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[Robert Sinclair]

Look to the voice of the Lord saying were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the "church" and not individuals Zion might have been redeemed even now. In the beginning of section 105.

But behold they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh Saints, to the poor and afflicted among them:

It is the faithful Saints that have imparted of their substance as becometh Saints for the poor to the church to the tune of $40,000,000,000.00 and growing.

It is to the "church" that the Lord speaks to that have not taken of these consecrated properties and monies and given them to the poor and afflicted among them as he commanded by covenants and deeds that cannot be broken in section 42. ♡

[freedomforall]

Look to the voice of the Lord saying were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the "church" and not individuals Zion might have been redeemed even now. In the beginning of section 105.

But behold they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh Saints, to the poor and afflicted among them:

It is the faithful Saints that have imparted of their substance as becometh Saints for the poor to the church to the tune of $40,000,000,000.00 and growing.

It is to the "church" that the Lord speaks to that have not taken of these consecrated properties and monies and given them to the poor and afflicted among them as he commanded by covenants and deeds that cannot be broken in section 42. ♡

Like I said, if we as individuals give our substance to the poor and needy, we then are living and keeping our own individual covenants unto the Lord. In doing so, we also are doing what Christ says, Himself...if you do unto the least of these, you do it unto me. So an accounting of what the church does is not my concern because I pay and give according to my own covenant, nothing else.
The Lord will handle the rest in His own due time. What better test than to see who among us will pay and give without being compelled nor grudgingly, who is faithful and who is not to their own covenants. How do we know that the Lord isn't testing the saints to see who is for Him and who is against Him? Who does things cheerfully or with animosity. Wheat and tares, wheat and tares. The test is going to bring out both big time.

[Robert Sinclair]

Are you not your brother's keeper?

Do you not care for the welfare of their souls?

God has said to sound the alarm that the old men and administers of the law might give ear.

You might just do more good than you yet realize. ♡

[freedomforall]

Are you not your brother's keeper?

Do you not care for the welfare of their souls?

God has said to sound the alarm that the old men and administers of the law might give ear.

You might just do more good than you yet realize. ♡

I am not a keeper of anyone that, for whatever reason and purpose, criticize the church or its leaders. Nor those who in the slightest degree demand an accounting of the church's activities.
I am a keeper of those in need, the humble, the meek, the poor and afflicted, striving to do as Christ says in having and showing charity, giving of my substance to make someone elses life a little better.
How can anyone be caring of the souls of those that are haughty, rebellious or fault finding? Only Christ can be a physician to them. Only the guilty can soften their own hearts and "come unto Christ". And there is a huge difference between helping someone and enabling them.
There are many people that could be self sufficient but would rather bleed unnecessary wants out of others. I've met a few church members like this.
Even God does not give us everything we ask for or want. He expects people to work by the sweat of their brow, if able to, but choose otherwise. Perhaps I'm in error, but I think a line has to be drawn somewhere. The Savior was upset with people he helped that didn't give thanks. I think we can use our own discernment in some cases.

[Robert Sinclair]

Again if the Lord has asked you to sound the alarm and blow the trumpet so as to awaken the old men and the administrators of the law because of the perversion of equity in the vineyard, why are you saying "no thanks" not me?

The only reason I can understand why is that you have not understood that this is what the Lord has asked you to do.

Please take some time to look through the book of Joel and again ask yourself "no thanks Lord not for me to sound the alarm because I understand not what you are saying" or you can tell me, I tell you there is no way shape or form the Lord is asking for us that read and understand the book of Joel to sound the alarm nor blow the trumpet in Zion.
If you have not read nor understood what I can plainly see the Lord saying then I can understand because you have not read what the Lord has said.

I would that you could take a look at the whole book of Joel and answer yes or no, he does ask us to sound the alarm or no he does not. The time grows short.

Thank you for your time and care to look in this matter if you will. ♡

When and if you ever do a book report on the words of Jesus Christ of all the things he said to do, and all the ways he said to be like, and all the things he said to know, you will eventually come across the book of Joel and as you continue to write down the things that Jesus Christ has said you will see what I am talking about.

It will become incumbent upon you to decide, do as Jesus Christ has said or not.

That is all. ♡

[samizdat]

http://bycommonconsent.org/

if I did that right, you should be looking at a link the go and view a simply worded petition. the purpose of the petition is to let the church leaders know we want transparency in church finance. read it. be bold and sign it.

what's the worst that can happen - you self identify as a responsible person seeking to be responsible and they take away your temple recommend and kick you out of the church? does that idea concern you? doesn't it bother you more to be in a fear-based relationship?

