3 Nephi 16:10

[Thomas]

Within the church are two groups. The wheat and the tares. The repentant Gentiles will be numbered among the Laminate remnant. How can you repent if you think you are incapable of sin?

Who thinks that they are incapable of sin?

I guess those who refuse to see the Book of Mormon warnings are calling the LDS to repentance.

[Ezra]

Public school

3 Nephi 27:11
But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.


2 nephi 26 20 And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled, because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor.
2 nephi 26 29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

They seek not the welfare of Zion. They put down the miracles of god and teach there own wisdom and own learnings. God is not in there teachings. They are paid and the grind upon the poor. Ie taxation.
Public school teachers.

H Verlan Andersen The Book of Mormon and the Constitution p.190
After comparing Satan’s cunning plan of free education today with the plan of enforced priestcraft described so often in the Book of Mormon, can it be doubted but that the Lord has placed those many stories in there to warn us against a danger we have succumbed to? Both plans provide for government control of education. Both plans force taxpayers to pay the cost of implementing them. Both prohibit the teaching of the gospels.

H Verlan Andersen The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil p. 148
Using the force of government, the devil compels all parents to send their children to his church for training. There he permits nothing to be taught except the precepts of men and the wisdom of the world. His doctrines of organic evolution, atheism, materialism, and socialism are thus forced upon all children. No one is permitted to teach in his church until they have first been to college and there been indoctrinated with his philosophies. By reason of this learning and their own vainness, frailty, and foolishness, they tend to become proud of their degrees and status, and consequently refuse to hearken unto the counsel of God, or to be guided by the Holy Ghost. (2 N 9:28) ….parents are compelled by the devils’ church to finance with their tax money the corruption of their own
If evolution, atheism, materialism, socialism, and similar philosophies of men which are being taught by the public schools today are not the doctrines of Satan, one will find it difficult to find a set of teachings better calculated to serve his purposes, and if socialized education is not his “cunning plan”, to spread these false teachings, one will also find it difficult to design a plan which does the job more effectively and completely…if this is his plan, he “deceiveth the whole world”. (Revelations 12:9) …because there are few who regard socialized education as such. In fact, socialized education has become so universally accepted that the suggestion that it promotes the plan of the evil one may shock some. Teachers especially who have spent so many years and so much of their means obtaining credentials for employment

[Ezra]

So public school is priestcraft and almost all members have been schooled there or are schooling there kids there. Most members will call public school good and say it's of god. Even when many time our prophets have said that god is not in it.
Joseph Fielding Smith CR 10/1915:4
I hope that I may be pardoned for giving expression to my real conviction with reference to the question of education in the State of Utah. The government of the State has provided for the common schools up to the eighth grade, and meets the general expenses of these schools…In addition to these, we are having forced upon the people high schools throughout every part of the land. I believe we are running education mad. I believe that we are taxing the people more for education than they should be taxed. This is my sentiment. And especially is it my sentiment when the fact is known that all these burdens are placed upon the tax payers of the state to teach the learning or education of this world. God is not in it. Religion is excluded from it. The Bible is excluded from it. And those who desire to have their children receive the advantages of moral and religious education are excluded from all these state organizations, and if we will have our children properly taught in principles of righteousness, morality and religion, we have to establish Church schools or institutions of education of our own, and thus the burdens of taxation are increased upon the people. We have to do it in order that our children may have the advantages of moral training in their youth. I know that I shall be criticized by professional ‘lovers of education,’ for expressing my idea in relation to this matter.
When doing this specially in church they are condemning themselves.
D&c 112
23 Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.

24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

Blasphemy is defined in the gold standard websters dictionary at the time of JS as attributing something to god that god has nothing to do with. Many members today do this. I can see a few ways in which the members have turned away from the fullness of the gospel.

[Gideon]

Within the church are two groups. The wheat and the tares. The repentant Gentiles will be numbered among the Laminate remnant. How can you repent if you think you are incapable of sin?

Who thinks that they are incapable of sin?

I guess those who refuse to see the Book of Mormon warnings are calling the LDS to repentance.

