiting and home teaching, our personal scripture study, our learning Charity and bring up our children in righetousness. Merry Christmas to all !

[simpleton]

"3 June 1889: This evening I heard that Pres. Woodruff, in a meeting at Manti, a few days ago, publicly declared that the doctrine of reincarnation, that is one spirit having several bodies, to be false; that he was Wilford Woodruff and no one else, &c &c. Alright, bro. Woodruff, if you really said it, it is between you and the Lord. I believe it to be a true doctrine, & have for the last [word cut out of entry] years." (Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 3 June 1889 entry, Church Archives)

Orson F. Whitney here declares his belief that "the doctrine of reincarnation" is "a true doctrine." Just five days later, he entered the following comments about Lorenzo Snow in his diary:

"8 June 1889: During our talks he [Lorenzo Snow] told me that his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband. He said he [Lorenzo Snow] saw nothing unreasonable in it, and could believe it, if it came to him from the Lord or His oracle." (Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 8 June 1889 entry, Church Archives)

[simpleton]

Anonymous (September 02, 2016)

"Just thought it might be helpful to know that on June 8, 1889 there is no such entry about Eliza Snow. I've been finding this quote on blogs all over the Internet and being a blogger myself, decided to check out the source to verify, as this is a very fascinating quote. In fact I haven't been able to find this quote anywhere in his journal. The June 3rd quote is correct however. If you can verify the source of the Eliza quote please update the reference."
Reply:

Thank you for your input. I understand that like with things in the Wilford Woodruff diaries, they had certain stuff removed from the typescript, so you have to find a way to see the original handwritten diaries. I've heard that Orson Whitney's family weren't pleased with his views on the resurrection, and had the stuff on it removed from the published edition. The manuscript my link refers to is handwritten and somewhat hard to decipher.

[larsenb]

"3 June 1889: This evening I heard that Pres. Woodruff, in a meeting at Manti, a few days ago, publicly declared that the doctrine of reincarnation, that is one spirit having several bodies, to be false; that he was Wilford Woodruff and no one else, &c &c. Alright, bro. Woodruff, if you really said it, it is between you and the Lord. I believe it to be a true doctrine, & have for the last [word cut out of entry] years." (Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 3 June 1889 entry, Church Archives)

Orson F. Whitney here declares his belief that "the doctrine of reincarnation" is "a true doctrine." Just five days later, he entered the following comments about Lorenzo Snow in his diary:

"8 June 1889: During our talks he [Lorenzo Snow] told me that his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband. He said he [Lorenzo Snow] saw nothing unreasonable in it, and could believe it, if it came to him from the Lord or His oracle." (Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 8 June 1889 entry, Church Archives)

Thanks. Fascinating. Also the idea that Orson's family would redact his approval of MMP doctrine from the published version of his diaries. This is a common undertaking by heirs. Their attempt to sanitize.

[gardener4life]

"3 June 1889: This evening I heard that Pres. Woodruff, in a meeting at Manti, a few days ago, publicly declared that the doctrine of reincarnation, that is one spirit having several bodies, to be false; that he was Wilford Woodruff and no one else, &c &c. Alright, bro. Woodruff, if you really said it, it is between you and the Lord. I believe it to be a true doctrine, & have for the last [word cut out of entry] years." (Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 3 June 1889 entry, Church Archives)

Orson F. Whitney here declares his belief that "the doctrine of reincarnation" is "a true doctrine." Just five days later, he entered the following comments about Lorenzo Snow in his diary:

"8 June 1889: During our talks he [Lorenzo Snow] told me that his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband. He said he [Lorenzo Snow] saw nothing unreasonable in it, and could believe it, if it came to him from the Lord or His oracle." (Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 8 June 1889 entry, Church Archives)

Thanks. Fascinating. Also the idea that Orson's family would redact his approval of MMP doctrine from the published version of his diaries. This is a common undertaking by heirs. Their attempt to sanitize.

I'd be careful with crediting a false idea. People have tampered with journals of the early LDS prophets. The journal of Wilford Woodruff for example there's a real good version, and a separate tampered with version messed with by people like Ogden Kraut. And that version doesn't match the real one.

[inho]

I'd be careful with crediting a false idea. People have tampered with journals of the early LDS prophets. The journal of Wilford Woodruff for example there's a real good version, and a separate tampered with version messed with by people like Ogden Kraut. And that version doesn't match the real one.

What is the real good version? I have read Kraut's abridgement and it matches the shortened version published by Signature books. It is my understanding that it also matches the complete ten-volume diary series. Could you point out some instances where Kraut has tampered the text, so that I can check the different versions?

[Rand]

""8 June 1889: During our talks he [Lorenzo Snow] told me that his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband. He said he [Lorenzo Snow] saw nothing unreasonable in it, and could believe it, if it came to him from the Lord or His oracle." (Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 8 June 1889 entry, Church Archives)"

I could accept it if it were proclaimed by the Lord and His oracles. I am not sure if I would trust one of you to receive it from the Lord, nor would I trust myself if I felt I received it from the Lord, unless it were one of those marvelous manifestations. But, if the Lord whispered it to me, and The Lord taught in through his oracles, I could swallow the idea...

