Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after all

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
Locked
User avatar
ithink
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3206
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by ithink »

freedomfighter wrote:Are these scriptures "milk" or "meat?"

Doctrine and Covenants 1:38
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

3 Nephi 12:48
48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.


John 17:21
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Isaiah 52:8
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.

Mosiah 4:27
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.


How do we become perfect? Is it only a suggestion?
How and what is seeing eye to eye? Do people think alike, or bicker over doctrine, even the "meat?" Why?
How does one become "one" with Christ and the Father? What is being one with them?
Why are we told to feast upon the word? Can we speak like angels by the power of the Holy Ghost?
What does "run faster" imply? What prize?

Additional questions:

How do we gain faith?
How is hope derived?
What is it we shall hope for?

If members of the church cannot, or will not learn to live the gospel, to gain faith and hope, to feast upon the word, to strive to see eye to eye with God, to become one with Deity, then why would they want to go to the Celestial Kingdom? God's house is a house of order, not chaos and confusion. And speaking of becoming one with Christ, here is another aspect I find interesting. Is it milk or meat?:

Doctrine and Covenants 132:18
18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
Those scriptures are not milk or meat. It is behavior and attitude that is the indicator of whether a person is at the milk or the meat level. A milker sees the outward appearance. A meater cares not one whit to that stuff. A milker reads the scriptures every day, while a meater ponders in his heart great words from any author anywhere. A milker insists on authority, while a meater allows that milker to keep thinking he's got it, because if he can't see it, he never will no matter how it is show to him.

As a person progresses, things get much simpler, not more complicated. The great secret and the hidden mystery, is that there is no mystery. The two great commandments teach you that.

So I ask: who told you you ought to become perfect and in what way? Who told you to measure your works? The first verse you quote is false doctrine to a true God, or true doctrine to a fallible and changeable god. The rest which allude to being one are referring to being one, but not one with each other, but with yourself. Seeing eye to eye does not mean I agree with you, it means I am happy for you whatever you believe with one caveat: that you be fully convinced in your mind that you are right, and that you are not borrowing someone else's ideals. That advice is from Romans 14. It means I do not judge you, neither do I have contempt for you. Now, your brain contains 3 main parts. You need to harmonize all those because through them the real you is manifest. You need to be comfortable in your own skin, with your own talents, tastes, personality, and preferences. Those cannot be dictated to you or abnormally modified externally by any cult, church, or creed: they are as inborn as whether you are right or left handed. Your realization of your full capacity in every way is how you become "one", your own literal "I Am", not some beardless and bastardized clone with the same haircut, shirt, tie, skirt length, makeup, and tasteless uniformity that man needs to measure faith and obedience through conformity.

User avatar
ithink
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3206
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by ithink »

When asked if one is a full tithe payer, one should oneself why one is being asked that. Think about it.

As for church history, it is quite important, but if you judge it not to be, then not only does it not matter, but neither then does it's descendant which is the modern church, and you are free to come and go as you please.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by Thinker »

Ithink,
I appreciate your comments - particularly the previous to last post.

Sometimes it does feel more complicated, the more I consider - it's a paradox - because in some ways it's also simpler.
It's a challenge to consider where others are coming from, which I think is the responsibility for anyone who may have moved on from "milk."
Personally, I am often impatient and want them to see things how I see it, now.
It can be lonely - with greater realization comes a greater realization of differences and less illusional connection in giving up one's identity to belong to a group.

It's a tough balance in loving ourselves & others... doing what's best... which involves both accepting where we are and striving for better.

buffalo_girl
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7017

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by buffalo_girl »

BTW, Solomon had seven hundred wives.

Yeah, and the one gift he requested from the Lord - WISDOM - which he had in abundance as a young man left him as a result of his 'excesses'. He died a senile old man.

User avatar
drjme
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1270
Location: Middle Earth

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by drjme »

buffalo_girl wrote:
BTW, Solomon had seven hundred wives.

Yeah, and the one gift he requested from the Lord - WISDOM - which he had in abundance as a young man left him as a result of his 'excesses'. He died a senile old man.
yep, 'the Law' states kings shall not have too many wives. I think seven hundred wives and then concubines is too much.
16 The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the Lord has told you, “You are not to go back that way again.” 17 He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray.

jo1952
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1699

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by jo1952 »

ithink wrote:
freedomfighter wrote:Are these scriptures "milk" or "meat?"

Doctrine and Covenants 1:38
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

3 Nephi 12:48
48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.


John 17:21
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Isaiah 52:8
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.

Mosiah 4:27
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.


