What is apostasy?

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Jake
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What is apostasy?

Post by Jake »

In the wake of Brent's excommunication, I have been pondering a lot on what exactly apostasy is. I was going to discuss all the definitions of apostasy, but for brevity's sake, I will go straight to the church handbook:
LDS church handbook wrote:As used here, apostasy refers to member who:
1, Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.
2. Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
3. Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
4. Formally join another church and advocate its teachings.
items 2, 3, and 4 are pretty self explanatory, so I want to focus on item 1. What does it mean to "act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders?

On Brent's excommunication thread, there are plenty of forum participants who are in agreement with those who excommunicated Brent. I specifically want to hear from you. Can you tell me specific acts that warrant excommunication? Can you give examples of public opposition?

What can we say in public? Can we have any disagreement with church leaders at all? If we can, where is the line? I ask these questions in all honesty. I really hope to hear from you who agree that Brent should have been ex-ed. For those who respond, please use specific statements, not generalities. Thank you.

samizdat
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by samizdat »

I was initially in agreement with the excommunication of Brent until he released information that the crux of the matter dealt with him saying that he would look to see what Christ said before doing what the prophet said.

You saw my response to that saying that if that was the reason then the excommunication was not justified.

A person engages in apostasy under case number one when he publicly AND repeatedly says that the Church has gone astray. From the information that Brent gave us, plus other issues that he might have with the Church, would not warrant his excommunication.

Denver had been walking over a very fine line for YEARS and people documented what he said given that he put it up on a blog and wrote a book on the matter, and when asked to cease and desist refused to do so.

I have no idea what Brent was doing but based on the evidence he presented, it does not warrant his excommunication.

Lilli
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by Lilli »

We all know that the Church and it's leaders are at least not perfect. So if they are wrong about something, then it would not be true apostasy (according to God, who it only really matter with) to do contrary to what that leader may say.

Thus true apostasy is really not going against 'the church or it's leaders' but only going against 'Christ'.

So, one can be in apostasy from the Church and even excommunicated, but still be totally righteous and a true follower of Jesus Christ and thus, not lose any eternal blessings, even though mortal men/leaders may disagree.

For it is possible that the Church or any of it's leaders could be the one that is in apostasy.

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Ruth
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by Ruth »

I found this interesting actually. When discussing this with my kids and explaining that Brent was excommunicated for apostasy, they asked what it meant. I went over what the church stated and then pulled up the definition on the internet and was surprised to find that what Brent was accused of would actually more easily be found under the "heresy" definition. (as per wikipedia though....)

Apostasy: (defection or revolt') is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy (or who apostatises) is known as an apostate. The term apostasy is used by sociologists to mean renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person's former religion, in a technical sense and without pejorative connotation.

Brent did not willingly renounce or abandon his religion.

Heresy: Any provocative belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs. A heretic is a proponent of such claims or beliefs.[1] Heresy is distinct from both apostasy, which is the explicit renunciation of one's religion, principles or cause,[2] and blasphemy, which is irreverence toward religion.[3]

So it seems fairly close to what the Catholics were doing... we just call it by a different name. :ymsigh:

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Jake
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by Jake »

samizdat wrote:I was initially in agreement with the excommunication of Brent until he released information that the crux of the matter dealt with him saying that he would look to see what Christ said before doing what the prophet said.

You saw my response to that saying that if that was the reason then the excommunication was not justified.

A person engages in apostasy under case number one when he publicly AND repeatedly says that the Church has gone astray. From the information that Brent gave us, plus other issues that he might have with the Church, would not warrant his excommunication.

Denver had been walking over a very fine line for YEARS and people documented what he said given that he put it up on a blog and wrote a book on the matter, and when asked to cease and desist refused to do so.

I have no idea what Brent was doing but based on the evidence he presented, it does not warrant his excommunication.
I appreciate your response.

I want to make sure I understand. I realize you are not accusing Brent of doing this, but you are saying that if someone publicly and repeatedly says the church has gone astray, then that warrants excommunication for apostasy.

You also said that you initially agreed with the decision to ex Brent, but changed your mind. What is it that made you agree initially?

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ajax
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by ajax »

Current definition:

(v1)
"Do as I'm doing, follow follow me
If you choose not to, your in apostasy"

"If I do it high or low
You must do it or you go..."