[Silver]

It's easy. Just get President Russell M. Nelson to say that MMP is true doctrine in General Conference or in an official publication of the Church.Or petition Church HQ to make a statement.

It won't happen though because it is clearly anti-Christ and the false ramblings of Denver Snuffer and all his followers here.

[Silver]

And for those of you joining us late, the pernicious heresy that is MMP is promoted by Snuffer & Julie Rowe. Anytime that dynamic duo agree on anything, run, don't walk, away as quickly as possible.

Wouldn't it be interesting if all the Snufferites on this forum had the courage to self-identify in a thread of their own creation? You know, a coming out, so to speak.

[inho]

And for those of you joining us late, the pernicious heresy that is MMP is promoted by Snuffer & Julie Rowe. Anytime that dynamic duo agree on anything, run, don't walk, away as quickly as possible.

Wouldn't it be interesting if all the Snufferites on this forum had the courage to self-identify in a thread of their own creation? You know, a coming out, so to speak.

I think you are giving too much credit to Mr. Snuffer. There have been heretics before Snuffer and there will be heretics after him. Some of those heretics have taught MMP and I'm sure that will also happen in the future. Not all heretics believing in MMP are Snufferites.


The original sources for MMP are some remarks by Heber C. Kimball. Although not a heretic, he lived during the formation period of the church when it was more common for church leaders to openly speculate on theological subjects.

MMP is also closely related to Adam-God teachings. However, traditional Mormon fundamentalists don't really teach MMP. Instead, they teach something close to that: we will be Adams or Eves to another worlds. Some of the fundamentalists, but not all, also believe that we will be saviors of worlds.

MMP became common in the Mormon Fringe in 90's with Jim Harmston and the True and Living Church. It is interesting to note that many of the core teachings of TLC are still popular among today's heretics. MMP is one example. An obsession to make one's calling and election sure, and receiving the Second Comforter is another. Joanne Hanks, an ex-TLC member, has told that for her and her husband the thing that draw them in what later became TLC was the interest in end-time prophecies.

[larsenb]

. . . .
The original sources for MMP are some remarks by Heber C. Kimball. Although not a heretic, he lived during the formation period of the church when it was more common for church leaders to openly speculate on theological subjects. . . . . .

I think it is good for anyone to speculate and think about theological subjects, but ideally undertaken in a spirit of faith.

My thoughts on some apparent inequities with our present ideas or incomplete understanding regarding how in utero, infant, below-the-age-of accountability early deaths are handled by our theology, is an example of this kind of approach: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47356&start=630#p833525.

Something I'm not sure has been raised in these threads, is the idea that MMP may exist in some or limited cases or conditions but is NOT to be taught as a Church doctrine, or even labeled as a true doctrine. Doing so could do a lot of damage. (India anyone?) AND teaching or ramping up MMP ideas is not congruent with more and more people, especially in our current time, who are able to learn about the escape clause offered by Christ's atonement.

Kind of a paradox.

But again, this is just my idle speculation. Not hard and fast with me, at all. And I'm not a snufferite, nor have even heard about other LDS or related people/groups teaching MMP as a doctrine.

[sandman45]

And for those of you joining us late, the pernicious heresy that is MMP is promoted by Snuffer & Julie Rowe. Anytime that dynamic duo agree on anything, run, don't walk, away as quickly as possible.

Wouldn't it be interesting if all the Snufferites on this forum had the courage to self-identify in a thread of their own creation? You know, a coming out, so to speak.

I think you are giving too much credit to Mr. Snuffer. There have been heretics before Snuffer and there will be heretics after him. Some of those heretics have taught MMP and I'm sure that will also happen in the future. Not all heretics believing in MMP are Snufferites.


The original sources for MMP are some remarks by Heber C. Kimball. Although not a heretic, he lived during the formation period of the church when it was more common for church leaders to openly speculate on theological subjects.

MMP is also closely related to Adam-God teachings. However, traditional Mormon fundamentalists don't really teach MMP. Instead, they teach something close to that: we will be Adams or Eves to another worlds. Some of the fundamentalists, but not all, also believe that we will be saviors of worlds.

MMP became common in the Mormon Fringe in 90's with Jim Harmston and the True and Living Church. It is interesting to note that many of the core teachings of TLC are still popular among today's heretics. MMP is one example. An obsession to make one's calling and election sure, and receiving the Second Comforter is another. Joanne Hanks, an ex-TLC member, has told that for her and her husband the thing that draw them in what later became TLC was the interest in end-time prophecies.

Adams and eves to other worlds was taught a lot by Brigham Young. There is a quote out there where Young is saying this plain as day to the relief society. I’ll find the quote later when I have some time.

Joseph taught it as well but not as plainly. Christ taught it but it was too more subtle teaching similar to the teaching pointed out by Kingdom of Zion about another item of doctrine about Elijah

[abijah]

Just recalled the other day about how the transmigration of souls was a general belief among the Pharisees and masses during the life of Jesus. This would further explain the conversation he has with his disciples in Matthew 16, when after asking what people say of Him, people have thought He was elijah or jeremiah reborn.

Perhaps it is significant, that for one the disciples did not disbelieve in this notion of being reborn, and neither did Christ speak out against any falseness in it.

As for me, I believe members of the Godhead can experience multiple probations. I do not believe that everyone can however.