How do we become perfect? Is it only a suggestion?
How and what is seeing eye to eye? Do people think alike, or bicker over doctrine, even the "meat?" Why?
How does one become "one" with Christ and the Father? What is being one with them?
Why are we told to feast upon the word? Can we speak like angels by the power of the Holy Ghost?
What does "run faster" imply? What prize?

Additional questions:

How do we gain faith?
How is hope derived?
What is it we shall hope for?

If members of the church cannot, or will not learn to live the gospel, to gain faith and hope, to feast upon the word, to strive to see eye to eye with God, to become one with Deity, then why would they want to go to the Celestial Kingdom? God's house is a house of order, not chaos and confusion. And speaking of becoming one with Christ, here is another aspect I find interesting. Is it milk or meat?:

Doctrine and Covenants 132:18
18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
Those scriptures are not milk or meat. It is behavior and attitude that is the indicator of whether a person is at the milk or the meat level. A milker sees the outward appearance. A meater cares not one whit to that stuff. A milker reads the scriptures every day, while a meater ponders in his heart great words from any author anywhere. A milker insists on authority, while a meater allows that milker to keep thinking he's got it, because if he can't see it, he never will no matter how it is show to him.

As a person progresses, things get much simpler, not more complicated. The great secret and the hidden mystery, is that there is no mystery. The two great commandments teach you that.

So I ask: who told you you ought to become perfect and in what way? Who told you to measure your works? The first verse you quote is false doctrine to a true God, or true doctrine to a fallible and changeable god. The rest which allude to being one are referring to being one, but not one with each other, but with yourself. Seeing eye to eye does not mean I agree with you, it means I am happy for you whatever you believe with one caveat: that you be fully convinced in your mind that you are right, and that you are not borrowing someone else's ideals. That advice is from Romans 14. It means I do not judge you, neither do I have contempt for you. Now, your brain contains 3 main parts. You need to harmonize all those because through them the real you is manifest. You need to be comfortable in your own skin, with your own talents, tastes, personality, and preferences. Those cannot be dictated to you or abnormally modified externally by any cult, church, or creed: they are as inborn as whether you are right or left handed. Your realization of your full capacity in every way is how you become "one", your own literal "I Am", not some beardless and bastardized clone with the same haircut, shirt, tie, skirt length, makeup, and tasteless uniformity that man needs to measure faith and obedience through conformity.
Enjoyed your post, ithink. The verses themselves are not the determining factor of milk vs meat. It is our point in our journey which determines whether we are seeing and/or hearing the milk message vs the meat message. I have learned that it isn't even that critical to have the "correct" translated version of scripture. It is through the Holy Spirit that we are able to receive the message for which we are ready. We can find truth anywhere; we just need to be ready to bear it. Otherwise, we will not see or hear it except as in accordance to where we are. Within the very same verses, the milk understanding will be had by the individual ready for the milk; meat understanding will be had by the individual ready for the meat. Even then, there can be continuing levels of understandings; it is a progression.

buffalo_girl
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7017

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by buffalo_girl »

As for Joseph Smith, he was the calf that sucked 3 cows. He was no stupid uneducated farmboy, but a brilliant mind and an original thinker at that but with limited resources which is belied in the number of mistakes he made, which are legion, particularly with all of the "translations" he engaged in. Modern scholarship proves that to us. Oaks has admitted as much. Smith was, IMHO, a religious prodigy quite capable of producing the Book of Mormon. In fact, he said so himself, when he published the original BoM and ascribed it's authorship to himself: Joseph Smith, and nobody else, with no mention of translation whatsoever.

A friend of mine at BYU used that identical phrase (he was the calf that sucked 3 cows) when she became disenchanted with 'Mormonism'. It must be a common turn of phrase in describing Joseph's capacity for attaining knowledge of all kinds, as you term him, 'a religious prodigy'.

Aleister Crowley - although, of course, he never knew him - greatly admired Joseph Smith's powers. So...when described as 'a religious prodigy' one must decide upon which end of the spectrum Joseph acted. He seems to be much admired at either end.

My own conviction of Joseph Smith's 'Work' is best expressed by the 'wife of his youth' who saw the whole thing through from the reception of the plates at the Hill Cumorah to Joseph's final days as a hunted man. If anyone in the world had more reason to dismiss the entire experience as fiction, Emma Hale Smith would have been the one to declare it! Although offered a place amongst one of the Apostle's plural wives, she deplored and renounced polygamy, remarrying outside 'the church'.

