Multiple Mortal Probation Doctrine

[Silver Pie]

I've never heard of this before. Where did you get it?

. . . Elisa R Snow . . . when she says he [Joseph Smith] taught her about reincarnation.

[janderich]

:-w t

Can one read that quote from BY without understanding it in the context of BY's Adam-God teachings?
Can one believe in MMP without believing in A-G?

(Also, a side issue in that quote (and quotes similar to that) is the old question whether Jesus is the Savior of this Earth only or does the atonement cover several earths/worlds. Scriptures tell us that at least Jesus is the Creator of many worlds. Since this quote only uses the word 'world', I guess on can understand it to mean whole of the observable universe.)

No doubt people can take BY teachings and spin them many ways, as has been done.

BY believed that each world had a new Christ. That of course does not negate the possibility that our same Savior helped create many worlds before this one. However, I believe Christ, the anointed one, to be a title. Yes "Christ" created every earth but it was not the same individual. Also, the notion that Jesus is the savior of all worlds ever created, and that he appeared on this earth because it was the most wicked/righteous is sheer folly. Of billions of worlds we are the most righteous? Just like people use to believe that this world was the center of the universe.

Christ has many worlds in His dominion. If Mmp is real than couldn't the same being live on each world and suffer, atone, and overcome for each of His creations? Now that I have opened my mind to this idea it seems to increase His grandier if true.

I believe there will come a time when we will die no more, when our spirit and our body will be united never to separated again. Joseph Smith said:

“Salvation is nothing more nor less than to triumph over all our enemies and put them under our feet. And when we have power to put all enemies under our feet in this world, and a knowledge to triumph over all evil spirits in the world to come, then we are saved, as in the case of Jesus, who was to reign until He had put all enemies under His feet, and the last enemy was death (see 1 Corinthians 15:25–26) HC 5:387-388

We will continue to die until we have put death under our feet.

Jesus Christ reached this state when he accomplished the atonement. His spirit forever united with his body in perfect wholeness, never to be divided, "And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son...and they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God...Yea even so he shall be led crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men. (Mosiah 15:2-5, 7-8) Having subjected the flesh to the spirit, even unto death, Christ became at one. I do not believe such a being will have to suffer again, perish the thought. No, the Son treads in the tracks of his Father. Where the Father tread, the Son follows to a more exaulted sphere.

[Alaris]

:-w t

Can one read that quote from BY without understanding it in the context of BY's Adam-God teachings?
Can one believe in MMP without believing in A-G?

(Also, a side issue in that quote (and quotes similar to that) is the old question whether Jesus is the Savior of this Earth only or does the atonement cover several earths/worlds. Scriptures tell us that at least Jesus is the Creator of many worlds. Since this quote only uses the word 'world', I guess on can understand it to mean whole of the observable universe.)

No doubt people can take BY teachings and spin them many ways, as has been done.

BY believed that each world had a new Christ. That of course does not negate the possibility that our same Savior helped create many worlds before this one. However, I believe Christ, the anointed one, to be a title. Yes "Christ" created every earth but it was not the same individual. Also, the notion that Jesus is the savior of all worlds ever created, and that he appeared on this earth because it was the most wicked/righteous is sheer folly. Of billions of worlds we are the most righteous? Just like people use to believe that this world was the center of the universe.

Christ has many worlds in His dominion. If Mmp is real than couldn't the same being live on each world and suffer, atone, and overcome for each of His creations? Now that I have opened my mind to this idea it seems to increase His grandier if true.

I believe there will come a time when we will die no more, when our spirit and our body will be united never to separated again. Joseph Smith said:

“Salvation is nothing more nor less than to triumph over all our enemies and put them under our feet. And when we have power to put all enemies under our feet in this world, and a knowledge to triumph over all evil spirits in the world to come, then we are saved, as in the case of Jesus, who was to reign until He had put all enemies under His feet, and the last enemy was death (see 1 Corinthians 15:25–26) HC 5:387-388

We will continue to die until we have put death under our feet.

