Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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Chip
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

Post by Chip »

ithink wrote:... I don't have time to rehash what I have researched on this topic and put it on this forum. But I have read this thread and there isn't a question posed that I don't cover.

There are two chapters from my upcoming book that you can take or leave, at my blog, which addresses all these questions. Comments are welcome:

http://burntchild.blogspot.ca/p/chapter-27.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://burntchild.blogspot.ca/p/polyand ... n-sun.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think you outlined and filled in the essential matter there pretty succinctly.

It's really something to ponder the strain this whole matter has injected into the church and what an ongoing impediment it poses to missionary work. It never goes away. If the church were to disavow polygamy, once and for all, it would open a Pandora's box as to what was real about The Restoration and what wasn't. This certainly brings into question sections of The D&C. Would the Lord's one true church be hamstrung by such an ongoingly contentious matter as this? Certainly, there are blessings at work within the church. Could this just be something attendant to any group of unified Christians seeking righteousness? It's a vexation!

I wonder how many members in my ward who are mature in the gospel have come to some private understanding of what it all means, but they don't talk about it, because they want to avoid contention. I suspect there are a few.

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ithink
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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Chip wrote:
I think you outlined and filled in the essential matter there pretty succinctly.

It's really something to ponder the strain this whole matter has injected into the church and what an ongoing impediment it poses to missionary work. It never goes away. If the church were to disavow polygamy, once and for all, it would open a Pandora's box as to what was real about The Restoration and what wasn't. This certainly brings into question sections of The D&C. Would the Lord's one true church be hamstrung by such an ongoingly contentious matter as this? Certainly, there are blessings at work within the church. Could this just be something attendant to any group of unified Christians seeking righteousness? It's a vexation!

I wonder how many members in my ward who are mature in the gospel have come to some private understanding of what it all means, but they don't talk about it, because they want to avoid contention. I suspect there are a few.
Thx, and I did it to settle things out in my mind. It's just one piece of the puzzle.

You use the term "Restoration". Another piece of the puzzle is to investigate why we call this a restoration, when the scripture originally read "reformation".

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ithink
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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sen6b wrote:while on family search once I was looking under Joseph Smith to see how many wives he had. And on there it didn't list any offspring, however under one of the wives had a child with someone else, and this child as an adult had something on paper showing that her and her mother had been sealed to him. it didn't show what it was, but on family search it had a letter the woman had received from the first presidency at the time thanking her for sending in whatever it was that she had. I'll see if I can find it.
My is going towards the argument that he never practiced polygamy. And I know it was practiced before they came to Utah. My own family line is proof off that.
There is no doubt he practiced it. Just read my links, and pay close attention to the situation surrounding Joseph-ine Rosetta Lyon. I don't think her first name is a mistake: nor is her middle. Understand her, and everything else begins to fall into place.

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msurkan
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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ithink wrote:There is no doubt he practiced it. Just read my links, and pay close attention to the situation surrounding Joseph-ine Rosetta Lyon.
You do make a pretty strong case Joseph practiced polygamy. However, there is still some lingering doubt in my mind. I would dearly love to finally have some DNA evidence to conclusively prove it. I understand this may never be possible, which is a pity.

The lack of DNA evidence is not an insignificant issue. At the very least it would appear that Joseph wasn't particularly libidinous despite his numerous wives. If he had been doing his husbandly duties on a regular basis one would think there would be more than just the handful of polygamous offspring people are attributing to him.

It's just very strange...

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Leejae
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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If any of us had the faith, I believe we could have a chat with Joseph. Or, when one of us obtains the faith necessary to chat with the Lord, maybe then we'll be able to put it to rest for ourselves. I'm sure some have had this experience. The problem with that is, they are then left to cherry-pick sources that state the truth to back up their testimonies, and are THEN left with being accused of ignoring other evidence.

Why do we obsess about evidence when we profess to be a people who can obtain revelation? Honest question here. We are still damning ourselves with our need for man's standard of proof.

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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msurkan wrote:@Ezra - Thank you SO much for such an in depth discussion of this subject. It is intensely fascinating.