Why would a 40-year-old woman with another 35 years ahead of her choose to remain in Nauvoo to care for her mother-in-law, her children, to remain near a few others who had been 'broken' by an onslaught of emotional, physical & spiritual trauma, and then marry a respected businessman/dreamer so unlike Joseph? I believe her wounds were very deep. Nonetheless, here is a portion of the witness she shared with her son, Joseph Jr. III and her husband, Lewis C. Bidamon, shortly before her death.

Question. What of the truth of Mormonism?

Answer. I know Mormonism to be the truth; and believe the Church to have been established by divine direction. I have complete faith in it. In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us.

Question. Had he not a book or manuscript from which he read, or dictated to you?

Answer. He had neither manuscript nor book to read from.

Question. Could he not have had, and you not know it?

Answer. If he had had anything of the kind he could not have concealed it from me.

Question. Are you sure that he had the plates at the time you were writing for him?

Answer. The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen tablecloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I once felt of the plates, as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book.

Question. Where did father and Oliver Cowdery write?

Answer. Oliver Cowdery and your father wrote in the room where I was at work.

Question. Could not father have dictated the Book of Mormon to you, Oliver Cowdery and the others who wrote for him, after having first written it, or having first read it out of some book?

Answer. Joseph Smith [and for the first time she used his name direct, having usually used the words, "your father" or "my husband"] could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter, let alone dictate a book like the Book of Mormon. And, though I was an active participant in the scenes that transpired, and was present during the translation of the plates, and had cognizance of things as they transpired, it is marvelous to me, "a marvel and a wonder," as much so as to anyone else.

Question. I should suppose that you would have uncovered the plates and examined them?

Answer. I did not attempt to handle the plates, other than I have told you, nor uncover them to look at them. I was satisfied that it was the work of God, and therefore did not feel it to be necessary to do so;

Major Bidamon here suggested: Did Mr. Smith forbid your examining the plates?

Answer. I do not think he did. I knew that he had them, and was not specially curious about them. I moved them from place to place on the table, as it was necessary in doing my work.

Question. Mother, what is your belief about the authenticity, or origin, of the Book of Mormon?

Answer. My belief is that the Book of Mormon is of divine authenticity - I have not the slightest doubt of it. I am satisfied that no man could have dictated the writing of the manuscripts unless he was inspired; for, when acting as his scribe, your father would dictate to me hour after hour; and when returning after meals, or after interruptions, he could at once begin where he had left off, without either seeing the manuscript or having any portion of it read to him. This was a usual thing for him to do. It would have been improbable that a learned man could do this; and, for one so ignorant and unlearned as he was, it was simply impossible.

References:
Emma Smith - Last Testimony of Emma Smith 1879 Q&A between Emma and Joseph Smith III, The Saints' Herald 26 (Oct 1879)
Letter of Lewis C. Bidamon to Emma Smith dated 11 January 1847, (Department of History, Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Independence, Missouri.)

User avatar
ithink
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3206
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by ithink »

Thinker wrote:Ithink,
I appreciate your comments - particularly the previous to last post.

Sometimes it does feel more complicated, the more I consider - it's a paradox - because in some ways it's also simpler.
It's a challenge to consider where others are coming from, which I think is the responsibility for anyone who may have moved on from "milk."
Personally, I am often impatient and want them to see things how I see it, now.
It can be lonely - with greater realization comes a greater realization of differences and less illusional connection in giving up one's identity to belong to a group.

It's a tough balance in loving ourselves & others... doing what's best... which involves both accepting where we are and striving for better.
I agree, and it is refreshing and fulfilling when two people see eye to eye -- not because they are members of the same organization, or because they think alike, but simply because there is peace between them. Peace brother.

User avatar
ithink
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3206
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by ithink »

jo1952 wrote:Enjoyed your post, ithink. The verses themselves are not the determining factor of milk vs meat. It is our point in our journey which determines whether we are seeing and/or hearing the milk message vs the meat message. I have learned that it isn't even that critical to have the "correct" translated version of scripture. It is through the Holy Spirit that we are able to receive the message for which we are ready. We can find truth anywhere; we just need to be ready to bear it. Otherwise, we will not see or hear it except as in accordance to where we are. Within the very same verses, the milk understanding will be had by the individual ready for the milk; meat understanding will be had by the individual ready for the meat. Even then, there can be continuing levels of understandings; it is a progression.
I enjoyed yours also. Again though, I don't think the milk / meat paradigm is about truth: it is about behavior. You call it a journey, that is what I see too, but full stop there with no room for any further corruption, or more gently, interpretation of what that means.

buffalo_girl
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7017

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by buffalo_girl »

16 The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the Lord has told you, “You are not to go back that way again."

