LDS Freedom Forum

Economy Wolfgram...right on schedule
The economic collapse as prophesied by Wolfgram..appears to be right on schedule!

The Wolfgram prophecy was that "in the 3rd year of the second term of the son of George Bush" the economy would collapse. This would happen just before the war and invasion by "hundreds of millions" of foreign troops.

Allan South who had received this blessing where in brother Wolfgram had mentioned the event... and then who had asked brother Wolfgram some details about it. He was very clear on every point.

However, that brings up the question...What does it mean that the economy would collapse? Does it mean the stock market? Does it mean a depression with lots of people out of work? I just don't know, and so I have basically come to the simple conclusion that something bad will happen to the economy in 2008...causing major problems.

A bad economy generally translates sooner or later into a lot of people out of work. this fits exactly with the warnings by the leaders of the Church, and especially President Hinckley (1998) about getting out of debt and preparing for hard times.

I have been expecting something or some things to happen to the economy. Well, there have been several things that have, or should have greatly affected the economy...the biggest cutting interest rates by the Feds. Also, the upswing in oil prices( $109.00 Barrel) and other prices.

During the last couple of years, one of the few things that has kept the economy going is the terrific housing boom. Though the speculation on property has been tremendous during the last few years. Many experts have predicted that the bubble as burst. The combination of interest rates cuts, high energy costs (gas, electricity, etc.) tremendous consumer debt, and other factors have translated into a downturn in many other economic sectors.

For example, another big economic indicator is new car sales. Right now... car sales are way down...and still dropping. the result is Ford, GMC and others are dropping 70,000+ jobs.

I believe the economic collapse prophesied by Wolfgram is right on schedule

Aren't we in the fourth year of the second term of Bush's presidency?

I have often wondered exactly what economic collapse means.

The "can the economy be prolonged thread" talks about total economic collapse.

What does that mean?

Going on 10 years ago, the tech bubble burst. Paper value melted. Jobs were lost. But there was not a complete meltdown of the economy. In fact, some tech companies are still kicking.

Before Bear Stearns, Enron, which was considered the biggest at the time, collapsed.

Just last Friday, right while Bear Stearns was melting down, I had the very surreal experience of flying around in a helicopter and sitting at the table in a 20th floor conference room with representatives of one of the wealthiest companies in the world.

Gadiaton Robbers no doubt, but they seemed to understand that in these perilous economic times, they -- even they -- need to make things happen.

The housing bubble has burst and people are moving out of their houses into rentals. Doesn't that mean that the demand for rental housing is going up, more rents are being collected, and landlords and rental housing investors are capitalizing on the situation?

Doesn't that mean that real estate developers will shift from residential housing to rentals, and some will get washed out in the process?

Like Warren Buffett says, you never know who's swimming naked until the tide goes out.

I like Sara Menet's terminology: "commerce will cease." This doesn't really mean that there is things crash and people go baliistic, but that things get so tight and people pull back on their economic activities so much that no one is buy or selling, let alone alone saving and investing. Then after this people freak out when they realize that there is no economic activity, which they require to stay alive.

I am not familiar with this prophecy but while searching the internet on it, I found I post where someone says that the economic collapse will happen the last year of Bush's second term. FWIW http://www.bloggerofjared.com/2006/10/3 ... em-anyone/

News stories.

Bear’s pits
http://www.economist.com/displayStory.c ... 6&fsrc=RSS

Tibetan protests spread to Chinese provinces
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... ional/home


Central banks scramble to stem the bleeding
http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet ... bNews/home

I served as a councilor to Ensign Wolfgramm, Iohanni's nephew, throughout the 80's and early 90's. As a result of my relationship with Ensign, my wife and I had the wonderful opportunity to receive a blessing from Iohani.

