Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after all

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freedomforall
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

Penstress wrote:
Penstress wrote:
AGStacker wrote:Tithing is "interest annually". Not income. Stop quoting presidents who do not supersede God's law established through the Prophet Joseph Smith in section 119.

We had the lesson yesterday and not once was section 119 read from until I mentioned that it contained the explanation of what tithing was used for. In fact when I said so the teacher asked where that information was found?! I said "the law of tithing". He said "where's that"? I said "section 119".

Don't you see we follow the manual and not the scriptures?! Literally, we didn't once open up section 119 until I mentioned it. I don't have the heart/courage to tell the Elders we aren't following the law correctly 1) because I think those with weak testimonies may be affected and 2) that it will create contention. I don't know what else to do.

Like this post. :ymapplause:

I did!! And I got surprising wisdom. I'm at peace with this revelation. I know it's right. Surplus. Shockingly..... Surplus.
So what do you pay, a nickel for every ten spot?

freedomforall
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

D&C 119:4,5
4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.
5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.


I looked up the word "interest" to see if I could come up with a definition that could closely define the churches idea of what one/tenth is.

Here is what I found:

Interest...a legal share, right, or title, as in the ownership of property or in a business undertaking.

To me, all that we own, our property, if you will...is our interest. Therefore, conversely, interest is everything we own. Since everything we own usually is paid for out of our earnings, in which, earnings is also our property, our interest...we pay ten% out of our interest or earnings.

Do any other definitions fit?

1. a feeling of having one's attention, concern, or curiosity particularly engaged by something: She has an interest in architecture.
2. something that arouses such feelings; something in which one is interested: Chess is his only interest.
3. the power to excite such feelings; quality of being interesting: a subject that holds little interest for me.
4. concern or importance: a matter of primary interest.
5. a business, cause, etc., in which a person has a share, concern, or responsibility.
6. a legal share, right, or title, as in the ownership of property or in a business undertaking.
7. participation in a cause or in advantage or responsibility.
8. Often, interests. a group exerting influence on and often financially involved in an enterprise, industry, or sphere of activity.
9. the state of being affected by something in respect to advantage or detriment.
10. Often, interests. benefit; advantage: We have your best interests in mind.
11. regard for one's own advantage or profit; self-interest.
12. influence due to personal importance or capability.
13.
a. a sum paid or charged for the use of money or for borrowing money.
b. such a sum expressed as a percentage of the amount borrowed to be paid over a given period, usu. one year.
14. something added or thrown in above an exact equivalent: He returned the insult with interest.
v.t.
15. to engage or excite the attention or curiosity of.
16. to concern (a person, nation, etc.) in something; involve.
17. to cause to take a personal concern or share; induce to participate.

Ya? Nay?

Penstress
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by Penstress »

I did!! And I got surprising wisdom. I'm at peace with this revelation. I know it's right. Surplus. Shockingly..... Surplus.[/quote]
So what do you pay, a nickel for every ten spot?[/quote]

Yup!! It's great because I have great peace. Lots to help the poor...unlike before. More on my debts.... Makes clearer sense to me than any false beliefs I had previously that kept me unable to help the poor or get outa debt. I'll finally be debt free in six months. More for the poor and an increase in surplus so my tithes go up. now that makes sense.

Funny.... My BFF was praying about me and tithing because I judged her being unable to pay. I did throw my self righteous judgements out there.... And didnt know she was asking the lord to teach me about tithing. That's when I learned of it. Had no clue someone was praying for me. Crazzzzy.... She was paying ten percent, the asking the bishop for it back. Over and over and over again. Rediculous!!!!!! All while living in a homeless shelter!!!!! That's utter nonsense!!!!!

I was shouting pay ten percent, ten percent income. Why?? Because if I had to pay ten grand last year she better pay her 3k !! It's not fair!! I was a jerk. Now I have wisdom. ANd now..... She does too.

Judge if you want, I don't care what the hell you think. I know I'm right. I have total peace about it. Absolute clarity...

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AussieOi
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

freedomfighter wrote:D&C 119:4,5
4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.
5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.


I looked up the word "interest" to see if I could come up with a definition that could closely define the churches idea of what one/tenth is.

Here is what I found:

Interest...a legal share, right, or title, as in the ownership of property or in a business undertaking.
Ya? Nay?


Nay, and you know why too so I'm not going to quote about the 7th sentence on page 1 of this thread, which was the 1828 definition of Interest

The pertinent definitions provided by Webster's 1828 inform us that it is a "share; portion; part; any surplus advantage." There's that word surplus again. It turns out that Interest is practically synonymous with surplus. As is also the meaning of increase.