The Church is quite transparent with our INDIVIDUAL donations to the Church. That is shown in Tithing Settlement.

Not so much generally.

What others give for tithing is none of my business. Unless I became a bishop and presided a Tithing Settlement.

The Lord will punish those that misuse His monies.

[Obrien]

Samizdat - I've been waiting for a useful post to respond to. Ffa sees things his own way, and Robert, well Robert explains his own posts. ( love ya Robert)

I agree that donations given to the church should remain confidential on an individual basis. I have no interest in seeing what you or any other member gives in tithes and offerings. I agree that we will individually be accountable to Jesus for how we follow his gospel. part of his gospel is giving to those in need without reservation and without pride. very difficult doctrine to actually live.

as I considered how to respond to your comment about the Lord punishing those who may misuse tithing, the following quote popped into my mind. I take it as inspiration.

"When performance is measured, performance improves. When performance is measured and reported, the rate of improvement accelerates." Thomas Monson in Conference Report October 1970, 107.

I just want the ability to see an honest accounting for the income ( in general terms, not individually), the outflow and the retained funds. I hope you do, too, samizdat.

[samizdat]

Samizdat - I've been waiting for a useful post to respond to. Ffa sees things his own way, and Robert, well Robert explains his own posts. ( love ya Robert)

I agree that donations given to the church should remain confidential on an individual basis. I have no interest in seeing what you or any other member gives in tithes and offerings. I agree that we will individually be accountable to Jesus for how we follow his gospel. part of his gospel is giving to those in need without reservation and without pride. very difficult doctrine to actually live.

as I considered how to respond to your comment about the Lord punishing those who may misuse tithing, the following quote popped into my mind. I take it as inspiration.

"When performance is measured, performance improves. When performance is measured and reported, the rate of improvement accelerates." Thomas Monson in Conference Report October 1970, 107.

I just want the ability to see an honest accounting for the income ( in general terms, not individually), the outflow and the retained funds. I hope you do, too, samizdat.

What the Church does to the tithing of the people can be seen far and wide. Building of chapels and temples all around the world, publishing of scriptures, manuals, and the like, training of leaders, etcetera.

What people THINK the Church does to tithing (shopping malls, pet projects, BYU football) and what the Church actually DOES to tithing (what I mentioned above--chapels, temples, scriptures, etc) are two different concepts.

I did my part. Paid my 10 percent. What the Church decides to do with that money is up to the Church not up to us. If they misuse it they will be judged. Not me, not you.

But, Obrien, so you don't feel so bad or angry or whatever, what WOULD YOU do if you were sitting on the Council of Disposition of Tithes, how would YOU decide where the money goes. Remember, we are dealing with a church of 15 million plus members present in 192 countries and territories.

[skmo]

I'm not asking you to question the Lord, but I'm not confusing TM with the Lord. it's TM & Co I'd like to know about. I implicitly trust the Lord's word.

Since the President is the person God has placed at the Head of His church, I believe He will remove him if needed. If he does stray, there are 14 other ordained prophets who can speak with and for God, I have faith He will guide them appropriately to lead the whole of the church. If they do something that I disagree with impacting my family or my house, I will question it. The LDS Church is God's church, and I believe He has sufficient leadership to direct it according to His will. If there are failings in how this is done, He, the all-powerful and all-knowing creator of the universe certainly can handle things.

Of course, to any who feel all 15 have fallen from God's will, I'm sure there must be a grove nearby.

[samizdat]

In the case of tithing, you are talking about 18 individuals:

The First Presidency (3)
The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (12)
The Presiding Bishopric (3).

Nice quote at the end there skmo. There MUST be a grove nearby if you think all 15 have gone off the wayside. I'm not going to sacrifice my membership in the Church to follow some lunatic that thinks he's a prophet but is really the spitting image of past lawyers that thought they knew better. (For those that might question, the lunatic I am referring to is DS)

[Obrien]

skmo - so you're saying you're a disinterested potential apostate? When "they" do something you disagree with you'll question the ordained leaders then? That is a sad faith, imho.

I want to have more confidence in their leadership now. Financial disclosure is a way to help achieve that.

[Obrien]

sam I'm not sacrificing my membership either. I just want to be able to do what my grandpa did - look at an audited report to see how we are doing as an organization.

I'm a little slow on the uptake today - what does the tithing of the leaders have to do with anything? I could care less how much they individually give.