I knew that Iohani had raised at least 2 people from the dead. One was his daughter, and Elder Oakes speaks of the event in one of his talks. (Also in the June 2001 Ensign http://lds.org/Static%20Files/PDF/Magazines/Ensign/2001/Jun2001Ensign.pdf Pages 13-14) I had the opportunity to talk to this daughter of Iohani and she told me about her experience of being run over by a car, having her head crushed, dieing, receiving a blessing from her father and coming back to life without any physical evidence that her head was crushed.

Another story I was told was that a relative of Iohani was in the LDS hospital and had died, It took over 2 days to get Iohanni to come and give him a blessing, as he was in California when his relative died. The staff at the LDS Hospital told the family of the dead man that they could not keep the dead body any longer in the hospital room and they were about to move him to the morgue. Finally Iohani got there and revived the dead relative.

The reason that Iohani had the gifts that he had is that he was so very humble and a true follower. He went on eight full time missions to Tonga. He told me that he visited the huts or doors of every person in Tonga, even the King and Queen. Tonga is now predominately Mormon, and some of that success is due to the efforts of the Lord working through Iohani.

My wife and I each received blessings from Iohani, my wife was told in her blessing that she would see the Savior and that she would witness the return of the city of Enoch. Mine was equally wonderful.

Iohani Wolfgramm did not mention to us the coming economic collapse when we met with him, but he did mention getting our lives ready for the Savior's return as he told us that His return would happen very soon.

Iohani's words have sunk deep into my heart. It was a great blessing.
Darren

Fortunately for the renters and unfortunately for the owners, it doesn't work that way. Surplus housing due to improper speculation leads to lower prices for housing for buyers and renters. A great many who got into multiple homes at a time cannot even find renters for anywhere near their price. Can the bank then foreclose and make the rental profitable to itself? They are into it the same amount or close enough so the proposition is the same. They will take a hit selling it, or take a hit renting it, but they will take a hit. The renter on the other hand may well be saving some money with the glut, but likely not enough to put him into a discounted house or otherwise have a significant effect on the market. Especially since lending standards have dramatically tightened and he now must save up a big down payment etc...

And that's just housing let alone energy, retirement, health care, commodities, or any of his other major expenses. But does the energy companies like big oil raking it in help out the common man? Not hardly, it's a redistribution of wealth that does not trickle down. Does his shrinking 401K help the company that mismanaged it or the one that sold stock and now is faltering? Not anymore, and the ceos golden parachutes won't trickle down to him either. Does the hospitals largess make it back to him? If so it is more than offset by the hit he takes every time he sneezes. Are the farmers raking it in with high wheat prices? You wouldn't know it if they are, drought and government intervention takes care of that. All he sees are his bills going up all around. There is no balancing scale when you debt against your future in a losing bet!

Does anyone else feel this today? i woke up this morning at 3 am, could not get back to sleep after trying for an hour. I got up (saw that it was snowing outside) and went downstairs to the couch, turned on the computer and decided to do a little genealogy since I was awake. But anyway, something just doesn't feel right this morning. I've prayed for peace of mind, but can't shake the feeling of something happening (soon??) Just not a good feeling.

Technically this could be Pres. Bush's 3rd year. He leaves office Jan. of 2009. 2009 would be the 4th year making 2008 the 3rd. (of his 2nd term)

Thank you for sharing your experience with us, Darren:

1) 2001
2) 2002
3) 2003
4) 2004
End of First Term
5) 2005
6) 2006
7) 2007
8 2008
End of Second Term

We will elect a new president in 2008. He/she will not take office until 2009. I promise, Jan. 1st 2009 president Bush will still be president. His term ends Jan. 20th 2009.

I seem to remember slightly different versions of this "prophecy." I don't know if there is an official version. I thought I remember one version saying that the economic collapse would be brought on by events in the third year of the second term of Bush, and not necessarily that it would collapse in the third year. I could see this being more plausible as we look at the circumstances of what happened in 2007 with the economy. This could also just be me remembering things incorrectly as I try to reconcile the real life events, and those expressed in versions of what Iohani was saying.

