Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after all

[buffalo_girl]

I really felt the following two paragraphs were addressed to my lifetime of experience as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ. There was a time when I became less active because I felt so battered by members of the Church who didn't seem to act the way I knew Christ would.

At one time, I watched my 75 year-old mother grieve when her temple recommend was 'confiscated' by a prideful bishop who didn't want to hear the truth from an old woman. I also saw that young bishop - with a brood of children & a pretty wife - brought to death's door with what the best medical men could NOT diagnose. The Lord makes corrections. Sometimes those corrections come in ways never imagined.

I have found it best to assume contradiction between Christ's LAW and the behaviors & actions of human beings who 'should know better' is the result of IGNORANCE. It could be either my ignorance or theirs.

I can only pray that when my behaviors & actions conflict with Christ's LAW, those within the Church with whom I associate will treat me with the kind hope that I will grasp the Truth before too long and before the Lord must make a serious correction.

Elder Jeffrey Holland
Brothers and sisters, this is a divine work in process, with the manifestations and blessings of it abounding in every direction, so please don’t hyperventilate if from time to time issues arise that need to be examined, understood, and resolved. They do and they will. In this Church, what we know will always trump what we do not know. And remember, in this world, everyone is to walk by faith.

So be kind regarding human frailty—your own as well as that of those who serve with you in a Church led by volunteer, mortal men and women. Except in the case of His only perfect Begotten Son, imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with. That must be terribly frustrating to Him, but He deals with it. So should we. And when you see imperfection, remember that the limitation is not in the divinity of the work.

[Thinker]

I have found it best to assume contradiction between Christ's LAW and the behaviors & actions of human beings who 'should know better' is the result of IGNORANCE. It could be either my ignorance or theirs.

Very profound.
Sometimes I find it dificult to embrace the paradox that we are perfectly imperfect.

[freedomforall]

Yes,but, Freedomfighter...you're quoting a couple of Apostles/prophets of God.

You mean being disengenous about what Malachi is really about to members and making them feel guilty?
or consecretion prophets and apostles?
The 2% ones?
The 10% of surplus ones
Or the 10% of net ones?
Or the 10% of gross ones, and you pay it to get gross blessings (ironic choice of words)
their words were canonised I'm assuming?


:p

Maybe I should have quoted some agnostics points of view.

Agnostics like Jesus: 119?
You know, his standing law, for those 3 specific reasons.






They seem to go farther. But then precepts of men sound better and aren't so hard to do, aren't they?

actually the precepts of men to make you pay 10% of your gross in order to receive temple blessings are pretty hard. Actually it's your salvation that is in question.


Do people hang on to the iron rod or attempt to justify not doing so?

you're kidding me right?
you want to come and play the Iron rod line, but you refuse to accept the simplicity of 119, instead rely on statements of men that changed to suit the period and time and debt burden of the church
that?
its not attempting to justify anything, because we've see in these 13 pages that thoe who pull the 10% gross line have NOTHING beyond "i want to pay it this way and people should be allowed to pay it however they want"
actually, i'll start telling people its 10% of this and next years gross, paid this year
why not.
will a man rob god?
does he lack faith god will not open the windows of heaven and pour out a rich blessing
actually i feel ill even typing that because i know it has nothing to do with members and tithing.
its about those on the pay roll not giving it back to the people
Iron rod is Sec 199, not the handbook of corelation (department)....[interpretation] of ... I kidding you? Depends on your point of view.

Do people believe the word of God or make up stuff and pass it off as scripture, or official church doctrine?

hang on, i have clearly misread this post because what i am reading supports my position and is actually saying that anything other than 10% on surplus is ignoring the word of god
this seriously couldnt be trying to use that sentence to say 119 is wrong and the handbook interpretation is correct
that is 1984 stuff, its newspeak. its so pathetic its laughable
i mean do you really believe that as you type that?
is this like the best you have? There's a movie in which there is a line that goes like this "You can't handle the truth!"
hoping some late to the party will read your sentence and thing because it is heavily loaded with stern sounding stuff that its the correct position?
i mean thats kids stuff. they call it a non sequitur.means "does not follow"

"we all know that people who love their children and wan them to be saved pay their tithing on gross"
come on, try harder
and dont insult the limited intelligence i do have.
not 13 pages into this thread

There's a saying about leading a horse to water but not being able to make it drink. Well, the rest of the story is that the horse died...because it was too stubborn and defiant to drink.