One thing I note in your comments, however, is that it seems like most of the evidence for Joseph's polygamy come from people who went to Utah with Brigham. What non Utah sources are there? For example, did Sidney Rigdon say that Joseph practiced polygamy? I was under the impression that Oliver Coudery never spoke about it (although he did think Joseph was having an affair with Fanny Alger his statements never mentioned that there had been a marriage).

What seems confusing is that there were many church leaders in Nauvoo who didn't know anything about the teachings of polygamy while others did. Why wouldn't all the top church leaders (council of 50, etc) have known about the revelation?
There are lots of non-Utah sources for Joseph's practice of polygamy. Several of the "apostate" apostles that left the church altogether confirm it. If you're really interested in this topic you should consider reading a couple books that cover the evidence for each sides argument.

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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msurkan wrote:
ithink wrote:There is no doubt he practiced it. Just read my links, and pay close attention to the situation surrounding Joseph-ine Rosetta Lyon.
You do make a pretty strong case Joseph practiced polygamy. However, there is still some lingering doubt in my mind. I would dearly love to finally have some DNA evidence to conclusively prove it. I understand this may never be possible, which is a pity.

The lack of DNA evidence is not an insignificant issue. At the very least it would appear that Joseph wasn't particularly libidinous despite his numerous wives. If he had been doing his husbandly duties on a regular basis one would think there would be more than just the handful of polygamous offspring people are attributing to him.

It's just very strange...
Brian Hales makes the claim in his book that Joseph wasn't consummating these polygamous marriages. Which would explain the possible lack of offspring. I personally don't buy that, but I put it forward for consideration.

RE: DNA testing specifically, you might be interested in a talk/paper by Ugo Perego on Joseph Smith and DNA. He discusses both the strengths and the weaknesses of DNA research.

http://www.josephsmithdna.com/uploads/4 ... online.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Chip
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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Leejae wrote:If any of us had the faith, I believe we could have a chat with Joseph. Or, when one of us obtains the faith necessary to chat with the Lord, maybe then we'll be able to put it to rest for ourselves. I'm sure some have had this experience. The problem with that is, they are then left to cherry-pick sources that state the truth to back up their testimonies, and are THEN left with being accused of ignoring other evidence.

Why do we obsess about evidence when we profess to be a people who can obtain revelation? Honest question here. We are still damning ourselves with our need for man's standard of proof.

I think we get pretty tripped up when we see the evidence of the natural man engaging in adultery, which is canonized in our scriptures as God-directed plural marriage, and more-or-less avoided by the General Authorities today because, seemingly, it's all an unanswerable mess. I think the only appeal left to understand it is to study the facts available, weigh it all out, and let the inspiration come, with a background of prayerful request to gain understanding. My current understanding is that God does his works among men, and men soon pollute them. None of us would probably do any better. Even so, there is no other institution to compare to the church today when it comes to teaching its members how to live righteous lives. This must be of God, along with the Book of Mormon.

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Desert Roses
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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Chip wrote: It's really something to ponder the strain this whole matter has injected into the church and what an ongoing impediment it poses to missionary work. It never goes away. If the church were to disavow polygamy, once and for all, it would open a Pandora's box as to what was real about The Restoration and what wasn't. This certainly brings into question sections of The D&C. Would the Lord's one true church be hamstrung by such an ongoingly contentious matter as this? Certainly, there are blessings at work within the church. Could this just be something attendant to any group of unified Christians seeking righteousness? It's a vexation!

I wonder how many members in my ward who are mature in the gospel have come to some private understanding of what it all means, but they don't talk about it, because they want to avoid contention. I suspect there are a few.
Has anyone read Orson Scott Card's book, Saints? I realize it is fiction, but it portrays events in Nauvoo regarding polygamy as they may have been, and reflects what might have been the attitude of the people involved in a way that makes a lot of sense to me. I felt it was the first time I had a real sense of empathy for the reasons women would have agreed to go along with this, and the reasons men would have accepted Joseph's word on it.