But personally, I think this explains what Joseph Smith had in mind when he delivered the law of tithing


Covenant of Tithing

Section Two 1834-37, p.70

"On the evening of the 29th of November, I united in prayer with Brother Oliver for the continuance of blessings. After giving thanks for the relief which the Lord had lately sent us by opening the hearts of the brethren from the east, to loan us $430; after commencing and rejoicing before the Lord on this occasion, we agreed to enter into the following covenant with the Lord, viz:

That if the Lord will prosper us in our business and open the way before us that we may obtain means to pay our debts, that we be not troubled nor brought into disrepute before the world, nor His people; after that, of all that He shall give unto us, we will give a tenth to be bestowed upon the poor in His Church, or as He shall command; and that we will be faithful over that which he has entrusted to our care, that we may obtain much; and that our children after us shall remember to observe this sacred and holy covenant; and that our children, and our children's children, may know of the same, we have subscribed our names with our own hands." (TPJS, pg 70).

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AussieOi
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

Penstress wrote:Judge if you want, I don't care what the hell you think. I know I'm right. I have total peace about it. Absolute clarity...

thata great story Penstress

I really respect your ability to turn around and say that

i wonder where I am in my life that in a year I'll be able to say "i was such a fool too"

Hopefully I will be able to say that, then

Yes, clarity.
It just...makes...sense

Christ doesn't want to punish us, or make our families go without

It is completely antithetical to what we ar taught he was

plus that story of going back and forth, give, ask, give, ask, its just so inefficient and illogical

we discussed it in about page 5, drjme said it well,, the trick is to not let it become easier (not that giving of surplus for families especially is ever going to be easy), but still make it such that the giving of offerings still has to be that sacrifice, of something

i can't begin to express how i wish people who are fastidious in the extreme interpretation could experince the feeling that participating in the giving of offerings is

to seek out someone to help, to help them, directly, anonymously, or via a 3rd party like a charity

or just give it

like drjme and the car, or the Cow his father in law gave

i mean a cow! how whack is that. but thats how it is

it isn't the money, money is just a medium of exchange

god doesnt want our money

tithing is about money

god wants our all, to help others

but we don't need to make our families suffer, or go without necessities

Thats what Paul in 2 Corinthians 8 is all about, why its so clear

13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:

14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:

freedomforall
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

Penstress wrote:I did!! And I got surprising wisdom. I'm at peace with this revelation. I know it's right. Surplus. Shockingly..... Surplus.
So what do you pay, a nickel for every ten spot?[/quote]

Yup!! It's great because I have great peace. Lots to help the poor...unlike before. More on my debts.... Makes clearer sense to me than any false beliefs I had previously that kept me unable to help the poor or get outa debt. I'll finally be debt free in six months. More for the poor and an increase in surplus so my tithes go up. now that makes sense.

Funny.... My BFF was praying about me and tithing because I judged her being unable to pay. I did throw my self righteous judgements out there.... And didnt know she was asking the lord to teach me about tithing. That's when I learned of it. Had no clue someone was praying for me. Crazzzzy.... She was paying ten percent, the asking the bishop for it back. Over and over and over again. Rediculous!!!!!! All while living in a homeless shelter!!!!! That's utter nonsense!!!!!

I was shouting pay ten percent, ten percent income. Why?? Because if I had to pay ten grand last year she better pay her 3k !! It's not fair!! I was a jerk. Now I have wisdom. ANd now..... She does too.

Judge if you want, I don't care what the hell you think. I know I'm right. I have total peace about it. Absolute clarity...[/quote]

I guess you're so happy you had to cuss because of the agony inside your soul. And whose judging? Actually, I'm happy for you. It is God that looks upon the heart, not I. I just have to put up with people cussing and ranting. God says, "let us reason together" but us humans have lost the knack of it. Now we let Satan drive our thoughts. I can't believe how many posters we now have on the forum that seem to thrive on causing discord. But I guess it makes perfect sense if one doesn't think about it.

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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by kathedralegs »

FF what is your motivation for posting so heavily on every single tithing thread? And feeling the need to start your own? Is it because you have love and concern for your fellow saints? Or is it because you want to be right? Or are there other reasons? We are all at different levels of learning. The spirit teaches truth and that can be different for each individual depending on their level of understanding and knowledge.

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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by drjme »

freedomfighter wrote: I guess you're so happy you had to cuss because of the agony inside your soul. And whose judging? Actually, I'm happy for you. It is God that looks upon the heart, not I. I just have to put up with people cussing and ranting. God says, "let us reason together" but us humans have lost the knack of it. Now we let Satan drive our thoughts. I can't believe how many posters we now have on the forum that seem to thrive on causing discord. But I guess it makes perfect sense if one doesn't think about it.
cmon FF let go of the Hobby ;) Dont judge other people on a standard that you set for yourself.
you know there is enough scriptural evidence to take it as surplus, and much modern commentary to take it as on gross. If you believe it is best for you to pay on gross, that's great. I believe it is tithes on surplus, but I don't give on surplus, I give more, and I don't keep track of it, so maybe I pay on gross? I don't know, and I don't care for the figure, It's not about the figure it's about the heart.