It really makes no difference what I believe, I pay tithing and I'm very happy. It seems to me you have a problem. I've already told you to pay what makes you happy. What's wrong with that?

Limited intelligence? Oh, is that what you call it? Sorry, my intent is not to insult a brain that is limited in willingness and understanding nor able to accept anything but its own limited view. However, It reminds me of a horse wearing blinders.

Members on this forum that have a testimony of tithing don't need thirteen pages to say it. They need thirteen pages to get you to understand. Big difference.

Do people really believe in the church and the Lord's gospel, or keep trying to find fault so they have reason to bicker?

yeah well im sure they said that when aaron was doing his calf "do people really thing god would let aaron do that if he was wrong and moses was up there?
adam god
hoffman, city creek
again, what, 13 pages and thats the best the entire argument has?
so we have to accept everything because the church was restored
like, you know, denying blacks the priesthood.
and stuff
man, glad im not in that church
thats called a cult and massive brainwashing

..you have no clue as to why the blacks were kept from having the priesthood do you? Sad.
What church are you in?
Why are you, within thirteen pages attempting to brainwash the rest of us into paying tithing your way, or ridiculing us for the way believe is right? How ironic! The way we pay tithing rubs you the wrong way like a festering sore.

God knows our heart, so instead of looking for ways to cut down a church, why not just quit and go to a different church.

sigh here we are again
50 times and counting
go join another church if you dont like it.
im sure they said that to those saying "hang on, are you sure we should be sticking gold on this calf thing?

"god knows our heat, so sod off". yeah, you really are a quality piece of work
the christian inside of you overwhelms me. Well I know just what to say in order to get responses like this, now don't I?

To be more precise, join a church that doesn't make you so darn mad. Now I know you said you are angry. Are you going to deny it now?

Lots of people have done this and have claimed they are free...even bishops.

[jbalm]

Salvation is damn expensive.

Oh, and blacks were denied the priesthood because Brigham Young was a [MODERATOR EDIT].

It is plain as day for those with eyes to see, or ears to hear, or whatever.

[freedomforall]

Salvation is damn expensive.

Oh, and blacks were denied the priesthood because Brigham Young was a...

Sorry you feel that way. But when one finally comes to realize that we own nothing--nothing because we die at some point and then where do all these possessions go? We owe God praise even for the air we breathe. Gen. 2:7

You know the rules. Part to others your substance by giving to the poor and needy. Pay 10% to the Lord from all you possess if you want to separate everything out and put a value on every single item you think you own. Or simplify it and pay 10% on your income...afterall, it was most likely money you earned that bought everything you have.

Salvation may be expensive but hell is free. All one simply has to do is say "God, I want no part of your kingdom because you ask more than I am willing to part with".

We get what we ask and strive for if we have hope, faith and obedience. Obedience comes from abasing ourselves and realizing we are no better than the dust of the earth, from which we were formed.

Luke 18:14
14 ...every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

[jbalm]

Sorry FF, but the longer this discussion continues, the more it becomes clear that paying 10% of your gross to a corp. that serves itself much more than it serves others does not equate to paying 10% to the Lord. And it most certainly does not equate to imparting of your substance to the poor and needy.

Your faith promoting tales about those who have received some great unspecified blessing that directly resulted from paying more tithing than they could afford to are nice for you, I guess. But they are completely unpersuasive to me. Would you like to know why? You probably don't, but I'll tell you anyway. Because I've never seen anything of the sort. Not one that is even close to verifiable anyway. But what I have seen is many full tithe payers who have come to my office to file bankruptcy. And most of those owed their banruptcy, in part, to their tithing before all else attitude. They paid tithing first, and went into debt to pay living expenses. I've run their numbers myself, and listened to them tell me how they got into their predicaments. These aren't just stories about the effects of tithing that may or may not be a coincidence.

As a side note to the last paragraph, these folks usually felt justified in stiffing their creditors because, hey, at least they paid tithing on their gross. Surely God is okay if some doctor, lawyer, accountant, store owner, or other creditor takes it in the shorts, because he got His cut off the top. Right?

