Something for the many of you who disagree with me...

[DPeterson]

I just wanted to throw out something for y'all to consider...

I really am willing and open to having real, honest conversations about those things we disagree with. We don't have to criticize, condemn, or complain about each other. If you think there's something I'm missing or don't understand, please say so...or if you have a real question for me please ask.

For example:

Say we are having a discussion about the succession crisis like laronius and I were the other day. Let's say you want to ask, "Did any of these people bother to read TPJS and HC where those keys were clearly passed from Joseph to the 12 in the store?" That's a legitimate question I'd be willing to discuss...but nobody asked it.

Or:

Maybe we're discussion D&C 124 and what we all think happened there. You all know what I think but maybe you have the question, "I wonder if they bothered to read verses 49-54?" That is also a very good question.

I'm willing to have real discussion, but it seems like many are willing to just assume you're a raving apostate and not engage in real questions. Those are real questions, and I'd be happy to parse them out. But again, nobody asks. They just criticize and condemn.

[BroJones]

OK, I'll bite - perhaps start with the first one,

"Did any of these people bother to read TPJS and HC where those keys were clearly passed from Joseph to the 12 in the store?" That's a legitimate question I'd be willing to discuss...but nobody asked it.

I'm asking, then - what are the quotes from TPJS and HC? sounds interesting.

And I'd like to add, from the STANDARD WORKS, by which we can test all statements (including a prophet's):

107:
22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.

Seems clear. When the First Presidency is dissolved (e.g. death of the President), then the power resides in the quorum of the Twelve!

[DPeterson]

First day back at BYU-Idaho...leaving right now actually. I'll jump on later and take a stab at it Dr Jones!

[BroJones]

First day back at BYU-Idaho...leaving right now actually. I'll jump on later and take a stab at it Dr Jones!

Great, thanks DP. Best wishes for you at byu-IDAHO. Wish my friend and 9/11-truth-supporter Prof. Jack Weyland was still there!

[wompus]

[caddis]

Wompus

I know you and the rest of your buddies on the other forum are doing your best to come here, troll, and then get banned so you can then give each other virtual high-fives. Really though. What's the point? Did you feel that your picture above would add something to the conversation or are you here to just cause trouble? Give it a rest and let it go. :ymhug:

[wompus]

I just thought it was funny... I don't have any other BUDDIES here... people here are [AWESOME]!

[laronius]

Sorry for just copying and pasting large quotes but these basically address the question of keys:

Wilford Woodruff said about Joseph Smith’s meeting with the Apostles in March 1844: “I remember the last speech that [Joseph Smith] ever gave us before his death. … He stood upon his feet some three hours. The room was filled as with consuming fire, his face was as clear as amber, and he was clothed upon by the power of God. He laid before us our duty. He laid before us the fullness of this great work of God; and in his remarks to us he said: ‘I have had sealed upon my head every key, every power, every principle of life and salvation that God has ever given to any man who ever lived upon the face of the earth. And these principles and this Priesthood and power belong to this great and last dispensation which the God of Heaven has set His hand to establish in the earth. Now,’ said he, addressing the Twelve, ‘I have sealed upon your heads every key, every power, and every principle which the Lord has sealed upon my head.’ And continuing, he said, ‘I have lived so long—up to the present time—I have been in the midst of this people and in the great work and labor of redemption. I have desired to live to see this Temple built. But I shall never live to see it completed; but you will—you will.’

Members of the Quorum of the Twelve recorded: “We, the [Twelve], … were present at a council in the latter part of the month of March last [1844], held in the City of Nauvoo. …

“In this council, Joseph Smith seemed somewhat depressed in spirit, and took the liberty to open his heart to us … : ‘Brethren, the Lord bids me hasten the work in which we are engaged. … Some important scene is near to take place. It may be that my enemies will kill me. And in case they should, and the keys and power which rest on me not be imparted to you, they will be lost from the earth. But if I can only succeed in placing them upon your heads, then let me fall a victim to murderous hands if God will suffer it, and I can go with all pleasure and satisfaction, knowing that my work is done, and the foundation laid on which the kingdom of God is to be reared in this dispensation of the fulness of times.