I DO understand the temptation there! The Egyptian Arabian horses are 2nd only to the Andalusian horses of Iberia. Both breeds were war horses used in close combat.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

ithink wrote:
freedomfighter wrote:Are these scriptures "milk" or "meat?"

Doctrine and Covenants 1:38
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

3 Nephi 12:48
48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.


John 17:21
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Isaiah 52:8
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.

Mosiah 4:27
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.


How do we become perfect? Is it only a suggestion?
How and what is seeing eye to eye? Do people think alike, or bicker over doctrine, even the "meat?" Why?
How does one become "one" with Christ and the Father? What is being one with them?
Why are we told to feast upon the word? Can we speak like angels by the power of the Holy Ghost?
What does "run faster" imply? What prize?

Additional questions:

How do we gain faith?
How is hope derived?
What is it we shall hope for?

If members of the church cannot, or will not learn to live the gospel, to gain faith and hope, to feast upon the word, to strive to see eye to eye with God, to become one with Deity, then why would they want to go to the Celestial Kingdom? God's house is a house of order, not chaos and confusion. And speaking of becoming one with Christ, here is another aspect I find interesting. Is it milk or meat?:

Doctrine and Covenants 132:18
18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
Those scriptures are not milk or meat. It is behavior and attitude that is the indicator of whether a person is at the milk or the meat level. A milker sees the outward appearance. A meater cares not one whit to that stuff. A milker reads the scriptures every day, while a meater ponders in his heart great words from any author anywhere. A milker insists on authority, while a meater allows that milker to keep thinking he's got it, because if he can't see it, he never will no matter how it is show to him.

As a person progresses, things get much simpler, not more complicated. The great secret and the hidden mystery, is that there is no mystery. The two great commandments teach you that.

So I ask: who told you you ought to become perfect and in what way? Who told you to measure your works? The first verse you quote is false doctrine to a true God, or true doctrine to a fallible and changeable god. The rest which allude to being one are referring to being one, but not one with each other, but with yourself. Seeing eye to eye does not mean I agree with you, it means I am happy for you whatever you believe with one caveat: that you be fully convinced in your mind that you are right, and that you are not borrowing someone else's ideals. That advice is from Romans 14. It means I do not judge you, neither do I have contempt for you. Now, your brain contains 3 main parts. You need to harmonize all those because through them the real you is manifest. You need to be comfortable in your own skin, with your own talents, tastes, personality, and preferences. Those cannot be dictated to you or abnormally modified externally by any cult, church, or creed: they are as inborn as whether you are right or left handed. Your realization of your full capacity in every way is how you become "one", your own literal "I Am", not some beardless and bastardized clone with the same haircut, shirt, tie, skirt length, makeup, and tasteless uniformity that man needs to measure faith and obedience through conformity.
I noticed that you aptly skipped over much of my post. I asked how we can see eye to eye with God, not each other. Even two imbeciles can see eye to eye. I asked about how to obtain faith, hope and becoming one with Deity. I further ask how a person can have the image of Christ in their countenance?
I also asked why anyone would want to go to the Celestial kingdom if they do not intend on gaining all the attributes of a being that is perfect as directed in the bible.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does perfection come by wishing, or by application of conduct methods we learn in scripture?

How can authors of other books teach us what Christ teaches us in scripture? Why would anyone allow anyone else but Christ do the teaching? 2 Nephi 32:3

There are treasures of knowledge within the pages of scripture. I detect a note of disdain for some scripture in your words. Is this true?

A slacker only does enough to get by, perhaps even using church as a social group to meet with each Sunday.
A milker may move ahead or stay stagnant for a while, but has the interest in learning.
A meater learns what Christ expects of us and does the best they can do to achieve it, line upon line, precept upon precept, until they learn all the mysteries of God in full.

Alma 12:10
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

A slacker may never reach that point. A milker, turned into a meater will eventually get there. A meater is closer to having the image of Christ in their countenance through study and application of the attributes of Christ in their life. Christ is the only way to exaltation, he is the narrow gate by which we can learn perfection. Christ is our Savior, our redeemer...and we must believe that he can actually save us.
A meater will seek to know how Christ does this and strives to follow his ways.

User avatar
AussieOi
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6137
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

She did stay with her own family who wanted nothing to do with those who went west.

and then married a Methodist minister.

To bring this back to topic, (please can we take this milk /meat discussion elsewhere), she inherited a lot of debt when her husband died, and probably a lot of women and girls lobbed on her doorstep asking her what next?