The Book of Mormon calls all people to repentance:

I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
(3 Nephi 11:32)

The warnings referred to in 3 Nephi 16:10 and Mormon 8 do not refer to the LDS church. You need to read them in context. In Mormon 8 he is referring to the day when the Book of Mormon comes forth, and yes, he is chastising those who apostatized from the original NT church, the holy church of God. In 3 Nephi 16:10 he is referring to those who scattered his people, the descendants of Lehi, the American Indians. The Latter-day Saints were not part of either group.

The intent seems to be to characterize the LDS church as apostate so that all of the leaders and ordinances and commandments can be ignored.

However, the LDS church IS Christ's church, with all of its flaws and flawed leaders.

[BMC]

=;

The Book of Mormon calls all people to repentance:

I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
(3 Nephi 11:32)

The warnings referred to in 3 Nephi 16:10 and Mormon 8 do not refer to the LDS church. You need to read them in context. In Mormon 8 he is referring to the day when the Book of Mormon comes forth, and yes, he is chastising those who apostatized from the original NT church, the holy church of God. In 3 Nephi 16:10 he is referring to those who scattered his people, the descendants of Lehi, the American Indians. The Latter-day Saints were not part of either group.

The intent seems to be to characterize the LDS church as apostate so that all of the leaders and ordinances and commandments can be ignored.

However, the LDS church IS Christ's church, with all of its flaws and flawed leaders.

And what is Christ's warning to the Gentiles regarding the gospel if they don't repent? What happens to the gospel?


How can a Gentile sin against the gospel, having not made covenants or reject the fullness while not under any covenants to receive the fulness?

How can the Gentiles today who are not under covenant reject the fulness and sin against the gospel, like the Israelites who were under covenant and rejected the fulness, how are these even the same?


Would it require a person or group or people to be under covenant before they can sin against the gospel and reject the fulness? Or can anyone sin against the gospel rejecting the fulness having never received the gospel or made covenants to receive the fulness?

If you are unable or unwilling to answer that's fine. I also pose these questions to anyone else who likewise believes the Gentiles in the Book of Mormon are NOT the ones under covenant but only those who have never made any covenants, or received the gospel etc... Please answer these questions and explain how a person or group of people not under covenant can sin against that which they have NOT covenanted to obey?


(The only realization here is The Lord is speaking to the Gentiles who HAVE entered into covenants with Him who then REJECT the gospel, even the fulness. And what happens to the gospel?... Simple, it GOES back to the remnant of the house of Jacob which was by covenant from The Lord to Nephi, and would by the hand of the "Gentile" who would bring forth the Book of Mormon in these latter days. D&C 124 The Lord declares there is NO place found on the earth to restore the fulness, even that which had been LOST or in other words REJECTED having received an invitation and made covenants to receive and did NOT, sinning against the gospel while under covenant.)

[Gideon]

=
And what is Christ's warning to the Gentiles regarding the gospel if they don't repent? What happens to the gospel?


How can a Gentile sin against the gospel, having not made covenants or reject the fullness while not under any covenants to receive the fulness?

How can the Gentiles today who are not under covenant reject the fulness and sin against the gospel, like the Israelites who were under covenant and rejected the fulness, how are these even the same?


Would it require a person or group or people to be under covenant before they can sin against the gospel and reject the fulness? Or can anyone sin against the gospel rejecting the fulness having never received the gospel or made covenants to receive the fulness?

If you are unable or unwilling to answer that's fine. I also pose these questions to anyone else who likewise believes the Gentiles in the Book of Mormon are NOT the ones under covenant but only those who have never made any covenants, or received the gospel etc... Please answer these questions and explain how a person or group of people not under covenant can sin against that which they have NOT covenanted to obey?


(The only realization here is The Lord is speaking to the Gentiles who HAVE entered into covenants with Him who then REJECT the gospel, even the fulness. And what happens to the gospel?... Simple, it GOES back to the remnant of the house of Jacob which was by covenant from The Lord to Nephi, and would by the hand of the "Gentile" who would bring forth the Book of Mormon in these latter days. D&C 124 The Lord declares there is NO place found on the earth to restore the fulness, even that which had been LOST or in other words REJECTED having received an invitation and made covenants to receive and did NOT, sinning against the gospel while under covenant.)