We shouldn't pay tithes because we seek blessings in return, that's like prepaid blessings/blessings on layby. We should give tithes because we want to support the church we go to, because we agree with the message and want to aid in the spreading and sustaining of that message. Thats really all tithes are for.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by A Random Phrase »

AussieOi wrote:Mate you get it!

Do you understand what drjme is saying when he says god doesn't want 10%...he wants everything!

And the Pharisees living the "perfect tithe" but missing the point.

And widows mite.

You have to connect the dots from consecration, which failed, to tithing, and its very simple objective.

Its just a law to pay those bills and fund the church.

Its our OFFERINGS, that's as much The celestial law

And its on by paying the simple, intended
Yep.

God requires everything we have and are - to be willing to sacrifice everything to Him, holding nothing back.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by A Random Phrase »

BrianM wrote:One time I lived in a country where they taxed 90% of my income and some LDS' were saying I should pay tithing on gross, which left me with $0.00 (90% went to the government, 10% to the Church). I died of starvation shortly thereafter.

=((

I'm so sad you died. :((

O:-)

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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by Penstress »

freedomfighter wrote:
Penstress wrote:I did!! And I got surprising wisdom. I'm at peace with this revelation. I know it's right. Surplus. Shockingly..... Surplus.
So what do you pay, a nickel for every ten spot?
Yup!! It's great because I have great peace. Lots to help the poor...unlike before. More on my debts.... Makes clearer sense to me than any false beliefs I had previously that kept me unable to help the poor or get outa debt. I'll finally be debt free in six months. More for the poor and an increase in surplus so my tithes go up. now that makes sense.

Funny.... My BFF was praying about me and tithing because I judged her being unable to pay. I did throw my self righteous judgements out there.... And didnt know she was asking the lord to teach me about tithing. That's when I learned of it. Had no clue someone was praying for me. Crazzzzy.... She was paying ten percent, the asking the bishop for it back. Over and over and over again. Rediculous!!!!!! All while living in a homeless shelter!!!!! That's utter nonsense!!!!!

I was shouting pay ten percent, ten percent income. Why?? Because if I had to pay ten grand last year she better pay her 3k !! It's not fair!! I was a jerk. Now I have wisdom. ANd now..... She does too.

Judge if you want, I don't care what the hell you think. I know I'm right. I have total peace about it. Absolute clarity...[/quote]

I guess you're so happy you had to cuss because of the agony inside your soul. And whose judging? Actually, I'm happy for you. It is God that looks upon the heart, not I. I just have to put up with people cussing and ranting. God says, "let us reason together" but us humans have lost the knack of it. Now we let Satan drive our thoughts. I can't believe how many posters we now have on the forum that seem to thrive on causing discord. But I guess it makes perfect sense if one doesn't think about it.[/quote]

Hell is in the scriptures.... Read it almost daily. If that is the biggest thing you have to worry about then.... Rock on Brotha.

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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

Penstress wrote:
freedomfighter wrote:
Penstress wrote:I did!! And I got surprising wisdom. I'm at peace with this revelation. I know it's right. Surplus. Shockingly..... Surplus.
So what do you pay, a nickel for every ten spot?
Yup!! It's great because I have great peace. Lots to help the poor...unlike before. More on my debts.... Makes clearer sense to me than any false beliefs I had previously that kept me unable to help the poor or get outa debt. I'll finally be debt free in six months. More for the poor and an increase in surplus so my tithes go up. now that makes sense.

Funny.... My BFF was praying about me and tithing because I judged her being unable to pay. I did throw my self righteous judgements out there.... And didnt know she was asking the lord to teach me about tithing. That's when I learned of it. Had no clue someone was praying for me. Crazzzzy.... She was paying ten percent, the asking the bishop for it back. Over and over and over again. Rediculous!!!!!! All while living in a homeless shelter!!!!! That's utter nonsense!!!!!

I was shouting pay ten percent, ten percent income. Why?? Because if I had to pay ten grand last year she better pay her 3k !! It's not fair!! I was a jerk. Now I have wisdom. ANd now..... She does too.