[jockeybox]

But, Obrien, so you don't feel so bad or angry or whatever, what WOULD YOU do if you were sitting on the Council of Disposition of Tithes, how would YOU decide where the money goes. Remember, we are dealing with a church of 15 million plus members present in 192 countries and territories.

I know you didn't ask me this, but I'll respond.

I think it should start from the bottom and work on up.

Once individual and familial needs are met, pay tithing on the surplus to the bishop. Once the ward members and those (non-members) within the jurisdiction of the bishops needs are met, pass most of the excess onto the stake. Once the stake needs are meet, pass it on up.

I also like the idea of one stake "adopting" another stake that is "in need". Most of us in the US have all our needs met. The excess in my stake would work miracles in stake(s) of under developed countries.

We may not be able to invest the millions and billions and get a huge ROI, but I suspect we have enough to take care of our own. What a blessing that would be.

It's unrealistic to think 15-20 men can meet the needs manage all of the churches money. But they can help facilitate. It should be handled on a much smaller level, stake level at the highest, but bishop is probably more manageable. Many on here agree that bigger government isn't better. Are we giving our church government too much power?

This is only my opinion, but we are such a proud people, many bishops and stakes don't ask for extra money, because we always want to appear in the black. Nobody wants to be the ward that used more than what they brought in. That wouldn't be financially fiscal. As a result, beggars petitions go unanswered (again, only my opinion).

I would give up a temple or two, knowing millions of kids are getting fed, clothed and seeing proper medical care as a result. That would make my soul sing.

Even if the idea above sucks, I'm confident that the Lord could give us direction. If this scripture is no longer applicable:

all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith (D&C 26:2).

then hopefully the Lord can reveal His will to His people on what we should do.

[Obrien]

sorry Sam - I missed your one post where you asked what I would do. the honest answer is I have no idea, aside from going to the Lord and pleading for His guidance.

my guiding principles ( outside of guidance from the Lord) for using funds would be along these lines:

I would call for institutional and individual repentance for our sloth in following the Lord's direction to take care of the hungry, thirsty, sick, widows and orphans, etc.

we have an insanely opulent lifestyle in the USA. I would encourage the members to more carefully parse their needs from their wants, and encourage them to give in their own geographic locations to those in need as directed by the Spirit.

I would put the Lord to the test, and give away everything that came in to the church coffers every year. I have faith that the Lord will do His work without an earthly safety net.

I would make sure all officials of the church, from PSRs to bishops, who need to make a claim on the church for their maintenance, were afforded funds for a decent and modest lifestyle.

I would teach people the correct principle that Joseph Smith taught, namely that self aggrandizement is a true principle IF you seek to aggeandize those around you as well.

I would terminate the 501c3 status, divest of taxable assets and make tithing a sacrifice more than a tax write off.

I would teach bishops ( the main stewards of church funds) that there are no free lunches for those capable of work.

I would continually reinforce the idea that when we are in service of our fellows, we are in the service of God.

above all, I would seek inspiration to know what to do and unity as children of Christ, so we'd be happy to do it.

those are my ideas of the cuff. I have no ambition to sit in control of a grand wealthy church council. I have no illusions that my ideas would work. At this point, i just really want the opportunity to see what they do with the money. that's all. I hope it's all clean and above board. I've seen enough good people corrupted by money to know its a possibility. oversight and shame help mitigate the possibility of corruption.

[jbalm]

I'd buy an island.

[Obrien]

as long as it's antelope island I would back you up. oh, I wouldn't support you getting a boat...
edit - or fuel.

[ajax]

Since the President is the person God has placed at the Head of His church, I believe He will remove him if needed.

Yes, the mere fact that any of the 15 are still breathing is proof enough. I love the idea that if Dudes are alive and breathing, they are on the right track, and if they die, there was something nefarious around the corner. It's sooo cute.

[Obrien]

question for Ajax - what happens if the auto pen runs out of ink? Is that proof the auto pen sinned and was removed from its place?
and what is the line of authority for auto pens? how do we know the next one will be true, faithful. and never lead the members astray?

[Obrien]

I SAID it was a question for AJAX...

[Obrien]

brothers and sisters, I've said my piece. thanks to those of you who had the courage to sign up. to those of you who didn't, I pray for peace to be upon you.

To the brethren, I say the time has come to gain the trust of the sheep by being open and honest in the financial dealings of the church. only the evil one seeks to act in the dark, and the lay members have been in the dark too long regarding the finances of your kingdom.

[boo]

I'm not asking you to question the Lord, but I'm not confusing TM with the Lord. it's TM & Co I'd like to know about. I implicitly trust the Lord's word.

