Did polygamy destroy the church?

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Simon
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Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by Simon »

Up to date, I am not perfectly certain as how to excactly view polygamy. Was it a revelation? Was it a deception? Was it both to a certain extent? Did Joseph give in to that deception? Did he not? Did he ever gave in and repented of it?


I am still on my path finding out the truth.. But I thought I would share a few things that sound quiet intersting and are, in my sight, worth pondering.


First, we have a scripture that was in the 1835 edition, but later on removed by Brigham Young in 1876
D&C 101:4
Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.
How are we to understand that scripture? Does it not change the whole matter entirely?


Several witness affirm that polygamy was not really what the Lord ever intendet for the saint, and that Joseph even stated that polygamy was not just a mistake, but that that mistake could destroy the Lords church.

( Obviously all second hand statements make it even more difficult to dicern wether it was truely said by Joseph or not, so, one has to choose for themselved. But considering that the D&C clearly gives us a revelation on that matter sheds some light on these wittnesses )
1.Stake President William Marks: In July 1853, Stake President Marks wrote that he met with the prophet shortly before his martyrdom. Smith said: “We are a ruined people…this doctrine of polygamy, or Spiritual-wife System, …taught and practiced among us, will prove our destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived…it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down, and its practice stopped in the Church.” Marks said Smith ordered him to go to the high council: “I will have charges preferred against all who practice this doctrine; and I want you to try them by the laws of the Church, and cut them off, if they will not repent, and cease the practice of this doctrine … I will go into the stand and preach against it with all my might, and in this way, we may rid the Church of this damnable heresy.” But Smith was killed shortly after; When Marks related what Smith had said, his testimony “was pronounced false by the Twelve and disbelieved.”
(Quinn p. 147-8, http://signaturebooks.com/2010/10/excer ... -polygamy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

2.Hyrum Smith (June 10, 1844) tells Nauvoo City Council that the “1843 revelation pertains to ancient polygamy, not to modern times…” (Quinn p. 645)

3.William Clayton’s diary (June 23, 1844) shows “just before the prophet returned to Emma [that night], he told his secretary to burn the Council of Fifty's minutes—directing his attention to destroying the written evidence of polygamy." (Quinn p. 147)

4.Emma Smith’s 1847 account to William E. McLellin: While she and Joseph were alone in their Mansion House bedroom on June 23, 1844, it was Joseph Smith and not she who burned the original manuscript of the 1843 polygamy revelation…Smith “told her that the doctrine and practice of Polygamy was going to ruin the Church” and then he burned the revelation…
(Quinn, p. 147).

5..Brigham Young told a Mormon general conference that “Joseph was worn out with it, but as to his denying any such thing I never knew that he denied the doctrine of polygamy.” Young stated: “Some have said that he did, but I do not believe he ever did.” Young could not deny all these testimonies that Smith’s last days were spent repenting of polygamy. “The testimony of Emma Smith and Marks was easy to discount because of their long opposition to polygamy. Nevertheless there was similar evidence from such polygamy advocates as William Clayton, Stephen Markham, Heber C. Kimball, and Joseph F. Smith’s ‘many’ faithful informants in Utah. This is the context in which Brigham Young claimed the prophet did not have ’one particle of light in him’ ”during his final days because he was denouncing the immoral practice of polygamy that Joseph claimed would destroy the Lord's restored Church (Quinn, p. 146-48).

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Melissa
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by Melissa »

Never heard any if this before, thanks for the fresh info and perspective. So it was a revelation explaining biblical polygamy and that is it? He thought he had to practice it because maybe it was "revealed" to him? A test indeed and I'm not too sure it was designed for the test to be done quickly- meaning, it seems like polygamy was "supposed" to happen? If it truly would ruin the church then wouldn't God clear things up? I know it sure has been a test for nearly every member of the church in modern day in one form or another. If our church didn't believe in polygamy and promised we wouldn't have to live it, I would feel way better about the church as a whole.