Wrong!

I mean look at what you have just written! You are saying that there is a monetary price for salvation. Does that not sound the least bit repulsive to you? If not, then with all due respect, you are complicit in the worst kind of perversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ. You are pushing the same point of view as the slimiest TV evangelists who get rich by bilking old people out of their life savings by telling them they will go to hell if they don't pay up. It is shameful.

You'd think that if ponying up the dough was so essential to salvation, tithing would be much more emphasized in the BOM, or the NT (yes, I'm aware that the OT pushes it more, along with genocide, incest and polygamy - have at it if that kind of thing floats your boat). But no, all Christ (remember Him, the guy we claim our religion is based upon?) talks about is mundane crap like charity, love, service to our fellow man, and forgiveness, and all that other stuff that the fiscally enlightened Mantle Sniffers have no time for. He doesn't say "come unto me by paying big bucks to an insitiution, that is nominally mine, because they have been charged with screening all applicants, and the screening process costs money you know. There ain't no free lunch." No, this never comes up when Jesus is talking. In fact, I seem to recall him getting kind of pissed about money changers at the temple. (Yes, I know, that means something totally different, doesn't it. Some biblical scholar - you know the kind that makes a living telling you that what you just read doesn't actually mean what it says - said so.)

I'd like to avoid the ensuing dogpile to the greatest extent possible, so let me address some of the usual stuff in advance:

"But we need buildings and businesses and hotels, and printing presses and computers to build up The Kingdom and and stuff for our "unpaid clergy" like cars and stipends and travel allowances, you damned apostate, so go join some other church."

Bullcrap. Ever spent any time around the Amish? Some of the most humble, devout followers of Christ you will ever see. And they usually have church services in a barn. Point is, you don't need extensive, expensive infrastucture to worship Christ and serve others.

"Well, you should just go join the Amish then, you wolf in sheep's clothing. You hell-bound, ark-steadying, doctrines-of-men spouting piece of satanic filth!"

Bite me. You go join the Amish. You could learn at least as much from them as I could.

"You are going to pay for criticizing the Lord's annointed, you backbiting, backsliding, secret-combination-supporting, spiritual dwarf!"

That's not what I am doing. Learn to read. Then, practice your new reading comprehension skills on the first page of this thread.

As far as I'm concerned, the "10% of gross before food in your children's stomachs" crowd have officially jumped he shark. If those types are the predominant ones in this church these days, then this church is no longer relevant.

No need to reiterate the whole thread, I guess. This is all just pissing into the wind, anyways.

[buffalo_girl]

Well then, jbalm, what do you really mean?

You've hit upon the main points.

I still think each one of us must do some soul searching and a great deal of mighty prayer about this issue.

From what you describe seeing in your profession, it does NOT make sense to blindly do something simply because you think that's how it's supposed to be done.

Between me and the Lord!

[ajax]

Sorry you feel that way...
You know the rules...
Salvation may be expensive...

The end result of the evolution of pure religion into a man's religion.

So it IS easier for a rich mormon to get to heaven than a poor mormon.

[creator]

jbalm, I'm all for the truth, but some of your comments in this thread are not appropriate for this forum.

[freedomforall]

Sorry FF, but the longer this discussion continues, the more it becomes clear that paying 10% of your gross to a corp. that serves itself much more than it serves others does not equate to paying 10% to the Lord. And it most certainly does not equate to imparting of your substance to the poor and needy.

Your faith promoting tales about those who have received some great unspecified blessing that directly resulted from paying more tithing than they could afford to are nice for you, I guess. But they are completely unpersuasive to me. Would you like to know why? You probably don't, but I'll tell you anyway. Because I've never seen anything of the sort. Not one that is even close to verifiable anyway. But what I have seen is many full tithe payers who have come to my office to file bankruptcy. And most of those owed their banruptcy, in part, to their tithing before all else attitude. They paid tithing first, and went into debt to pay living expenses. I've run their numbers myself, and listened to them tell me how they got into their predicaments. These aren't just stories about the effects of tithing that may or may not be a coincidence.

