Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

[azalea.rubicon]

Does anyone here know anything about this doctrine and could you share your knowledge? Why do you subscribe to this doctrine and why not? Thanks.

[ajax]

This is what I currently think, subject to change (as always):

The idea that this is a one-off probation for all eternity makes reason stare. We have existed for a very long time and will exist for a very long time. Perhaps there are multiple rounds wherein there is work to be done.

Joseph stated in his KF discourse, "God himself was once as we are now...and that He was once a man like us"

If this was the case, and then He later as a God condescended to save us, wouldn't that make at least two mortalities for God? At least one as a man like all of us to become like God and then one as a condescended God.

Jesus also stated He did only what He saw His Father do, that is to lay down his body and take it up again. So the Father is a saviour, the Son is a saviour, and they invite us to be as them, to do what they do, to enter their order, which is the order of the Son of God, the order of saviours. This may be part of our story in a distant eternity.

Joseph again, "and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation"

I think this takes more than just one go around, with all the inequities, injustice, shortened lives etc. I don't think we magically become as God in the afterlife just because.

This is not to downplay the significance of THIS mortality. I think they all intensely matter and have ramifications on future events. Thus the injunction not to procrastinate the day of repentance. The time to repent is always now.

[Obrien]

You're pretty eloquent, for a Texan.
Speaking of Texans, where the heck has Rewcox been lately?

[ajax]

You're pretty eloquent, for a Texan.
Speaking of Texans, where the heck has Rewcox been lately?

Thanks, though I'm not native Texan. NorCal transplant in '08.

Not sure where rew is. Kinda miss the guy. We disagreed on some things, but I don't necessarily think we were disagreeable. Hope he's well.

[SAM]

I agree with ajax. Also, while praying and pondering about this subject on my mission, a while back now, the scripture Moses 1:39 came clearly to my mind with the idea that our salvation is all God does. Everything He does is for our eternal welfare. I can't imagine one small mortality is the main thing upon which our fate for all eternity is based. He won't give up on us. He'll give all the eternities we need to get back to Him. However, the sooner we figure out how, the sooner we progress and receive more joy because wickedness never was happiness and consequences still remain and can be lasting and painful. Hence the reason we should make the best use of our current situation to get closer to Christ and Heavenly Father.

[jbalm]

You mean we gotta do all this crap again?

[Obrien]

AGAIN??? Try again FOREVER.

[ajax]

You mean we gotta do all this crap again?

Well you don't remember last time so......

[jbalm]

AGAIN??? Try again FOREVER.

Most depressing thread ever.

[jbalm]

You mean we gotta do all this crap again?

Well you don't remember last time so......

That's a plus I guess. At least I won't feel stupid for making the same mistakes over and over again...for eternity.

FML (all of them)

[Obrien]

Eternity is a mix of Groundhog Day and Rainman? Most depressing thread ever - confirmed.

[shadow]

"15 minutes to Judge Wapner and The People's Court." Raymond


Phil: I'm a god.
Rita: You're God.
Phil: I'm a god — I'm not the God, I don't think.
Rita: Because you survived a car wreck?
Phil: I didn't just survive a wreck; I wasn't just blown up yesterday. I have been stabbed, shot, poisoned, frozen, hung, electrocuted and burned.
Rita: Oh really?
Phil: [nods] Every morning I wake up without a scratch on me, not a dent in the fender: I am an immortal.

[ajax]

Eternity is a mix of Groundhog Day and Rainman? Most depressing thread ever - confirmed.

Maybe. I guess it's a plus not to remember. Our existence is always now. Maybe the higher you get, the more you remember. Which means I'm pretty low.

We're just so used to "get rich exalted quick" schemes here in America.