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iamse7en
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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Hyrcanus wrote: Brian Hales makes the claim in his book that Joseph wasn't consummating these polygamous marriages. Which would explain the possible lack of offspring. I personally don't buy that, but I put it forward for consideration.
I think you are greatly misunderstanding Hales' position. He continually admits and cites evidence of consummation of the marriages. He has an entire appendix (E) dedicated to the 13 wives he believes there is strong evidence of sexual relations. He also believes the two children I cited above as Joseph's polygamous children. Perhaps you mean he makes the claim in his book that he wasn't consummating these polyandrous marriages, but he says that with great nuances.

What his position is is that there is no evidence of sexual polyandry. That would mean, a wife was not having sexual relations with their first husband and with Joseph at the same time. He goes through potential timelines with the more complex cases (Sylvia for example) and tries to show that if there were sexual relations, the husband was either no longer with the wife at that time or was a front husband. Hales' claim is what triggered Quinn's detailed response on Joseph's sexuality, both in polygamous and polyandrous marriages. Quinn vehemently disagrees with Hales' claim.

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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iamse7en wrote:
Hyrcanus wrote: Brian Hales makes the claim in his book that Joseph wasn't consummating these polygamous marriages. Which would explain the possible lack of offspring. I personally don't buy that, but I put it forward for consideration.
I think you are greatly misunderstanding Hales' position. He continually admits and cites evidence of consummation of the marriages. He has an entire appendix (E) dedicated to the 13 wives he believes there is strong evidence of sexual relations. He also believes the two children I cited above as Joseph's polygamous children. Perhaps you mean he makes the claim in his book that he wasn't consummating these polyandrous marriages, but he says that with great nuances.

What his position is is that there is no evidence of sexual polyandry. That would mean, a wife was not having sexual relations with their first husband and with Joseph at the same time. He goes through potential timelines with the more complex cases (Sylvia for example) and tries to show that if there were sexual relations, the husband was either no longer with the wife at that time or was a front husband. Hales' claim is what triggered Quinn's detailed response on Joseph's sexuality, both in polygamous and polyandrous marriages. Quinn vehemently disagrees with Hales' claim.
You're absolutely right, I've definitely remembered wrong then. One of the books I read a few years ago claimed polygamy occurred but didn't involve sexual relations.

My mistake and apologies for the misinformation. All of the various polygamy tomes blend together for me. I should have known better than to make a claim from memory without double checking it. Thanks for the correction.

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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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AI2.0 wrote:Over the years some people have claimed to be descendents of Joseph Smith. As DNA testing has improved these claims have been tested. So far all of these claims have been proven wrong through DNA testing done by Ugo Perego.

I suspect that some polygamous wives claimed their children were Joseph's because of the laws of adoption of the Temple sealings as they understood them.

The only known descendents of Joseph Smith are those children borne to him and his wife, Emma Smith.
Correct; including even Fanny Alger's descendants.

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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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The best revelation comes from God. Joseph Smith was the Lord's prophet. He doesn't work through those that lie. He doesn't work through those that commit adultery. I trust Joseph and Emma. I do not believe they are liars. Joseph Smith's biggest "weaknesses" were his willingness to trust those with wicked intentions and then to easily and readily forgive. He had no part in secret marriages. He did not practice polygamy. If so, D&C section 101 of the 1835 edition makes no sense and the subsequent leaders were wise to remove it. Go ahead, look it up. It is an easy google. Why did they remove it? There were many changes made to the revelations received by Joseph Smith from HF. Who is doing the dismantling? How inspired is that?

Brigham Young was 12th in line. Many who were "in line" as head of the twelve disappeared or were killed or poisoned. Makes you think.

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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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worthit wrote:The best revelation comes from God. Joseph Smith was the Lord's prophet. He doesn't work through those that lie. He doesn't work through those that commit adultery. I trust Joseph and Emma. I do not believe they are liars. Joseph Smith's biggest "weaknesses" were his willingness to trust those with wicked intentions and then to easily and readily forgive. He had no part in secret marriages. He did not practice polygamy. If so, D&C section 101 of the 1835 edition makes no sense and the subsequent leaders were wise to remove it. Go ahead, look it up. It is an easy google. Why did they remove it? There were many changes made to the revelations received by Joseph Smith from HF. Who is doing the dismantling? How inspired is that?