As a side note to the last paragraph, these folks usually felt justified in stiffing their creditors because, hey, at least they paid tithing on their gross. Surely God is okay if some doctor, lawyer, accountant, store owner, or other creditor takes it in the shorts, because he got His cut off the top. Right?

Wrong!

I mean look at what you have just written! You are saying that there is a monetary price for salvation. Does that not sound the least bit repulsive to you? If not, then with all due respect, you are complicit in the worst kind of perversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ. You are pushing the same point of view as the slimiest TV evangelists who get rich by bilking old people out of their life savings by telling them they will go to hell if they don't pay up. It is shameful.

You'd think that if ponying up the dough was so essential to salvation, tithing would be much more emphasized in the BOM, or the NT (yes, I'm aware that the OT pushes it more, along with genocide, incest and polygamy - have at it if that kind of thing floats your boat). But no, all Christ (remember Him, the guy we claim our religion is based upon?) talks about is mundane crap like charity, love, service to our fellow man, and forgiveness, and all that other stuff that the fiscally enlightened Mantle Sniffers have no time for. He doesn't say "come unto me by paying big bucks to an insitiution, that is nominally mine, because they have been charged with screening all applicants, and the screening process costs money you know. There ain't no free lunch." No, this never comes up when Jesus is talking. In fact, I seem to recall him getting kind of pissed about money changers at the temple. (Yes, I know, that means something totally different, doesn't it. Some biblical scholar - you know the kind that makes a living telling you that what you just read doesn't actually mean what it says - said so.)

I'd like to avoid the ensuing dogpile to the greatest extent possible, so let me address some of the usual stuff in advance:

"But we need buildings and businesses and hotels, and printing presses and computers to build up The Kingdom and and stuff for our "unpaid clergy" like cars and stipends and travel allowances, you damned apostate, so go join some other church."

Bullcrap. Ever spent any time around the Amish? Some of the most humble, devout followers of Christ you will ever see. And they usually have church services in a barn. Point is, you don't need extensive, expensive infrastucture to worship Christ and serve others.

"Well, you should just go join the Amish then, you wolf in sheep's clothing. You hell-bound, ark-steadying, doctrines-of-men spouting piece of satanic filth!"

Bite me. You go join the Amish. You could learn at least as much from them as I could.

"You are going to pay for criticizing the Lord's annointed, you backbiting, backsliding, secret-combination-supporting, spiritual dwarf!"

That's not what I am doing. Learn to read. Then, practice your new reading comprehension skills on the first page of this thread.

As far as I'm concerned, the "10% of gross before food in your children's stomachs" crowd have officially jumped he shark. If those types are the predominant ones in this church these days, then this church is no longer relevant.

No need to reiterate the whole thread, I guess. This is all just pissing into the wind, anyways.

Do you feel better now? Like I said, no one will force you into heaven...it's all up to you. I could care less one way or another how you pay tithing or that you may decide to not pay any at all. I'm not afraid to tell you what I know and that I have personally experienced the cleansing power of the Atonement. Nothing you could say, think or do can change that, because it is my salvation in my hands not yours nor your insults, innuendos and theories. This is an LDS doctrine website but your form of communication doesn't reflect it. You sound as though you know something of the gospel, but somewhere along the way a very fearful critter has crawled inside of you and turned you into a form of reprobate by the way you lash out.
It's time to take your questions and concerns to God because that's the only way you'll ever have peace. I and others here are only human like yourself. You can only find peace by seeking God. You and you alone.
I'd rather think that you will take my advice and find peace from Deity, than to have you come back with more slander and prove to others your unwillingness to seek out someone that can save you. No one here can. Unless your whole premise is to argue,

rep•ro•bate (ˈrɛp rəˌbeɪt)

n., adj., v. -bat•ed, -bat•ing. n.
1. a depraved or wicked person.
2. a person who is beyond hope of salvation.
adj.
3. morally depraved; wicked.
4. being beyond hope of salvation.
v.t.
5. to disapprove, condemn, or censure.
6. to exclude from salvation, as for sin.

cen·sure (snshr)
n.
1. An expression of strong disapproval or harsh criticism.
2. An official rebuke, as by a legislature of one of its members.
tr.v. cen·sured, cen·sur·ing, cen·sures

[freedomforall]

Sorry you feel that way...
You know the rules...
Salvation may be expensive...