[Obrien]

"15 minutes to Judge Wapner and The People's Court." Raymond


Phil: I'm a god.
Rita: You're God.
Phil: I'm a god — I'm not the God, I don't think.
Rita: Because you survived a car wreck?
Phil: I didn't just survive a wreck; I wasn't just blown up yesterday. I have been stabbed, shot, poisoned, frozen, hung, electrocuted and burned.
Rita: Oh really?
Phil: [nods] Every morning I wake up without a scratch on me, not a dent in the fender: I am an immortal.

immortal =/= God

[azalea.rubicon]

I agree with ajax. Also, while praying and pondering about this subject on my mission, a while back now, the scripture Moses 1:39 came clearly to my mind with the idea that our salvation is all God does. Everything He does is for our eternal welfare. I can't imagine one small mortality is the main thing upon which our fate for all eternity is based. He won't give up on us. He'll give all the eternities we need to get back to Him. However, the sooner we figure out how, the sooner we progress and receive more joy because wickedness never was happiness and consequences still remain and can be lasting and painful. Hence the reason we should make the best use of our current situation to get closer to Christ and Heavenly Father.

What does this mean for the sons of Perdition? Will they be given the chance to be save eventually in the next few eternal rounds? This is a very interesting topic to me and something you will NEVER hear being discussed in Gospel Doctrine. The only hope for someone to know there are other things that can be learned that are essentials to our salvation is to pick other people's brain and those who have advanced knowledge. Also, if there is multiple rounds of probation, the Adam-God-Theory makes some sense then because God can come down and assist and bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of men, at least to me it makes sense.

[shadow]

[quote="azalea.rubicon"]

What does this mean for the sons of Perdition? Will they be given the chance to be save eventually in the next few eternal rounds? This is a very interesting topic to me and something you will NEVER hear being discussed in Gospel Doctrine. The only hope for someone to know there are other things that can be learned that are essentials to our salvation is to pick other people's brain and those who have advanced knowledge. quote]
We don't hear about it because we don't know much about it.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

I think Elder Scott was one who had it revealed to him.
"Recently I awoke from a most disturbing dream. I ached
physically, was saturated with perspiration, and my heart was pounding.
Every sense was sharpened. The transition from sleep to wakefulness was
imperceptible. I have come to recognize that as an indication of a
significant spiritual experience in a dream. I had been taught lessons that
would change my life. Although the actual dream was extensive, the key
lessons communicated can be summarized by reference to a few specific
experiences in the dream.

In it I found myself in a very different and unknown environment.
Everything was strange to me. I could not recognize where I was or any of
the individuals who surrounded me. I was anxiously seeking my wife,
Jeanene. We had been separated, and I wanted very much to find her. Each
individual I encountered said that I would not be able to do that. Repeatedly
as I sought in different directions to find her, I was emphatically told to
forget her for she would not be found.

I was frustrated at every turn. One said, "She is no longer the same
individual. There isn't a Jeanene like you knew."

I thought, "that is impossible. I know her, and I know she will never
change."

Then I was told, "You are not the same. There is no individual by the name
of Richard Scott, and soon all the memories you've had of Jeanene, your
children, and other loved ones will be eradicated."

Fear entered my heart, accompanied by a horrifying feeling. Then came the
thought: "No, that is impossible. Those relationships are enduring and
unchanging. As long as we live righteously, they cannot be eliminated. They
are eternally fixed."

As more encounters came, I realized that I was surrounded with evil
individuals who were completely unhappy, with no purpose save that of
frustrating the happiness of others so that they too would become miserable.
These wicked ones were striving to manipulate those persons over whom
they sought to exercise control. I somehow was conscious that those who
believed their lies were being led through treachery and deceit from what
they wanted most. They soon began to believe that their individuality, their
experience, and their relationships as families and friends were being altered
and lost. They became angry, aggressive, and engulfed by feelings of
hopelessness.

The pressure became more intense to accept as reality that what I had been
no longer existed and that my cherished wife was no longer the same.
Should I encounter her she wouldn't recognize me nor want me. I resisted
those thoughts with every capacity that I could find. I was determined to find
her. I knew that there must be a way and was resolute in searching no matter
what the cost in time or effort.

It was then that I broke out of that oppressive surrounding and could see that
it was ugly, artificial, contrived environment. So intense where the feelings
generated by what I had been told by those bent on destroying my hope to
take me captive that I had not realized the forces of opposition that made my
effort appear fruitless could have no power over me unless I yielded through
fear or abandonment of my principles----

As I awoke there flooded over me
feeling of love and gratitude for our Heavenly Father and his Beloved Son
that I do not have the capacity to express. My heart and mind filled with
consuming love for them and inexpressible appreciation for the blessing that
are available to every spiritual child of Father in Heaven willing to believe
and be obedient to the plan of happiness.