"Do as I'm doing, follow follow me
If you choose not to, your in apostasy"

(v2)
"Think as I'm thinking, follow follow me
If you choose not to, your in apostasy"

"If I'm thinking this or that
You must think it or you scat..."

"Think as I'm thinking, follow follow me
If you choose not to, your in apostasy"

superdan
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by superdan »

:ymapplause:

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lemuel
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by lemuel »

Apostasy: "it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

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Army Of Truth
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by Army Of Truth »

According to his quote:
I know there is a prophet on the earth again today, that it is Denver, and that he is the first I know of as of the death of Joseph.
I have a couple of questions:

By saying "there is a prophet on eartch again today, that is Denver", does that mean he does not believe in Pres. Monson?
If not, does he believe that Denver is the only prophet on earth today?
Does he believe in continued revelation?

If he does not believe that President Thomas Monson is a prophet or that we have continued revelation, I don't see why he would want to belong to our church since these are a few of our core beliefs if I'm not mistaken. :-?

Also, I don't want to say if he should have been ex'ed or not, who am I to judge. I just think that if this is what he believes, then that is contrary to our church's beliefs and in clear public opposition to the Church or its leaders.

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ajax
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by ajax »

Our "core" belief is that Jesus died, was buried and rose on the third day. That He is the Saviour of the world.

"He that believeth in me..."

I don't think my core belief includes believing in any man or office. I hope I may recognize and receive true messengers when they arrive, whether in or out of the congregation.

Frederick
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by Frederick »

Ruth,

You're absolutely right, it is the so called act of heresy that is being charged against us. Interestingly, I just this week spoke to an Episcopal priest and he said that nothing could be worse than calling someone a heretic. He said the worst crimes in humanity have been committed when that label was placed upon people. Of course, the Inquisition is what immediately comes to mind. When I shared with him the story about Brent and why he was excommunicated, he had no words. He was totally shocked and couldn't believe that someone could be treated in such a manner, especially for the reasons it was done.

Samizdat totally cracked me up with his statement about people who repeatedly and publicly preach the church has gone astray. I've taught that in my church repeatedly and publicly for years. Of course, I use the scriptures exclusively to show how we've done this. I've said it directly to my SP on more than one occasion.

Seeing how the Book of Mormon is pretty clear that we have polluted the holy church of God and transfigured his holy word, I think it's pretty safe to say we've gone astray. I can't count the number of times I've shared that at church. Never has anyone ever accused me of heresy for that.

Too funny! If the church wants to call me a heretic for preaching the Book of Mormon, let them. There are certainly a lot of witnesses where I live.

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Army Of Truth
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by Army Of Truth »

ajax wrote:Our "core" belief is that Jesus died, was buried and rose on the third day. That He is the Saviour of the world.

"He that believeth in me..."

I don't think my core belief includes believing in any man or office. I hope I may recognize and receive true messengers when they arrive, whether in or out of the congregation.
That is correct! But Brent did not mention anything about disbelieving in Jesus.

Modern revelation is also a core belief of our church and that is what is in question.

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Rick Grimes
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by Rick Grimes »

ajax wrote:Our "core" belief is that Jesus died, was buried and rose on the third day. That He is the Saviour of the world.

"He that believeth in me..."

I don't think my core belief includes believing in any man or office. I hope I may recognize and receive true messengers when they arrive, whether in or out of the congregation.
He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Another of our core beliefs is to recieve those that the Lord has sent to us, or we are rejecting Him. This would be akin to the early Christians saying they love Christ, but would not hear the words of Peter whom Christ placed as His mouthpiece.

Someone refusing to accept TSM as the set apart prophet of the church are at very odds with this statement made by Christ. Snuffer has no priesthood right to claim the apostleship or the mantle of the prophet.

If what Snuffer and his followers claim to be true, that our church is indeed fallen and it is led by a false prophet, then why does he not follow the precedent of a true prophet and expose the false prophet for what he is? Not just writing his books, but by demonstrating his superiority of God's affirmation to his prophetic calling? Elijah did so with the priests of Baal. He exposed their false god and false worship for what it was. He is not the only one to do so. Christ made miracles happen despite the pharisee's believing that Christ was not of God. Where is Snuffer showing us his divine sanction of his calling? Joseph Smith had somebody claim that he too was a fallen prophet and they called fire down from heaven. We know how that ended. 8-|

I know that you will counter and ask why TSM doesn't perform these same miracles? The truth is, the miracles are still here in the Kingdom. We don't talk about it because it is not what testimony should be built upon. However, in the case of false prophets, the Lord has often granted the display of his power to establish His superiority over the other competing gods. Why is Snuffer not demonstrating that he has the Lord of Hosts on his side?

