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That's sad.

I mean, I completely understand why you feel the way you do. I have some of the same reservations.

It's just sad that we have to feel that way (or anyone else, for that matter).

I went back to it a few times before I could muster up the courage and I thought the same thing.

[Obrien]

if you find the totem pole scripture ( that's an awesome description, btw) please post it. I agree that if the brethren don't use funds correctly, they will be held to account for that. wouldn't it be the charitable thing to be responsible and help them stay on course before that happens?

I can tell you've suffered on account of your relationship with the church before, and I don't want to be the source of anxiety for you. I'm glad your back on a good path for you.

plus, you have the good common sense to tell off wompus when he's getting antsy.

please post the totem pole if you find it.

[Robert Sinclair]

Have faith in the Scriptures for there are many written of God with direct council of what to say unto the prophets when things are not quite right from his people.

Such as in Jeremiah chapter 23.

And the Book of Joel.

Where he says directly to his Saints to sound the alarm and blow the trumpet in Zion.

This is not asking you to stone the prophets but simply to give them cause to give ear.

This is no apostasy but doing as God has asked of his people. ♡

[Reggie]

[flash=]https://www.youtube.com/v/D67g476Ccws[/flash]

Ok, Obrien for your entertainment. This is my first time trying this so I hope it works.

[flash=]https://www.youtube.com//?v=648gwElcPzU[/flash]

Ok, I'm doing something wrong. Can't figure it out. @-)

[Obrien]

Have faith in the Scriptures for there are many written of God with direct council of what to say unto the prophets when things are not quite right from his people.

Such as in Jeremiah chapter 23.

And the Book of Joel.

Where he says directly to his Saints to sound the alarm and blow the trumpet in Zion.

This is not asking you to stone the prophets but simply to give them cause to give ear.

This is no apostasy but doing as God has asked of his people. ♡

I'm trying, Robert. that's why I started this whole thread. thanks for signing up btw.

[Epistemology]

No i haven't signed it and I don't intend to.

To me this type of stuff is rebellious by nature even if there are good intentions. Rebellious behaviors and thoughts in matters dealing with the Lord and His work is not pleasing to our Father and our Savior.

You or others may feel that this does not qualify as being rebellious in spirit and that's fine but I would disagree.

It's not a matter of whether your right or wrong, it's the rebellious spirit that is abhorrent in the sight of God.

An analogy, as the saying goes, there is a fine line between confidence and cockiness, for example, and I think that's true. Confidence is a good thing, cockiness or arrogance is not.

There is a fine line between lots of actions and attitudes. Standing firm on what is right vs. being stubborn. Voicing your opinion vs. complaining. The spirit of a law and the letter of a law.

IMHO this type of stuff is the spirit of rebelliousness. I have been too rebellious in life and made lot's of mistakes so Im not judging anyone here.

[Obrien]

I respect your opinion, I thought Elvis would swing you...

[Obrien]

I don't question The Lord. He has not given me any reason to question the church leaders in any areas other than I have already expressed. If I mismanage my money, I am accountable. If someone else mismanages The Lord's money, they are responsible. To those who feel the need to put on airs and sit in judgment of those called by prophecy and ordained by the priesthood, may you find the answers you seek without falling too deep into the well of criticism.

I'm not asking you to question the Lord, but I'm not confusing TM with the Lord. it's TM & Co I'd like to know about. I implicitly trust the Lord's word.

[wompus]

If you don't trust President Monson, then why do you flaunt his picture... Is that just arrogance or do you like showing him picture so people will THINK you sustain him when in actuality you're [SUPER DUPER AWESOME!!!!]... It think its both!

[jbalm]

'Tis nothing but a graven image. Nothing to get your undies in a bunch over.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

I think Grumpy cat has a strong testimony!

A testimony is knowledge. I think grumpy cat has an opinion.

Jules you're back.... so you don't QUITE hate me...

Grumpy Cat sure brings people together!

I don't hate anyone! (Even when I'm doing my job..... ;) )

[Obrien]

wompus - I keep it because you backslid. it was the pretty lightning picture my daughter took until you broke our deal.

[shestalou]

No need I know where Im going and thats all that matters to me! ;)

[Obrien]

shestalou - I'm glad you have a surety. Peace be unto you.

[wompus]

I think Grumpy cat has a strong testimony!

A testimony is knowledge. I think grumpy cat has an opinion.

Jules you're back.... so you don't QUITE hate me...

Grumpy Cat sure brings people together!
I don't hate anyone! (Even when I'm doing my job..... ;) )

Does your job include censorship?

[wompus]

wompus - I keep it because you backslid. it was the pretty lightning picture my daughter took until you broke our deal.

Seems like you base your decisions on the decisions of others... I've repented of our deal...

[boo]

So I'm attacking... okay, I won't do any attacking here... I'll state MY opinion...

