Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

[tribrac]

So I wish one of you really ambitious people would make a thread listing all of the BoM models including a detailed analysis of each models strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks in advance.

I started a partial list for you:
Heartland
Great Lakes
Baja California
Mexico
Meso America
and the good old Two Continent
I also read a pretty good one about Chille & Peru.

Any others?

[larsenb]

So I wish one of you really ambitious people would make a thread listing all of the BoM models including a detailed analysis of each models strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks in advance.

I started a partial list for you:
Heartland
Great Lakes
Baja California
Mexico
Meso America
and the good old Two Continent
I also read a pretty good one about Chille & Peru.

Any others?

Actually, something like that is being done . . . now . . . as we speak.

There is a new project with its own website called Book of Mormon Central located at: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . They are working on the very thing you want to see, among many other projects.

Stay tuned.

[tribrac]

So I wish one of you really ambitious people would make a thread listing all of the BoM models including a detailed analysis of each models strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks in advance.

I started a partial list for you:
Heartland
Great Lakes
Baja California
Mexico
Meso America
and the good old Two Continent
I also read a pretty good one about Chille & Peru.

Any others?

Actually, something like that is being done . . . now . . . as we speak.

There is a new project with its own website called Book of Mormon Central located at: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . They are working on the very thing you want to see, among many other projects.

Stay tuned.

Well, then Thanks.

Interesting site.

"It [Sidon]flowed in a northerly direction. There is never a mention of the mouth of the river. So it is unclear wether it came flowed to the sea on the east or the west."

[ripliancum]

So I wish one of you really ambitious people would make a thread listing all of the BoM models including a detailed analysis of each models strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks in advance.

I started a partial list for you:
Heartland
Great Lakes
Baja California
Mexico
Meso America
and the good old Two Continent
I also read a pretty good one about Chille & Peru.

Any others?

Actually, something like that is being done . . . now . . . as we speak.

There is a new project with its own website called Book of Mormon Central located at: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . They are working on the very thing you want to see, among many other projects.

Stay tuned.

Well, then Thanks.

Interesting site.

"It [Sidon]flowed in a northerly direction. There is never a mention of the mouth of the river. So it is unclear wether it came flowed to the sea on the east or the west."

The river Sidon is most likely the Mississippi it flows in a north south direction. There is a second river mentioned that flows from east to west. The river Sidon flows into the South Sea.

[ripliancum]

So I wish one of you really ambitious people would make a thread listing all of the BoM models including a detailed analysis of each models strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks in advance.

I started a partial list for you:
Heartland
Great Lakes
Baja California
Mexico
Meso America
and the good old Two Continent
I also read a pretty good one about Chille & Peru.

Any others?

Actually, something like that is being done . . . now . . . as we speak.

There is a new project with its own website called Book of Mormon Central located at: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . They are working on the very thing you want to see, among many other projects.

Stay tuned.

Book of Mormon Central is nothing more than a pro meso American website and it also does not have the most correct model the six sea model.

[ripliancum]

. . .
I should also add guess what settlers found in the North countries and in areas away from the Mississippi (river sidon) Piles of bones. Indian legend confirm the extermination of a white race of Indian in the state of New York and the removal from the land of Nephi. . . . . .

Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief:

“From the earliest knowledge the white men have possessed of the country of western New York, the Painted Post has been noted as a geographical landmark. When first traversed by the white men, a large oaken post stood at the spot, which has retained the name to this day. It was painted in the Indian manner, and was guarded as a monument by the Indiana, who renewed it as often as it showed evidence of going to decay. Tradition says it was a monument of great antiquity, marking the spot of a great and bloody battle, according to some statements. According to others, it was erected to perpetuate the memory of some great war-chief.” (My opinion is the great Chief is Mormon I can’t prove it though) (Painted Post, New York is located about 70 miles away from Hill Cumorah) (Stone 1838 pg. 318)

In reference to Buffalo, New York in close proximity to what is the narrow neck of land and the Hill Cumorah:

“Tradition fixes upon this spot as the scene of the final and most bloody conflict between the Iroquois and the ”Gah-kwas” or Eries, — a tradition which has been supposed to derive some sanction from the number of fragments of decayed human bones which are scattered over the area.” (Squier 1849)

Mass Burial Pits and Battlegrounds
Two thirds of the Book of Mormon is about wars between the Lamanites and Nephites. Large bone pits and piles were found in the state of New York and other states. These large bone pits are supportive evidence of the battles that took place between Nephites and Lamanites.

In the last battles Mormon states that bodies of the Nephites were heaped into piles (Mormon 2:15).

New York State:

“It was called the “Bone Fort,” from the circumstance that the early settlers found within it a mound, six feet in height by thirty at the base, which was entirely made up of human bones slightly covered with earth… The popular opinion concerning this accumulation is, that it contained the bones of the slain, thus heaped together after some severe battle.” (Squier 1849)

Kentucky:

“Half a mile from this place, at the foot of the mountain, in a large cave full of human bones, perhaps several wagon loads; some of which are small, and others very large” (Haywood 1823 pg. 153)

New York State:

“The bones were of individuals of both sexes and of all ages. Among them were a few fetal bones. Many of the skulls bore marks of violence, leading to the belief that they were broken before burial.” (Squier 1849)

Illinois:

“Mr. Ramey, the owner of the mound, speaks about digging in one part of the field and finding heaps of bones eight feet deep, and says that the bones are everywhere present.” (Peet 1892 pg. 163)

New York State:

“Human bones have been discovered beneath the leaves; and in nearly every part of the trench skeletons of adults of both sexes, of children, and infants, have been found, covered only by the vegetable accumulations. They seem to have been thrown together promiscuously.” (Squier 1849)

New York State:

“Among them may be mentioned the “bone-pits,” or deposits of human bones. One is found near the village of Brownsville, on Black River. It is described as a pit, ten or twelve feet square, by perhaps four feet deep, in which are promiscuously heaped together a large number of human skeletons.” (Squier 1849)
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... s-and.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A White Race and its Extermination
One of the founding Native American DNA markers is a rare Caucasian dna marker found only in North American Indians. As to why this dna Marker is rare is best explained by Native American traditional legends and the Book of Mormon. This white race of Indian was exterminated off the face of North America leaving behind only a rare footprint on the North American continent.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... an_12.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Concerning Hattera Indians of North Carolina:

“These Hattera tell us, that several of their Ancestors were white People, and could talk in a Book, as we do; the Truth of which is confirmed by gray eyes being found frequently amongst these Indians, and no others.”
(John Lawson 1709 pg. 62)

The Nephites who I believe had Caucasian DNA were killed off by the Lamanites. The North American Indians have a legend of a foreign white race being completely killed or removed from certain areas.