Judge if you want, I don't care what the hell you think. I know I'm right. I have total peace about it. Absolute clarity...
I guess you're so happy you had to cuss because of the agony inside your soul. And whose judging? Actually, I'm happy for you. It is God that looks upon the heart, not I. I just have to put up with people cussing and ranting. God says, "let us reason together" but us humans have lost the knack of it. Now we let Satan drive our thoughts. I can't believe how many posters we now have on the forum that seem to thrive on causing discord. But I guess it makes perfect sense if one doesn't think about it.[/quote]

Hell is in the scriptures.... Read it almost daily. If that is the biggest thing you have to worry about then.... Rock on Brotha.[/quote]
What do you think of hell?

I do rock on:


But I have a hard time Towing the line:


Sometimes I can help someone:


But eventually I get crazy from people giving me a bad time:



I'm just glad I'm not DOA:


But maybe I could meet Big Joe:


And then someone on earth could ask "please send me an angel":



Most of all, I remember that love hurts:


So maybe I'll just lay low and skip a rope:


Or I could take a peek at the lady on the billboard:


And become a lonesome fugitive:


And always be looking in the rear view mirror:


And ask myself:

Penstress
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by Penstress »

I think you're a bored nut job.

freedomforall
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

Penstress wrote:I think you're a bored nut job.
Thanks for the kind words. May they be recorded in heaven for a reminder of your kindness.

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AussieOi
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

Penstress wrote:I think you're a bored nut job.

Superfluous/ redundant comment really

jo1952
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by jo1952 »

Great stuff, Aussie01!!! Thank you for the time and effort you put into this thread!!

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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

Thank Rock Waterman, he did most of the work
but yeah, I see how hard it is for most every friend , outside of the church, to pay their bills. Costs have just gone up so much there is just nothing left over.
how on earth can lds families, who are younger, more kids, and even more single income, how can they get by month to month?

The bribe/ guilt conundrum makes me sick

jo1952
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by jo1952 »

AussieOi wrote:Thank Rock Waterman, he did most of the work
but yeah, I see how hard it is for most every friend , outside of the church, to pay their bills. Costs have just gone up so much there is just nothing left over.
how on earth can lds families, who are younger, more kids, and even more single income, how can they get by month to month?

The bribe/ guilt conundrum makes me sick
+1 !!

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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by A Random Phrase »

Penstress wrote:I think you're a bored nut job.
Actually, Freedomfighter is rather entertaining, especially when someone extremely disagrees with him and he would like to end the fight/contention.

freedomforall
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

A Random Phrase wrote:
Penstress wrote:I think you're a bored nut job.
Actually, Freedomfighter is rather entertaining, especially when someone extremely disagrees with him and he would like to end the fight/contention.
Thank you ARP. I appreciate your kindness.

Do you know the difference between me and Jerry Lewis? Jerry made millions of dollars being a nut job. I'm posting on a forum, receiving no pay at all, and lots of insults. I think that non-Mormons wouldn't be so cruel! :( :((

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AussieOi
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

He did it to entertain people and make them happy.

You on the other hand..

freedomforall
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

AussieOi wrote:He did it to entertain people and make them happy.

You on the other hand..
Yes, but it's not me you see in the mirror each day. I, at least, laugh once in a while. But you have a great following on this forum, and I applaud you.
Last edited by freedomforall on June 26th, 2013, 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by A Random Phrase »

freedomfighter wrote:Do you know the difference between me and Jerry Lewis? Jerry made millions of dollars being a nut job. I'm posting on a forum, receiving no pay at all, and lots of insults. I think that non-Mormons wouldn't be so cruel! :( :((
This is so sad! I vote that we begin paying Freedomfighter for his efforts at nut-jobbing.

(Where's the "passing the hat" smilie?)
AussieOi wrote:He did it to entertain people and make them happy.
Pretty much. :ymparty:

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A Random Phrase
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Post by A Random Phrase »

AussieOi wrote:He did it to entertain people and make them happy.

You on the other hand..

I believe Aussie was on your side in this one Freedomfighter.

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AussieOi
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

freedomfighter wrote:
AussieOi wrote:He did it to entertain people and make them happy.

You on the other hand..
Yes, but it's not me you see in the mirror each day. I, at least, laugh once in a while. But you have a great following on this forum, and I applaud you.

I have no idea why anyone would follow me or listen to half the dribble that eminates from my fingers.

And considering rhat I think I've gone over the top and flipped now , I expect those who buy into what I post even fewer.

But one thing that's legitimate, is that we are being boned into paying the full 10%.

Here is a question.

Should an apostle be the kind of person who owns a few houses?

Its an interesting thought. How much is enough, why cant they accumulate wealth in life, vs how does a person come to own 3 homes (in Utah, not considering other states).

I mean you could be an only child and inherit them from your parents, for instance.

Or get cancer and an insurance payout perhaps.

A house can be a good investment.

How Many do you think Paul, and the original apostles had?

What is "too much"?

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