The end result of the evolution of pure religion into a man's religion.

So it IS easier for a rich mormon to get to heaven than a poor mormon.

All depends on one's attitude. Tithing has nothing to do with being rich or poor, it is how you pay what God requires. Whether rich or poor...if one or the other is humble, meek, lowly of heart, kind, full of charity, honest, and possesses a broken heart and a contrite spirit and doing things with full purpose of heart with real intent...then they will get the prize, which is eternal life.

And all this came from memory, whew!

[ajax]

Sorry you feel that way...
You know the rules...
Salvation may be expensive...

The end result of the evolution of pure religion into a man's religion.

So it IS easier for a rich mormon to get to heaven than a poor mormon.

All depends on one's attitude. That's tue. The poor do have pretty bad attitudes when it comes to the 10% gross interpretation. Tithing has nothing to do with being rich or poor, it is how you pay what God requires. Ah, thank you. D&C 119 (suplus, tithes, interest) Whether rich or poor...if one or the other is humble, meek, lowly of heart, kind, full of charity, honest, and possesses a broken heart and a contrite spirit and doing things with full purpose of heart with real intent...then they will get the prize, which is eternal life. This list didn't include 10% gross tithe payer. Nice job FF. I think you're finally getting it.
And all this came from memory, whew!

[ajax]

jbalm, I'm all for the truth, but some of your comments in this thread are not appropriate for this forum.

Hmmm, I rather liked jbalm's post.

[Rob]

As far as I'm concerned, the "10% of gross before food in your children's stomachs" crowd have officially jumped he shark.

Spot on.

[creator]

jbalm, I'm all for the truth, but some of your comments in this thread are not appropriate for this forum.

Hmmm, I rather liked jbalm's post.

Not saying he's wrong just that his attitude towards the Church is unnecessary. It's entirely possible to teach correctly the Lord's Law of tithing without having such a negative tone against the Church. All is not well in Zion but it's still the Lord's Church.

[freedomforall]

The end result of the evolution of pure religion into a man's religion.

So it IS easier for a rich mormon to get to heaven than a poor mormon.

All depends on one's attitude. That's tue. The poor do have pretty bad attitudes when it comes to the 10% gross interpretation. Tithing has nothing to do with being rich or poor, it is how you pay what God requires. Ah, thank you. D&C 119 (suplus, tithes, interest) Whether rich or poor...if one or the other is humble, meek, lowly of heart, kind, full of charity, honest, and possesses a broken heart and a contrite spirit and doing things with full purpose of heart with real intent...then they will get the prize, which is eternal life. This list didn't include 10% gross tithe payer. Nice job FF. I think you're finally getting it.
And all this came from memory, whew!

What is it you think I didn't get?
I'm thrilled that you finally understand what I know, but I don't need praise for something I've believed and adhered to for over eighteen years, way, way before ever becoming a member of this forum. I simply had a hard time articulating what I know to some people that are/were only interested in arguing. Further I'm not seeking anyone's approval...don't require it. That which I know was learned by going through the school of hard knocks, study, prayer and inspiration. Kind of a different approach isn't it? More people ought to give it a try. And knowing that all good things, including scripture, are spiritually discerned, I'm thankful for the understanding I now have.

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

14
natural man = carnal and devilish
receiveth = teachable
spirit = learning what God knows
know = learn spiritual truths
spiritually = when we learn by the spirit we are being taught by the spirit,
discerned = examined, tried

15
judgeth = examine, try, judge

Mosiah 29:43
43 And now it came to pass that Alma did walk in the ways of the Lord, and he did keep his commandments, and he did judge righteous judgments; and there was continual peace through the land.

John 7:24
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Helaman 14:29
29 And this to the intent that whosoever will believe might be saved, and that whosoever will not believe, a righteous judgment might come upon them; and also if they are condemned they bring upon themselves their own condemnation.

[jbalm]

jbalm, I'm all for the truth, but some of your comments in this thread are not appropriate for this forum.

Hmmm, I rather liked jbalm's post.

Not saying he's wrong just that his attitude towards the Church is unnecessary. It's entirely possible to teach correctly the Lord's Law of tithing without having such a negative tone against the Church. All is not well in Zion but it's still the Lord's Church.

