I want to thank all of the Contrarians, Apostates, & others

[Reggie]

I had a wake up call yesterday. I feed the missionaries on Thursdays. When I had not answered their text, 30 minutes before their usual time, they called me. I had totally forgotten them. I had either been on this forum; thinking about the forum; or reading related scriptures until the whole day had passed.

I want to thank the Contrarians, et. al. for everything you have taught me. When I came here, I did not know just how much, "Things are not well in Zion". I had no idea of a 2nd comforter or how to seek Him. I had no idea what was going on out west in the tower. Your ideas have made me cry, fast, pray, pray some more, search the scriptures, go to the temple, buy books like Lectures on Faith, Teachings of Joseph Smith, Discourses of Brigham Young, etc. etc. I have been through brother Gileadi's website on Isaiah, blogs I never knew existed, You Tube videos I never knew existed. It has just been like going to school. :-B

But especially, discussing things with the Contrarians has helped me like nothing else. It has made my testimony stronger. Soooo much stronger, because of all the foregoing activities in seeking God's will for me. I think perhaps in some small way it was God preparing me for persecutions. Better to face these things from within first before they start hitting me with it from the outside. I suppose there is much worse revelations to come about our state of affairs in the world. But, I know in whom I have trusted and it is not the arm of flesh.

I joined the forum September 2, 2013. In a year, coming to the forum has become almost an obsession. I've got to take a sabbatical. I've got to get back being focused on the work. I will still be reading, praying, searching, templing, etc.; but, I've got to get this obsession under control. I hope when I return, my little Contrarians will still be here. I hope the TBM will still be here too. Because together, for those with hearts willing to learn and follow the Spirit where it leads we are the KINGDOM -all of us. :ymcowboy:

Love you guys. Hope to back when I feel I'm more in control and won't spend a whole day here.

[Daryl]

God bless you for your faith! Best to your planned sabbatical.

[Obrien]

you're welcome, Reggie. I never saw the totem pole scripture - did you ever find it? post it after your sabbatical ends, pls. thanks for your faith and interesting posts

[Tribunal]

Good post Reggie. I'm not sure what you mean by "Contrarians"? Do you mean those who question everything? I like to call them Disciples of Jesus Christ.

[TannerG]

Reggie, I always sense genuine humility and love in your posts. May God bless you in your journey of faith and learning.

[KMCopeland]

Jesus was a Contrarian.

[Reggie]

Jesus was a Contrarian.

Yes He was. He railed against wickedness and stood in the position to judge and call to repentance. I love it that my contrarians are railing against what they see as wickedness. (and it may well be) The part I struggle with is, do they or we stand in the position to judge and call to repentance those who are the leaders of the church? We covenant in the temple to not murmur against the Lord's annointed. We know that the Lord's house is an house of order. I am still looking for the "totem pole scripture" (for Obrien) that clarifys whether the bottom can correct the top. All that said, I love contrarians. I have been a fierce one in my time. Experience has taught me to temper it somewhat. I am not judging the contrarians though. ;;)

[worthit]

You are every bit as anointed as anyone. The only safe place where you need not fear, is in putting your trust in the Lord and the revelations He gives you. Honor that light. If the leaders are contrary to that light, choose the light--choose the light!

What a great heart you have! Follow His light. The Lord is not pleased with the "loftiness of the branches" because it separates Him from you. A house of order is not the same as a house of dominion. Don't let others have dominion over a heart that seeks to please the Lord. You are their equals and they should be His servants, continually pointing the way to His glorious light.

[worthit]

oops. double submit

[KMCopeland]

Jesus was a Contrarian.

The part I struggle with is, do they or we stand in the position to judge and call to repentance those who are the leaders of the church? We covenant in the temple to not murmur against the Lord's annointed. We know that the Lord's house is an house of order. I am still looking for the "totem pole scripture" (for Obrien) that clarifys whether the bottom can correct the top. All that said, I love contrarians. I have been a fierce one in my time. Experience has taught me to temper it somewhat. I am not judging the contrarians though. ;;)

I can't speak for all contrarians. Me, I don't feel I have the right to call church leadership to repentance. I do have the right -- and the responsibility -- to question them.


