Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

[msurkan]

Does anyone know if there are any descendants of Joseph Smith who had mothers other than Emma? Joseph had so many wives it would seem that there should be at least some resulting offspring.

The only thing I could find on this subject was some articles from several years back stating that someone was planning on doing some DNA testing of the wives' descendants. I don't know what the results of these tests were. This should be pretty easy to prove (or disprove) conclusively.

It would really raise a lot of questions if none of Joseph's polygamist offspring could be found.

[Desert Roses]

Does anyone know if there are any descendants of Joseph Smith who had mothers other than Emma? Joseph had so many wives it would seem that there should be at least some resulting offspring.

The only thing I could find on this subject was some articles from several years back stating that someone was planning on doing some DNA testing of the wives' descendants. I don't know what the results of these tests were. This should be pretty easy to prove (or disprove) conclusively.

It would really raise a lot of questions if none of Joseph's polygamist offspring could be found.

You'd think if there were any, that in the early days in Utah, they would have been known and held up as VIPs, particularly since the practice of polygamy was seen as so much a part of life, and Joseph was idolized. Sisters who had children by Joseph would have come forward, it seems to me. The fact that they didn't says a lot.

[AI2.0]

Over the years some people have claimed to be descendents of Joseph Smith. As DNA testing has improved these claims have been tested. So far all of these claims have been proven wrong through DNA testing done by Ugo Perego.

I suspect that some polygamous wives claimed their children were Joseph's because of the laws of adoption of the Temple sealings as they understood them.

The only known descendents of Joseph Smith are those children borne to him and his wife, Emma Smith.

[ithink]

Does anyone know if there are any descendants of Joseph Smith who had mothers other than Emma? Joseph had so many wives it would seem that there should be at least some resulting offspring.

The only thing I could find on this subject was some articles from several years back stating that someone was planning on doing some DNA testing of the wives' descendants. I don't know what the results of these tests were. This should be pretty easy to prove (or disprove) conclusively.

It would really raise a lot of questions if none of Joseph's polygamist offspring could be found.

I have answers for this but I have no time to post them now.

[msurkan]

It would really raise a lot of questions if none of Joseph's polygamist offspring could be found.

You'd think if there were any, that in the early days in Utah, they would have been known and held up as VIPs, particularly since the practice of polygamy was seen as so much a part of life, and Joseph was idolized. Sisters who had children by Joseph would have come forward, it seems to me. The fact that they didn't says a lot.

The more I am reading about Mormon polygamy the more I am wondering about the veracity of the claims Joseph Smith was actually a practitioner. All the claims about Joseph's polygamy were made in Utah, long after the Prophet had passed away. Moreover, the biggest accumulation of documentary evidence is a series of affidavits put together under the direction of Joseph Fielding Smith in the late 1800s when the RLDS missionaries started winning converts in Utah by claiming that Joseph had never practiced polygamy.

These post-fact claims are suspect, in my view, seeing as how there were a lot of ulterior motives to prove that Joseph had been a polygamist to bolster the credibility of the Utah LDS church. Could some people have embellished the truth under the questioning of apostles? When you believe the person before you is an authority of God and you know they want to hear positive declarations of Joseph's polygamist past then perhaps you would feel some desire to give them what they want.

Even the revelations in support of polygamy didn't surface until after the Saints were in Utah. Brigham Young explained that there had been a secret revelation given to Joseph which later became D&C 132.

I am sure that some saints practiced polygamy prior to 1844 for the simple fact that Joseph excommunicated people for practicing it and made public pronouncements as to the blasphemy of the it.

Like I said earlier, DNA evidence that Joseph had polygamist descendants would put this whole issue to rest once and for all.

[boo]

There is none.However you can't prove something by a lack of evidence. It is a logical error called affirming the negative.

[Ben McClintock]

:ymdevil:

[msurkan]

@Ezra - Thank you SO much for such an in depth discussion of this subject. It is intensely fascinating.

One thing I note in your comments, however, is that it seems like most of the evidence for Joseph's polygamy come from people who went to Utah with Brigham. What non Utah sources are there? For example, did Sidney Rigdon say that Joseph practiced polygamy? I was under the impression that Oliver Coudery never spoke about it (although he did think Joseph was having an affair with Fanny Alger his statements never mentioned that there had been a marriage).

What seems confusing is that there were many church leaders in Nauvoo who didn't know anything about the teachings of polygamy while others did. Why wouldn't all the top church leaders (council of 50, etc) have known about the revelation?