Very interesting...poor early saints if this is indeed true.
Maybe this is why the church NEVER praises the early saints for living polygamy but praise them for living true to the teaching of the leaders all while having great sympathy on their faces.

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jbalm
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by jbalm »

Worst thing that ever happened to the church. It spawned a whole culture of deception that has tainted the church ever since. And that was just one of the problems.

Think Warren Jeffs. Would you want to be part of his group? Because that is what the church used to be.

And since you cited Quinn, get ready for all the attack the messenger, not the message stuff.

Some people around here are pretty particular about which particular brand of hearsay they find acceptable.

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Melissa
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by Melissa »

jbalm wrote:Worst thing that ever happened to the church. It spawned a whole culture of deception that has tainted the church ever since. And that was just one of the problems.

Think Warren Jeffs. Would you want to be part of his group? Because that is what the church used to be.

And since you cited Quinn, get ready for all the attack the messenger, not the message stuff.

Some people around here are pretty particular about which particular brand of hearsay they find acceptable.
That's disturbing. But I don't see how it could have been practiced any different. Wow, just wow. It would be great if this mess could officially be cleared up.

Fiannan
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by Fiannan »

Christianity is based on the Old Testament -- it is merely a sect of Judaism...what makes it different is Jesus ultimately. Any other differences are due to Paganism that laid the foundation of what is called Protestantism and Catholicism today.

If polygamy is wrong then Judaism is inherently wrong and thus all the Abrahamic religions. Why do Mormons make the mistake of believing polygamy is all about them?

Fiannan
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by Fiannan »

jbalm wrote:Worst thing that ever happened to the church. It spawned a whole culture of deception that has tainted the church ever since. And that was just one of the problems.

Think Warren Jeffs. Would you want to be part of his group? Because that is what the church used to be.

And since you cit
Not really. From my understanding Warren Jeff's father was a far different man than his son. Jeffs made his church all about him and that is not what the LDS Church used to be. There are a great many polygamist groups that are far more pure in their practice of Mormonism than the FLDS.

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Rick Grimes
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by Rick Grimes »

No it didn't. If you look at the fruit of polygamy while it was practised in the Church, you will see the great number of church leaders that came from those plural families. Their leadership was integral in the building up of the kingdom. I firmly believe the Lord instituted it to "raise seed quickly" for His fledgling Kingdom that was on the rise.

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jbalm
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by jbalm »

D&C 49 (still in there):

15 And again, verily I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man.

16 Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation;

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jbalm
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by jbalm »

Fiannan wrote:Christianity is based on the Old Testament -- it is merely a sect of Judaism...what makes it different is Jesus ultimately. Any other differences are due to Paganism that laid the foundation of what is called Protestantism and Catholicism today.

If polygamy is wrong then Judaism is inherently wrong and thus all the Abrahamic religions. Why do Mormons make the mistake of believing polygamy is all about them?
Christianity is based on the New Testament, actually.

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Simon
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by Simon »

I guess no matter wether polygamy was wanted, but became finally misundestood by men, or wether it was never at all intendet by the Lord, guess we can all agree on the fact that the way it stands today, it has rather caused damage. Was that intendet by the Lord?

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Melissa
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by Melissa »

Simon wrote:.....Was that intendet by the Lord?
Some may say that the Lord has intended EXACTLY what has happened so far. Others will say that the Lord allows people to make their own choices. And of course some say they are false prophets and church is not true anymore and some say that polygamy is THE LAW of marriage.

This life is to learn and grow - if Joseph asked the Lord about ancient polygamy and the Lord gave him an answer of how the law was (back then) then the Lord did answer him but Joseph maybe had to figure out on his own how to handle the information. Polygamy could very well have been something for Joseph (being the prophet to restore all) and intended to be something completely different than anyone thinks.