I believe I am responsible to Heavenly Father for what I do. If a church leader tells me to do something that turns out to be wrong, Heavenly Father is going to hold me responsible for being spiritually lazy -- for feeling like I'm covered if I follow some incorrect advice because it was a church leader who gave me the advice. I don't think I am covered if I do that.

We know that the very elect can be deceived. I think we all have an enormous responsibility to make sure what we do is actually righteous. Not merely obedient.

[Tribunal]

I can't speak for all contrarians. Me, I don't feel I have the right to call church leadership to repentance. I do have the right -- and the responsibility -- to question them.

I believe I am responsible to Heavenly Father for what I do. If a church leader tells me to do something that turns out to be wrong, Heavenly Father is going to hold me responsible for being spiritually lazy -- for feeling like I'm covered if I follow some incorrect advice because it was a church leader who gave me the advice. I don't think I am covered if I do that.

We know that the very elect can be deceived. I think we all have an enormous responsibility to make sure what we do is actually righteous. Not merely obedient.

Excellent point Copeland, but what do we do when we believe something is incorrect, and we know we aren't covered if we decide to follow the incorrect advice? Do we proclaim to fellow members of the Church the incorrect advice? This will most definitely lead to excommunication from the Church. Do we keep it to yourself and just not follow the incorrect advice? This will most definitely lead to inactivity from the Church. What do we do?

[Reggie]

Well, here is my plan on what to do.

1) Stay within my purview. Do the best I can in the kingdom to bless the lives of the Saints. :ymparty:

2) Speak no ill of anyone. I will not take part in spreading rumors or ill will among the saints. Neither will I go looking for dirt on the leaders from the ward to the "Tower". If it finds me, I will take it to the Lord and ask Him what I am to do. Before I do or say anything I will be sure it is the Lord's errand. Not what I heard from someone else who got me all stirred up, confused or angry. O:-)

3) I know for myself that no church, no leaders, and no one else can stand between me and Jesus Christ. They cannot keep me from progressing to a calling and election if I am worthy; neither can they make me do anything that is contrary to the will of the Lord. Therefore, I will progress as quickly as I am able. What I need the leaders to do is go about gathering Israel and protecting the organization until the Lord comes. That is their purview and I am glad that it is not mine.

4) Since the Lord has made it clear to me that this church is still the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, (maybe a little warped with the passed time) but nevertheless still has the authority, I will stay with it as long as the Lord tells me to. I will not depend on my own understanding, logic, processes, to put the people through their paces and judge whether what they are doing is consistent with whatever criteria I set to judge. I have learned by hard time what that can do for you. God sometimes uses the people in the church to try our faith.

5) FAITH is the bottom line here. As Mormon Rabbi explained it once, it is more than believing. It is TRUSTing God. This church is not on our timeline, our purview, or our level of understanding. If God needs temples built with the money more than he needs the poor taken care of that's ok. Because really, the poor are His. I have been there. Just as He feeds the birds, He will feed, clothe, and house the poor who show faith in Him. Being poor and humble is better than being rich and proud. Being poor in spirit with a contrite heart is better than being a judge. Therefore, I will Trust God and be humble.
;;)

6) I know many here feel like the Lord is leading them to do things, ie., step out of the church, be rebaptised,etc. I say, if you feel the Lord is clearly telling you to do these things, go for it. The road of hard knocks is the very best teacher. But, if you choose to do anything that is not supporting the church, the brethren, the saints in our mission to gather Israel, work for the dead, or perfect the saints, then you should have the courage of your convictions to leave the church behind and step out into what you feel the Lord is leading you to. Why keep attending a temple you feel is dead? Why keep wearing garments that belong to a covenant that you are breaking? Why keep preaching to the saints who are happy in Zion at whatever level they are able to function? Let each person clarify the voice of the Lord to himself and follow it now. :ymcowboy:

[Obrien]

so, to restate your post:

do your best
love your neighbor
love God
be believing
mind your own business

I wish you were in my ward.