Is there an original documented version of this prophecy? I seem to only be able to find 2nd or 3rd hand versions at best...

Yeah...you're right! I was thinking he would be out on Jan.1.
I'm still not so sure he won't be dictator...uh...president after Jan. 20, 2009.

Has anyone ever heard it suggested that a foreign army would attack during a time when there is an out going president and just as the incoming president was taking office? (inaguration day perhaps??)

Not sure if I read it somewhere or if someone (in conversation) might have just suggested it as a possible scenario.

To me it would make logical sense because this would no doubt cause mass confusion within the government as to whom should be in charge.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

I Know Allan and he recounted this blessing to me, but he told me it was a friend of he and his wife that received this blessing. I'll ask him again just to make sure it wasn't his blessing. As far as Allan goes, I can vouch for him. He's a great guy, down to earth and slow to speculation and hype. By the way, if you haven't purchased his survival manual " Sense of Survival", you better, VERY SOON!!. It's a must have reference book for survival and is the most complete one I've seen. Get it and add it to your 72 hr/14 day kit. Get it here:

http://sosoutfitters.org/book.html

I just got off the phone with Allan and he told me that it WAS NOT him who received that blessing. It was a friend of theirs that received that blessing. Just to clarify, this blessing was never intended to be shared with the masses, but somehow got out and got circulated.

I agree, thank you for sharing that experience Darren.

With those I spoke to, it is my understanding that the 3rd year of the last term referred to the collapses starting point (September 2007)

The war and all that other stuff is supposed to happen after an election and before the new president takes office.

It was also stated that there would be No More US Presidents after Bush Jr.

There are a few ways that could happen.

1. a dictator no elections
2. The US is No More
And who knows how many more scenarios

Made me think of John Taylor's vision where the congress and white house are empty...

Maybe they flee because the freemen shut up the king men and they are afraid of being tried for treason.

Kind of like Amalickiah or something.....

Wolfgram said the economy would collapse in the third year of the second term of the son of George W. Bush. Since Bush Jr was inaugurated January 22nd, the third year of his second term would officially end January 22nd 2008.

The words used in the prophecy, however, are interesting. He says the impact of the collapse would not be “fully felt” until spring.

The problem I’ve had in pondering this prophecy in the past has been coming up with some realistic economic scenario which would fit the definition of a “crash”, but wouldn’t be “fully felt” for a minimum of 2 to 3 months afterwards although as of this date, it could be as much as 4 to 5 months. That’s a tall order, speaking as an economist. Crashes are big things that everyone knows about and generally impact people’s lives within days or weeks.

It seems, that I’m prepared to say Wolfgram foresaw something that even our most brilliant economists could never have predicted a series of events that may ultimately cause the gears that make our economy tick to grind to a halt: A freezing of the credit markets.

We really do live in an economy built around debt. Many decades ago, we passed a critical mark the earnings of the American people, by themselves, were pushing the American economy at the maximum allowable amount, thus leaving us with 3 options for growing a maxed-out economy. If you can increase the number of Americans participating in the economy. This, unfortunately, takes time because we have to wait for more babies to be born.
We can become a more productive nation. Increase manufacturing, compete more effectively on wages, and in general, learn to work smarter, not harder. We chose the opposite approach when we started pushing more jobs off shore, decreasing manufacturing, and shifting our core skill set from production to services.
We can use your existing assets, money, and resources to borrow more money, producing more capital to inject into the economy. The more capital injected, the more it appears the economy is worth, and the more you can borrow. We can create a cycle of credit and debt that effectively feeds on itself, and artificially produces the image that the economy is growing.