Since the President is the person God has placed at the Head of His church, I believe He will remove him if needed. If he does stray, there are 14 other ordained prophets who can speak with and for God, I have faith He will guide them appropriately to lead the whole of the church. If they do something that I disagree with impacting my family or my house, I will question it. The LDS Church is God's church, and I believe He has sufficient leadership to direct it according to His will. If there are failings in how this is done, He, the all-powerful and all-knowing creator of the universe certainly can handle things.

Of course, to any who feel all 15 have fallen from God's will, I'm sure there must be a grove nearby.

This assumes the very issue in controversy

[boo]

as long as it's antelope island I would back you up. oh, I wouldn't support you getting a boat...
edit - or fuel.

Slacker. I know of several much nicer ones in the Bahamas

[Robert Sinclair]

None of the twelve and seventy shepherds are to be removed until they have finished their work of destroying the blind sheep along with their blind selves. Otherwise the prophecy of the prophet Enoch shall not be fulfilled. Both must be thrust into the flaming abyss.

I don't like these sayings in the Book of Enoch nonetheless they are there for the whole earth to see.

None but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has twelve and seventy shepherds appointed to such a work.

Not the Jews nor the Muslim nor Buddhists and Hindu no no one but them.

Most disturbing news when I read these words of Enoch.

Must they bake in the lake, is there no hope?

My only fallback was the great "if" written and given by Jesus Christ himself.

I have hope the great "if" can trump the thrust into the flaming abyss written.

Cry unto the Lord to spare these twelve and seventy shepherds a little bit longer "if" it may be of his will ♡

Give them just a bit more time to liquidate the assets of the church and distribute unto the poor and needy by covenants and deeds as Jesus Christ has commanded.

Please. ♡

[freedomforall]

sorry Sam - I missed your one post where you asked what I would do. the honest answer is I have no idea, aside from going to the Lord and pleading for His guidance.

my guiding principles ( outside of guidance from the Lord) for using funds would be along these lines:

I would call for institutional and individual repentance for our sloth in following the Lord's direction to take care of the hungry, thirsty, sick, widows and orphans, etc.

we have an insanely opulent lifestyle in the USA. I would encourage the members to more carefully parse their needs from their wants, and encourage them to give in their own geographic locations to those in need as directed by the Spirit.

I would put the Lord to the test, and give away everything that came in to the church coffers every year. I have faith that the Lord will do His work without an earthly safety net.

I would make sure all officials of the church, from PSRs to bishops, who need to make a claim on the church for their maintenance, were afforded funds for a decent and modest lifestyle.

I would teach people the correct principle that Joseph Smith taught, namely that self aggrandizement is a true principle IF you seek to aggeandize those around you as well.

I would terminate the 501c3 status, divest of taxable assets and make tithing a sacrifice more than a tax write off.

I would teach bishops ( the main stewards of church funds) that there are no free lunches for those capable of work.

I would continually reinforce the idea that when we are in service of our fellows, we are in the service of God.

above all, I would seek inspiration to know what to do and unity as children of Christ, so we'd be happy to do it.

those are my ideas of the cuff. I have no ambition to sit in control of a grand wealthy church council. I have no illusions that my ideas would work. At this point, i just really want the opportunity to see what they do with the money. that's all. I hope it's all clean and above board. I've seen enough good people corrupted by money to know its a possibility. oversight and shame help mitigate the possibility of corruption.

And where does free agency fit into this plan? Although God has numerous rules and commandments for us to live by, He will not remove our own agency in order to get His way. That was Lucifer's plan. And the very reason he got kicked out of heaven. Oh, and he wanted recognition for it.

It is our responsibility to feed the poor, etc. We are then using our agency in following God's plan.

Look, if one wants to take this to a higher level...then why doesn't, why isn't God feeding all His children? Isn't the reason that, even if He really wants to, He wants His children to take care of each other, using their God given agency in doing so, in order to share and grow in the principle of charity? Many of the required righteous principles we are to implement in our lives...are not just handed to us, we must learn them then practice them. If God fed everyone then we would not learn charity, and, IMO, the poor would not learn thanksgiving and gratitude at all levels.

[Robert Sinclair]

Search among those in your own wards and branches and stakes and see to it they all have sufficient for their wants and needs especially a covenant and a deed that cannot be broken into their hands if you can help those that still rent but would like to own someday. See about helping to fix their credit by helping them into groups in your area that help with this.

But also do as Jesus Christ has said and sound the alarm about the perversion of equity from the heads thereof and see if they might give ear and ask "Hath this been in our day? "

Yes, yes it has. ♡