Captain Brant Thayendanegea was a well-known Iroquois and Mohawk leader and Chief who sided with the British during the Revolutionary war. He was born of Iroquois parents who converted to Christianity. They gave him a Christian name Joseph Brant. The quote is from his biography:

“I was curious to learn in the course of my conversations with Captain Brant (Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief), what information he could give me respecting the tumuli (mounds) which are found on and near the margin of the rivers and lakes, from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi. He stated, in reply, that the subject had long been agitated, but yet remained in some obscurity. A tradition, he said, prevailed among the different nations of Indians through-out that whole extensive range of country, and had been handed down time immemorial, that in an age long gone by, there came white men from a foreign country, and by consent of the Indians established trading-houses and settlements where these tumuli (mounds) are found. A friendly intercourse was continued for several years; many of the white men brought their wives, and had children born to them; and additions to their numbers were made yearly from their own country. These circumstances at length gave rise to jealousies among the Indians, and fears began to be entertained in regard to the increasing numbers, wealth, and ulterior views of the new comers; apprehending that becoming strong, they might one day seize upon the country as their own. A secret council, composed of the chiefs of all the different nations from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi, was therefore convoked; the result of which, after long deliberation, was a resolution that on a certain night designated for that purpose, all their white neighbors, men, women and children, should be exterminated.“
(Stone 1838 pg. 484)


“Here the Indians tell us there was a war in early times, against an Indian town, traces of which are yet visible, corn pits, etc. This was inhabited by a distinct nation, neither Iroquois nor Delawares, who spoke a peculiar language, and were called Tehotitachse, against them the Five Nations warred and routed them out; the Cayugas for a time held a number captive, but the nation and the language are now exterminated and extinct.”
(Murray 1908 pg. 46)


Natchez Indians of Mississippi, in reference to an ancient race of Indian who preceded them and eventually were defeated:


“I did not fail to ask him who these warriors of fire were. “They were,” said he, “bearded men, white but swarthy… They had come on floating villages from the side where the sun rises. They conquered the ancients of the country, of whom they killed as many as there are spears of grass in the Prairies, and in the beginning they were good friends of our brothers, but ultimately they made them submit as well as the ancients of the country, as our Suns (leaders) had foreseen and had foretold to them.””
(Swanton 1909 pg. 184)


“There is a dim but persistent tradition of a strange white race preceding the Cherokee, some of the stories even going so far as to locate their former settlements and to identify them as the authors of the ancient works found in the country. The earliest reference appears to be that of Barton in 1797, on the statement of a gentleman whom he quotes as a valuable authority upon the southern tribes. “The Cherokee tell us, that when they first arrived in the country which they inhabit, they found it possessed by certain ‘moon-eyed people,’ who could not see in the day-time. These wretches they expelled.” He seems to consider them an albino race.* Haywood, twenty-six years later, says that the invading Cherokee found “white people” near the head of the Little Tennessee, with forts extending thence down the Tennessee as far as Chickamauga creek. He gives the location of three of these forts. The Cherokee made war against them and drove them to the mouth of Big Chickamauga creek, where they entered into a treaty and agreed to remove if permitted to depart in peace. Permission being granted, they abandoned the country. Elsewhere he speaks of this extirpated white race as having extended into Kentucky and probably also into western Tennessee, according to the concurrent traditions of different tribes.”
(Mooney 1902 pg. 22)


“Did not these skeletons belong to persons of the same race with those white people, who were extirpated in part, and in part driven from Kentucky, and probably also from West Tennessee, as Indian tradition reports?”
(Haywood 1823 pg. 166)

“Mr. Thomas Bodley was informed by Indians of different tribes northwest of the Ohio, that they had understood from their old men, and that it had been a tradition among their several nations, that Kentucky had been settled by whites, and that they had been exterminated by war. They were of opinion that the old fortifications, now to be seen in Kentucky and Ohio, were the productions of those white inhabitants. Wappockanitta, a Shawnee chief, near a hundred and twenty years old, living on the Auglaze River, confirmed the above tradition.”
(M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)

These stories, as anecdotal as some of them may be, are very interesting.

But I think a trap many people get into is to identify these 'white people' and bone heaps with Nephites/Lamanites, per se.

We simply don't know all that has happened in this hemisphere. There is fairly strong evidence that the continental US and elsewhere have been visited multiple times by various people from the Middle/Near East, Europe and elsewhere (VIkings, a case in point . . . just how far afield did they get??)

Berry Fell has transcribed a Mic Mac chant into phonetics and identified the language as Ptolomaic Greek, and speculated that the Mic Mac ancestors were from this group, and who had brought an Egyptian script with them (Ptolomaic => Egyptian). They had lost the meaning of the chant, according to Fell. This could account for a lot of the Greek crosses, etc., and other Greek influences/names you cite.

Ask yourself, how did the Mulekites arrive here? The best speculation I've seen is that they hired Phoenicians to take them here. There is good evidence for a Phoenician presence in various part of the New World. Next question is: where else did they get in the New World, and how often.

Fell has also identified many Libyan rock chambers and inscriptions in the New England area, which Libyan archaeologists have identified has having been produced by "their boys". The Libyan influence could probably be related to the Phoenicians.

Fell has identified many Ogam scripts in various part of the continental US. He notes the existence of an extensive Tifinik (sp?) script in Ontario, Canada. The same script is also found in Scandinavia and in North Africa of all places. Explain that.

Scott Wolter presents good evidence for the presence of Templers in what is now the US and Canada, probably dating to the early 1400's. He has also presented evidence that late Romans were here, and has even identified carvings here that fit the Mithraic religion. Mithraism was very prominent in late Roman times.

Lucy Thomas, a Yurok (Klamath) Indian, in her book: To the American Indian", tells how her tribe encountered whites when they first came into the country. She also says the whites told them that when they first came into the country, there were giant animals present (Pleistocene mega fauna, anybody?) Lucy was a Yurok Indian priestess, writing after the turn of the last century.

The point being that the stories you relate, don't necessarily describe Nephites vs. Lamanites. You've also got a lot of stories about giants existing here as well as in Mexico.

These native American beliefs fit right along with the Book of Mormon. So does their dna. The only place you can find DNA from the middles east are in these tribes.(North American Tribes)

[ripliancum]

. . .
I should also add guess what settlers found in the North countries and in areas away from the Mississippi (river sidon) Piles of bones. Indian legend confirm the extermination of a white race of Indian in the state of New York and the removal from the land of Nephi. . . . . .

Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief:

“From the earliest knowledge the white men have possessed of the country of western New York, the Painted Post has been noted as a geographical landmark. When first traversed by the white men, a large oaken post stood at the spot, which has retained the name to this day. It was painted in the Indian manner, and was guarded as a monument by the Indiana, who renewed it as often as it showed evidence of going to decay. Tradition says it was a monument of great antiquity, marking the spot of a great and bloody battle, according to some statements. According to others, it was erected to perpetuate the memory of some great war-chief.” (My opinion is the great Chief is Mormon I can’t prove it though) (Painted Post, New York is located about 70 miles away from Hill Cumorah) (Stone 1838 pg. 318)

In reference to Buffalo, New York in close proximity to what is the narrow neck of land and the Hill Cumorah:

“Tradition fixes upon this spot as the scene of the final and most bloody conflict between the Iroquois and the ”Gah-kwas” or Eries, — a tradition which has been supposed to derive some sanction from the number of fragments of decayed human bones which are scattered over the area.” (Squier 1849)

Mass Burial Pits and Battlegrounds
Two thirds of the Book of Mormon is about wars between the Lamanites and Nephites. Large bone pits and piles were found in the state of New York and other states. These large bone pits are supportive evidence of the battles that took place between Nephites and Lamanites.

In the last battles Mormon states that bodies of the Nephites were heaped into piles (Mormon 2:15).

New York State:

“It was called the “Bone Fort,” from the circumstance that the early settlers found within it a mound, six feet in height by thirty at the base, which was entirely made up of human bones slightly covered with earth… The popular opinion concerning this accumulation is, that it contained the bones of the slain, thus heaped together after some severe battle.” (Squier 1849)

Kentucky:

“Half a mile from this place, at the foot of the mountain, in a large cave full of human bones, perhaps several wagon loads; some of which are small, and others very large” (Haywood 1823 pg. 153)

New York State:

“The bones were of individuals of both sexes and of all ages. Among them were a few fetal bones. Many of the skulls bore marks of violence, leading to the belief that they were broken before burial.” (Squier 1849)

Illinois:

“Mr. Ramey, the owner of the mound, speaks about digging in one part of the field and finding heaps of bones eight feet deep, and says that the bones are everywhere present.” (Peet 1892 pg. 163)

New York State:

“Human bones have been discovered beneath the leaves; and in nearly every part of the trench skeletons of adults of both sexes, of children, and infants, have been found, covered only by the vegetable accumulations. They seem to have been thrown together promiscuously.” (Squier 1849)

New York State:

“Among them may be mentioned the “bone-pits,” or deposits of human bones. One is found near the village of Brownsville, on Black River. It is described as a pit, ten or twelve feet square, by perhaps four feet deep, in which are promiscuously heaped together a large number of human skeletons.” (Squier 1849)
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... s-and.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A White Race and its Extermination
One of the founding Native American DNA markers is a rare Caucasian dna marker found only in North American Indians. As to why this dna Marker is rare is best explained by Native American traditional legends and the Book of Mormon. This white race of Indian was exterminated off the face of North America leaving behind only a rare footprint on the North American continent.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... an_12.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Concerning Hattera Indians of North Carolina:

“These Hattera tell us, that several of their Ancestors were white People, and could talk in a Book, as we do; the Truth of which is confirmed by gray eyes being found frequently amongst these Indians, and no others.”
(John Lawson 1709 pg. 62)

The Nephites who I believe had Caucasian DNA were killed off by the Lamanites. The North American Indians have a legend of a foreign white race being completely killed or removed from certain areas.

Captain Brant Thayendanegea was a well-known Iroquois and Mohawk leader and Chief who sided with the British during the Revolutionary war. He was born of Iroquois parents who converted to Christianity. They gave him a Christian name Joseph Brant. The quote is from his biography:

“I was curious to learn in the course of my conversations with Captain Brant (Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief), what information he could give me respecting the tumuli (mounds) which are found on and near the margin of the rivers and lakes, from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi. He stated, in reply, that the subject had long been agitated, but yet remained in some obscurity. A tradition, he said, prevailed among the different nations of Indians through-out that whole extensive range of country, and had been handed down time immemorial, that in an age long gone by, there came white men from a foreign country, and by consent of the Indians established trading-houses and settlements where these tumuli (mounds) are found. A friendly intercourse was continued for several years; many of the white men brought their wives, and had children born to them; and additions to their numbers were made yearly from their own country. These circumstances at length gave rise to jealousies among the Indians, and fears began to be entertained in regard to the increasing numbers, wealth, and ulterior views of the new comers; apprehending that becoming strong, they might one day seize upon the country as their own. A secret council, composed of the chiefs of all the different nations from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi, was therefore convoked; the result of which, after long deliberation, was a resolution that on a certain night designated for that purpose, all their white neighbors, men, women and children, should be exterminated.“
(Stone 1838 pg. 484)


“Here the Indians tell us there was a war in early times, against an Indian town, traces of which are yet visible, corn pits, etc. This was inhabited by a distinct nation, neither Iroquois nor Delawares, who spoke a peculiar language, and were called Tehotitachse, against them the Five Nations warred and routed them out; the Cayugas for a time held a number captive, but the nation and the language are now exterminated and extinct.”
(Murray 1908 pg. 46)


Natchez Indians of Mississippi, in reference to an ancient race of Indian who preceded them and eventually were defeated:


“I did not fail to ask him who these warriors of fire were. “They were,” said he, “bearded men, white but swarthy… They had come on floating villages from the side where the sun rises. They conquered the ancients of the country, of whom they killed as many as there are spears of grass in the Prairies, and in the beginning they were good friends of our brothers, but ultimately they made them submit as well as the ancients of the country, as our Suns (leaders) had foreseen and had foretold to them.””
(Swanton 1909 pg. 184)


“There is a dim but persistent tradition of a strange white race preceding the Cherokee, some of the stories even going so far as to locate their former settlements and to identify them as the authors of the ancient works found in the country. The earliest reference appears to be that of Barton in 1797, on the statement of a gentleman whom he quotes as a valuable authority upon the southern tribes. “The Cherokee tell us, that when they first arrived in the country which they inhabit, they found it possessed by certain ‘moon-eyed people,’ who could not see in the day-time. These wretches they expelled.” He seems to consider them an albino race.* Haywood, twenty-six years later, says that the invading Cherokee found “white people” near the head of the Little Tennessee, with forts extending thence down the Tennessee as far as Chickamauga creek. He gives the location of three of these forts. The Cherokee made war against them and drove them to the mouth of Big Chickamauga creek, where they entered into a treaty and agreed to remove if permitted to depart in peace. Permission being granted, they abandoned the country. Elsewhere he speaks of this extirpated white race as having extended into Kentucky and probably also into western Tennessee, according to the concurrent traditions of different tribes.”
(Mooney 1902 pg. 22)


“Did not these skeletons belong to persons of the same race with those white people, who were extirpated in part, and in part driven from Kentucky, and probably also from West Tennessee, as Indian tradition reports?”
(Haywood 1823 pg. 166)

“Mr. Thomas Bodley was informed by Indians of different tribes northwest of the Ohio, that they had understood from their old men, and that it had been a tradition among their several nations, that Kentucky had been settled by whites, and that they had been exterminated by war. They were of opinion that the old fortifications, now to be seen in Kentucky and Ohio, were the productions of those white inhabitants. Wappockanitta, a Shawnee chief, near a hundred and twenty years old, living on the Auglaze River, confirmed the above tradition.”
(M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)

These stories, as anecdotal as some of them may be, are very interesting.