But what would happen if something caused creditors to suddenly rethink their willingness to lend money under these conditions , but slowly. What if one single event caused the credit markets to tighten. How long would it be until the full effects of that were realized? And, since we’re looking for a crash, couldn’t such an event reasonably be referred to as a “collapse” of the economy, since liquidity in the credit markets is what keeps the modern economy floating? If that were to disappear, would our economy not have collapsed while we wait for the trickle-down effects

My wife just told me that her Mother is a relative of the Wolfgramm family in Vava'u Tonga. the same Island as my Wife comes from She is very intersted in your tale.

They are very spiritual people in Vava'u.

Thanks for the story.\

THANK YOU!!!

I always cringe when I dreams, near-death experiences, Patriarchal Blessings, etc. posted or being shared widely. These are special, even sacred experiences, not to be used as backing or substantiating evidence for theories, scriptures,prophecies, etc.

As Brigham Young said (quoted by Elder Neal A. Maxwell in one of his books -- paraphrased by me): "If this people want to receive angelic visitations, visions, dreams, etc., they had better learn to be quiet about the ones they already have had!"

This is something that I have wondered about. Ordinary members are different in that special visitations and messages are for them alone. But if the prophet receives such a visitation, due to the nature of who he is, is he not under obligation to testify of it? I have heard some of the apostles and such say that it is to sacred, but their calling is to be special witnesses and to testify of such things. That is if they even happen among the leadership in such a way.

What do you think?

Shawn

Having studied the Great Depression a bit, not many had any real and lasting fear until years after Octobers bloody markets. The "crash" was downplayed and then disconnected in most peoples mind for years. All one need do is look at the decided downturn that happened last year, to see what in retrospect may very well be seen as the crash.

We must also remember that dreams and visions given to men such as he, are not given in words fit for distribution. It is the idea and impression that are important in these cases, not the prophetically binding word of prophecy.

Maybe he said crash in the third year when the vision said to him that the crash will begin in the third year? It's not important, what is important is not to be gleaned by us as it was never intended for us aside from being shared with us anecdotally. We then should treat it anecdotally.

In my mind the market crashed long ago. It's been staying afloat by debt and debt alone.

Many Americans recently or soon will get a tax refund, followed shortly by a tax rebate. That will help for a few months, maybe.

Also, the Bear Stearns thing. If the Fed and our president didn't bail them out (hasn't been done since the 30's) we would probably have already seen a run on the banks. All the fed did is put a little band-aid on a gaping wound. It won't last, it didn't fix the underlying problem.

We're right on schedule. It's interesting to look back at what people thought as we see the events unfolding.

When was the closed door meeting? Wasn't it March? I just thought of that when reading this:



Maybe there is a connection?

I believe the prophecy includes two economic crisis - one in the third year which is smaller that coincides with the housing market that did happen in 2007 and a second one the happens in 2008 which leads to chaos.

Can someone please post the entire prophecy.

HofL

Dream of the Cleansing of America

Yohani Wolfgram
A dream that he had in 1989 seeing the future of America as told to a close friend.
It was a dream of the cleansing of America.
Here are a few salient points that he mentioned:
* The Big economic collapse which leads to chaos will occur in the last year of the 2nd term of the son of George Bush who will become president.
* There will be a great drought at about this same time all over the
country.
* Many in the 'Church' will become unrighteous and apostatize.
* There will be a nuclear bomb or bombs go off in Northern Utah that will
affect as far south as the Salt Lake Valley.
* Hundreds of millions of foreign troops (Chinese, Russians, Germans, Latin Americans, etc. according to other prophecies) will invade America.
* The main foreign force (in the Nevada/Utah/Rocky Mountain area) will be Chinese or Chinese looking troops mixed with Latin American troops.
* He said that in the third year of the second term of President Bush, the U.S. economy would collapse, which in turn would cause a series of events, including an invasion of foreign troops on U.S. soil.
* Someone commenting that the patriarch must mean that President Bush (the 1st Pres. Bush) would be re-elected. Patriarch Wolfgramm then replied (remember, this is 1989) that it wasn't that Pres. Bush, but that it was the son of Pres. Bush who would become president that he was referring to.