[Fiannan]

To say that just because a sect existed that taught spiritual marriage then that must be why the Church has celestial marriage is pushing the conspiracy thing a bit far. It would be akin to claiming that the trend for people removing all body hair must be connected to Islam as Muslims believe that the body is a temple and allowing body hair (secondary hair that comes after puberty) is against God's wishes. See, a hundred years from now an Islamic scholar at an Islamic university in Cheyenne, Wyoming could say that it was when Muslims started immigrating to Europe and North America that is when grooming patterns changed in the populations they interacted with.

Oh and in regards to your post Ezra Taylor:

Prophets throughout time have given false impressions from time to time in an effort to protect those around them. Abram (Abraham) mislead Pharaoh about Sarai, giving the impression that He and Sarai were not married, but brother and sister (Genesis 12:11–20), and Abraham was misleading again to the King of Gerar about his wife Sarai when he said to him, “She is my sister” (Genesis 20:2).

Yes, Abraham misled the Pharaoh -- but only slightly. Abraham and Sarah had the same father but a different mother. So like when Gordon B. Hinckley said polygamy and eternal progression were not necessarily doctrine the members knew what he meant, but not the general audience of Larry King.

[Chip]

...Admittedly, Joseph being sealed to already married women is an extremely tough aspect of his prophetic ministry, but in the end, we have to take it on faith that either he was doing the commands of the Lord or he was falling for the lusts of his heart. The evidence alone is inconclusive. In the end, which option you choose to believe will most likely be based on your own testimony/prejudice towards the Prophet.

Is this really an A or B issue? Could it be that at some point he began doing things that weren't right? King David had done many miraculous things by the Lord and then made a series of mistakes by succumbing to the 'natural man'.

[Chip]

@Ezra - Thank you SO much for such an in depth discussion of this subject. It is intensely fascinating.

One thing I note in your comments, however, is that it seems like most of the evidence for Joseph's polygamy come from people who went to Utah with Brigham. What non Utah sources are there? For example, did Sidney Rigdon say that Joseph practiced polygamy? I was under the impression that Oliver Coudery never spoke about it (although he did think Joseph was having an affair with Fanny Alger his statements never mentioned that there had been a marriage).

What seems confusing is that there were many church leaders in Nauvoo who didn't know anything about the teachings of polygamy while others did. Why wouldn't all the top church leaders (council of 50, etc) have known about the revelation?

If you read the first and only issue of the Nauvoo Expositor that William Law published, it is evident that polygamy was in practice, but not known of by everyone. There seemed to be a lot of secrecy surrounding it.

Here is a wiki page with a link to a facsimile of the original publication:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauvoo_Expositor

It seems to me that the intrigues surrounding polygamy snowballed into Joseph's death in a rather short time, though there were other contributing factors. The belief that people's wives and daughters were being inducted into secret marriages with some powerful religious leader would motivate people of just about any community to seek that man's life. Another thing to consider is how Joseph talked about an angel with a flaming sword, compelling him to engage in polygamy, and Emma had better go along with it, or she would be destroyed, too. Does God force people to Heaven?

After Joseph died, Emma wanted nothing more to do with the church and it's said that Brigham Young believed that she had tried to poison Joseph. It's not hard for me to understand why she might have wanted to, given the ongoing deceit and betrayal she had experienced.

I used to not think much about this whole polygamy thing, but someone on the forum mentioned a book called "It's Not About The Sex, My A**!" which sounded intriguing to me (natural man there). It was about a woman whose family joined the TLC church in Manti, led by a "prophet" named Harmston. That book really opened my eyes to the madness of polygamy. My wife read it, too, and was really affected. If polygamy is truly a Heavenly concept, almost nobody on Earth here has the capacity to do it right. It's a freakin' smorgasbord of intrigue and debauchery, in practice. As I started reading accounts of early polygamist wives in the LDS church, I could see the same patterns as what recently went on in the TLC. It's a destructive system, is all I can register, for sure. I have a hard time believing that it is of God, or was of God in the case of Joseph, onward.

[msurkan]

If you read the first and only issue of the Nauvoo Expositor that William Law published, it is evident that polygamy was in practice, but not known of by everyone. There seemed to be a lot of secrecy surrounding it.
[...] Another thing to consider is how Joseph talked about an angel with a flaming sword, compelling him to engage in polygamy, and Emma had better go along with it, or she would be destroyed, too.

I am sure that polygamy was being practiced by some people in Nauvoo. The question, however, is if Joseph Smith was one of those practitioners. Did Emma ever make a public statement about Joseph's practice of polygamy?