Polygamy was not something that was looked upon favorably in this country at that time (right?) so it was going against the normal form of marriage. I just don't know or see why church wide polygamy would ever have worked long-term or needed to happen. It simply doesn't work right.

It takes one man and one woman to become perfect - all other things like polygamy must simply be culturally acceptable and regulated or done for a specific purpose under Gods plan such as Abraham. Polygamy simply makes no sense in the long run. It wont and doesn't work.

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lemuel
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by lemuel »

Rick Grimes wrote:No it didn't. If you look at the fruit of polygamy while it was practised in the Church, you will see the great number of church leaders that came from those plural families. Their leadership was integral in the building up of the kingdom. I firmly believe the Lord instituted it to "raise seed quickly" for His fledgling Kingdom that was on the rise.
Consider the tradeoffs though. Many children were born to polygamy, but polygamy has exacted a huge toll on our missionary efforts that persists to this day.

There were tons of converts in the 1830s and 40s. Once word got out about polygamy, how many converts did we get through the rest of the 19th century? Who wants to join a church that does that?

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Simon
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by Simon »

Melissa wrote:
Simon wrote:.....Was that intendet by the Lord?
Some may say that the Lord has intended EXACTLY what has happened so far. Others will say that the Lord allows people to make their own choices. And of course some say they are false prophets and church is not true anymore and some say that polygamy is THE LAW of marriage.

This life is to learn and grow - if Joseph asked the Lord about ancient polygamy and the Lord gave him an answer of how the law was (back then) then the Lord did answer him but Joseph maybe had to figure out on his own how to handle the information. Polygamy could very well have been something for Joseph (being the prophet to restore all) and intended to be something completely different than anyone thinks.

Polygamy was not something that was looked upon favorably in this country at that time (right?) so it was going against the normal form of marriage. I just don't know or see why church wide polygamy would ever have worked long-term or needed to happen. It simply doesn't work right.

It takes one man and one woman to become perfect - all other things like polygamy must simply be culturally acceptable and regulated or done for a specific purpose under Gods plan such as Abraham. Polygamy simply makes no sense in the long run. It wont and doesn't work.
Guess what I ponder at times is wether God wanted the church to stick out that way, so that not everybody would come along to join but only those that can hear his voice out of all that confusion, or if it really was a sin how it happend. If we are honest, and the scripture from DC 104 is correct, than it seems to be clear that it all was not Gods desire.

Personally I would welcome that, and I would prefere a Joseph that erred on that one thing, than to paint a perfect picture of him and still carry a lie within church. To me, I know he was a prophet, and this would not at all cause me his call on this earth.

Lilli
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by Lilli »

Depends on which leader you believe, Joseph or Brigham. For we at least know one of them lied and deceived the Church and lead many astray about polygamy. The question we all have to discern for ourselves, by the scriptures, Christ and the Holy Spirit, is which one was speaking truthfully?

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drjme
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by drjme »

Rick Grimes wrote:No it didn't. If you look at the fruit of polygamy while it was practised in the Church, you will see the great number of church leaders that came from those plural families. Their leadership was integral in the building up of the kingdom. I firmly believe the Lord instituted it to "raise seed quickly" for His fledgling Kingdom that was on the rise.
Haha! This was great.

"You can tell polygamy is true, becuase they had lots of children."

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drjme
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by drjme »

Simon wrote:Up to date, I am not perfectly certain as how to excactly view polygamy. Was it a revelation? Was it a deception? Was it both to a certain extent? Did Joseph give in to that deception? Did he not? Did he ever gave in and repented of it?


I am still on my path finding out the truth.. But I thought I would share a few things that sound quiet intersting and are, in my sight, worth pondering.


First, we have a scripture that was in the 1835 edition, but later on removed by Brigham Young in 1876
D&C 101:4
Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.
How are we to understand that scripture? Does it not change the whole matter entirely?