BMC, I follow your reasoning, but I think that if you had kept the context in mind that you would have reached a different conclusion.

Anyway, it seems that our views are different on four points:

1. The Fulness of the Gospel. According to Moroni, this is contained in the Book of Mormon:

He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
(Joseph Smith—History 1:34)

Anyone can reject the Book of Mormon without being under covenant.

2. Sining against the Gospel. This one is a little harder to pin down, but after reading many verses in the OT with the phrase "sin against", I believe that in this case it could mean to deliberately break the commandments after having had the Gospel preached to them. I like this verse:

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
(Psalms 119:11)

Killing a prophet might also qualify.

3. That which was lost was lost long before Joseph Smith, and could have been restored in any of the temples built after the saints arrived in Utah.

4. What happens to the Gospel? It is withdrawn from the the Gentiles referred to in 3 Nephi 16:10 (the USA). It is then preached by the believing Gentiles (faithful members of the LDS church), to the House of Israel. The LDS church does not disappear. It is not destroyed. It is not judged by Zion.

[BMC]

=
And what is Christ's warning to the Gentiles regarding the gospel if they don't repent? What happens to the gospel?


How can a Gentile sin against the gospel, having not made covenants or reject the fullness while not under any covenants to receive the fulness?

How can the Gentiles today who are not under covenant reject the fulness and sin against the gospel, like the Israelites who were under covenant and rejected the fulness, how are these even the same?


Would it require a person or group or people to be under covenant before they can sin against the gospel and reject the fulness? Or can anyone sin against the gospel rejecting the fulness having never received the gospel or made covenants to receive the fulness?

If you are unable or unwilling to answer that's fine. I also pose these questions to anyone else who likewise believes the Gentiles in the Book of Mormon are NOT the ones under covenant but only those who have never made any covenants, or received the gospel etc... Please answer these questions and explain how a person or group of people not under covenant can sin against that which they have NOT covenanted to obey?


(The only realization here is The Lord is speaking to the Gentiles who HAVE entered into covenants with Him who then REJECT the gospel, even the fulness. And what happens to the gospel?... Simple, it GOES back to the remnant of the house of Jacob which was by covenant from The Lord to Nephi, and would by the hand of the "Gentile" who would bring forth the Book of Mormon in these latter days. D&C 124 The Lord declares there is NO place found on the earth to restore the fulness, even that which had been LOST or in other words REJECTED having received an invitation and made covenants to receive and did NOT, sinning against the gospel while under covenant.)

BMC, I follow your reasoning, but I think that if you had kept the context in mind that you would have reached a different conclusion.

Anyway, it seems that our views are different on four points:

1. The Fulness of the Gospel. According to Moroni, this is contained in the Book of Mormon:

He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
(Joseph Smith—History 1:34)

Anyone can reject the Book of Mormon without being under covenant.

Yep they can, but only a people who are under covenant can reject the fullness and sin against the gospel. What did the Israelites reject? Was it the Torah that brought them under condemnation or something far greater?

2. Sining against the Gospel. This one is a little harder to pin down, but after reading many verses in the OT with the phrase "sin against", I believe that in this case it could mean to deliberately break the commandments after having had the Gospel preached to them. I like this verse:

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
(Psalms 119:11)

Killing a prophet might also qualify.

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
D&C 1:15-16


3. That which was lost was lost long before Joseph Smith, and could have been restored in any of the temples built after the saints arrived in Utah.

28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto YOU, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.
D&C 124:28

The Lord is talking to Joseph, says YOU, he doesn't indicate the great apostasy, or the world lost it, at this point at Nauvoo the priesthood was already restored both Aaronic and Melchizedek, the Kirtland temple was lost, it did not have a baptismal font etc.., And Elders Oaks indicated in the last Priesthood Session that only the dispensational keys were restored at Kirtland.