Jesus Christ reached this state when he accomplished the atonement. His spirit forever united with his body in perfect wholeness, never to be divided, "And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son...and they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God...Yea even so he shall be led crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men. (Mosiah 15:2-5, 7-8) Having subjected the flesh to the spirit, even unto death, Christ became at one. I do not believe such a being will have to suffer again, perish the thought. No, the Son treads in the tracks of his Father. Where the Father tread, the Son follows to a more exaulted sphere.

Like

[Dlight]

This is an interesting idea and one that I've considered a lot. I'd be open to either outcome.

The problem with the pro argument is that it assumes multiple mortal probations would actually result in any change of behavior at all. Perhaps we would just fall short in the same or different ways over and over again.

Another point to consider is that when we die and have the veil removed, at some point we will undoubtedly have a perfect recollection of all our guilt, and probably remember more about who we were before this life and all we've been taught for presumably millions of years. My guess is that this will lead to enormous insight and personal understanding and growth regardless of how this life turned out.

In the end it will ask come down to which law we can actually abide. I don't think anyone that wants to abide all of God's laws won't be able to, because the desire to abide God's laws must be developed in this life. My guess is that everyone who truly wants to abide these laws will be with God, but that many people will be fine and more comfortable abiding lower laws.

[janderich]

This is an interesting idea and one that I've considered a lot. I'd be open to either outcome.

The problem with the pro argument is that it assumes multiple mortal probations would actually result in any change of behavior at all. Perhaps we would just fall short in the same or different ways over and over again.

Another point to consider is that when we die and have the veil removed, at some point we will undoubtedly have a perfect recollection of all our guilt, and probably remember more about who we were before this life and all we've been taught for presumably millions of years. My guess is that this will lead to enormous insight and personal understanding and growth regardless of how this life turned out.

In the end it will ask come down to which law we can actually abide. I don't think anyone that wants to abide all of God's laws won't be able to, because the desire to abide God's laws must be developed in this life. My guess is that everyone who truly wants to abide these laws will be with God, but that many people will be fine and more comfortable abiding lower laws.

But consider, we in the LDS church have been taught since we were children that real personal growth in certain areas can only happen when we are separated from God. Sure when our understanding returns after this life we will of course be enlightened and abide a higher law. But at some level when we know God is there, we cannot further progress. I have always liked how David O. McKay said it, "Day by day, hour by hour, man builds the character that will determine his place and standing among his associates throughout the ages. … More important than riches, more enduring than fame, more precious than happiness is the possession of a noble character. Truly it has been said that the grand aim of man’s creation is the development of a grand character, and grand character is by its very nature the product of a probationary discipline” (“Man’s Soul Is As Endless As Time,” Instructor, Jan. 1960, 1–2). Character can only be developed as part of a probationary discipline and in no other way.

What then is the path? The Lord said, "First, spiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work - speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have no end neither beginning..." Referring to this scripture Parley P. Pratt once said, "We were firstly, spiritual, then fell under the curse, then take a higher temporal degree, and finally a higher spiritual degree" (General Conference April 6, 1850 JHCJCCS April 6, 1850 p. 1-2). Trials and challenges on this earth will stretch us a cause us to grow or to retrogress. As I currently see it there are really only two ends. Give up on the gospel plan despite knowing it in full (son of perdition, sometimes referred to as the 1/3 who followed Satan), or continue until we have conquered death. I don't think there is an option to sit satisfied where we are at. Perhaps we will remain in a simmilar condition for a very very long time but ultimately we will change.

[Kingdom of ZION]

When a Second Estate Being comes down here, they come for two things: to get a body, and to choose whom they will serve - the light or the darkness. They get but one life!

Now their are some who were so valiant from the First Estate, that many of them come down and die before the age of account ability, are aborted but take breathe (as some hold this sacred, though I think what counts is far more diverse then most imagine), and get to move on (forward). Like a pass jail card in a Monopoly Game. However, if they prove well they will go around the board and their time will come when they land back here. And yes, it feels like jail! The world hates you just because of who you are!