But I think a trap many people get into is to identify these 'white people' and bone heaps with Nephites/Lamanites, per se.

We simply don't know all that has happened in this hemisphere. There is fairly strong evidence that the continental US and elsewhere have been visited multiple times by various people from the Middle/Near East, Europe and elsewhere (VIkings, a case in point . . . just how far afield did they get??)

Berry Fell has transcribed a Mic Mac chant into phonetics and identified the language as Ptolomaic Greek, and speculated that the Mic Mac ancestors were from this group, and who had brought an Egyptian script with them (Ptolomaic => Egyptian). They had lost the meaning of the chant, according to Fell. This could account for a lot of the Greek crosses, etc., and other Greek influences/names you cite.

Ask yourself, how did the Mulekites arrive here? The best speculation I've seen is that they hired Phoenicians to take them here. There is good evidence for a Phoenician presence in various part of the New World. Next question is: where else did they get in the New World, and how often.

Fell has also identified many Libyan rock chambers and inscriptions in the New England area, which Libyan archaeologists have identified has having been produced by "their boys". The Libyan influence could probably be related to the Phoenicians.

Fell has identified many Ogam scripts in various part of the continental US. He notes the existence of an extensive Tifinik (sp?) script in Ontario, Canada. The same script is also found in Scandinavia and in North Africa of all places. Explain that.

Scott Wolter presents good evidence for the presence of Templers in what is now the US and Canada, probably dating to the early 1400's. He has also presented evidence that late Romans were here, and has even identified carvings here that fit the Mithraic religion. Mithraism was very prominent in late Roman times.

Lucy Thomas, a Yurok (Klamath) Indian, in her book: To the American Indian", tells how her tribe encountered whites when they first came into the country. She also says the whites told them that when they first came into the country, there were giant animals present (Pleistocene mega fauna, anybody?) Lucy was a Yurok Indian priestess, writing after the turn of the last century.

The point being that the stories you relate, don't necessarily describe Nephites vs. Lamanites. You've also got a lot of stories about giants existing here as well as in Mexico.

The Hopewell who Joseph Smith said their mounds were the Nephites also have all the necessary artifacts like breastplates clothing etc.

Breastplates
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ce-of.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Clothing
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ttons.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

iron tools
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... tools.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

swords
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... words.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trade and horses
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... hways.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[larsenb]

So I wish one of you really ambitious people would make a thread listing all of the BoM models including a detailed analysis of each models strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks in advance.

I started a partial list for you:
Heartland
Great Lakes
Baja California
Mexico
Meso America
and the good old Two Continent
I also read a pretty good one about Chille & Peru.

Any others?

Actually, something like that is being done . . . now . . . as we speak.

There is a new project with its own website called Book of Mormon Central located at: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . They are working on the very thing you want to see, among many other projects.

Stay tuned.

Well, then Thanks.

Interesting site.

"It [Sidon]flowed in a northerly direction. There is never a mention of the mouth of the river. So it is unclear wether it came flowed to the sea on the east or the west."

The river Sidon is most likely the Mississippi it flows in a north south direction. There is a second river mentioned that flows from east to west. The river Sidon flows into the South Sea.

You''re one of the most impermeable people I've ever run across. No rational argument or solid evidence that contradicts your views affects you at all. Oh, well.

[ripliancum]

Actually, something like that is being done . . . now . . . as we speak.

There is a new project with its own website called Book of Mormon Central located at: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . They are working on the very thing you want to see, among many other projects.

Stay tuned.

Well, then Thanks.

Interesting site.

"It [Sidon]flowed in a northerly direction. There is never a mention of the mouth of the river. So it is unclear wether it came flowed to the sea on the east or the west."

The river Sidon is most likely the Mississippi it flows in a north south direction. There is a second river mentioned that flows from east to west. The river Sidon flows into the South Sea.

You''re one of the most impermeable people I've ever run across. No rational argument or solid evidence that contradicts your views affects you at all. Oh, well.

Confirmed artifacts by non lds archeologist

Hand written letters by Joseph smith

Scriptures in doctrine and covenants that say Missouri is the lamanite border

Historical accounts of Native American beliefs that support the Book of Mormon record.


What evidence do you have ??????????

[ripliancum]

The river Sidon flows into the south sea or gulf of Mexico.

[Silver]

The river Sidon flows into the south sea or gulf of Mexico.

OK, please, just give us one scripture in the BoM that says that.

[ripliancum]

The river Sidon flows into the south sea or gulf of Mexico.

OK, please, just give us one scripture in the BoM that says that.

The Book of Mormon never states which sea it emptied into. But we do know that it flowed from North to south or south to North. Given that its a safe assumption it flowed into the South Sea or North Sea. Given D&c 54:8 places Lamanite borders in Missouri and letters and statements by Joseph Smith placing Book of Mormon geography in the east region of the united states its. Its safe to say the river Sidon is the Mississippi river and the Gulf of Mexico is the South Sea mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

[Silver]

The river Sidon flows into the south sea or gulf of Mexico.

OK, please, just give us one scripture in the BoM that says that.

The Book of Mormon never states which sea it emptied into. But we do know that it flowed from North to south or south to North. Given that its a safe assumption it flowed into the South Sea or North Sea. Given D&c 54:8 places Lamanite borders in Missouri and letters and statements by Joseph Smith placing Book of Mormon geography in the east region of the united states its. Its safe to say the river Sidon is the Mississippi river and the Gulf of Mexico is the South Sea mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

That's a stretch. An uncomfortable stretch. Here's how easy it is to upset the basis of your claim.

I just did a simple Google search for "1831 indian reservations" and found this:
"The Cherokee went to the Supreme Court again in 1831. This time they based their appeal on an 1830 Georgia law which prohibited whites from living on Indian territory after March 31, 1831, without a license from the state. The state legislature had written this law to justify removing white missionaries who were helping the Indians resist removal. The court this time decided in favor of the Cherokee. It stated that the Cherokee had the right to self-government, and declared Georgia's extension of state law over them to be unconstitutional. The state of Georgia refused to abide by the Court decision, however, and President Jackson refused to enforce the law. " (end quote)

Why 1831? Because that's the year the prophet Joseph received the revelation in Section 54. In 1831, yes, there were definitely native Americans living out west, but how do account for all the others living in the eastern portion of the North American continent? By the 19th century, the descendants of the Lamanites have had time to travel thousands of miles. Even, hold on to your hat, from Mesoamerica.