She is an amazing story. How different our church history would have been if BY wasn't such a strong (?) Leader.

Tithing. I wonder if they will ever get wind of how toxic it is when receipts fall, and revise it with a new revelation?

It would be very popular.

100% of 10% of surplus bringing in more money than 25% of 10% of gross, and only a few new converts every year.

I wonder if tithing will be the first rung on the lds ladder to go when we become more popularist?

buffalo_girl
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7017

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by buffalo_girl »

Did Joseph Smith teach his own doctrine or did he teach the Doctrine of Christ?

Ultimately, that is the question each of us must answer. If a person can come closer to Christ based solely on the Bible then 'follow Christ in Peace' according to that record.

3Nephi 11
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

41 Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.


3Nephi 18
5 And when the multitude had eaten and were filled, he said unto the disciples: Behold there shall one be ordained among you, and to him will I give power that he shall break bread and bless it and give it unto the people of my church, unto all those who shall believe and be baptized in my name.

6 And this shall ye always observe to do, even as I have done, even as I have broken bread and blessed it and given it unto you.

7 And this shall ye do in remembrance of my body, which I have shown unto you. And it shall be a testimony unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.

8 And it came to pass that when he said these words, he commanded his disciples that they should take of the wine of the cup and drink of it, and that they should also give unto the multitude that they might drink of it.

9 And it came to pass that they did so, and did drink of it and were filled; and they gave unto the multitude, and they did drink, and they were filled.

10 And when the disciples had done this, Jesus said unto them: Blessed are ye for this thing which ye have done, for this is fulfilling my commandments, and this doth witness unto the Father that ye are willing to do that which I have commanded you

11 And this shall ye always do to those who repent and are baptized in my name; and ye shall do it in remembrance of my blood, which I have shed for you, that ye may witness unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.

12 And I give unto you a commandment that ye shall do these things. And if ye shall always do these things blessed are ye, for ye are built upon my rock.

13 But whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation; and when the rain descends, and the floods come, and the winds blow, and beat upon them, they shall fall, and the gates of hell are ready open to receive them.


3Nephi 27
4 And the Lord said unto them: Verily, verily, I say unto you, why is it that the people should murmur and dispute because of this thing

5 Have they not read the scriptures, which say ye must take upon you the name of Christ, which is my name? For by this name shall ye be called at the last day;

6 And whoso taketh upon him my name, and endureth to the end, the same shall be saved at the last day.

7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.


If Joseph Smith made up the above passages, WHAT was his motive? According to the information you have about Joseph, these words condemn him.

WHY fiddle around with all these rules and commandments about being honest, true, benevolent, chaste, doing good, etc.?

He could have just as well written "The Diary of a Drug Fiend", and told everyone "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole of the LAW". His followers would DO whatever they felt like doing, merge with the descendants of Cain and Babylon and compound the mayhem into utter Hell!

In all actuality, our Salvation has next to nothing to do with Joseph Smith.

A person is either ignorant of Christ's role in his/her Eternal Salvation - in which case - one is judged according to that limited knowledge

or

a person has chosen to come unto Christ, has acknowledged Him as the Savior, become as little child, has repented, been baptized, taken upon him/herself His name, become again & again & again 'as a little child', learned of Him, and did one's dedicated/consecrated level best to DO Christ's Work on Earth by following His example.

or

I guess, deny Christ as the Savior, Redeemer, Lamb of God, and The Messiah.

buffalo_girl
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7017

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by buffalo_girl »

Sorry, Aussie!

I'll go with the Doctrine & Covenants 119 according to JS revelation and 2Corinthians 8.

User avatar
AussieOi
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6137
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

Hey that's what I'm saying.
that is, the incorrect money changers doctrine they preach now will be dispensed once they accept tithing receipts are in the toilet, and they will do what they did with blacks and the priesthood, namely, have an official declaration saying, we don't know where it evolved from but tithing yada yada more people now have access to blessings of tithing.
now blessed to be able to give (the church) mote in voluntary offerings.
etc

While it will only be an "official declaration" it will be peddled by members as a revelation like the kiddie missionaries stuff

User avatar
jbalm
The Third Comforter
Posts: 5348

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by jbalm »

I'll take what I can get at this point.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

If people believe there are no blessings associated with tithing...then there isn't.
If people do believe there are blessings, then there are.
It still all boils down to faith. In the first place, let's look at this scripture:

Doctrine and Covenants 64:23
23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

This actually goes beyond a blessing, it is a promise. It is also a promise that if people aren't tithed, then they will be burned. We are left to make a choice as to which of these promises we are willing to accept.