The problem continues to be that virtually all the statements incriminating Joseph for polygamist practices come from people who followed Brigham to Utah. Even the statement about Joseph's vision of the sword came from Utah Mormons in their memoirs years later. We have nothing in Joseph's own journals or writings to support that.

What I want to see is witness testimony from people who did not follow Brigham to Utah regarding Joseph's practice of polygamy.

[Leejae]

It's my opinion that JS wasn't practicing polygamy the way everyone else ended up doing it. The absolute best discussions on the topic come from...wait for it..... Denver Snuffer (I realize that's bad news for many of ya'll). I am with you msurkan. I think the dudes surrounding Joseph brought their polygamous ideas with them from other sects. We picture Joseph like a powerful, benevolent leader who was in charge of everything and everyone (like the church is now)...when really we had a bunch of powerful personalities latched onto a meek and pleasant and young Joseph Smith and his story and his gold book. All of whom had their own ideas. I think they misunderstood Joseph, I think they misunderstood the need for an organized "restoration" of a New Testamenet church, I think they misunderstood priesthood, and I think we're still in a big misunderstanding of what God WANTED "restored."

I believe that all of the DNA possibilities for children through anyone but Emma have now been exhausted. Search DS's blog - his thoughts on polygamy are the most full of light that I've read.

[Chip]

I am sure that polygamy was being practiced by some people in Nauvoo. The question, however, is if Joseph Smith was one of those practitioners. Did Emma ever make a public statement about Joseph's practice of polygamy?

John Dehlin interviewed Grant Palmer twice on Mormon Stories. In the second interview, Grant had a lot to say about what seems to have gone on with Joseph and Emma. I don't know if his sources were not from Utah, though.

[msurkan]

I am sure that polygamy was being practiced by some people in Nauvoo. The question, however, is if Joseph Smith was one of those practitioners. Did Emma ever make a public statement about Joseph's practice of polygamy?

John Dehlin interviewed Grant Palmer twice on Mormon Stories. In the second interview, Grant had a lot to say about what seems to have gone on with Joseph and Emma. I don't know if his sources were not from Utah, though.

I listened to the same interviews. Unfortunately, Messr Palmer relied exclusively on Utah sources. In fact, Palmer himself mentioned numerous times the paucity of information sources that were contemporary to when the events occurred. I was perplexed at why Palmer wasn't questioning the Utah sources he was citing a little more. Palmer pointed out that most of the affidavits were put together at the behest of Joseph Fielding Smith as part of the effort to counter the RLDS. This fact alone (i.e. that Fielding Smith was trying to fight the RLDS missions) should cause a lot of questions. The record should be questioned when it's very collection was motivated by a desire to prove something.

[AI2.0]

Chip cited the one and only edition of the Nauvoo Expositor. William Law and and other former Mormons were behind this paper in which they accused Joseph of practicing Polygamy (I believe they called it 'spiritual wifery') and none of them went West with Brigham Young.

I think that's pretty strong evidence that Polygamy did NOT originate with Brigham Young, despite the efforts of some who'd like to absolve Joseph of initiating the practice.

[msurkan]

Chip cited the one and only edition of the Nauvoo Expositor. William Law and and other former Mormons were behind this paper in which they accused Joseph of practicing Polygamy (I believe they called it 'spiritual wifery') and none of them went West with Brigham Young.

I think that's pretty strong evidence that Polygamy did NOT originate with Brigham Young, despite the efforts of some who'd like to absolve Joseph of initiating the practice.

I agree. This is the most convincing evidence I have seen so far to show that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. That said, I still find the paucity of non Utah sources of information troubling. Even guys like Cowdery didn't mention it. Also, the fact that there are apparently no polygamous descendants of Joseph Smith is also very odd, considering how many wives he had.

Could it be possible that Joseph practiced a form of polygamy that didn't entail consummation of the unions?

[Chip]

Could it be possible that Joseph practiced a form of polygamy that didn't entail consummation of the unions?