Several witness affirm that polygamy was not really what the Lord ever intendet for the saint, and that Joseph even stated that polygamy was not just a mistake, but that that mistake could destroy the Lords church.

( Obviously all second hand statements make it even more difficult to dicern wether it was truely said by Joseph or not, so, one has to choose for themselved. But considering that the D&C clearly gives us a revelation on that matter sheds some light on these wittnesses )
1.Stake President William Marks: In July 1853, Stake President Marks wrote that he met with the prophet shortly before his martyrdom. Smith said: “We are a ruined people…this doctrine of polygamy, or Spiritual-wife System, …taught and practiced among us, will prove our destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived…it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down, and its practice stopped in the Church.” Marks said Smith ordered him to go to the high council: “I will have charges preferred against all who practice this doctrine; and I want you to try them by the laws of the Church, and cut them off, if they will not repent, and cease the practice of this doctrine … I will go into the stand and preach against it with all my might, and in this way, we may rid the Church of this damnable heresy.” But Smith was killed shortly after; When Marks related what Smith had said, his testimony “was pronounced false by the Twelve and disbelieved.”
(Quinn p. 147-8, http://signaturebooks.com/2010/10/excer ... -polygamy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

2.Hyrum Smith (June 10, 1844) tells Nauvoo City Council that the “1843 revelation pertains to ancient polygamy, not to modern times…” (Quinn p. 645)

3.William Clayton’s diary (June 23, 1844) shows “just before the prophet returned to Emma [that night], he told his secretary to burn the Council of Fifty's minutes—directing his attention to destroying the written evidence of polygamy." (Quinn p. 147)

4.Emma Smith’s 1847 account to William E. McLellin: While she and Joseph were alone in their Mansion House bedroom on June 23, 1844, it was Joseph Smith and not she who burned the original manuscript of the 1843 polygamy revelation…Smith “told her that the doctrine and practice of Polygamy was going to ruin the Church” and then he burned the revelation…
(Quinn, p. 147).

5..Brigham Young told a Mormon general conference that “Joseph was worn out with it, but as to his denying any such thing I never knew that he denied the doctrine of polygamy.” Young stated: “Some have said that he did, but I do not believe he ever did.” Young could not deny all these testimonies that Smith’s last days were spent repenting of polygamy. “The testimony of Emma Smith and Marks was easy to discount because of their long opposition to polygamy. Nevertheless there was similar evidence from such polygamy advocates as William Clayton, Stephen Markham, Heber C. Kimball, and Joseph F. Smith’s ‘many’ faithful informants in Utah. This is the context in which Brigham Young claimed the prophet did not have ’one particle of light in him’ ”during his final days because he was denouncing the immoral practice of polygamy that Joseph claimed would destroy the Lord's restored Church (Quinn, p. 146-48).
Polyandry, not polygamy does the damage.

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drjme
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by drjme »

Fiannan wrote:Christianity is based on the Old Testament -- it is merely a sect of Judaism...what makes it different is Jesus ultimately. Any other differences are due to Paganism that laid the foundation of what is called Protestantism and Catholicism today.

If polygamy is wrong then Judaism is inherently wrong and thus all the Abrahamic religions. Why do Mormons make the mistake of believing polygamy is all about them?
Erm, Christianity is based on the New Testament.... Judaism is the religion of the Pharisees based on the Old Testament laws, an extremely legalistic modified version of mosaic law. How could Christianity be an off shoot of Judaism? Because it started with Jews?

Lilli
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by Lilli »

Simon wrote:This is the context in which Brigham Young claimed the prophet did not have ’one particle of light in him’ ”during his final days because he was denouncing the immoral practice of polygamy that Joseph claimed would destroy the Lord's restored Church (Quinn, p. 146-48).
It's interesting that it appears from history that both Joseph and Brigham thought the other had gone astray in their last years.