Brigham Young was 12th in line. Many who were "in line" as head of the twelve disappeared or were killed or poisoned. Makes you think.
It makes me think about how I should remain faithful to God and the prophet(s), unlike many ahead of him...

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ithink
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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JohnnyL wrote:It makes me think about how I should remain faithful to God and the prophet(s)...
You better make up your mind which one you want to be faithful to, you can't be loyal to them all.

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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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ithink wrote:
JohnnyL wrote:It makes me think about how I should remain faithful to God and the prophet(s)...
You better make up your mind which one you want to be faithful to, you can't be loyal to them all.
Oh but I can, it's not that hard, really. :ymhug:

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ithink
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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JohnnyL wrote:
ithink wrote:
JohnnyL wrote:It makes me think about how I should remain faithful to God and the prophet(s)...
You better make up your mind which one you want to be faithful to, you can't be loyal to them all.
Oh but I can, it's not that hard, really. :ymhug:
What does that mean?

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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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The gyrations that we all go through to sanitize the unsavory practice of polygamy fill me with sadness.

I love the church. I'm proud of it. I'm ashamed of polygamy. It simply isn't in harmony with the teachings of the Savior on any level. The only conclusion I can legitimately come to is that it can only be a huge mistake that Joseph Smith made -- mistaking lust & temptation for revelation in other words -- and I wish we could all just face that and move on.

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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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KMCopeland wrote:The gyrations that we all go through to sanitize the unsavory practice of polygamy fill me with sadness.

I love the church. I'm proud of it. I'm ashamed of polygamy. It simply isn't in harmony with the teachings of the Savior on any level. The only conclusion I can legitimately come to is that it can only be a huge mistake that Joseph Smith made -- mistaking lust & temptation for revelation in other words -- and I wish we could all just face that and move on.
Thanks for the facts, but I prefer my opinions... ;)

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KMCopeland wrote:The gyrations that we all go through to sanitize the unsavory practice of polygamy fill me with sadness.

I love the church. I'm proud of it. I'm ashamed of polygamy. It simply isn't in harmony with the teachings of the Savior on any level. The only conclusion I can legitimately come to is that it can only be a huge mistake that Joseph Smith made -- mistaking lust & temptation for revelation in other words -- and I wish we could all just face that and move on.
You may feel ashamed by the practice of polygamy, but apparently God feels differently. Before you sweepingly condemn the practice, I remind you that God's chosen people, the children of Israel, were created by that 'unsavory' practice. Jacob, aka 'Israel' had children by four women. Abraham, had sons by two women, each of home became the fathers of great nations. Our faith would teach us that these men and women were foreordained to be the mothers and fathers of descendants born from this practice. Since we do not know the will of God in all things, we ought to acknowledge it as we form our perceptions.

While I am well aware of the problems associated with trying to live this principle, however, I WILL NOT forget the fact that my polygamous ancestors had faith and even a witness that they were doing what God wanted them to do. I honor their sacrifice and admire their ability to trust and have faith and do their best to love and serve God at such a cost.

We are on sandy foundation when we condemn polygamy outright since the Book of Mormon makes it clear that God uses the practice of polygamy to further his work. Polygamy is acceptable when he commands it, to raise up a righteous seed and when it is his will the Prophet of the church will direct it, otherwise, it should not be practiced--and it will be temporary.

As long as we do not know all the facts, I think we should be careful about judging others too harshly.

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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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The Fanny Alger incident is interesting.

1. Joseph Smith enters into a symbolic sealing with Fanny Alger with the consent and full knowledge and blessing of Emma Smith.

2. Fanny Alger turns up pregnant.

3. Oliver Cowdery accuses Joseph Smith of adultery and spreads gossip and false rumors turning Emma Smith against Joseph.