“‘Upon the shoulders of the Twelve must the responsibility of leading this church henceforth rest until you shall appoint others to succeed you. Your enemies cannot kill you all at once, and should any of you be killed, you can lay your hands upon others and fill up your quorum. Thus can this power and these keys be perpetuated in the earth.’ …

“Never shall we forget his feelings or his words on this occasion. After he had thus spoken, he continued to walk the floor, saying: ‘Since I have rolled the burden off from my shoulders, I feel as light as a cork. I feel that I am free. I thank my God for this deliverance.’”

Parley P. Pratt, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, wrote: “This great and good man was led, before his death, to call the Twelve together, from time to time, and to instruct them in all things pertaining to the kingdom, ordinances, and government of God. He often observed that he was laying the foundation, but it would remain for the Twelve to complete the building. Said he, ‘I know not why; but for some reason I am constrained to hasten my preparations, and to confer upon the Twelve all the ordinances, keys, covenants, endowments, and sealing ordinances of the priesthood, and so set before them a pattern in all things pertaining to the sanctuary [the temple] and the endowment therein.’

“Having done this, he rejoiced exceedingly; for, said he, the Lord is about to lay the burden on your shoulders and let me rest awhile; and if they kill me, continued he, the kingdom of God will roll on, as I have now finished the work which was laid upon me, by committing to you all things for the building up of the kingdom according to the heavenly vision, and the pattern shown me from heaven.”

Brigham Young, the second President of the Church, taught: “Joseph conferred upon our heads all the keys and powers belonging to the Apostleship which he himself held before he was taken away, and no man or set of men can get between Joseph and the Twelve in this world or in the world to come. How often has Joseph said to the Twelve, ‘I have laid the foundation and you must build thereon, for upon your shoulders the kingdom rests.’”

taken from: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 6?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[caddis]

I just thought it was funny... I don't have any other BUDDIES here... people here are [AWESOME]!

Don't play dumb. If people here are crazy then why don't you run along to the other forum. The one you know exactly of which I speak.

Edit: That's the ticket Wompus. We are awesome and not crazy. I have a feeling that moderator change will drive you crazy though.

[Reggie]

Sorry for just copying and pasting large quotes but these basically address the question of keys:

Wilford Woodruff said about Joseph Smith’s meeting with the Apostles in March 1844: “I remember the last speech that [Joseph Smith] ever gave us before his death. … He stood upon his feet some three hours. The room was filled as with consuming fire, his face was as clear as amber, and he was clothed upon by the power of God. He laid before us our duty. He laid before us the fullness of this great work of God; and in his remarks to us he said: ‘I have had sealed upon my head every key, every power, every principle of life and salvation that God has ever given to any man who ever lived upon the face of the earth. And these principles and this Priesthood and power belong to this great and last dispensation which the God of Heaven has set His hand to establish in the earth. Now,’ said he, addressing the Twelve, ‘I have sealed upon your heads every key, every power, and every principle which the Lord has sealed upon my head.’ And continuing, he said, ‘I have lived so long—up to the present time—I have been in the midst of this people and in the great work and labor of redemption. I have desired to live to see this Temple built. But I shall never live to see it completed; but you will—you will.’

Members of the Quorum of the Twelve recorded: “We, the [Twelve], … were present at a council in the latter part of the month of March last [1844], held in the City of Nauvoo. …

“In this council, Joseph Smith seemed somewhat depressed in spirit, and took the liberty to open his heart to us … : ‘Brethren, the Lord bids me hasten the work in which we are engaged. … Some important scene is near to take place. It may be that my enemies will kill me. And in case they should, and the keys and power which rest on me not be imparted to you, they will be lost from the earth. But if I can only succeed in placing them upon your heads, then let me fall a victim to murderous hands if God will suffer it, and I can go with all pleasure and satisfaction, knowing that my work is done, and the foundation laid on which the kingdom of God is to be reared in this dispensation of the fulness of times.

“‘Upon the shoulders of the Twelve must the responsibility of leading this church henceforth rest until you shall appoint others to succeed you. Your enemies cannot kill you all at once, and should any of you be killed, you can lay your hands upon others and fill up your quorum. Thus can this power and these keys be perpetuated in the earth.’ …

“Never shall we forget his feelings or his words on this occasion. After he had thus spoken, he continued to walk the floor, saying: ‘Since I have rolled the burden off from my shoulders, I feel as light as a cork. I feel that I am free. I thank my God for this deliverance.’”