Then there are the children of the Evil One. They do get bodies, in spite of what some have said! They are here to get a body, but they are not here to choose, as they have already chosen. For most of them their path ends here, though 5 are untranslated to be allowed into the creations that immediately follow (flow out of) this creation. They become the serpents in those gardens. As Sons of Perdition, they are all eventually cast out into Outer Darkness.

The vast majority of men, being hedonist, embracing the natural man, will rise and remain here, in a world like this one. Far far less women commit the deeds needed to be sent to hell with the men.

So who are these Beings I said that will come around the board and come again into a realm like this world? They are the "Elect". Those who passed this Hell and the Millennial world to come, and keep their covenants, may come again if they choose to continue down the Eternal Path. They are they who are willing to place everything upon the altar, to serve G_d the Father and His Son. They come down here (for Men) they come nine times... three times in three creations, just as JS had taught in the Temple Allegory (the Endowment). Count the fig leaves and think of the knocking and 4th sign.

Why do these Fourth Estate Beings come here? They come to learn to overcome the world. To perfect their eternal natures until the few very few of them pass, (of the men) becoming Messiahs. G_d beget one Son per creation! That is how the G_ds procreate. For a man, he must make the Eternal Sacrifice for his posterity, by the shedding of his own blood.

There is NO such thing as Multiple Mortal Probations, as in you get to keep trying to make it. There is a set path, and those who come down here again, are here as the servants of G_d! They come into a world where G_d cannot personally come, and they do his bidding! If not after coming here, if they say no they they do not want to do this or that, or they have forgotten all and even which team they are on, or they try to run away and hide from G_d... G_d makes it clear that they will fulfill their oaths and covenants or He will take them out of this life, for they serve no purpose otherwise of being here.

This Doctrine was taught by Joseph Smith... it is called "Eternal Lives"! There is a thread I started by that name, years ago, if your interested in knowing more.

Shalom

[Red]

response

This is an interesting idea and one that I've considered a lot. I'd be open to either outcome.

The problem with the pro argument is that it assumes multiple mortal probations would actually result in any change of behavior at all. Perhaps we would just fall short in the same or different ways over and over again.
exactly. You can't learn from something you can't recall.
Another point to consider is that when we die and have the veil removed, at some point we will undoubtedly have a perfect recollection of all our guilt, and probably remember more about who we were before this life and all we've been taught for presumably millions of years. My guess is that this will lead to enormous insight and personal understanding and growth regardless of how this life turned out.

In the end it will ask come down to which law we can actually abide. I don't think anyone that wants to abide all of God's laws won't be able to, because the desire to abide God's laws must be developed in this life. My guess is that everyone who truly wants to abide these laws will be with God, but that many people will be fine and more comfortable abiding lower laws.

[Red]

How horrible would it be to run through the never-ending Choose Your Own Adventure only to never quite remember the bad choices that put you in the bad ending and then have to keep starting over to re-guess? That's a Sisyphean nightmare that seems to negate the purpose of the Atonement. I prefer to believe that God is incredibly merciful so He will forgive me and I don't have to try to figure it out again in another mortality. Besides, I really like my husband. I don't want to start over with someone else.

[DRC53]

Joseph Fielding Smith said "Christ was born a babe at Bethlehem. That is where he got his body, and the only physical body, or body of flesh and bones, that he ever had or ever will have. ... The great works accomplished by our Redeemer before he was born, including the creation of worlds at the command of his Father, were accomplished accomplished by him in his spirit existence."

So, that nixes the idea that Christ lived multiple mortal lives. I doubt then that anyone else lives multiple mortal lives. The idea has no scriptural foundation. In fact, I can see how lucifer would entice people to believe such an idea. Meaning, if I believe that I will have multiple opportunities at mortality, I might choose to sin all I want in this life and then be more serious in another life down the road. Don't get lost looking beyond the mark.