From wikipedia, this is what I've also read elsewhere:

In January 1838, some months after the Algers had left Kirtland, Oliver Cowdery—one of the Three Witnesses to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon—wrote his brother concerning his indignation at Smith's relationship with Alger. Cowdery said he had discussed with Smith the "dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger's...in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself."[6] As Richard Bushman has noted, Smith "never denied a relationship with Alger, but insisted it was not adulterous. He wanted it on record that he had never confessed to such a sin."[7] The best statement Smith could obtain from Cowdery was an affirmation that Smith had never acknowledged himself to have been guilty of adultery. "That," wrote Bushman, "was all Joseph wanted: an admission that he had not termed the Alger affair adulterous." In April 1838, Mormon leaders meeting as the Far West High Council excommunicated Cowdery, in part because he had "seemed to insinuate" that Smith was guilty of adultery.[8]

At this point, Alger disappeared from the historical record of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, only to have a number of stories about her relationship with Smith arise during the late nineteenth century. All of these second-hand witnesses, Mormon and non-Mormon, agreed that Smith had married Alger as a plural wife.[7] In his compendium of Joseph Smith's plural marriages, Todd Compton discusses this late nineteenth-century evidence and its differing reliability, concluding that Smith's relationship with Alger, though fleeting, was more than a casual sexual affair and that she was "one of Joseph Smith's earliest plural wives."[9]

Nevertheless, historian Lawrence Foster disputed Compton's assumption, arguing that although "contemporary evidence strongly suggests" that Smith and Alger engaged in sexual relations, the evidence does not indicate that the relationship was "viewed either by Smith himself or by his associates at the time as a 'marriage.'" Foster noted that before Smith's first documented plural marriage to Louisa Beaman in April 1841, Smith's "earlier sexual relationships may have been considered marriages, but we lack convincing contemporary evidence supporting such an interpretation."[10]

After Smith's death, when Alger's brother asked her about her relationship with the Prophet, she replied, "That is all a matter of my own. And I have nothing to communicate."[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Alger

[msurkan]

Cowdery said he had discussed with Smith the "dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger's...

Yes. I mentioned Cowdery's anger over an "affair" with Fanny earlier. But Cowdery doesn't say this was a plural marriage, or that it was part of a teaching of Smith's.

[Chip]

I think that we, being Mormons, are slow to figure what most other people would deduce right away regarding the whole Joseph Smith / polygamy conundrum:

When men have power and adulation, circumstances are very conducive for them to indulge in things like adultery.

What powerful/adored men in history have not fallen into this sort of thing? When the right atmosphere exists, it almost always happens.

[Chip]

Cowdery said he had discussed with Smith the "dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger's...

Yes. I mentioned Cowdery's anger over an "affair" with Fanny earlier. But Cowdery doesn't say this was a plural marriage, or that it was part of a teaching of Smith's.

Cowdery was shocked by what he saw. I bet if Joseph would have explained it away as a 'marriage', Cowdery would have been even more blown away. I wonder if the rationale of plural marriage was developed later to lend propriety to what had become a pattern of adulterous behavior. It seems Emma sure didn't appreciate any of it.

[msurkan]

It seems Emma sure didn't appreciate any of it.

Now THAT is an understatement. Whatever it was (an "affair" a polygamous marriage, or whatever) there can be no doubt Emma wasn't with the program.

[AI2.0]

I agree. This is the most convincing evidence I have seen so far to show that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. That said, I still find the paucity of non Utah sources of information troubling. Even guys like Cowdery didn't mention it. Also, the fact that there are apparently no polygamous descendants of Joseph Smith is also very odd, considering how many wives he had.

Oliver Cowdery died I think around 1848(?) so he wasn't around as long as some of the others and the church's practice of polygamy was not made public or openly practiced I think until about 1853, which might explain why we don't have a record of him discussing it.

could it be possible that Joseph practiced a form of polygamy that didn't entail consummation of the unions?

Yes, he could have and since he also encouraged temple sealings in which men were 'adopted' to other men then I think their understanding of the purpose for sealings was limited. My own opinion is unresolved on this since I recall when she was asked about it (I think during the temple lot suit), one of his plural wives intimated that the marriage had involved sexual intimacy (sorry I don't remember the particulars.)

[ithink]

Does anyone know if there are any descendants of Joseph Smith who had mothers other than Emma? Joseph had so many wives it would seem that there should be at least some resulting offspring.

The only thing I could find on this subject was some articles from several years back stating that someone was planning on doing some DNA testing of the wives' descendants. I don't know what the results of these tests were. This should be pretty easy to prove (or disprove) conclusively.

It would really raise a lot of questions if none of Joseph's polygamist offspring could be found.

I have answers for this but I have no time to post them now.

I don't have time to rehash what I have researched on this topic and put it on this forum. But I have read this thread and there isn't a question posed that I don't cover.