Parley P. Pratt, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, wrote: “This great and good man was led, before his death, to call the Twelve together, from time to time, and to instruct them in all things pertaining to the kingdom, ordinances, and government of God. He often observed that he was laying the foundation, but it would remain for the Twelve to complete the building. Said he, ‘I know not why; but for some reason I am constrained to hasten my preparations, and to confer upon the Twelve all the ordinances, keys, covenants, endowments, and sealing ordinances of the priesthood, and so set before them a pattern in all things pertaining to the sanctuary [the temple] and the endowment therein.’

“Having done this, he rejoiced exceedingly; for, said he, the Lord is about to lay the burden on your shoulders and let me rest awhile; and if they kill me, continued he, the kingdom of God will roll on, as I have now finished the work which was laid upon me, by committing to you all things for the building up of the kingdom according to the heavenly vision, and the pattern shown me from heaven.”

Brigham Young, the second President of the Church, taught: “Joseph conferred upon our heads all the keys and powers belonging to the Apostleship which he himself held before he was taken away, and no man or set of men can get between Joseph and the Twelve in this world or in the world to come. How often has Joseph said to the Twelve, ‘I have laid the foundation and you must build thereon, for upon your shoulders the kingdom rests.’”

taken from: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 6?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Laronius, thanks for posting this. I needed to hear it. I know that I am not as well versed in scripture or church history as many here so sometimes I feel like I'm being tossed about like a canoe on the ocean. When I learn something from one of ya'll though, I try to go back to the source and read all of it to make sure I am understanding. This helps me tremendously, thanks again.

[hyloglyph]

OK, I'll bite - perhaps start with the first one,

"Did any of these people bother to read TPJS and HC where those keys were clearly passed from Joseph to the 12 in the store?" That's a legitimate question I'd be willing to discuss...but nobody asked it.

I'm asking, then - what are the quotes from TPJS and HC? sounds interesting.

And I'd like to add, from the STANDARD WORKS, by which we can test all statements (including a prophet's):

107:
22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.

Seems clear. When the First Presidency is dissolved (e.g. death of the President), then the power resides in the quorum of the Twelve!

Great point!

But I'm sure you are aware Dr Jones, that the section goes on to say that the standing high councils in the various stakes also have equal authority?

Its not top down, all are equal.

Now I take this to mean authority to run the affairs of the church.

I don't think authority necessarily means, keys. I don't think it necessarily means Melchizedek priesthood, I don't think it necessarily means sealing power.

Do you think it does?

[laronius]

Great point!

But I'm sure you are aware Dr Jones, that the section goes on to say that the standing high councils in the various stakes also have equal authority?

Its not top down, all are equal.

Now I take this to mean authority to run the affairs of the church.

I don't think authority necessarily means, keys. I don't think it necessarily means Melchizedek priesthood, I don't think it necessarily means sealing power.

Do you think it does?

I understand the "equal in authority" statement to mean that to the degree responsibilities have been delegated to a lesser quorum, in this case the 70s. their decisions carry the same weight as though the 12 had made it themselves. But this does not mean they stand independent of the 12 or carry veto power. In this same section we read:

34 The Seventy are to act in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Twelve or the traveling high council, in building up the church and regulating all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and then to the Jews—

35 The Twelve being sent out, holding the keys, to open the door by the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and first unto the Gentiles and then unto the Jews.

Though the term "keys" does seem to be explicitly defined in the scriptures, if you look at its use in context, it is the right and responsibility to perform a certain work. If one does not hold the keys (or is delegated responsibility by one who does) one is not authorized by God to do it. While the office of 70 has certain responsibilities, those responsibilities are only to be carried out as directed by the 12. This in my mind constitutes authority.

hyloglyph - if you disagree with the above statements I would be interested in knowing what your definition of keys is and how it differs from authority.

[boo]

I just thought it was funny... I don't have any other BUDDIES here... people here are [AWESOME]!

I agree it was funny. And I AM your buddy. We just have to agree to disagree about a whole pot full of things.

[hyloglyph]

Great point!

But I'm sure you are aware Dr Jones, that the section goes on to say that the standing high councils in the various stakes also have equal authority?

