The Totem Pole Scripture for Obrien

[Reggie]

Obrien, this is the best I can do; but, it suffices for me to believe that it is not for the bottom of the totem pole to stand up and correct the top of the totem pole. It would appear that the Lord Himself will do that. It does not go unnoticed the things the top are doing wrong.

See D&C 90:36-37

36 But verily I say unto you, that I, the Lord, will contend with Zion, and plead with her strong ones, and chasten her until she overcomes and is clean before me.

37 For she shall not be removed out of her place. I, the Lord, have spoken it. Amen.

[mhewett]

It does not go unnoticed the things the top are doing wrong.

really that is a matter of opinion. Just because someone disagrees with the FP doesn't mean the FP are wrong.

[Reggie]

It does not go unnoticed the things the top are doing wrong.

really that is a matter of opinion. Just because someone disagrees with the FP doesn't mean the FP are wrong.

Go to the scripture reference and read it in context. What I said was in the spirit of the scripture reference. The Lord is not always pleased with what the leaders are doing, as well as the members. I am not judging. He is the judge.

[Obrien]

thanks Reggie, for spending the time and trouble searching that out. as I read and pondered what you wrote, I'm not sold on it. I believe "the leaders", in whatever capacity they serve, should operate by revelation, meekness, long suffering and persuasion. they should seek common consent from those they lead. that puts a burden on the followers as well, not only to support leaders but to have confirming revelation as to the appropriate course to follow. what I see in the Church is laziness on the part of followers (leaders only get 100% approval in the most draconian organizations) and hubris on the part of the leaders. they do whatever they want, assuming we will support it in order to FTP. we are both condemned, and truly it will take the chastisment if the Lord to straighten us out.

[Reggie]

thanks Reggie, for spending the time and trouble searching that out. as I read and pondered what you wrote, I'm not sold on it. I believe "the leaders", in whatever capacity they serve, should operate by revelation, meekness, long suffering and persuasion. they should seek common consent from those they lead. that puts a burden on the followers as well, not only to support leaders but to have confirming revelation as to the appropriate course to follow. what I see in the Church is laziness on the part of followers (leaders only get 100% approval in the most draconian organizations) and hubris on the part of the leaders. they do whatever they want, assuming we will support it in order to FTP. we are both condemned, and truly it will take the chastisment if the Lord to straighten us out.

Now, Obrien, this is taking a tangent. The Totem Pole scripture was in reference specifically about the members reaching out to correct the Brethren (Recall petition about revealing church finances). What you have stated is absolutely true. But, it is another topic entirely. Every member is responsible for their actions and who they follow. There is no argument there. For example: if you individually have received revelation to not pay tithing to the church; then that is on you. It has nothing to do with me. I've only received that revelation once when I had a cousin who was dying of cancer and I needed money to help him out with medical treatment. It was incidence specific for me. I then resumed paying my tithing to the church.

Now, that particular scripture, confirmed to me that the church still has the authority even if the Lord is not pleased. Zion will not be moved from her place. It is His perogative to chasten and correct the "strong ones of Zion". Let us not let our own hubris judge wrongly and overshoot the mark because we ourselves have failed to be humble. Let us continue to follow the Spirit in our own lives. Let us humbly stand in our purview and wait on the Lord. And as the prophet told us "Stay in the good ship Zion". As for me, I will stay in the Zion ship 100%. I don't have to understand everything the Brethern are doing. All I have to know is whether my Lord wants me to follow them. I have been told in 2014, in the temple, to "Follow the Prophet". So, for me That is That! :ymhug: ;;)

[Obrien]

Maybe I did get off track. I'll be a little more direct. I do not adhere to the blind obedience to men. I believe that church "leaders" are just as susceptible to human weaknesses, pride and bad judgement as anyone else. I believe the leaders should be held accountable by the followers. Because the consequences are severe for not toeing the line in the modern church, many people put on blinders and refuse to look at things as they really are. I've been guilty of this behaviour as well, but less so in the recent past. I'm awakening to our awful situation.

God bless you for doing as you've been told. I have not received that inspiration, so I choose to follow my own path and accept the consequences for my choices. If that changes, you'll be the second to know.