First of all, the church is auditing not just according to GAAP, they are audited according to the revelations the Lord has given... if you have ever listened to an April conference and heard the auditing report... you will see that there are several types of audit's performed... ie GAAP audit by CPA's, system audit and internal auditors who are given instructions to audit the financials of the church based on the churches guidelines...

Most people don't understand what this means... as being in the financial industry with my licenses I know how it works in a large organization... The head of the organization doesn't make all the financial decisions of the organization, that would be impossible, so they set guidelines and then have auditors audit the organization based on those guidelines... those auditors work with the decision makers to point out errors, correct and sustain their decisions. If they find an error or a way to make things better, they point it out to make sure the guidelines are being followed... Most auditing companies follow strict guidelines as their reputation is on the line... their reputation is what brings them business. If they audit something and later its found to be in error, that could cost them a WHOLE lot of money, or even their practice...

So yes, they are audited independently based on the revelations of the Lord... and many of those auditors are not friendly to the church and are very critical, just like you guys are, of the church... heck, many of them are members and are very critical... the church goes through great lengths to be in compliant with the revelations of the church... not that people understand that...

Secondly, I don't see where it says the church has to be transparent in all things... and if I remember right, all things will be made known, so you're not wanting to share your financials is really futile, I'll know someday where you were a hypocrite or not, if you donated your money to the poor or not... I don't think the church owes me anything... I'm not ENTITLED to judge the church...

And that's really my opinion... I believe the church is true, I believe men who are mortals run the church... I know for a fact church funds have been mishandled at times, doesn't the Lord give someone authority and want to see what they do with that authority... does that give you the right to criticize... is the church like a political party that you have the supposed right to campaign the church for changes to their policies... Does your tithing dollars earn you a 'vote' in the church? Does money even matter to the Lord... is it more about you obeying the commandments than making sure everyone makes the right choices? No one has really given me a good argument other than quoting some scriptures saying that they think they should have a right to inspect the financials of the church.... and quite honestly I don't care if they do or not make them public... what people will not do here on this blog is admit their intentions behind WHY they want to see those financials... it's to find FAULT with the church to gratify their pride...

I believe the church is ran by a prophet called of God... I don't care so much if people called to positions make mistakes because I'll be judged the same way... I figure if I'm critical of the church not being perfect in their expenditures that the Lord will treat me the same way, and I guarantee the church dontates 1000x the percentage to charity than people here do with their funds, and I'm not talking dollar amount, I'm talking percent of income!

My friend i might be convinced by your rhetoric if you can explain 2 things to me . First why did the church engage in financial transparency for 120 years then suddenly stop when it faced a financial crisis in 1951 ? Secondly why if it fully discloses it financial income and expenses in Canada and Great Britian ( as it does as required by law ) doesn't it do the same thing in the US. Shouldn't US saints get the same type of disclosure it gives members elsewhere concerning the use of their tithing ?

[FoxMammaWisdom]

I think Grumpy cat has a strong testimony!

A testimony is knowledge. I think grumpy cat has an opinion.

Jules you're back.... so you don't QUITE hate me...

Grumpy Cat sure brings people together!
I don't hate anyone! (Even when I'm doing my job..... ;) )

Does your job include censorship?

Sometimes

[Reggie]

I guess the bottom line of this whole thread is: Does the membership have the right and responsibility to correct the leadership if they feel they are astray? or Should the membership support the leadership without questioning even if they can see things that appear askew. Those believing it is not their place to correct; but the Lords'. I would like to see scriptures to support both sides. Robert threw out Jeremiah 23 to support the first position. I read that but did not see anything about the sheep (that would be the membership) stepping in to correct. :-B

[Robert Sinclair]

Read the book of Joel now. It is only three chapters and therein you will see the call to the Saints awakening and sounding the alarm and blow the trumpet in Zion that the old men and administers of the law may hear and awaken and give heed unto God's Word.

♡

[Robert Sinclair]

Are you not as one of the inhabitants of the land or as one of the vinedressers? Are you not to howl about the leaves and the bark being stripped off the trees?

Yes, yes you should as God has said through his prophet Joel. ♡

[Robert Sinclair]

Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. ♡(Joel 3:14)♡

[Robert Sinclair]

The sun shall be turned into darkness, the moon shall be turned into blood before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. ♡(Joel 2:31)♡

[Robert Sinclair]

The leaves and bark of the trees which were to bear fruits that are equal and delightful unto the Lord are instead having members sleeping in their cars and others with millions and billions at their disposal.

The bride has not been clothed with the fine linens of equity and righteousness and justice and goodness to be brought before the bridegroom. ♡

[Robert Sinclair]

I believe that the signing of this is just a small part of sounding the alarm about the pastures being dried up and vineyards stripped of their leaves and bark and fruits that are not equal and delightful unto the Lord as he has commanded. Have no fear of seeking to sound the alarm as God has said. ♡