I think it's obvious that he really is nothing more than a side show, trying to craftily lead people away from the church. I don't care what his intentions are, the fact is, he is hindering the Lord's work. THIS IS WHY, people who spread the gospel of Snuffer, should they persist in their ways, need be excommunicated.

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Jake
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by Jake »

Rick Grimes wrote:
He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Another of our core beliefs is to recieve those that the Lord has sent to us, or we are rejecting Him. This would be akin to the early Christians saying they love Christ, but would not hear the words of Peter whom Christ placed as His mouthpiece.

Someone refusing to accept TSM as the set apart prophet of the church are at very odds with this statement made by Christ. Snuffer has no priesthood right to claim the apostleship or the mantle of the prophet.

If what Snuffer and his followers claim to be true, that our church is indeed fallen and it is led by a false prophet, then why does he not follow the precedent of a true prophet and expose the false prophet for what he is? Not just writing his books, but by demonstrating his superiority of God's affirmation to his prophetic calling? Elijah did so with the priests of Baal. He exposed their false god and false worship for what it was. He is not the only one to do so. Christ made miracles happen despite the pharisee's believing that Christ was not of God. Where is Snuffer showing us his divine sanction of his calling? Joseph Smith had somebody claim that he too was a fallen prophet and they called fire down from heaven. We know how that ended. 8-|

I know that you will counter and ask why TSM doesn't perform these same miracles? The truth is, the miracles are still here in the Kingdom. We don't talk about it because it is not what testimony should be built upon. However, in the case of false prophets, the Lord has often granted the display of his power to establish His superiority over the other competing gods. Why is Snuffer not demonstrating that he has the Lord of Hosts on his side?

I think it's obvious that he really is nothing more than a side show, trying to craftily lead people away from the church. I don't care what his intentions are, the fact is, he is hindering the Lord's work. THIS IS WHY, people who spread the gospel of Snuffer, should they persist in their ways, need be excommunicated.
I didn't really want to make this about Snuffer. I am more interested in getting a general understanding of what exactly it is that constitutes apostasy.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, I just want to make sure I understand your view. When I read your words, I see two different things. One is that if you reject true messengers that actually have words from God Himself, then you have apostatized and should be excommunicated from the church. The other is that if you do not accept the current leadership as the legitimate head of the church, that is also worthy of being considered apostasy and should result in someone being excommunicated from the church. Feel free to correct me if I didn't accurately sum up what you said.

Oh, and I'm not going to counter what you said about miracles. I absolutely agree with you. Not sure how old you are, but that subject used to be addressed in the temple endowment before 1990. I highly recommend finding the text of the pre-1990 endowment and reading it. So sad that this key of knowledge is no longer part of the ceremony.

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jockeybox
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Re: What is apostasy?

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Army Of Truth wrote:If he does not believe that President Thomas Monson is a prophet or that we have continued revelation, I don't see why he would want to belong to our church since these are a few of our core beliefs if I'm not mistaken.
If someone can be exe'd for saying Thomas S. Monson isn't a prophet, it stands to reason no one should be admitted unless they state Thomas S. Monson is a prophet.

Is this a requirement to be part of "the church".

Or put another way, they'll be accepted/admitted in, so long as they eventually say he is a prophet.

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jockeybox
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by jockeybox »

Rick Grimes wrote: If what Snuffer and his followers claim to be true, that our church is indeed fallen and it is led by a false prophet, then why does he not follow the precedent of a true prophet and expose the false prophet for what he is? . . .Elijah did so with the priests of Baal.
When Abinadi confronted the "fallen", priests, they burned him. Who was the winner?
Rick Grimes wrote: The truth is, the miracles are still here in the Kingdom. We don't talk about it because it is not what testimony should be built upon.
Uh oh, we better scratch out a good chunk our of scriptures if we're removing Gods miracles. We wouldn't want a testimony of that. Good thing we have the Ensign!

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jockeybox
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by jockeybox »

We may want to look at point number 4 closer.
4. Formally join another church and advocate its teachings.
To be fair, there are those that join "The church of the First Born", while being LDS. The initial thought is that should fall right in line with CoJCoLDS. However, it seems TMB will claim them heretics and ripe for apostasy. I can't speak for Brent, but this could apply.