Missouri, by the way, had been a state for 10 years by the time Joseph recorded Section 54. From Wikipedia:
"The Territory of Missouri was an organized incorporated territory of the United States that existed from June 4, 1812 until August 10, 1821, when the southeastern portion of the territory was admitted to the Union as the State of Missouri." (end quote)

It's been 57 years since a state was added to the Union, but back in Joseph's day, it was a big deal. Manifest Destiny, dude, Manifest Destiny.

Have you answered larsenb's point about Lehi and family arriving by sea? Where did they arrive in your view?

[samizdat]

Most Heartlanders give the area of the central to eastern Gulf Coast as Lehi's landing site.

There is a huge problem however. They brought seeds from Jerusalem which has a totally different climate than the Gulf Coast. The seeds grew which is only possible in similar climates.

You have this type of climate in four areas of the American comtinent:

Central and north central Chile

Central and southern California and extreme north Baja California

Those climates mirror Jerusalem's.

Other areas with rainy and dry seasons without too much rain:

The Altiplanos of south central Mexico

The highland regions of Peru.

[Silver]

Gulf Coast? I thought Lehi sailed east from Bountiful when Nephi's ship was launched into Irreantum. Did they wave at the penguins when they sailed past Tierra Del Fuego?

W. Cleon Skousen taught me that Lehi landed somewhere on the west coast of the Americas. Makes sense to me.

[kittycat51]

Gulf Coast? I thought Lehi sailed east from Bountiful when Nephi's ship was launched into Irreantum. Did they wave at the penguins when they sailed past Tierra Del Fuego?

W. Cleon Skousen taught me that Lehi landed somewhere on the west coast of the Americas. Makes sense to me.

Silver, have you ever heard of "The Phoenicia voyage"? It was an experiment carried out from October 2009 to October 2010, trying to re-create Lehi's voyage. I don't have time to write about it now cause I'm just heading out the door, but I can later.

[Silver]

Gulf Coast? I thought Lehi sailed east from Bountiful when Nephi's ship was launched into Irreantum. Did they wave at the penguins when they sailed past Tierra Del Fuego?

W. Cleon Skousen taught me that Lehi landed somewhere on the west coast of the Americas. Makes sense to me.

Silver, have you ever heard of "The Phoenicia voyage"? It was an experiment carried out from October 2009 to October 2010, trying to re-create Lehi's voyage. I don't have time to write about it now cause I'm just heading out the door, but I can later.

I just tried Googling it. The site seems to be down now. Tell me more.

[larsenb]

Well, then Thanks.

Interesting site.

"It [Sidon]flowed in a northerly direction. There is never a mention of the mouth of the river. So it is unclear wether it came flowed to the sea on the east or the west."

The river Sidon is most likely the Mississippi it flows in a north south direction. There is a second river mentioned that flows from east to west. The river Sidon flows into the South Sea.

You''re one of the most impermeable people I've ever run across. No rational argument or solid evidence that contradicts your views affects you at all. Oh, well.

Confirmed artifacts by non lds archeologist

Hand written letters by Joseph smith

Scriptures in doctrine and covenants that say Missouri is the lamanite border

Historical accounts of Native American beliefs that support the Book of Mormon record.


What evidence do you have ??????????

I could repeat evidence and analysis until the cows come home, and you would ignore it. You are simply 'advertising', nothing more. You are impervious to anything contrary to your black-and-white model and concepts. You brook no rational discussion about these issues.

Just a couple of items that illustrates your style: John Lund's excellent analysis of the Joseph Smith authorship of the Times and Seasons articles on Book of Mormon lands being in the region of northern Guatemala/southern Mexico. You haven't read it and you certainly haven't rebutted Lund's analysis. All you've done is call him nasty names.

Another item is the issue of Nephi's prophesy about a man of the gentiles visiting the seed of his brethren. You stick to your silly idea that the seed of Nephi's brethren can't be any other place than the continental US, when Columbus, who is universally identified by LDS to be the man Nephi identified, visited no Indians/Lamanites in the Continental US, but did visit them in Mesoamerica and in the Caribbean Islands, which are in the same latitude as Mesoamerica.

And there are several other issues that contradict your model that I've brought up that you basically ignore. Rather a waste of time talking with you here. . . except for the many silent readers of both our posts on these threads. I mainly write for them. You are impervious, as mentioned.

[larsenb]

Gulf Coast? I thought Lehi sailed east from Bountiful when Nephi's ship was launched into Irreantum. Did they wave at the penguins when they sailed past Tierra Del Fuego?

W. Cleon Skousen taught me that Lehi landed somewhere on the west coast of the Americas. Makes sense to me.

Silver, have you ever heard of "The Phoenicia voyage"? It was an experiment carried out from October 2009 to October 2010, trying to re-create Lehi's voyage. I don't have time to write about it now cause I'm just heading out the door, but I can later.

This rebuilding of a Phoenician ship and sailing it around the Horn of Africa, was NOT done to re-create Lehi's voyage. It was done to recreate an actual Phoenician voyage around Africa and back into the Mediterranean Sea by a Phoenician ship and crew on orders of Pharaoh Necho II of Egypt, in the 600 BC time range. It was described by Herodotus.

In pre-2009, a replica of Phoenician ship was built to replicate this voyage, which was undertaken in Spring of 2009. It is described here: http://phoenicia.org/circumnavigationnew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . and probably other places. The ship was christened: the Europa .

In fact, Warren Aston of Khor Kharfot fame, hitched a ride on the first leg of the voyage going down the Red Sea. I heard that as the ship was coming up the coast of West Africa, they were picked up by the westerly currents of that latitude and almost swept over to the Caribbean Islands . . . which supports the idea that Phoenicians may have transported the Mulekites on this very same path.

The interesting thing is that all we know about the Necho II voyage, was what Herodotus tells us. Just think of what the Phoenicians may have done in their voyaging that we DON'T know about. I think it is considerable. Hano was another voyager who went counterclockwise to the Necho voyage, but didn't get all the way around the Horn coming from the west.

[kittycat51]

Gulf Coast? I thought Lehi sailed east from Bountiful when Nephi's ship was launched into Irreantum. Did they wave at the penguins when they sailed past Tierra Del Fuego?

W. Cleon Skousen taught me that Lehi landed somewhere on the west coast of the Americas. Makes sense to me.

Silver, have you ever heard of "The Phoenicia voyage"? It was an experiment carried out from October 2009 to October 2010, trying to re-create Lehi's voyage. I don't have time to write about it now cause I'm just heading out the door, but I can later.