Its not top down, all are equal.

Now I take this to mean authority to run the affairs of the church.

I don't think authority necessarily means, keys. I don't think it necessarily means Melchizedek priesthood, I don't think it necessarily means sealing power.

Do you think it does?

I understand the "equal in authority" statement to mean that to the degree responsibilities have been delegated to a lesser quorum, in this case the 70s. their decisions carry the same weight as though the 12 had made it themselves. But this does not mean they stand independent of the 12 or carry veto power. In this same section we read:

34 The Seventy are to act in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Twelve or the traveling high council, in building up the church and regulating all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and then to the Jews—

35 The Twelve being sent out, holding the keys, to open the door by the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and first unto the Gentiles and then unto the Jews.

Though the term "keys" does seem to be explicitly defined in the scriptures, if you look at its use in context, it is the right and responsibility to perform a certain work. If one does not hold the keys (or is delegated responsibility by one who does) one is not authorized by God to do it. While the office of 70 has certain responsibilities, those responsibilities are only to be carried out as directed by the 12. This in my mind constitutes authority.

hyloglyph - if you disagree with the above statements I would be interested in knowing what your definition of keys is and how it differs from authority.

Yes the 70 are supposed to help the traveling high council when needed.

But why did you change the subject to the 70?

I am talking about the standing high councils within stakes.

They are not under the direction of the 12

The FP is equal in authority to the traveling high council, which is equal in authority to the normal high councils.

Nothing is said about veto power etc.
Where did you get that?

The traveling high council aka the q of 12 is sent out to places that do not have stakes. That is their assignment. The 70 help them when needed. Inside the stakes, the standing high councils handle business.

Why do you think DC constantly calls the 12 the traveling high council?

Everything is there in black and white, just read it.

Furthermore, if you want to talk priesthood,107 outlines the proper channel to receive that in, which is father to son.

[laronius]

It all comes down to keys, which you have not as of yet defined.

[SamFisher]

23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.

I'd point out that this information, from our scriptures, defines the Twelve Apostles and the presidency as "special witnesses."

We members of this church are the ones who erroneously defined them as the only people who can or will receive visions of future events, calamities, and so forth.

[boo]

It all comes down to keys, which you have not as of yet defined.

So what is your definition? Remember it needs to be accurate and comprehensive enough to fit each time it is used in the scriptures

[laronius]

It all comes down to keys, which you have not as of yet defined.

So what is your definition? Remember it needs to be accurate and comprehensive enough to fit each time it is used in the scriptures

Nice try boo, but the term "keys" is used differently depending on the context. Though I guess you could say in general that they unlock something in which case keys of the priesthood unlock authority. They are the right to direct and use of the priesthood on the earth.

I think there should be a standing rule on this forum that you are not allowed to ask a question unless you are willing to answer it yourself, unless of course you just don't know.

[jbalm]

Keys = job description. I know others will give longer definitions, but as a practical matter, it means job description.

[hyloglyph]

It all comes down to keys, which you have not as of yet defined.

Wait, why would I be the one to define "keys"?

What do the scriptures say about it?

Look
That isn't even what I'm talking about
Lay that aside for a second and read section 107.

I am talking about what Dr jones originally posted.

He brought up section 107 to shed light on the events that happened after Joseph and Hyrums death.

You must not see where I'm going?

Read section 107.

Standing high councils in the stakes have are equal in authority to the first presidency.

Where there are no stakes, the traveling high council has authority equal to the first presidency.

All of these quorums are equal in authority.

Now, after JS and Hyrum died,

Why would the 12 now be assumed to have authority INSIDE the stakes?

We already had standing councils there with the same authority.


The job of the 12 as outlined in 107 is to travel to where there are no stakes.


What happened?

Please I am just asking. I'd like to hear from Dr jones too.

[laronius]

But that is my point. The only way a person receives the priesthood and is called to some office within that priesthood, such as high council, 70, 12, etc, is only if someone who holds the keys authorizes it. All of these keys originate, at least in an earthly sense, with the Prophet. He is authorized to delegate certain keys to others or certain responsibilities within the priesthood that don't require the delegation of keys. That is what happens with a stake high council. Keys and responsibilities get delegated down the chain or command until it reaches them. This makes them agents for those above and their decisions become equal in authority to those above kind of in the "whether by my own voice or the voice of my servants it is the same" sense. But this does not mean that those above have relinquished the keys or lost that authority themselves. Christ delegated keys to man but at any point he can override those below him if he chooses because the keys originate with him and can be rescinded at any time he chooses. So it is with man.