Or maybe it's 6 one way, half a dozen another.

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Daryl
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by Daryl »

jockeybox wrote:
Rick Grimes wrote: The truth is, the miracles are still here in the Kingdom. We don't talk about it because it is not what testimony should be built upon.
Uh oh, we better scratch out a good chunk our of scriptures if we're removing Gods miracles. We wouldn't want a testimony of that. Good thing we have the Ensign!
Do you have faith not to receive a miracle?

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Rick Grimes
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by Rick Grimes »

jockeybox wrote:
Rick Grimes wrote: If what Snuffer and his followers claim to be true, that our church is indeed fallen and it is led by a false prophet, then why does he not follow the precedent of a true prophet and expose the false prophet for what he is? . . .Elijah did so with the priests of Baal.
When Abinadi confronted the "fallen", priests, they burned him. Who was the winner?
Rick Grimes wrote: The truth is, the miracles are still here in the Kingdom. We don't talk about it because it is not what testimony should be built upon.
Uh oh, we better scratch out a good chunk our of scriptures if we're removing Gods miracles. We wouldn't want a testimony of that. Good thing we have the Ensign!
And TSM is going to "burn" Snuffer? I didn't know that the Church had Judicial authority that every Anti should be fearful of! :-o

Thomas
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by Thomas »

It seems like, we are adding fuel to the fire for those who claim, we are a cult. If Brent's version of events are true, it seems having faith in a man is required to retain membership.

I have no interest in abandoning the truths that the church has given me. There is more truth there than any other source I know of. It is ridiculous when people call for you to leave because your version of beliefs are different than theirs. How long will it be until your belief is no longer tolerated?

I think we need to be more focused on Christ. If God gives a message, through a prophet, then we best listen up and pay heed. I do not think we should be idolizing the office holder, which we obviously do. I know people who have gotten Monson's autograph and pictures taken with him. Think of the television show American Idol. The show attempts to create someone we will idolize. Someone we want to get autographs from and get our picture taken with them.

Why do think the scriptures call it idolatry. just because we don't bow down and worship Monson doesn't mean, we are not making an idol of him. Isaiah says, we make idols of our material goods. It is what we put our trust in. That is what our God is. What we have placed our trust in. Trust in any thing other than God is misplaced and is idolatry.

Faith is hope for things not seen but hoped for. I can see Monson. I can see the church buildings. I can see the brethren. There is no such thing as faith in a prophet.
Ether 12:6

6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.
It is faith in Christ that saves.
Moroni 7: 38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.
I don't think anyone on this forum is an enemy to the church. We love the church. It breaks our hearts to see us turn our attention and focus away from Christ. We have read scripture. We know the scriptures call us to repentance. We have been warned about crying, "all is well". It seems we must cry, "all is well" or be asked to leave.

Thomas
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by Thomas »

If Snuffer is a modern day Korihor, then Monson should put the curse of dumbness upon him, like Alma did to Korihor.

ebenezerarise
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by ebenezerarise »

What a bunch of bunk I'm reading here.

I don't know about Brent but I do know Snuffer made very specific covenants. He broke those covenants repeatedly and has said again and again that he will not keep them. What choice did the Church have after working with him for more than 18 months?

Thomas
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by Thomas »

ebenezerarise wrote:What a bunch of bunk I'm reading here.

I don't know about Brent but I do know Snuffer made very specific covenants. He broke those covenants repeatedly and has said again and again that he will not keep them. What choice did the Church have after working with him for more than 18 months?
So, I take it your belief is that all is well in Zion?

I think Snuffer tried to keep his covenants but since he would not say, all is well, he was booted.

jwharton
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by jwharton »

Thomas wrote:If Snuffer is a modern day Korihor, then Monson should put the curse of dumbness upon him, like Alma did to Korihor.
Being excommunicated is pretty close to that in my book.

On the one hand it prevents you from speaking in church.
On the other hand it prevents you from hearing the Holy Ghost.
Excommunication makes you both deaf and dumb in critical ways.

ebenezerarise
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Re: What is apostasy?

Post by ebenezerarise »

Thomas wrote: So, I take it your belief is that all is well in Zion? I think Snuffer tried to keep his covenants but since he would not say, all is well, he was booted.
That's not what Snuffer said and you know it.

Why would you assume my belief is that "all is well in Zion"?

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