This rebuilding of a Phoenician ship and sailing it around the Horn of Africa, was NOT done to re-create Lehi's voyage. It was done to recreate an actual Phoenician voyage around Africa and back into the Mediterranean Sea by a Phoenician ship and crew on orders of Pharaoh Necho II of Egypt, in the 600 BC time range. It was described by Herodotus.

In pre-2009, a replica of Phoenician ship was built to replicate this voyage, which was undertaken in Spring of 2009. It is described here: http://phoenicia.org/circumnavigationnew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . and probably other places. The ship was christened: the Europa .

In fact, Warren Aston of Khor Kharfot fame, hitched a ride on the first leg of the voyage going down the Red Sea. I heard that as the ship was coming up the coast of West Africa, they were picked up by the westerly currents of that latitude and almost swept over to the Caribbean Islands . . . which supports the idea that Phoenicians may have transported the Mulekites on this very same path.

The interesting thing is that all we know about the Necho II voyage, was what Herodotus tells us. Just think of what the Phoenicians may have done in their voyaging that we DON'T know about. I think it is considerable. Hano was another voyager who went counterclockwise to the Necho voyage, but didn't get all the way around the Horn coming from the west.

Okay sorry larsenb, it wasn't to re-create Lehi's voyage. My bad. What it did prove though was that it was HIGHLY possible for Lehi to have sailed around Africa before being pushed toward's the Gulf of Mexico.

The History Channel did a documentary a few years back called "Who Really Discovered America?" They assumed an easterly route across the Indian and Pacific oceans alleged by Mesoamerican theorists but dismissed it because it would require about 580 days, way too long for people to survive the journey. In contrast, had Lehi left at Harvest season (September-October) and sailed to America along the same route now demonstrated by the Phoenicia expedition which hopped around South Afria, they would have arrived in North America near the middle of April, just in time for planting season. (just like Nephi claims in 1 Nephi 18:23-24 that they planted immediately.)

Have you read this article "The Smoking Gun of Book of Mormon Geography"? http://bookofmormonevidence.org/the-smo ... geography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I think the link to the actual article is broken, but you can download the article in PDF from the above link. Worth reading. I think Lund's research concerning trying to prove who wrote the article in "The Times and Season's" is flawed. (personal opinion)

Years ago when my older brother told me of Rod Meldrum's research I about decked him and thought 'what have you been smoking'. But after I borrowed some video presentations he had, my mind was blown and to me it just made much MORE sense than what I had believed my whole life to that point. You are right to say you could talk (yell) until you're blue in the face trying to tell me my opinion is incorrect and your's is correct. I think there are talking points on BOTH sides that may not add up. Remember we are told that sometimes we don't have all the answers in this life and to not let it shake our faith. If the prophet were to come straight out and state one or the other was correct I would take that and lay it to rest. (It has to be while they are a prophet and not a general authority) I do know though of a recent Apostle that was presented with the Book "The Book of Mormon in America's Heartland" by Rod Meldrum and he was thoroughly impressed with it so much so he alluded to it in a speech shortly thereafter reading it.

This topic in my mind (as I have seen on this forum) could divide many in the church. Well who is the author of controversy? Satan. I have a dear older friend who I greatly admire and really look up to. I was shocked to find out that she and her husband believe in the "Baja California" theory of where the Nephites were. I won't hold that against her ;) Likewise I respect your opinion. From your posts you seem to be a pretty great person.

[tribrac]

I enjoy reading some of the secondary sources, (ie websites) but really like primary academic sources.

If you are like me you will enjoy this: http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscre ... 19&index=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or this http://publications.mi.byu.edu/book/mormons-map/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is Mormon's Map by John L. Sorenson.

Good Day.

[larsenb]

Gulf Coast? I thought Lehi sailed east from Bountiful when Nephi's ship was launched into Irreantum. Did they wave at the penguins when they sailed past Tierra Del Fuego?

W. Cleon Skousen taught me that Lehi landed somewhere on the west coast of the Americas. Makes sense to me.

Silver, have you ever heard of "The Phoenicia voyage"? It was an experiment carried out from October 2009 to October 2010, trying to re-create Lehi's voyage. I don't have time to write about it now cause I'm just heading out the door, but I can later.

This rebuilding of a Phoenician ship and sailing it around the Horn of Africa, was NOT done to re-create Lehi's voyage. It was done to recreate an actual Phoenician voyage around Africa and back into the Mediterranean Sea by a Phoenician ship and crew on orders of Pharaoh Necho II of Egypt, in the 600 BC time range. It was described by Herodotus.

In pre-2009, a replica of Phoenician ship was built to replicate this voyage, which was undertaken in Spring of 2009. It is described here: http://phoenicia.org/circumnavigationnew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . and probably other places. The ship was christened: the Europa .

In fact, Warren Aston of Khor Kharfot fame, hitched a ride on the first leg of the voyage going down the Red Sea. I heard that as the ship was coming up the coast of West Africa, they were picked up by the westerly currents of that latitude and almost swept over to the Caribbean Islands . . . which supports the idea that Phoenicians may have transported the Mulekites on this very same path.

The interesting thing is that all we know about the Necho II voyage, was what Herodotus tells us. Just think of what the Phoenicians may have done in their voyaging that we DON'T know about. I think it is considerable. Hano was another voyager who went counterclockwise to the Necho voyage, but didn't get all the way around the Horn coming from the west.

Okay sorry larsenb, it wasn't to re-create Lehi's voyage. My bad. What it did prove though was that it was HIGHLY possible for Lehi to have sailed around Africa before being pushed toward's the Gulf of Mexico.

The History Channel did a documentary a few years back called "Who Really Discovered America?" They assumed an easterly route across the Indian and Pacific oceans alleged by Mesoamerican theorists but dismissed it because it would require about 580 days, way too long for people to survive the journey. In contrast, had Lehi left at Harvest season (September-October) and sailed to America along the same route now demonstrated by the Phoenicia expedition which hopped around South Afria, they would have arrived in North America near the middle of April, just in time for planting season. (just like Nephi claims in 1 Nephi 18:23-24 that they planted immediately.)

Have you read this article "The Smoking Gun of Book of Mormon Geography"? http://bookofmormonevidence.org/the-smo ... geography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I think the link to the actual article is broken, but you can download the article in PDF from the above link. Worth reading. I think Lund's research concerning trying to prove who wrote the article in "The Times and Season's" is flawed. (personal opinion)

Years ago when my older brother told me of Rod Meldrum's research I about decked him and thought 'what have you been smoking'. But after I borrowed some video presentations he had, my mind was blown and to me it just made much MORE sense than what I had believed my whole life to that point. You are right to say you could talk (yell) until you're blue in the face trying to tell me my opinion is incorrect and your's is correct. I think there are talking points on BOTH sides that may not add up. Remember we are told that sometimes we don't have all the answers in this life and to not let it shake our faith. If the prophet were to come straight out and state one or the other was correct I would take that and lay it to rest. (It has to be while they are a prophet and not a general authority) I do know though of a recent Apostle that was presented with the Book "The Book of Mormon in America's Heartland" by Rod Meldrum and he was thoroughly impressed with it so much so he alluded to it in a speech shortly thereafter reading it.