Also its pretty speculative to say it was received later, there is no revelation to say that transpired, we do have revelation that was fulfilled, that if the saints did not finish the Nauvoo temple. And what did The Lord say if they should fail would happen to them, and what did he say if they should finish It? Look at ALL the historical accounts of what followed after the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum, and turn to the History of the Church and read the dedicatory prayer that took place in the attic of the temple and then read what happened to the temple and saints after. Find if you can the revelation similar to the revelation in Kirtland where The Lord accepted the Nauvoo temple. I personally have never found one.

4. What happens to the Gospel? It is withdrawn from the the Gentiles referred to in 3 Nephi 16:10 (the USA). It is then preached by the believing Gentiles (faithful members of the LDS church), to the House of Israel. The LDS church does not disappear. It is not destroyed. It is not judged by Zion
Zion. The LDS church is a preparatory church teaching a preparatory gospel or in others words a telestial church, the church of the First Born is what will come down out of Heaven with Christ.

Gideon, I appreciate your reply and effort to show me your perspective. In 3rd Nephi it indicates it's taken away from the Gentiles and given back to a remnant of the House of Israel which are the Lamanites. We are the Gentile Church, we are mixed with the seed of Israel but not pure bloods, therefore Gentile, the gospel isn't being given back to us but to the Lamanites, if we repent we will be grafted in with them and counted as the pure vine which Jacob also teaches in his allegory on the olive tree. God covenanted with Nephi that the Gentiles would bring the Gospel to them, but the Gentiles rejected it and sinned against the gospel, broke the everlasting covenant and strayed from the ordinances. The whole church fell under condemnation for taking lightly the teachings of the gospel, the Nauvoo temple was never finished but destroyed and The Lord never accepted it, the saints were persecuted and driven from that place just like God had told them they would if they did not finish it. His warnings. And subsequent cursing in consequence of not finishing it were fulfilled and revelatory and well documented in church history of the events after fleeing Nauvoo. God did not fulfill his promise to them that "if"they finished it they would not be driven from that place and he would fight their battles, either God is a liar and didn't keep his promise to the saints or man is lying, and God cursed them exactly as he said he would for failing to finish the temple in the allotted time.

Of course as they were driven from there, scattered etc... He was still merciful and blessed them through their hardships out of mercy as he did with the Israelites as they rejected the offering from The Lord and he blessed them too out of mercy and not because of obedience.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received--

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written--
D&C 84:54-57

Brigham Young

Meeting of the Twelve Apostles in Philadelphia.

He also remarked that if any in the Church had the fullness of the Melchisedec Priesthood, he did not know it. For any person to have the fullness of that priesthood, he must be a king and priest. A person may have a portion of that priesthood, (Brigham Young - H of C, v.5, p. 527)

But alas, I am going to have to go with either the scriptures mean what they say or they do not.

[Gideon]

BMC, I started to reply to the individual items but then I realized that I was losing focus on the real issue. That is that the context of 3 Nephi 16:10 is a nation, not a church. The first thing I would to emphasize is that the Lord pointed out two groups of Gentiles. Whenever we refer to the Gentiles in 3 Nephi we should clarify which group we are discussing.

6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.
7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.
8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;
(3 Nephi 16:6–8)

What is the difference between the believing and the unbelieving Gentiles? The unbelieving Gentiles have come upon this land and scattered the Lord's people. There is more:

9 And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel, verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them—
(3 Nephi 16:9)

The phrase "after all this" is very telling. After all what? After all that they do to the Lord's people as specified in verse 8.
Verse 10 is a continuation of verse 9. The context of verse 10 is the unbelieving Gentiles who scatter and abuse the Lord's people:

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
(3 Nephi 16:10)

The saints don't lift themselves up above all nations, but Americans do. The saints may be slow in some areas, and many may need to be awakened, but they are not "filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations", but America is. The saints haven't rejected the fullness of the gospel, but many Americans have.

I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
(3 Nephi 16:10–11)

Who is going to bring the gospel to the House of Israel? The believing Gentiles. The Latter-day Saints.

