Does the Church Use Paid Persons to Monitor Our Discussions?

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

To me, the distinction is, that if you feel safe in always followng the brethren because the spirit has testified to you that doing so will always keep you safe, that is a different matter than feeling safe in always following the prophets and the brethren because a prophet said to.

There are those like me who lack any confidence to challenge anybody on anything. 20 years ago I a) hated the missionary guide, b) thought that missionary discussions should be driven by the spirit instead of scripted, c) thought that as a missionary I should focus on service rather than numbers-driven preaching and d) that the church should have internet missionaries in IRC rooms and on the website.

The reactions were:

a) Shut up and don't challenge the missionary guide you apostate, how dare you think the leaders would implement anything that wasn't perfectly inspired by God

b) ditto

c) what you think doesn't matter - if god wanted you to do more service he would have told the mission president to tell you to do more service

d) what a stupid idea, missionary work will always have to happen in person, face to face. Stop suggesting dumb ideas.

There were other examples as well, and eventually I concluded that God only wanted input from those called to positions of providing input. To this day whenever I have a feeling - even a warm fuzzy feeling - that something could be done differently I keep it to myself because I had the lesson beaten into my soul: if God wanted me to be a source of ideas for the church then he would have inspired somebody to give me a calling where such ideas are supposed to come from. Therefore, any thoughts that are accompanied by feelings like those can't possibly be inspired in any way and should be discarded.

[Etherial Bluecaptain of 10]

Shadow-

Since you have made it known that you have received a revelation that the authorities of the church are God's anointed servants and that they have not erred, you have essentially proclaimed yourself to be a prophet.

I appreciate your passion and the warning voice that you have offered.

Now I need to consider what a spirit has revealed to you in the context of what the spirit has revealed to me and then make a determination as to whether you are a true prophet or a false prophet.

That is not something I intend to do on this forum. Those considerations are done privately.

Again, I appreciate your passion and zeal.

I had made the determination to not make other posts or respond to comments about my post on this forum because I don't want to enter into contentious discussions but the comment you made was irresistible and I succumbed to the temptation.

I shall not be making further comments on this board and I apologize to those who I have offended if you felt I was doing something besides making a few points I felt strongly about for your consideration, regarding the topic of this thread.

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

Not really.

BTW my original comment was made more in the spirit of observation, not condemnation. I don't fault anyone who decides to categorically (blindly) follow the brethren and support the church regardless of what is going on.

I believe both sides of the issue are correct, they are simply following differing gospel laws ( 88:21-24) and will simply end up in different glories.

It is all good. Everyone will end up where they need to end up.

That's where you go off into la la land. You claim that following the prophet and finding safety in the Lord's church is somehow blindly following. You seem to claim that if a person follows the HG and the "gospel" they somehow will find themselves at odds with the "brethren" and the church. That's plain wrong. I find safety with the brethren and in the church BECAUSE the Holy Ghost has testified that the church is the Lord's, that the prophet is His mouthpiece. But even then, I don't "blindly" follow.

Again, your argument is false.

Right on Shaggy. I am just straining my brain to figure out what Pres. Monson or Pres. Uchtdorf or Pres. Eyring or Pres. Packer or Elder Scott or Elder Holland or Elder Perry or Elder Oaks or Elder Nelson or Elder Anderson or Elder Bednar or Elder Hales or Elder Christofferson or Elder Cook or Elder Ballard has said recently that constitutes a spiritually dangerous path for me to take. The "Brethren" teach of Christ and his gospel. Obedience to the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ doesn't seem to dangerous or blind to me. What did I miss?

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

Shadow-

Since you have made it known that you have received a revelation that the authorities of the church are God's anointed servants and that they have not erred, you have essentially proclaimed yourself to be a prophet.

I never said they have not erred (another false conclusion you've jumped to??). The Lord knows He doesn't call perfect people and those whom He calls know they themselves aren't perfect, but they are worthy and I have recieved confirmations (multiple times per year) that they are the Lord's anointed servants so I sustain them as such.

[awakecaptain of 100]

To this day whenever I have a feeling - even a warm fuzzy feeling - that something could be done differently I keep it to myself because I had the lesson beaten into my soul: if God wanted me to be a source of ideas for the church then he would have inspired somebody to give me a calling where such ideas are supposed to come from. Therefore, any thoughts that are accompanied by feelings like those can't possibly be inspired in any way and should be discarded.

I understand what you mean. We are often given this impression today, that we just need to be good little lemmings and not question or disagree with anything leaders say or do.

But the Prophets of yesteryear taught that 'questioning everything taught by church leaders' was a wise, righteous and vital necessity, so we weren't ever deceived by false doctrine or the errors of even sincere leaders.

Yet many today, try to make us think that 'questioning or disagreeing with leaders' is now some kind of a sin. When it is actually one of the most righteous things we could do, especially if a leader is wrong about something.

I myself am sticking with the Prophets of yesteryear, like Joseph Smith, Ezra T. Benson, Harold B. Lee, Joseph Fielding Smith, Brigham Young, etc, etc. For I know that it's possible for any leader in the Church to unknowingly teach false doctrine or even fall and take many along with him, despite how sincere or otherwise 'worthy' the leader may be. We must remember that Heavenly Father told Christ to call Judas to be an Apostle.