Now, when we read the heading of Section 119 in the D&C we see that the law of tithing was changed because of failure to live it.

Section 119
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Far West, Missouri, July 8, 1838, in answer to his supplication: “O Lord! Show unto thy servants how much thou requirest of the properties of thy people for a tithing.” The law of tithing, as understood today, had not been given to the Church previous to this revelation. The term tithing in the prayer just quoted and in previous revelations (64:23; 85:3; 97:11) had meant not just one-tenth, but all free-will offerings, or contributions, to the Church funds. The Lord had previously given to the Church the law of consecration and stewardship of property, which members (chiefly the leading elders) entered into by a covenant that was to be everlasting. Because of failure on the part of many to abide by this covenant, the Lord withdrew it for a time and gave instead the law of tithing to the whole Church. The Prophet asked the Lord how much of their property He required for sacred purposes. The answer was this revelation.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.
3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.
4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.
5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

So it is surplus property, coupled with interest annually. How this is to be paid is left up to the individual, but keep in mind that those who are not tithed will burn at the last day...so why take chances?

If one pays tithing grudgingly, then it is not counted unto him for righteousness. A willing mind is required, is it not?

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

buffalo_girl wrote:Did Joseph Smith teach his own doctrine or did he teach the Doctrine of Christ?

Ultimately, that is the question each of us must answer. If a person can come closer to Christ based solely on the Bible then 'follow Christ in Peace' according to that record.

3Nephi 11
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

41 Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.


3Nephi 18
5 And when the multitude had eaten and were filled, he said unto the disciples: Behold there shall one be ordained among you, and to him will I give power that he shall break bread and bless it and give it unto the people of my church, unto all those who shall believe and be baptized in my name.

6 And this shall ye always observe to do, even as I have done, even as I have broken bread and blessed it and given it unto you.

7 And this shall ye do in remembrance of my body, which I have shown unto you. And it shall be a testimony unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.

8 And it came to pass that when he said these words, he commanded his disciples that they should take of the wine of the cup and drink of it, and that they should also give unto the multitude that they might drink of it.

9 And it came to pass that they did so, and did drink of it and were filled; and they gave unto the multitude, and they did drink, and they were filled.

10 And when the disciples had done this, Jesus said unto them: Blessed are ye for this thing which ye have done, for this is fulfilling my commandments, and this doth witness unto the Father that ye are willing to do that which I have commanded you

11 And this shall ye always do to those who repent and are baptized in my name; and ye shall do it in remembrance of my blood, which I have shed for you, that ye may witness unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.

12 And I give unto you a commandment that ye shall do these things. And if ye shall always do these things blessed are ye, for ye are built upon my rock.

13 But whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation; and when the rain descends, and the floods come, and the winds blow, and beat upon them, they shall fall, and the gates of hell are ready open to receive them.


3Nephi 27
4 And the Lord said unto them: Verily, verily, I say unto you, why is it that the people should murmur and dispute because of this thing

5 Have they not read the scriptures, which say ye must take upon you the name of Christ, which is my name? For by this name shall ye be called at the last day;

6 And whoso taketh upon him my name, and endureth to the end, the same shall be saved at the last day.

7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.


If Joseph Smith made up the above passages, WHAT was his motive? According to the information you have about Joseph, these words condemn him.

WHY fiddle around with all these rules and commandments about being honest, true, benevolent, chaste, doing good, etc.?

He could have just as well written "The Diary of a Drug Fiend", and told everyone "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole of the LAW". His followers would DO whatever they felt like doing, merge with the descendants of Cain and Babylon and compound the mayhem into utter Hell!

In all actuality, our Salvation has next to nothing to do with Joseph Smith.

A person is either ignorant of Christ's role in his/her Eternal Salvation - in which case - one is judged according to that limited knowledge

or

a person has chosen to come unto Christ, has acknowledged Him as the Savior, become as little child, has repented, been baptized, taken upon him/herself His name, become again & again & again 'as a little child', learned of Him, and did one's dedicated/consecrated level best to DO Christ's Work on Earth by following His example.

or

I guess, deny Christ as the Savior, Redeemer, Lamb of God, and The Messiah.
Great post. :ymapplause:

User avatar
ithink
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3206
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by ithink »

freedomfighter wrote:I noticed that you aptly skipped over much of my post. I asked how we can see eye to eye with God, not each other. Even two imbeciles can see eye to eye. I asked about how to obtain faith, hope and becoming one with Deity. I further ask how a person can have the image of Christ in their countenance?
I also asked why anyone would want to go to the Celestial kingdom if they do not intend on gaining all the attributes of a being that is perfect as directed in the bible.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does perfection come by wishing, or by application of conduct methods we learn in scripture?