[Matchmaker]

Joseph Fielding Smith said "Christ was born a babe at Bethlehem. That is where he got his body, and the only physical body, or body of flesh and bones, that he ever had or ever will have. ... The great works accomplished by our Redeemer before he was born, including the creation of worlds at the command of his Father, were accomplished accomplished by him in his spirit existence."

So, that nixes the idea that Christ lived multiple mortal lives. I doubt then that anyone else lives multiple mortal lives. The idea has no scriptural foundation. In fact, I can see how lucifer would entice people to believe such an idea. Meaning, if I believe that I will have multiple opportunities at mortality, I might choose to sin all I want in this life and then be more serious in another life down the road. Don't get lost looking beyond the mark.

Please share where you found the Joseph Fielding Smith quote about Christ getting his one body.

[Elizabeth]

Please share where you found the Joseph Fielding Smith quote about Christ getting his one body.

[janderich]

Please share where you found the Joseph Fielding Smith quote about Christ getting his one body.

I checked it, it's in Doctrines of Salvation 1:18, also quoted in We Believe: Doctrines and Principles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints p. 329. Here is a link: https://books.google.com/books?id=-FToi ... 22&f=false However, just as I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God I know that MMP is a true doctrine. I do not know all the in's and out's and much is hidden, but it tastes good, it has become delicious to my soul and I know truth when I have had time to ponder over it.

[janderich]

How horrible would it be to run through the never-ending Choose Your Own Adventure only to never quite remember the bad choices that put you in the bad ending and then have to keep starting over to re-guess? That's a Sisyphean nightmare that seems to negate the purpose of the Atonement. I prefer to believe that God is incredibly merciful so He will forgive me and I don't have to try to figure it out again in another mortality. Besides, I really like my husband. I don't want to start over with someone else.

The concept of multiple probations is not an endless nightmare nor does it negate the purpose of the atonement.

First, there is an end. It comes when we have put that last great enemy, death, under our feet.

Second, there is a purpose. We do not pointlessly repeat, we begin where we left off. We go from one capacity to another learning and growing.

Third, MMP does not negate the atonement. We all need the atonement, including when we repent and when we are resurrected.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ...Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again" (John 3:3-7)

I invite you to more fully consider this doctrine taught by the Savior, Joseph, Brigham, and other early apostles of this dispensation.

[DRC53]

Please share where you found the Joseph Fielding Smith quote about Christ getting his one body.

I checked it, it's in Doctrines of Salvation 1:18, also quoted in We Believe: Doctrines and Principles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints p. 329. Here is a link: https://books.google.com/books?id=-FToi ... 22&f=false However, just as I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God I know that MMP is a true doctrine. I do not know all the in's and out's and much is hidden, but it tastes good, it has become delicious to my soul and I know truth when I have had time to ponder over it.

Thank you for posting the source for the Joseph Fielding Smith quote!

I understand that that's how you feel, but it's directly contrary to what a modern day prophet taught us. It's also contrary to multiple scriptures that plainly teach that this life is our day of probation, our time to prepare to meet God. No matter how I feel about something, if it is inconsistent with the prophet and scripture, than it is incorrect.

[DRC53]

How horrible would it be to run through the never-ending Choose Your Own Adventure only to never quite remember the bad choices that put you in the bad ending and then have to keep starting over to re-guess? That's a Sisyphean nightmare that seems to negate the purpose of the Atonement. I prefer to believe that God is incredibly merciful so He will forgive me and I don't have to try to figure it out again in another mortality. Besides, I really like my husband. I don't want to start over with someone else.

The concept of multiple probations is not an endless nightmare nor does it negate the purpose of the atonement.

First, there is an end. It comes when we have put that last great enemy, death, under our feet.

Second, there is a purpose. We do not pointlessly repeat, we begin where we left off. We go from one capacity to another learning and growing.