My tone was meant to apply to only that (hopefully small) segment of the membership that tells people that they will go to hell if they don't adopt a certain iterpretation of "doctrine." These Westboro Mormons have caused a lot of harm to some people that I love very much - people who, unlike me, are unable to recognize these authoritarian, religious hobbyists for what they are, and disregard them.

In fact, I just spent the last entire week with one of those loved ones. It was a wonderful, terrible, painful, beautiful, agonizing, uplifting, life-changing time. At the end of it, we both had a much greater, undeniable in fact, testimony of the love that Jesus Christ has for each of us, and his ability and desire to heal our pain.

The healing will be a lifelong process, probably, because I will never be able to shield my loved ones from those who feel obiliged to spout off their own oppressive, hurtful bastardization of the gospel to a fragile soul, and then walk away with a smug air of superiority. Frankly, it sickens me. But I suppose love comes with the obligation to come back and pick up the pieces of a shattered sense of self-worth as often as needed. And I will oblige.

And so I guess I have a problem with these self-appointed "protectors of the true faith." I should have made it more clear as to whom my ire was adressed.

Thank you for the warning. I'll do my best to tone it down from here on.

[jbalm]

Do you feel better now? Like I said, no one will force you into heaven...it's all up to you. I could care less one way or another how you pay tithing or that you may decide to not pay any at all. I'm not afraid to tell you what I know and that I have personally experienced the cleansing power of the Atonement. Nothing you could say, think or do can change that, because it is my salvation in my hands not yours nor your insults, innuendos and theories. This is an LDS doctrine website but your form of communication doesn't reflect it. You sound as though you know something of the gospel, but somewhere along the way a very fearful critter has crawled inside of you and turned you into a form of reprobate by the way you lash out.
It's time to take your questions and concerns to God because that's the only way you'll ever have peace. I and others here are only human like yourself. You can only find peace by seeking God. You and you alone.
I'd rather think that you will take my advice and find peace from Deity, than to have you come back with more slander and prove to others your unwillingness to seek out someone that can save you. No one here can. Unless your whole premise is to argue,

rep•ro•bate (ˈrɛp rəˌbeɪt)

n., adj., v. -bat•ed, -bat•ing. n.
1. a depraved or wicked person.
2. a person who is beyond hope of salvation.
adj.
3. morally depraved; wicked.
4. being beyond hope of salvation.
v.t.
5. to disapprove, condemn, or censure.
6. to exclude from salvation, as for sin.

cen·sure (snshr)
n.
1. An expression of strong disapproval or harsh criticism.
2. An official rebuke, as by a legislature of one of its members.
tr.v. cen·sured, cen·sur·ing, cen·sures

Congratulations. I didn't anticipate being called a reprobate.

I think that you are just trying to push buttons now in your passive aggressive fashion. Pretty ironic coming from the guy crying like a school girl in another thread because of harmful comments about fat people.

I hope we never meet in person, FF. You are very unkind. It is people like you that I want kept far, far away from the people I care about.

[creator]

Thanks for taking the warning so well, especially when it's so easy to over-react to such a thing. I think we probably see eye to eye on many things and I hope we can have charity for those who don't want to grant us the "liberty of thinking and believing as [we] please." (as Joseph Smith said) "It feels so good not to be trammeled".

It is sad when faced with others of our faith (the "self-appointed 'protectors of the true faith'" as you call them) that ignorantly and pridefully hurt others simply for doing what they feel is right and true.

[buffalo_girl]

Jbalm expresses well the feelings many of us have experienced as a result of stinging, authoritarian edicts imposed upon us by members of the Church who are quite plainly, 'out of bounds'.

[jbalm]

Thanks for taking the warning so well, especially when it's so easy to over-react to such a thing. I think we probably see eye to eye on many things and I hope we can have charity for those who don't want to grant us the "liberty of thinking and believing as [we] please." (as Joseph Smith said) "It feels so good not to be trammeled".

It is sad when faced with others of our faith (the "self-appointed 'protectors of the true faith'" as you call them) that ignorantly and pridefully hurt others simply for doing what they feel is right and true.