There are two chapters from my upcoming book that you can take or leave, at my blog, which addresses all these questions. Comments are welcome:

http://burntchild.blogspot.ca/p/chapter-27.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://burntchild.blogspot.ca/p/polyand ... n-sun.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[iamse7en]

There are two very good cases of Joseph's polygamous offspring. Unfortunately, neither can be tested via dna with modern technology.

Josephine Lyon

Two good, perhaps three independent sources. We have the 1915 affidavit in which she said her mother told her she was Joseph's daughter on her deathbed. We also have someone mentioning Josephine as a daughter of Joseph's 30 before that (and importantly, completely independent of this affidavit). We also have a third source, and it also may be independent of the others. Angus Cannon mentions in 1905 Josephine as Joseph's daughter to JS III, 10 years before the affidavit.

Went to Spanish Fork . . . Evening had a talk with Father Hales, who told me that it was said that Joseph Smith had a daughter named Josephine living in Bountiful, Utah . . . . Soon the contemporaries of the Prophet Joseph will be all gone. (George H. Brimhall, “Diary of George H. Brimhall,” Vol. 1, January 1, 1888. The most likely identity of “Father Hales” is Charles Henry Hales (1817–89). Josephine Lyon married John Fisher on August 15, 1863. The Hales and Fisher families both emigrated from Kent, England, and may have known each other in Great Britain)

Before we parted . . . I said, “Joseph, you have asked where is the issue in evidence of your father’s having married plural wives.” I will now refer you to one case where it was said by the girl’s grandmother that your father has a daughter born of a plural wife. The girl’s grandmother was Mother [Patty] Sessions, who lived in Nauvoo and died here in the valley. She was the grand-daughter of Mother Sessions. That girl, I believe, is living today in Bountiful, north of this city. (Angus Munn Cannon, “Statement of an Interview with Joseph Smith III, 1905, Regarding Conversation on October 12, 1905.”)

Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days on earth were about numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the Prophet at the time that her husband Mr. Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church. She also told me that she was sealed to the Prophet about the same time that Zina D. Huntington and Eliza R. Snow were thus sealed. In conclusion mother told me not to make her statement to me too public, as it might cause trouble and arouse unpleasant curiosity. I have followed her advice, and I am relating the facts to-day practically the first time, responding to the request or desire of one of the assistant Church Historians. (Josephine R. Fisher, Affidavit, February 24, 1915)

There is also a good Nauvoo Timeline (e.g. potential/plausible conception of mother and father when both were sealed and in town), and even more significant is her name, "Josephine." Many also believe there is a strong resemblance upon comparing pictures/paintings of the two.

Many love to say DNA evidence has conclusively rejected any potential children of Joseph's polygamous relationships. They importantly leave out the fact that Josephine's paternity cannot be determined using today's technology. Ugo Perego: "The case of Josephine is interesting in that it is possibly the strongest case of an alleged biological child born of Joseph Smith through a polygamous union, but the well-developed sciences of Ycs and mtDNA testing cannot address their relationship at all." This is because she is a woman, and she did not inherit the male-characteristic Ycs from her father and her mtDNA is not applicable in this situation as the mother's identity is not in question.

Olive Frost baby

Another strong case is Olive Frost's baby that died in childbirth, which obviously cannot also be dna-tested.

Olive Frost had a child by him [Joseph Smith] and . . . both died. (Joseph E. Robinson, Diary, October 26, 1902, MS 7866; On April 20, 1885, Joseph Smith III interviewed James Whitehead, a former clerk for Joseph Smith, who affirmed the information. (Joseph E. Robinson, Notes, n.d., original in possession of John Hajicek))

To see a table of all the potential children people have suggested, see this.

Joseph encouraged (and even commanded according to some) that his Nauvoo polygamists raise children by their plural wives. Several did so. D&C 132 mixed in with Joseph's commands to other Nauvoo polygamists, it is certainly plausible that Joseph had children by these wives. Given the above evidence, I'd say it's very likely we know two of them.

I know he [Joseph Smith] had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I knew he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names. (Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, “Remarks at Brigham Young University, April 14, 1905,” 5. Mary Ann Barzee Boice stated in her “History,” that “some” of Joseph Smith’s plural wives “had children.” See also J. D. Stead, Doctrines and Dogmas of Brighamism Exposed, 218)

Be wary of several on this forum that believe in completely implausible conspiracy theories regarding Joseph's "non" polygamy and ignore any evidence that prove their notions wrong. They would rather believe lies because it's easier than accepting their beloved prophet was a polygamist as many of the great patriarchs of old were.