Third, MMP does not negate the atonement. We all need the atonement, including when we repent and when we are resurrected.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ...Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again" (John 3:3-7)

I invite you to more fully consider this doctrine taught by the Savior, Joseph, Brigham, and other early apostles of this dispensation.

Jesus was not teaching anything about multiple mortal lives in the John 3:3-7 scriptures. He clearly said that He was referring to being born again through the Spirit, which we're taught means through baptism and the Holy Ghost.

Neither Joseph nor Brigham taught multiple mortal lives. Joseph explicitly stated as referenced at the same citation as the JFS quote, that reincarnation is of the devil.

The closest to what you are talking about would be the Adam God theory. This is what President Kimball had to say:

"We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/11/our- ... g=eng&_r=1

Elder McConkie warned that anyone who believed such a theory didn't deserve to be saved:

"There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.
The devil keeps this heresy alive as a means of obtaining converts to cultism. It is contrary to the whole plan of salvation set forth in the scriptures, and anyone who has read the Book of Moses, and anyone who has received the temple endowment and who yet believes the Adam–God theory does not deserve to be saved.* Those who are so ensnared reject the living prophet and close their ears to the apostles of their day. "We will follow those who went before," they say. And having so determined, they soon are ready to enter polygamous relationships that destroy their souls.
We worship the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost; and Adam is their foremost servant, by whom the peopling of our planet was commenced."

BYU Devotional, June 1, 1980. *This is what McConkie said in the audio recording of this sermon. The print version has subsequently been changed to "has no excuse whatever for being led astray by it."

I found this article which identifies why the Adam God theory is not supported in scripture. It also presents some ideas in an effort to clarify statements Brigham Young, and other early Utah leaders, said on the matter. I'm not necessarily endorsing those explanations, but presenting them for consideration for any who might be interested. The larger point from the article is that the idea that a resurrected being would become mortal again and enter into another probationary state is not supported in the scriptures no matter what quotations might be out there (whether accurately quoted or whether quoted in proper context). http://www.eldenwatson.net/7AdamGod.htm

The larger point is whether we sustain the Prophets, seers, and revelators of our day as the Lord's anointed to lead His Church. It's clear from the link, that anything that Brigham did say was not developed fully, which has led to confusion and misunderstanding.

[Mindfields]

Too bad for those who followed-the-Prophet in Brigham Young's Day.

[Red]

Joseph Fielding Smith said "Christ was born a babe at Bethlehem. That is where he got his body, and the only physical body, or body of flesh and bones, that he ever had or ever will have. ... The great works accomplished by our Redeemer before he was born, including the creation of worlds at the command of his Father, were accomplished accomplished by him in his spirit existence."

So, that nixes the idea that Christ lived multiple mortal lives. I doubt then that anyone else lives multiple mortal lives. The idea has no scriptural foundation. In fact, I can see how lucifer would entice people to believe such an idea. Meaning, if I believe that I will have multiple opportunities at mortality, I might choose to sin all I want in this life and then be more serious in another life down the road. Don't get lost looking beyond the mark.

Agreed. I just can't understand how we can learn more in subsequent mortalities after we've forgotten everything at a rebirth. It makes no sense.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Joseph Fielding Smith said "Christ was born a babe at Bethlehem. That is where he got his body, and the only physical body, or body of flesh and bones, that he ever had or ever will have. ... The great works accomplished by our Redeemer before he was born, including the creation of worlds at the command of his Father, were accomplished accomplished by him in his spirit existence."

So, that nixes the idea that Christ lived multiple mortal lives. I doubt then that anyone else lives multiple mortal lives. The idea has no scriptural foundation. In fact, I can see how lucifer would entice people to believe such an idea. Meaning, if I believe that I will have multiple opportunities at mortality, I might choose to sin all I want in this life and then be more serious in another life down the road. Don't get lost looking beyond the mark.