How can authors of other books teach us what Christ teaches us in scripture? Why would anyone allow anyone else but Christ do the teaching? 2 Nephi 32:3

There are treasures of knowledge within the pages of scripture. I detect a note of disdain for some scripture in your words. Is this true?

A slacker only does enough to get by, perhaps even using church as a social group to meet with each Sunday.
A milker may move ahead or stay stagnant for a while, but has the interest in learning.
A meater learns what Christ expects of us and does the best they can do to achieve it, line upon line, precept upon precept, until they learn all the mysteries of God in full.

Alma 12:10
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

A slacker may never reach that point. A milker, turned into a meater will eventually get there. A meater is closer to having the image of Christ in their countenance through study and application of the attributes of Christ in their life. Christ is the only way to exaltation, he is the narrow gate by which we can learn perfection. Christ is our Savior, our redeemer...and we must believe that he can actually save us.
A meater will seek to know how Christ does this and strives to follow his ways.
Of course I skipped over some of your post. I guess I didn't see a need to comment on everything you wrote as I don't have an opinion on everything, and will not necessarily comment on things I don't agree with. That is because either I am too lazy, or I feel a need to overlook such things in order to see eye to eye with you.

User avatar
ithink
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3206
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by ithink »

buffalo_girl wrote:Did Joseph Smith teach his own doctrine or did he teach the Doctrine of Christ?

Ultimately, that is the question each of us must answer. If a person can come closer to Christ based solely on the Bible then 'follow Christ in Peace' according to that record.

3Nephi 11
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine,
I dunno, whose doctrine is it to introduce baptism in the BoM centuries before it existed anywhere -- including the Americas? That alone is Joseph's biggest oops in that book.

User avatar
ithink
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3206
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by ithink »

AussieOi wrote:Hey that's what I'm saying.
that is, the incorrect money changers doctrine they preach now will be dispensed once they accept tithing receipts are in the toilet, and they will do what they did with blacks and the priesthood, namely, have an official declaration saying, we don't know where it evolved from but tithing yada yada more people now have access to blessings of tithing.
now blessed to be able to give (the church) mote in voluntary offerings.
etc

While it will only be an "official declaration" it will be peddled by members as a revelation like the kiddie missionaries stuff
They don't need a revelation when they already have the General Handbook of Instructions, which trumps the scriptures. Besides, if they did get a real revelation, it wouldn't be very kind to the way tithing is being administered, would it?

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

ithink wrote:
freedomfighter wrote:I noticed that you aptly skipped over much of my post. I asked how we can see eye to eye with God, not each other. Even two imbeciles can see eye to eye. I asked about how to obtain faith, hope and becoming one with Deity. I further ask how a person can have the image of Christ in their countenance?
I also asked why anyone would want to go to the Celestial kingdom if they do not intend on gaining all the attributes of a being that is perfect as directed in the bible.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does perfection come by wishing, or by application of conduct methods we learn in scripture?

How can authors of other books teach us what Christ teaches us in scripture? Why would anyone allow anyone else but Christ do the teaching? 2 Nephi 32:3

There are treasures of knowledge within the pages of scripture. I detect a note of disdain for some scripture in your words. Is this true?

A slacker only does enough to get by, perhaps even using church as a social group to meet with each Sunday.
A milker may move ahead or stay stagnant for a while, but has the interest in learning.
A meater learns what Christ expects of us and does the best they can do to achieve it, line upon line, precept upon precept, until they learn all the mysteries of God in full.

Alma 12:10
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

A slacker may never reach that point. A milker, turned into a meater will eventually get there. A meater is closer to having the image of Christ in their countenance through study and application of the attributes of Christ in their life. Christ is the only way to exaltation, he is the narrow gate by which we can learn perfection. Christ is our Savior, our redeemer...and we must believe that he can actually save us.
A meater will seek to know how Christ does this and strives to follow his ways.
Of course I skipped over some of your post. I guess I didn't see a need to comment on everything you wrote as I don't have an opinion on everything, and will not necessarily comment on things I don't agree with. That is because either I am too lazy, or I feel a need to overlook such things in order to see eye to eye with you.
Lots of people don't agree with scripture, because it would cause them to have to learn something. Meaters would already know where I'm coming from and would see eye to eye on it. When the Spirit teaches it teaches everyone the very same thing when they are ready for it. God's word does not change. He can't tell one person one thing and then turn around and tell something completely different to someone else when seeking the same answer. Remember, we learn line upon line, precept upon precept until we can learn all the mysteries of God. And we cannot find answers to the mysteries from other authors that have no clue what they are.