I cannot convey the unspeakable joy, the feeling of being wrapped in pure love, the absolute assurance that we will never lose our identity or memory of cherished relationships or the benefits of righteous acts as we continue to resist evil and are obedient to truth. (Finding Happiness, BYU Devotional Aug. 19, 1997)

To add to that, Brigham Young said-
Brigham Young: "Every kingdom will be blotted out of existence,
except the one whose ruling spirit is the Holy Ghost, and whose king is the
Lord. The Lord said to Jeremiah the Prophet, "Arise, and go down to the
potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went
down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hands of the potter: so
he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."
The clay that marred in the potter's hands was thrown back into the
unprepared portion, to be prepared over again. So it will be with every
wicked man and woman, and every wicked nation, kingdom, and
government upon earth, sooner or later; they will be thrown back to the
native element from which they originated, to be worked over again, and be
prepared to enjoy some sort of a kingdom (glory)." (Journal of Discourses, 2
page 124)

[Obrien]

I taught GD last year for OT. MY team teacher got this ^^^ Jeremiah lesson. I was sad, but not surprised, that this uncorrelated talk by BY was not part of the discussion. How do YOU know this uncorrelated doctrine, Shadow? Perhaps there's a light beginning to dawn on you...

[BroJones]

Multiple mortal probations is a Denver Snuffer teaching, please correct me if wrong.

Reincarnation was rejected as a doctrine of the devil by Joseph Smith, please correct me if wrong.

Thanks for this from Elder Scott of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Shadow. I was unaware of that before.

These wicked ones were striving to manipulate those persons over whom
they sought to exercise control. I somehow was conscious that those who
believed their lies were being led through treachery and deceit from what
they wanted most. They soon began to believe that their individuality, their
experience, and their relationships as families and friends were being altered
and lost....
I cannot convey the unspeakable joy, the feeling of being wrapped in pure love, the absolute assurance that we will never lose our identity or memory of cherished relationships or the benefits of righteous acts as we continue to resist evil and are obedient to truth.

[deep water]

I am more open to all teachings. If being resurrected into the first of the millennium would mean multiple mortalities, then I could believe in it. There are many mysteries that I do not understand. God has said so.
If Christ is just doing what his father did, and we are to follow Christ, how could their not be something like unto multiple mortalities?

[marktheshark]

I smell bullcrap and false doctrine all over this thread.

[boo]

AGAIN??? Try again FOREVER.

I think there is a nuance here that we can lose sight of . It is my guess ( it doesn't rise to the level of a belief ) that we can hop off the train or elect to stop climbing the ladder whenever we want. We do have our agency eternally , however there are consequences to that choice. Sort of like dropping out of high school when you are a sophomore . Your progress toward a PhD effectively comes to an end

[chemish]

I'm pretty sure Joseph taught this plainly before Denver ever alluded to it. Reincarnation is not the same as multiple mortal probations. Joseph said the transmutation of spirits was of the devil. If we have a certain glory here and we'll be ressurected to another glory...and on and on. This doctrine tastes good to me

[Robin Hood]

I believe we can have more than one mortal experience.
I believe that if our life's mission (and we all have one) is cut short through no fault of our own, we are given the option to return and finish. This is a free choice, there is no compulsion involved.

I know this isn't orthodox belief, but I believe it because I had an experience when I was young which has never left me. I'm not going to reveal it here, because it is personal to me. However, I believe I know what I'm talking about.

[ajax]

Multiple mortal probations is a Denver Snuffer teaching, please correct me if wrong.

Reincarnation was rejected as a doctrine of the devil by Joseph Smith, please correct me if wrong.

Not everything you disagree with originates with DS. This idea has been around for a long time.
JS did reject reincarnation, but this is not the same as MMP.

FWIW, Alma 13 is interesting in regards to this topic.

[BroJones]

Did (or will) Jesus our exemplar have more than one mortal probation?