We will just have to agree to disagree! Jesus Christ (Yeshua Ha Mashiach) was Uriel in the Heavens, and in the beginning of this Creation he was Noah's Son Shem (Melchizedek). It is very interesting to find that some Christian who have kept this knowledge even throughout their apostasy over two millennium, and yet those who claim they posses all the Keys of Priesthood (of the Melchizedek Priesthood), cannot reveal or testify as to even who He (Melchizedek) was, and why we call the Priesthood of the Son of G_d after this man.

Maybe a few Latter Day Saints who have read their Standard Works, have noticed that Joseph Smith in the (JST) Joseph Smith Translation of the Holy Bible (also called the Inspired Translation) added 25 verses to Genesis 14. As I recall, it was added to the current Standard Work in footnotes in 1978 edition by the current Brethren, so one can say they are following the right leaders...right? In it, Joseph Smith adds that Melchizedek was the Prince of Peace and the King of Heaven. He established Salem (the City of Peace) which later became New Salem or Jerusalem (the New City of Peace).

My question is, so we just call anyone the 'Prince of Peace' or the 'King of Heaven'? And if not, then maybe Joseph Smith knew something most people who have not taken the time to study out such truths for themselves and have obtained their own witnesses as to who Melchizedek was, that they have no idea as to the fact that the Messiah was born into this creation twice!!! And because such ignorance exist in many, they cannot explain what Joseph Smith meant when he recorded 'Eternal Lives' (plural) in D&C Section 132. They are like the Jew who know the word 'Elohiem' means 'the G_ds' (plural) yet close a blind eye the truth, so they can keep their preconceived notions of their being only One G_d. I am not saying those who have not found this truth yet, are a fool... all must learn line upon line, precept upon precept, but the man who willfully closes a blind eye, after they have had the truth revealed unto them, are upon that wide gate that leads to the path of apostasy.

Who here thinks 'Joseph Fielding Smith' had never read this section of the JST? If you do, maybe you might also want to get a copy of classic fairy tales by Hans Christian Andersen, The Brothers Grimm, Charles Perrault, Aesop and others, and add it to your excepted books that you consider as Holy Scriptures.

[Robin Hood]

We will just have to agree to disagree! Jesus Christ (Yeshua Ha Mashiach) was Uriel in the Heavens, and in the beginning of this Creation he was Noah's Son Shem (Melchizedek). It is very interesting to find that some Christian who have kept this knowledge even throughout their apostasy over two millennium, and yet those who claim they posses all the Keys of Priesthood (of the Melchizedek Priesthood), cannot reveal or testify as to even who He (Melchizedek) was, and why we call the Priesthood of the Son of G_d after this man.

Maybe a few Latter Day Saints who have read their Standard Works, have noticed that Joseph Smith in the (JST) Joseph Smith Translation of the Holy Bible (also called the Inspired Translation) added 25 verses to Genesis 14. As I recall, it was added to the current Standard Work in footnotes in 1978 edition by the current Brethren, so one can say they are following the right leaders...right? In it, Joseph Smith adds that Melchizedek was the Prince of Peace and the King of Heaven. He established Salem (the City of Peace) which later became New Salem or Jerusalem (the New City of Peace).

My question is, so we just call anyone the 'Prince of Peace' or the 'King of Heaven'? And if not, then maybe Joseph Smith knew something most people who have not taken the time to study out such truths for themselves and have obtained their own witnesses as to who Melchizedek was, that they have no idea as to the fact that the Messiah was born into this creation twice!!! And because such ignorance exist in many, they cannot explain what Joseph Smith meant when he recorded 'Eternal Lives' (plural) in D&C Section 132. They are like the Jew who know the word 'Elohiem' means 'the G_ds' (plural) yet close a blind eye the truth, so they can keep their preconceived notions of their being only One G_d. I am not saying those who have not found this truth yet, are a fool... all must learn line upon line, precept upon precept, but the man who willfully closes a blind eye, after they have had the truth revealed unto them, are upon that wide gate that leads to the path of apostasy.