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Simon
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by Simon »

Lilli wrote:
Simon wrote:This is the context in which Brigham Young claimed the prophet did not have ’one particle of light in him’ ”during his final days because he was denouncing the immoral practice of polygamy that Joseph claimed would destroy the Lord's restored Church (Quinn, p. 146-48).
It's interesting that it appears from history that both Joseph and Brigham thought the other had gone astray in their last years.
Good that the Rock upon which God builds his Kingdom are not the Prophets, but revelation ;)

AGStacker
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by AGStacker »

Don't forget the verse in Jacob 2.

CWilson
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by CWilson »

Rick Grimes wrote:No it didn't. If you look at the fruit of polygamy while it was practised in the Church, you will see the great number of church leaders that came from those plural families. Their leadership was integral in the building up of the kingdom. I firmly believe the Lord instituted it to "raise seed quickly" for His fledgling Kingdom that was on the rise.
I used to think the same thing. But after looking at how the church was turned into a business by those men and all the history they suppressed I believe they were merely setting themselves and their families up to be the mormon royalty.

jo1952
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by jo1952 »

Both D&C 49 and the D&C 101 of yesterday (a second witness??) promoted just one wife.

I offer the following: The Church was under condemnation by the time D&C 84 is received. Joseph was already giving the people what they wanted in the way of new rules and laws. It was Brigham who had the desire to have multiple wives physically (having been introduced to polygamy by another religion that was practiced in that day). Perhaps Joseph then introduced the idea of spiritual wifery in order to combat what some of the leaders were already physically practicing against his wishes. But that was not a good solution. I think perhaps Joseph began being spiritually "sealed" to different women in order to protect them from the physically active polygamists among the members of the Church. IOW, if he could spiritually marry them, then the polygamists wouldn't be able to convince those women to enter into a physical polygamous marriage with them; which thing was an abomination to God.

Inasmuch as God is not going to remove agency, it is doubtful that it will be easy to see "punishment" being meted out in this realm for participating in something which is an abomination to God. So, for those who claim that polygamy was a good thing, or that it helped, or some such thing...this is not a proof that God was pleased with the situation.

ebenezerarise
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by ebenezerarise »

That the Lord required different things at different times through revelation is long established. From what I can see from what is posted in this thread versus what I have read from family records of those who lived this law there is a vast difference in both the understanding of what plural marriage meant and how it was instituted by the Lord. In short, most of you have NO CLUE what you are talking about. Polygamy didn't ruin it Church -- it saved it.

Further separation of the wheat from the tares await us. Those who live by the Spirit will know what to do. Those who then did flourished and were blessed beyond measure. Those of us who are heirs of that legacy should be blessing their very names for their faithfulness and sacrifice.

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lemuel
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by lemuel »

jo1952 wrote: It was Brigham who had the desire to have multiple wives physically (having been introduced to polygamy by another religion that was practiced in that day).
I've never heard this. Do you have a link?

Fiannan
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Re: Did polygamy destroy the church?

Post by Fiannan »

drjme wrote:
Fiannan wrote:Christianity is based on the Old Testament -- it is merely a sect of Judaism...what makes it different is Jesus ultimately. Any other differences are due to Paganism that laid the foundation of what is called Protestantism and Catholicism today.

If polygamy is wrong then Judaism is inherently wrong and thus all the Abrahamic religions. Why do Mormons make the mistake of believing polygamy is all about them?
Erm, Christianity is based on the New Testament.... Judaism is the religion of the Pharisees based on the Old Testament laws, an extremely legalistic modified version of mosaic law. How could Christianity be an off shoot of Judaism? Because it started with Jews?
And this is why the people I know who are Jewish shake their heads when discussing religion with non-Jews. It may also explain why, until recent years, Jews tended to get along better with Muslims than Christians in places like Spain.

Have you ever read the Mosaic Law? If so was it from God or man?

And you might note that the original religion of Christianity was started by a rabbi..a Jew named Jesus. Then some Romans took over and...

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