4. Joseph and Levi Hancock protect Fanny Alger and get her out of town.

5. Joseph never throws Fanny Alger under the bus but simply maintains that he never committed adultery.

6. Hancock family stay strong in the LDS Church.

7. Fanny Alger leaves the LDS Church and refuses to reveal details about the incident. "That is all a matter of my own. And I have nothing to communicate".

8. DNA studies done on descendants of Orison Smith prove "Joseph Smith-----you are NOT the father".

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iamse7en
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Allegedly pregnant. Late and second-hand source. No record she had a child, but who knows. The very best article to read on the Fanny Alger case is by Don Bradley. Fascinating and complex web of events.

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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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:-?
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pjbrownie
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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Ezra, Wilford Woodruff and John Taylor DID make false revelations. That's undisputed. They said the Lord would never permit polygamy be taken from the earth. Then it did and Woodruff made the famous statement about the Lord not allowing the prophet to lead the church astray. If two prophets could have false revelations on polygamy, so could other members living the principle and giving affadavits to the point. They were under siege by the Federal government. They would say almost anything. Remember, if Joseph COULD lie about polygamy in the first instance, they could lie about it in the second. The precedent is set. We know the contortions the Church went through to stamp out polygamy. They would lie and say "wink, wink" we're not doing it anymore. They had the let go of Matthias Cowley and John W. Taylor who kept performing marriages into the 1920's because of the wink, wink policy. It was a wink, wink to get it in, and wink, wink to get it out. Feel like a false idea to me that the Lord worked hard to get rid of. There is no way I can't believe they made twisted attributes to Joseph Smith, under command of Brigham Young to justify the principle.

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Chip
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Re: Polygamist descendants of Joseph Smith?

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pjbrownie wrote:Ezra, Wilford Woodruff and John Taylor DID make false revelations. That's undisputed. They said the Lord would never permit polygamy be taken from the earth. Then it did and Woodruff made the famous statement about the Lord not allowing the prophet to lead the church astray. If two prophets could have false revelations on polygamy, so could other members living the principle and giving affadavits to the point. They were under siege by the Federal government. They would say almost anything. Remember, if Joseph COULD lie about polygamy in the first instance, they could lie about it in the second. The precedent is set. We know the contortions the Church went through to stamp out polygamy. They would lie and say "wink, wink" we're not doing it anymore. They had the let go of Matthias Cowley and John W. Taylor who kept performing marriages into the 1920's because of the wink, wink policy. It was a wink, wink to get it in, and wink, wink to get it out. Feel like a false idea to me that the Lord worked hard to get rid of. There is no way I can't believe they made twisted attributes to Joseph Smith, under command of Brigham Young to justify the principle.

I've been reading the book "Lost Apostles: Forgotten Members of Mormonism's Original Quorum of the Twelve" by Shepard and Marquardt. It is fascinating! As the church developed into a landed/political juggernaut, tons of intrigues came about. It seems that Joseph was engaging in a lot of unrighteous dominion before the polygamy thing ever came up - polygamy just looks symptomatic of the overall trend.

I think it was David Whitmer who always maintained that the Book of Mormon was for real and Joseph Smith started out as a great man, full of the Holy Ghost, but things headed south. It was our Constitution, ironically, that put some external limits on the local madness. The book cites tons of letters, legal records, and journal entries, so I think it paints a credible, overall picture. It's something to remember that Moroni told Joseph that his name would be had for both good and evil.

Some of these original Twelve who were ex'd were quite principled men. They had given up just about everything to 'follow the prophet', but they reached their own points where they could no longer abide the situation. Some of the Twelve were getting ex'd and reinstated on quite a regular basis. It was a wild time in church history. It was kind of like a Silicon Valley startup that had wild success, thrashed all over the place, had all sorts of competing personalities, but eventually, as the HR department, accounting, and legal filled in, the situation became more steadied and normalized. It seems that after Brigham young officially established polygamy for the leadership, things settled way down. I think that by making them all partakers, the dissenting voices were neutralized.

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