Who here thinks 'Joseph Fielding Smith' had never read this section of the JST? If you do, maybe you might also want to get a copy of classic fairy tales by Hans Christian Andersen, The Brothers Grimm, Charles Perrault, Aesop and others, and add it to your excepted books that you consider as Holy Scriptures.

Thank you Kingdom of Zion.
That is very interesting.
I will have to study this subject further.

[janderich]

I checked it, it's in Doctrines of Salvation 1:18, also quoted in We Believe: Doctrines and Principles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints p. 329. Here is a link: https://books.google.com/books?id=-FToi ... 22&f=false However, just as I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God I know that MMP is a true doctrine. I do not know all the in's and out's and much is hidden, but it tastes good, it has become delicious to my soul and I know truth when I have had time to ponder over it.

Thank you for posting the source for the Joseph Fielding Smith quote!

I understand that that's how you feel, but it's directly contrary to what a modern day prophet taught us. It's also contrary to multiple scriptures that plainly teach that this life is our day of probation, our time to prepare to meet God. No matter how I feel about something, if it is inconsistent with the prophet and scripture, than it is incorrect.

But not contrary to what early prophets and apostles taught us.

"What I do not to-day, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take. ...This day's work is typical of this probation, and the sleep of every night is typical of death, and rising in the morning is typical of the resurrection. Brethren, this is the course we have to take; it is a progressive work from one day to another, and from one week to another; and if we advance this year, we are so far advanced in preparation to better go through the next year." (Heber C. Kimball, JD:4-329)

...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. ...It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." (Joseph Smith, King Follet Discourse)

“As man now is, God once was:
As God now is, man may be." (Lorenzo Snow, In Eliza R. Snow Smith, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow)

And thus, all the different portions of the earth have been and will be disposed of to the lawful heirs; while those who cannot prove thier heirship to be legal, or who cannot prove that they have received any portion of the earth by promise, will be cast out into some other kngdom or world, where, if they ever get an inheritance, they will have to earn it by keeping the law of meekness during another probation. (Orson Pratt, JD 1:332-333)

[janderich]

How horrible would it be to run through the never-ending Choose Your Own Adventure only to never quite remember the bad choices that put you in the bad ending and then have to keep starting over to re-guess? That's a Sisyphean nightmare that seems to negate the purpose of the Atonement. I prefer to believe that God is incredibly merciful so He will forgive me and I don't have to try to figure it out again in another mortality. Besides, I really like my husband. I don't want to start over with someone else.

The concept of multiple probations is not an endless nightmare nor does it negate the purpose of the atonement.

First, there is an end. It comes when we have put that last great enemy, death, under our feet.

Second, there is a purpose. We do not pointlessly repeat, we begin where we left off. We go from one capacity to another learning and growing.

Third, MMP does not negate the atonement. We all need the atonement, including when we repent and when we are resurrected.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ...Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again" (John 3:3-7)

I invite you to more fully consider this doctrine taught by the Savior, Joseph, Brigham, and other early apostles of this dispensation.

Jesus was not teaching anything about multiple mortal lives in the John 3:3-7 scriptures. He clearly said that He was referring to being born again through the Spirit, which we're taught means through baptism and the Holy Ghost.

Neither Joseph nor Brigham taught multiple mortal lives. Joseph explicitly stated as referenced at the same citation as the JFS quote, that reincarnation is of the devil.

So you believe that Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews, steeped in symbolism, was some sort of fool? That he actually thought Jesus was telling him to enter into his mother's womb a second time when he was just talking about a spiritual change? I invite you to reconsider what you believe and why you believe it.