I do have a question, why do you feel that it is speculative for me to suggest that the fullness of the priesthood was received in another temple, but it isn't speculative for you to state that it wasn't?

I haven't looked for a revelation stating that the Lord accepted the Nauvoo temple, but I can tell that He has accepted the later temples. Also, I attended the first session of the dedication of the current Nauvoo temple, and I am very confident that the Lord accepted it.

The whole idea that the Lord would permanently punish the saints over the Nauvoo temple doesn't sit right with me. He is a merciful Being. He loves to have mercy on others. He loves the saints. I can't believe that he wouldn't make it possible for the saints to repent, it is totally out of character.

Denver Snuffer made a statement twice in PTHG that needs to be repeated. He said that he didn't have access to the Church Archives while writing his book.

In conclusion: I don't see any way that 3 Nephi 16:10 could be referring to any group other than the people of the USA.

[BMC]

BMC, I started to reply to the individual items but then I realized that I was losing focus on the real issue. That is that the context of 3 Nephi 16:10 is a nation, not a church. The first thing I would to emphasize is that the Lord pointed out two groups of Gentiles. Whenever we refer to the Gentiles in 3 Nephi we should clarify which group we are discussing.

6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.
7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;
(3 Nephi 16:6–8)

We are collectively apart of the Gentiles whether a member of the Church or not. The Book of Mormon came forth from the Gentiles and the Lord doesn't differentiate the Gentile Nation from the Gentile Church or established Church. He simply says in 3 Nephi 21 v.5 that it is the Gentiles who bring forth this work. What work? translation of the B of M, restored the gospel etc... and it was done by the Gentiles as the Lord indicated it would, who are the Gentiles respectively who performed this labor and continues to perform this labor today seeking to bring the gospel to those whom the Lord promised that the Gentiles would. In order that he may fulfill his covenant with the House of Israel, to restore them to a knowledge of God, even His fulness.

3 Nephi 21:4 For it is wisdom in the Father that they should be established in this land, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father, that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel;

5 Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;


What is the difference between the believing and the unbelieving Gentiles? The unbelieving Gentiles have come upon this land and scattered the Lord's people. There is more:

9 And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel, verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them—
(3 Nephi 16:9)

The phrase "after all this" is very telling. After all what? After all that they do to the Lord's people as specified in verse 8.
Verse 10 is a continuation of verse 9. The context of verse 10 is the unbelieving Gentiles who scatter and abuse the Lord's people:

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
(3 Nephi 16:10)

The saints don't lift themselves up above all nations, but Americans do. The saints may be slow in some areas, and many may need to be awakened, but they are not "filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations", but America is. The saints haven't rejected the fullness of the gospel, but many Americans have.

But the Saints do, and the Lord declared they did in the D&C because of their vanity and unbelief etc...
D&C 84: 55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
D&C 101: 6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.
D&C 88:121 Therefore, cease from all your light speeches, from all laughter, from all your lustful desires, from all your pride and light-mindedness, and from all your wicked doings.
D&C 98:19 Behold, I, the Lord, am not well pleased with many who are in the church at Kirtland;
20 For they do not forsake their sins, and their wicked ways, the pride of their hearts, and their covetousness, and all their detestable things, and observe the words of wisdom and eternal life which I have given unto them.
D&C 50:4 Behold, I, the Lord, have looked upon you, and have seen abominations in the church that profess my name.


I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
(3 Nephi 16:10–11)

Who is going to bring the gospel to the House of Israel? The believing Gentiles. The Latter-day Saints.

I do have a question, why do you feel that it is speculative for me to suggest that the fullness of the priesthood was received in another temple, but it isn't speculative for you to state that it wasn't?

Because the Lord appointed a time for them to finish the temple in Nauvoo, and if they did not finish it in the allotted time He would reject them and the church, for a time had been appointed that was sufficient enough to finish it.

D&C 124:31 But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.


D&C 124:46 But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them.
47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the oath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord.
48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practice before me, saith the Lord.

And, yes they had many trials and their work was hindered and the Lord excused them for not being able to obey His first command, to build it in the allotted time. Then He issues them the command again after all that to go finish it now.