This topic in my mind (as I have seen on this forum) could divide many in the church. Well who is the author of controversy? Satan. I have a dear older friend who I greatly admire and really look up to. I was shocked to find out that she and her husband believe in the "Baja California" theory of where the Nephites were. I won't hold that against her ;) Likewise I respect your opinion. From your posts you seem to be a pretty great person.

Yes, it did show that Lehi could have come that way. It certainly showed that the Mulekites could have come that way . . . and on Phoenician ships to boot.

Unfortunately, Nephi is very sparse in his description of their voyage. And he said “after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the promised land”. So we lack the actual time the voyage took. Also, we have no idea whether or not they made landfall from time-to-time to take on supplies, which could have been done all along the coast of India, past Sumatra and the various Polynesian Islands all the way to Tahiti.

Probably the strongest hint that they went east instead of west, is Alma’s description of where the land of their first inheritance was, which was on the sea shore on the west of the land of Nephi.

Once again, here is the passage that describes where the Lamanites were to be found, including: (Alma 22:28) “on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their father’s first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.”

Ripliancum’s model shows no seashore “on the west in the land of Nephi”. His model shows the Mississippi as essentially bordering the west boundary of the Land of Nephi. Furthermore, he thinks Lake Michigan was the west sea described in the Book of Mormon. Though his model does dip waaaaay down into Florida, so he could conceivably claim that the Nephite’s came into the Gulf and hooked around to land on the west coast of
Florida. But this contention violates Occam’s razor to the extreme, in my strongly held view.

And his model does not take into account the distance constraints that can be established by many passages from the Book of Mormon. It’s in extreme violation of these constraints.

People can make up powerful stories about almost anything, making you think they are or may be true. In science, this is derogatorily called arm-waving.

Now you can say you think John Lund’s research is flawed, but you’ve got to understand that it means nothing unless you can demonstrate how it is flawed. And if you read someone’s analysis of Lund’s research, you have to ask yourself if this person actually shows that the statistical analysis employed by Lund was flawed. Otherwise, you and they are blowing smoke. This is a type of thing that can cause contention.

The topic of where the lands of the Book of Mormon are located is fascinating. For me, it is enjoyable to speculate, discuss and analyze the issue. It doesn’t have to be an exercise in name calling and anger. I’m perfectly willing to accept the heartland model, if they could only clearly overcome its many weaknesses. I just don’t see that happening.

Incidentally, 2-3 years ago, I heard an emeritus Seventy speak about his experiences as a missionary in Guatemala, who came out in full support of the Mesoamerican, limited Tehuantepec model because of his experiences talking to Guatemalan Indians, who had a story of coming over in ships, consisting of clans derived from 7 brothers, or words to that effect.

[ripliancum]

Silver, have you ever heard of "The Phoenicia voyage"? It was an experiment carried out from October 2009 to October 2010, trying to re-create Lehi's voyage. I don't have time to write about it now cause I'm just heading out the door, but I can later.

This rebuilding of a Phoenician ship and sailing it around the Horn of Africa, was NOT done to re-create Lehi's voyage. It was done to recreate an actual Phoenician voyage around Africa and back into the Mediterranean Sea by a Phoenician ship and crew on orders of Pharaoh Necho II of Egypt, in the 600 BC time range. It was described by Herodotus.

In pre-2009, a replica of Phoenician ship was built to replicate this voyage, which was undertaken in Spring of 2009. It is described here: http://phoenicia.org/circumnavigationnew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . and probably other places. The ship was christened: the Europa .

In fact, Warren Aston of Khor Kharfot fame, hitched a ride on the first leg of the voyage going down the Red Sea. I heard that as the ship was coming up the coast of West Africa, they were picked up by the westerly currents of that latitude and almost swept over to the Caribbean Islands . . . which supports the idea that Phoenicians may have transported the Mulekites on this very same path.

The interesting thing is that all we know about the Necho II voyage, was what Herodotus tells us. Just think of what the Phoenicians may have done in their voyaging that we DON'T know about. I think it is considerable. Hano was another voyager who went counterclockwise to the Necho voyage, but didn't get all the way around the Horn coming from the west.

Okay sorry larsenb, it wasn't to re-create Lehi's voyage. My bad. What it did prove though was that it was HIGHLY possible for Lehi to have sailed around Africa before being pushed toward's the Gulf of Mexico.

The History Channel did a documentary a few years back called "Who Really Discovered America?" They assumed an easterly route across the Indian and Pacific oceans alleged by Mesoamerican theorists but dismissed it because it would require about 580 days, way too long for people to survive the journey. In contrast, had Lehi left at Harvest season (September-October) and sailed to America along the same route now demonstrated by the Phoenicia expedition which hopped around South Afria, they would have arrived in North America near the middle of April, just in time for planting season. (just like Nephi claims in 1 Nephi 18:23-24 that they planted immediately.)

Have you read this article "The Smoking Gun of Book of Mormon Geography"? http://bookofmormonevidence.org/the-smo ... geography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I think the link to the actual article is broken, but you can download the article in PDF from the above link. Worth reading. I think Lund's research concerning trying to prove who wrote the article in "The Times and Season's" is flawed. (personal opinion)

Years ago when my older brother told me of Rod Meldrum's research I about decked him and thought 'what have you been smoking'. But after I borrowed some video presentations he had, my mind was blown and to me it just made much MORE sense than what I had believed my whole life to that point. You are right to say you could talk (yell) until you're blue in the face trying to tell me my opinion is incorrect and your's is correct. I think there are talking points on BOTH sides that may not add up. Remember we are told that sometimes we don't have all the answers in this life and to not let it shake our faith. If the prophet were to come straight out and state one or the other was correct I would take that and lay it to rest. (It has to be while they are a prophet and not a general authority) I do know though of a recent Apostle that was presented with the Book "The Book of Mormon in America's Heartland" by Rod Meldrum and he was thoroughly impressed with it so much so he alluded to it in a speech shortly thereafter reading it.

This topic in my mind (as I have seen on this forum) could divide many in the church. Well who is the author of controversy? Satan. I have a dear older friend who I greatly admire and really look up to. I was shocked to find out that she and her husband believe in the "Baja California" theory of where the Nephites were. I won't hold that against her ;) Likewise I respect your opinion. From your posts you seem to be a pretty great person.