Here is Brigham Young on the matter: "Christ's words to Nicodemus seem to have troubled him considerably; he could not understand this New Birth. ...To get language to convey my ideas, perhaps would be difficult; but I will try to make you understand me. Nicodemus comes and says how can I be born again? How can I understand this new birth? I am old, I cannot be born again, but says Jesus, if you and the whole Jewish nation understood things in heaven, you would see how you, and all Israel could be born again... It amounts to this; a man must be converted from error to truth, born again to see the truth. If he has imbibed error, and is born again, and then imbibes erors again, he will be like the old lady, who was about 80 years old, and who had to be born over and over and over again, on account of her man [blank] and I don't know but he would want to be born over and over and over again. (The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, Vol. 2 p 871-874)

Joseph Smith did not say reincarnation was of the devil. Although, I agree with you that reincarnation as it is taught is not true doctrine. Joseph instead was speaking of a doctrine taught by a a man called Joshua who believed that the scheme of eternal life consisted of a person's soul transmigrating from father to son. It is regarding this doctrine that Joseph said, "I told him that his doctrine was of the devil, that he was in reality in possession of a wicked and depraved spirit" (TPJS p 105). When I speak of MMP I am talking of our same spirit coming down again after a long time in the eternal world to face challenges again. Not transmigration of souls.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Thank you Kingdom of Zion.
That is very interesting.
I will have to study this subject further.

Your welcome Robin Hood.

Here is the quote: http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/jst/4

JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION
GENESIS 14: 25-40

Melchizedek’s great ministry is mentioned; the powers and blessings of the Melchizedek Priesthood are described. (compare Genesis 14)

25 And Melchizedek lifted up his voice and blessed Abram.
26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;
29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.
30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;
31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.
32 And men having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven.
33 And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order; therefore he obtained peace in Salem, and was called the Prince of peace.
34 And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world;
35 And hath said, and sworn with an oath, that the heavens and the earth should come together; and the sons of God should be tried so as by fire.
36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the King of peace.
37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;
38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.
39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.
40 And it came to pass, that God blessed Abram, and gave unto him riches, and honor, and lands for an everlasting possession; according to the covenant which he had made, and according to the blessing wherewith Melchizedek had blessed him.

Shalom

[DRC53]

I believe the following is a fairly accurate statement about LDS doctrine notwithstanding any twisted spin any of y'all might try to put on it...

https://www.mormonwiki.com/Mormonism_and_Reincarnation

[Kingdom of ZION]

I believe the following is a fairly accurate statement about LDS doctrine notwithstanding any twisted spin any of y'all might try to put on it...

https://www.mormonwiki.com/Mormonism_and_Reincarnation

Yes, your right... they know very little about the Mysteries of the Kingdom.

They stand right where Nicodemus did in the Messiah's day. The Messiah tried to explain to Nicodemus what being "Born Again" was (the same topic we are discussing here), and after Nicodemus showed forth that he did not have a clue, the Messiah exclaimed to Nicodemus: "Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? John 3:10, KJV

If you choose to embrace the current LDS understanding, that fine, were not all at the same place in the Path. And most are not on the same Path that leads to such understanding anyway. In Matthew 7:13, it is called 'the Gate' rather than 'the Path'.

[Kingdom of ZION]

The Transmigration of Souls is where a man dies and he then enter into his son's body and he is now the son. Joseph Smith said that this was a false doctrine. Anciently, there were those who believed this too. When John the Baptist died, some wondered if the Messiah was John, alive again. This was not true!

However, when the Messiah was speaking of Elijah, He said that John the Baptist came and they knew him not, pointing out that he was actually Elijah, of old. That is what Malachi prophesied and the Messiah also taught.

Some here will say, "Oh He was only speaking of him coming in the spirit of such." They usually then go on to point out that Elijah only came to JS and OC in 1836 in the Kirtland Temple as a spirit." You are totally free to believe that! However, go to and read all of the sermons that JS gave after 1836 where he spoke of Elijah, and notice without exception how he always spoke about Elijah mission and calling being a future event. He said that Elijah would set all of the Ordinances of the house of the Lord in order, and that he would restore a Priesthood that Elijah was the last one to hold (the keys to) upon the earth.

If JS restored the fullness of the Priesthood, then what Priesthood is missing? (I will tell you)... it is that Priesthood that has the power to administer Translation (Patriarchal Priesthood)!

Shalom