D&C 107:58 "It is the duty of the Twelve, also, to ordain and set in order all the other officers of the church..."

As far as DrJones' statement goes:
Seems clear. When the First Presidency is dissolved (e.g. death of the President), then the power resides in the quorum of the Twelve!
He was absolutely right. When the Prophet dies the 1st Presidency is desolved and the keys of the 12 become active, allowing them to govern the affairs of the Church and appoint another President. But this only happens when the Prophet dies because until then the Prophet actively holds these keys. The Lord did not establish His Church intending for every priesthood office to stand independent of all the others. There is a definite line of authority that leads back to Christ.

[wompus]

Yes, the quorums are equal... however that doesn't give a lesser quorum a right to 'judge' a higher quorum or overstep the bounds and rights of a higher quorum... the government of the Kingdom of God is different than man made governments...

What it does is helps us understand authority and the power of 'presiding'... Let's say all the apostles by some freak accident died... where would the authority lie... it would lie with the presidents of the seventies...

Lets say the SHTF and there is no communication with the headquarters of the church and there's a huge earthquake and half of the members die in the earthquake... what do you do... the stake president and his councilors died.. .what would you do... well we already know... there's a high council and the oldest member of the high council now presides!

Let's make it even more local... let's say it's just your ward and the bishop and his councilors are gone and no high priest... well, now it's the eldest elder who presides... and so on and so on....

This was taught by Joseph Smith so we he passed away the apostles and the members of the church wouldn't be led astray....

Presiding is a very important principle in the priesthood and the church... the world looks at this as having authority over... but we in the church know better!

[BroJones]

D&C 107:58 "It is the duty of the Twelve, also, to ordain and set in order all the other officers of the church..."

As far as DrJones' statement goes:
Seems clear. When the First Presidency is dissolved (e.g. death of the President), then the power resides in the quorum of the Twelve!
He was absolutely right. When the Prophet dies the 1st Presidency is dissolved and the keys of the 12 become active, allowing them to govern the affairs of the Church and appoint another President. But this only happens when the Prophet dies because until then the Prophet actively holds these keys. The Lord did not establish His Church intending for every priesthood office to stand independent of all the others. There is a definite line of authority that leads back to Christ.

Well said, Laronius - and thank you!

I just want to add that Joseph Smith said, and it is quoted in the recent RS/Prsth manual, that we should go with the MAJORITY of the twelve, IIRC in controversial issues. This has stuck with me... We may yet again need this counsel (as we as a church did in Nauvoo after the Prophet's martyrdom).

[clarkkent14]

D&C 107:58 "It is the duty of the Twelve, also, to ordain and set in order all the other officers of the church..."

As far as DrJones' statement goes:
Seems clear. When the First Presidency is dissolved (e.g. death of the President), then the power resides in the quorum of the Twelve!
He was absolutely right. When the Prophet dies the 1st Presidency is dissolved and the keys of the 12 become active, allowing them to govern the affairs of the Church and appoint another President. But this only happens when the Prophet dies because until then the Prophet actively holds these keys. The Lord did not establish His Church intending for every priesthood office to stand independent of all the others. There is a definite line of authority that leads back to Christ.

Well said, Laronius - and thank you!

I just want to add that Joseph Smith said, and it is quoted in the recent RS/Prsth manual, that we should go with the MAJORITY of the twelve, IIRC in controversial issues. This has stuck with me... We may yet again need this counsel (as we as a church did in Nauvoo after the Prophet's martyrdom).

Did he say that? http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/his ... art-2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ajax]

Yes, the quorums are equal... however that doesn't give a lesser quorum a right to 'judge' a higher quorum or overstep the bounds and rights of a higher quorum... the government of the Kingdom of God is different than man made governments...

If equal in authority, how then are there lesser and higher quorums?

And "lessers" do have a right to judge "highers".

Else how could the President of the High Priesthood be judged per 107?

For "none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God..." (107:84)