Since you do not agree with my statements, we do not see eye to eye. But this does not matter, it is seeing eye to eye with God that really counts. Therefore, scripture is where we find out how to do that.

Do you ever ponder what God thinks? Do you wonder how he sees is children, whether they are in pain or in the midst of a trial, or having difficulty with repentance. Do you ever wonder what he thinks when his children don't do what is asked of them? Do you ever ponder what it is that he wants us to know, and how many of his children walk by their own light, not really considering what he thinks?

When we can come to a point that we can understand God and what he wants, then we will be close to seeing eye to eye with him. This is what Zion is and will be all about.

We can even speak the mind of the Lord when moved upon by the Holy Ghost, if worthy and want to teach. Every member a missionary, right?

Doctrine and Covenants 68:3-6
3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.
5 Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants.
6 Wherefore, be of good cheer, and do not fear, for I the Lord am with you, and will stand by you; and ye shall bear record of me, even Jesus Christ, that I am the Son of the living God, that I was, that I am, and that I am to come.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

ithink wrote:
buffalo_girl wrote:Did Joseph Smith teach his own doctrine or did he teach the Doctrine of Christ?

Ultimately, that is the question each of us must answer. If a person can come closer to Christ based solely on the Bible then 'follow Christ in Peace' according to that record.

3Nephi 11
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine,
I dunno, whose doctrine is it to introduce baptism in the BoM centuries before it existed anywhere -- including the Americas? That alone is Joseph's biggest oops in that book.

I would say Christ introduced baptism, because it is through him we are saved. Even he was baptized to fulfill all righteousness.

13 ¶Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This is truly meat of the gospel.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

ithink wrote:
AussieOi wrote:Hey that's what I'm saying.
that is, the incorrect money changers doctrine they preach now will be dispensed once they accept tithing receipts are in the toilet, and they will do what they did with blacks and the priesthood, namely, have an official declaration saying, we don't know where it evolved from but tithing yada yada more people now have access to blessings of tithing.
now blessed to be able to give (the church) mote in voluntary offerings.
etc

While it will only be an "official declaration" it will be peddled by members as a revelation like the kiddie missionaries stuff
They don't need a revelation when they already have the General Handbook of Instructions, which trumps the scriptures. Besides, if they did get a real revelation, it wouldn't be very kind to the way tithing is being administered, would it?
Why worry where the money goes? Since I and many others don't want to be burned at the last day, speaking for myself, I don't care where the money goes. I could care less if it is stolen. lost, squandered by the bishopric, or spent to build a mall. I payed it to the Lord and that is what counts. It won't be the bishop or his councilors or anyone else that will do the burning, it will be God, so I pay it to him, through the bishop. What happens after that is not my concern. So what's wrong with that?

There seems to still be a real big issue over how much is fair in paying tithing. Make a decision and then take it to the Lord and seek confirmation that your decision is the right one. Then you won't need pages and pages of repeated conversation that goes nowhere to find an answer that could be given by the Holy Ghost.

Now if you're afraid that you'll be told the choice made was the wrong one, then you'll have to go with a different plan and get that confirmed. All this round and round stuff isn't going anywhere, is it?

Like I said, paying tithing is payed by faith...and so is seeking answers from God.

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart,
and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him,
and he shall direct thy paths.

Proverbs 3:5,6

Don't worry about the handbook. Trust that God will direct you in how much to pay. Then you'll know with a certainty, and will be unshaken by other winds of doctrine. You will know for yourself. Isn't this what you seek?

User avatar
AussieOi
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6137
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

Ff, The post immediately above is just evidence of brain washing.

As for take it to the lord, do you accept 90% of those who read this thread have and got the answer that on surplus is actually his correct law. Does that mean if you are on gross you are wrong?

This isnt how long is a fast. or how long to pray for. This is sheep station stuff. If you can afford food, pay (gross) tithing.
if it means your children go without medicine, pay on Gross.

I don't think we have a right to privately interpret something that is an everlasting law like 119 says it is.

when money causes marriages stress, and breakdown.

I think you must be considerate of that your position is the one which prayed and found an _alternative_method to pay more tithing than he asks....apparently driven by fear that god will burn you.

please don't peddle fear and retribution on this thread.

I have asked those 5 questions which you have been incapable of addressing or answering.

if all you have is fear, you have nothing and misunderstand the gospel.


your post 3 up about god was really good, enjoyed that

Locked