You are right. Talk about irony. Can't get much more uncharitable than I was in my rant against those I deem uncharitable.

Kind of a catch-22 I created for myself.

[AussieOi]

jbalm, I'm all for the truth, but some of your comments in this thread are not appropriate for this forum.

Hmmm, I rather liked jbalm's post.

Not saying he's wrong just that his attitude towards the Church is unnecessary. It's entirely possible to teach correctly the Lord's Law of tithing without having such a negative tone against the Church. All is not well in Zion but it's still the Lord's Church.

Best post I read in 2013.
If that is negative we are waaaay over the shark

[freedomforall]

Do you feel better now? Like I said, no one will force you into heaven...it's all up to you. I could care less one way or another how you pay tithing or that you may decide to not pay any at all. I'm not afraid to tell you what I know and that I have personally experienced the cleansing power of the Atonement. Nothing you could say, think or do can change that, because it is my salvation in my hands not yours nor your insults, innuendos and theories. This is an LDS doctrine website but your form of communication doesn't reflect it. You sound as though you know something of the gospel, but somewhere along the way a very fearful critter has crawled inside of you and turned you into a form of reprobate by the way you lash out.
It's time to take your questions and concerns to God because that's the only way you'll ever have peace. I and others here are only human like yourself. You can only find peace by seeking God. You and you alone.
I'd rather think that you will take my advice and find peace from Deity, than to have you come back with more slander and prove to others your unwillingness to seek out someone that can save you. No one here can. Unless your whole premise is to argue,

rep•ro•bate (ˈrɛp rəˌbeɪt)

n., adj., v. -bat•ed, -bat•ing. n.
1. a depraved or wicked person.
2. a person who is beyond hope of salvation.
adj.
3. morally depraved; wicked.
4. being beyond hope of salvation.
v.t.
5. to disapprove, condemn, or censure.
6. to exclude from salvation, as for sin.

cen·sure (snshr)
n.
1. An expression of strong disapproval or harsh criticism.
2. An official rebuke, as by a legislature of one of its members.
tr.v. cen·sured, cen·sur·ing, cen·sures

Congratulations. I didn't anticipate being called a reprobate.

I think that you are just trying to push buttons now in your passive aggressive fashion. Pretty ironic coming from the guy crying like a school girl in another thread because of harmful comments about fat people.
Actually, I was being facetious, trying to use reverse psychology. Those statements were intended as a joke. I even PM'd another poster and told them exactly what I just said, if you want to inquire. I tried to be kind, tried to explain my position, but I, like you, don't like my intelligence belittled. I don't like revelation given me torn to shreds by those who only look at God's commandments as hardships to bear in order to gain heaven.
I don't have to dialog anyone about things I know, it was out of concern and a helpful intent that I did so in the first place. If I hurt your feelings, I apologize. That's all I can do.
I used the term reprobate, and then explicitly explained the way it was used. You ignored my explanation and just used the term reprobate, of which has many definitions, to come back at me. That's okay, I just wanted you to know we all can skip over truth and make it appear worse than was intended. As a matter of record, I too, am a form of reprobate at times. It's one of the crosses I bear.

I hope we never meet in person, FF. You are very unkind. It is people like you that I want kept far, far away from the people I care about.

I have no animosity toward you for telling me this, you are entitled to your feelings. May God bless you and yours!

[freedomforall]

Jbalm expresses well the feelings many of us have experienced as a result of stinging, authoritarian edicts imposed upon us by members of the Church who are quite plainly, 'out of bounds'.

This may be one reason some people are offended so easily.

Mark 4:16-19
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

[buffalo_girl]

My former, Melchizedek Priesthood bearing, husband told me I chose to be hurt by his chronic adultery. He hadn't intended to hurt me, so I should not have been hurt.

The expression, "you choose to be offended" is a sorry excuse for bad manners and downright bungling stupidity on the part of many members of Christ's Church.

Like I told my former husband, "If that's the case, then any murderer off the street who violates my home and family to level me with a gun can claim that I 'have chosen to be hurt'."

Mark 4
17...when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

I'm still standing and bearing fruit despite the careless thorns, the deceit, and lusts of others 'who should have known better', so please don't apply that part of the parable to me.