Yes, it did show that Lehi could have come that way. It certainly showed that the Mulekites could have come that way . . . and on Phoenician ships to boot.

Unfortunately, Nephi is very sparse in his description of their voyage. And he said “after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the promised land”. So we lack the actual time the voyage took. Also, we have no idea whether or not they made landfall from time-to-time to take on supplies, which could have been done all along the coast of India, past Sumatra and the various Polynesian Islands all the way to Tahiti.

Probably the strongest hint that they went east instead of west, is Alma’s description of where the land of their first inheritance was, which was on the sea shore on the west of the land of Nephi.

Once again, here is the passage that describes where the Lamanites were to be found, including: (Alma 22:28) “on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their father’s first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.”

Ripliancum’s model shows no seashore “on the west in the land of Nephi”. His model shows the Mississippi as essentially bordering the west boundary of the Land of Nephi. Furthermore, he thinks Lake Michigan was the west sea described in the Book of Mormon. Though his model does dip waaaaay down into Florida, so he could conceivably claim that the Nephite’s came into the Gulf and hooked around to land on the west coast of
Florida. But this contention violates Occam’s razor to the extreme, in my strongly held view.

And his model does not take into account the distance constraints that can be established by many passages from the Book of Mormon. It’s in extreme violation of these constraints.

People can make up powerful stories about almost anything, making you think they are or may be true. In science, this is derogatorily called arm-waving.

Now you can say you think John Lund’s research is flawed, but you’ve got to understand that it means nothing unless you can demonstrate how it is flawed. And if you read someone’s analysis of Lund’s research, you have to ask yourself if this person actually shows that the statistical analysis employed by Lund was flawed. Otherwise, you and they are blowing smoke. This is a type of thing that can cause contention.

The topic of where the lands of the Book of Mormon are located is fascinating. For me, it is enjoyable to speculate, discuss and analyze the issue. It doesn’t have to be an exercise in name calling and anger. I’m perfectly willing to accept the heartland model, if they could only clearly overcome its many weaknesses. I just don’t see that happening.

Incidentally, 2-3 years ago, I heard an emeritus Seventy speak about his experiences as a missionary in Guatemala, who came out in full support of the Mesoamerican, limited Tehuantepec model because of his experiences talking to Guatemalan Indians, who had a story of coming over in ships, consisting of clans derived from 7 brothers, or words to that effect.

In my model the land of Nephi and the Land of Ishmael border the Gulf Coast or the South Sea. This matches the book of Mormon well since the South sea is only mentioned once in the BOM. Lehi probably landed along the Florida panhandle. There is a Hopewell civilization in Florida that dates to 500BC at crystal River.

The west sea is also a excellent match. Alma 53:8 a larger number of Lamanites build up south of the west sea (Lake Michigan) The Lamanites would go around lake Michigan to attack the city bountiful they also tookover many cities in that area. Lamanites were on west and north of Zarahemla. The fact that Lamanites are north of zarahemla is very problematic for the Meso American Model. See Alma Chapter 2 to see large concourses of Lamanites north of Zarahemla. With my model this fits perfectly. West of lake Michigan upper Illinois and Wisconsin area was open wilderness open to Lamanites.

In Alma 63 men women and children leave Zarahemla going north to the west sea. The West sea is North of the City of Zarahemla. When they arrive by the west they are by the narrow neck land desolation and bountiful. Another perfect match for my model. I know prophets and apostles in current times who were influenced by the meso American model stated that Hagoth sailed to Polynesian islands but the facts do not show this.

Also you continue to ignore scripture and statements by Joseph Smith.

Lamanites flee north and west from Zarahemla. Zarahemla was part of the west border. Sidon flowed along the city of zarahemla. Sidon was in the west part of the nephite lands and of the land of Nephi.

36 And they fled before the Nephites towards the wilderness which was west and north, away beyond the borders of the land; and the Nephites did pursue them with their might, and did slay them.


http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... m-map.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Teancum]

In Alma 63 men women and children leave Zarahemla going north to the west sea. The West sea is North of the City of Zarahemla. When they arrive by the west they are by the narrow neck land desolation and bountiful. Another perfect match for my model. I know prophets and apostles in current times who were influenced by the meso American model stated that Hagoth sailed to Polynesian islands but the facts do not show this.

While on my mission, I met the daughter of Patriarch Wolfgramm. As part of their family heritage,which she shared parts of with me, their geneaology does indeed trace back to Hagoth.

Really this thread is a perfect example of LDS Book of Mormon bashing. There is very little edification when there is contention. It appears to me that People's faith / testimonies are being challenged and defenders of the faith must step forward with sword in hand to defend it at all costs. Perhaps the feeling is - "if I yeild on one point, then I have to yeild the whole shebang", so no one is willing to budge one iota for fear of loosing their footing and falling.

I don't know anything, but I have a hope of things. These things do interest me, but not to the point of alienating the Holy Spirit. It seems there was another thread on this forum which showed the same attitudes play out. Contention and pride seemed to hold sway there also.

So if this is not edifying, why participate? Hopefully some may come to realize that they have been allowed to be stirred up, and may accept and trust God's timetable for revealing these things in His own due time, and especially regardless of whether we as individuals have a part in it at all.

[ripliancum]

In Alma 63 men women and children leave Zarahemla going north to the west sea. The West sea is North of the City of Zarahemla. When they arrive by the west they are by the narrow neck land desolation and bountiful. Another perfect match for my model. I know prophets and apostles in current times who were influenced by the meso American model stated that Hagoth sailed to Polynesian islands but the facts do not show this.

While on my mission, I met the daughter of Patriarch Wolfgramm. As part of their family heritage,which she shared parts of with me, their geneaology does indeed trace back to Hagoth.

Really this thread is a perfect example of LDS Book of Mormon bashing. There is very little edification when there is contention. It appears to me that People's faith / testimonies are being challenged and defenders of the faith must step forward with sword in hand to defend it at all costs. Perhaps the feeling is - "if I yeild on one point, then I have to yeild the whole shebang", so no one is willing to budge one iota for fear of loosing their footing and falling.

I don't know anything, but I have a hope of things. These things do interest me, but not to the point of alienating the Holy Spirit. It seems there was another thread on this forum which showed the same attitudes play out. Contention and pride seemed to hold sway there also.

So if this is not edifying, why participate? Hopefully some may come to realize that they have been allowed to be stirred up, and may accept and trust God's timetable for revealing these things in His own due time, and especially regardless of whether we as individuals have a part in it at all.

This is about which Book of geography model makes the most sense and the evidence given to support the model. If you wanted to discuss spirituality I would not pick a post about the Mississippi River being sidon