D&C 124:51 Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.

D&C 124: 55 And again, verily I say unto you, I command you again to build a house to my name, even in this place, that you may prove yourselves unto me that ye are faithful in all things whatsoever I command you, that I may bless you, and crown you with honor, immortality, and eternal life.

The Nauvoo temple was never finished, there is no revelation establishing the Lord accepted it or kept His promise with the Saints later when other temples were built. It is significant enough that if it were the case that visitation and revelation would not have been kept secret but instead proclaimed.


I haven't looked for a revelation stating that the Lord accepted the Nauvoo temple, but I can tell that He has accepted the later temples. Also, I attended the first session of the dedication of the current Nauvoo temple, and I am very confident that the Lord accepted it.

Maybe he did, I know the Lord is merciful and is preparing a people to finish His work. If you read the Kirtland vision and the Lord acceptance of it, it is marvelous.

The whole idea that the Lord would permanently punish the saints over the Nauvoo temple doesn't sit right with me. He is a merciful Being. He loves to have mercy on others. He loves the saints. I can't believe that he wouldn't make it possible for the saints to repent, it is totally out of character.

The conditions are set forth how and when the Saints can bring themselves out from punishment, it is through repentance.

D&C 84:57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

ETB and Oaks have reaffirmed that we are still under this condemnation today there has been no revelation stating otherwise.

Denver Snuffer made a statement twice in PTHG that needs to be repeated. He said that he didn't have access to the Church Archives while writing his book.

I have been familiar with the above I have shared and other similar stuff on this forum since I was about 15/16 years old through my own diligence and studying, that is going back to early 1990's. I read no other books about the gospel other than the scriptures. I was home schooled from 8th grade on, though I still attended seminary I learned this stuff long ago and most of my studying revolved around the scriptures. All you need is the scriptures and the spirit, you do not need PTHG to see the warnings from the Lord, punishments, blessings and or cursing's. If people just studied the scriptures with an open heart and mind and allowed the spirit to flow, instead having a predetermined idea what is being communicated from the Lord they would see the truth of all things. Even the things that happened as the result of the Nauvoo Temple not being finished. You can read the blessings and promises had they finished their work, those blessings unfulfilled, and the promises of cursing's and punishment if they did not finish it, all fulfilled. However, the Lord didn't abandon the Israelites during Moses time, but they did need to be chastised and punished, we too are and or have been experiencing this as well. Where is the Center Stake of Zion, that all nations shall fear and where the Lord will come down in His power and be among His people? We today can spiritually be that people so the Lord can look upon us and see a people who are prepared to live His laws so that He may redeem Zion and we be counted among His sheep, or we can go off the false traditions of men and be led away.

In conclusion: I don't see any way that 3 Nephi 16:10 could be referring to any group other than the people of the USA.

Gideon, I was reading about you in the Book of Mormon last night! Haha, anyways... I appreciate the back and forth and expounding the scriptures to one another. Towards the beginning of the OP I posted this.... I think focusing on who the Gentiles are while important the bigger message is the gospel is taken away from the gentiles and given to a remnant of the Jews, which are the Lamanites to fulfill that covenant made with Nephi, those who are repentant will be numbered among the House of Israel.

[Gideon]

BMC, I have enjoyed this also. Reading about me in the BoM, now there is a compliment I don't deserve. Actually, I chose the name a long time ago while participating on Yahoo Answers. Someone else used the same name I was using, but with one character uppercase. Since I didn't want to be confused with that person I chose a name from my ancestors. I have an ancestor who fought in the Revolutionary War whose first name was Gideon.

We feel the same way about PTHG, it just isn't necessary. And I share your belief regarding the scriptures: "If people just studied the scriptures with an open heart and mind and allowed the spirit to flow, instead having a predetermined idea what is being communicated from the Lord they would see the truth of all things."

Reading the Book of Mormon changed my heart and my life when I was 17. I fell in love with the scriptures then.

Here is an interesting question, how will the Lord take his gospel from among the gentiles? I used to think that the missionaries would be reassigned, but that wont be enough.