I believe that Heavenly Father allows leaders to teach false doctrine or even fall and led people astray, in order to test us, to see if we can be deceived or not. So we will learn to put our trust in Heavenly Father and in his scriptures and not in any man or men, even Prophets.

We should only follow leaders as they are following Heavenly Father. And we must be able to be the judge of that, or we will always be deceived.

But of course, this means we have to say on our toes and do alot of study, pondering and praying and take personal responsibility for our own salvation and spiritual safety.

Ezra T. Benson warned us:

"Six of the original twelve apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The three witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the Church. Three of Joseph Smith's counselors fell - one even helped plot his death. A natural question that might arise would be that if the Lord knew in advance that these men would fall, as he undoubtedly did, why did he have his prophet call them to such high office? The answer is, to fill the Lord's purposes. For even the Master followed the will of the Father by selecting Judas. Pres. George Q. Cannon suggested an explanation, too, when he stated, "Perhaps it is his own design that faults and weaknesses should appear in high places in order that his saints may learn to trust in him and not in any man or men."
Ezra T. Benson, "An Enemy Hath Done This", p. 290.

"My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine."
Joseph Fielding Smith

"If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is speculation, man's own opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth."
Harold B. Lee

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

As long as I can remember the voices of the 15 have all been unified - there is no deviation in thought or teachings and it appears that there is one way, one mind, one thought - all or nothing. I have other thoughts on things but who am I?

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Not really.

BTW my original comment was made more in the spirit of observation, not condemnation. I don't fault anyone who decides to categorically (blindly) follow the brethren and support the church regardless of what is going on.

I believe both sides of the issue are correct, they are simply following differing gospel laws ( 88:21-24) and will simply end up in different glories.

It is all good. Everyone will end up where they need to end up.

That's where you go off into la la land. You claim that following the prophet and finding safety in the Lord's church is somehow blindly following. You seem to claim that if a person follows the HG and the "gospel" they somehow will find themselves at odds with the "brethren" and the church. That's plain wrong. I find safety with the brethren and in the church BECAUSE the Holy Ghost has testified that the church is the Lord's, that the prophet is His mouthpiece. But even then, I don't "blindly" follow.

Again, your argument is false.

Right on Shaggy. I am just straining my brain to figure out what Pres. Monson or Pres. Uchtdorf or Pres. Eyring or Pres. Packer or Elder Scott or Elder Holland or Elder Perry or Elder Oaks or Elder Nelson or Elder Anderson or Elder Bednar or Elder Hales or Elder Christofferson or Elder Cook or Elder Ballard has said recently that constitutes a spiritually dangerous path for me to take. The "Brethren" teach of Christ and his gospel. Obedience to the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ doesn't seem to dangerous or blind to me. What did I miss?

Its a progression I think...if one isn't obedient at the lower level how can they expect to move up? Is there any way to skip levels? Not that I'm aware of.

D&C Section 76 pretty much lays it out.

These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... 6?lang=eng

Can you leap frog from telestial to celestial? Can you progress to terrestrial without being obedient to the appointed administering angels?

Was Nephi immediate a prophet or was he first obedient to a prophet and then over time through that obedience (and various tests) became a prophet himself?

Is anyone stating that you are bound to a level or that you shouldn't desire to progress (see the Christ)? Or is it line upon line and precept upon precept? Here a little and there a little?

And if you aren't obedient to the Lord's appointed and anointed servants first then how in the world can you expect to reach Christ (terrestrial)?

And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

Do we determine when we are ready to step up or does the Lord? If we seek after the Lord's face don't we first have to seek the counsel of His appointed servants and be obedient to that law which we receive from them? If we aren't completely obedient to which we have received (or become completely obedient through the reconciliation of repentance) isn't it premature and possibly destructive to our souls to try and leap frog over them? And is that frankly even possible?

If we receive not the prophets are we not bound down to where we are?

But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;

Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;

To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves;

That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.

And to God and the Lamb be glory, and honor, and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... 6?lang=eng

Is there a not a timing component to progression with various tests along the way?

Again look at Nephi's progression from prayer to confirm through the Spirit that indeed his father's counsel was from the Lord. Then through obedience to that counsel and spiritual witness of the Lord's servant he progressed to the point that he had his own spiritual witness of seeing and knowing for himself.

How can we expect to progress if all we are doing is criticizing the Lord's servants rather than seeking after and being obedient to their counsel? Is that not a sign post of our spiritual progression?

Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth, and rejoice ye inhabitants thereof, for the Lord is God, and beside him there is no Savior.

Great is his wisdom, marvelous are his ways, and the extent of his doings none can find out.

His purposes fail not, neither are there any who can stay his hand.

From eternity to eternity he is the same, and his years never fail.

For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.

Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory.

And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom.

Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations.

And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught.

For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... 6?lang=eng

Oh what promises for those who are obedient and keep the laws that are given unto them line upon line and precept upon precept.

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

I am not making any accusation of anyone, but it does seem like a lot of time there is a lot of voice of warning of seeking spiritual guidance (because you can be deceived and led astray) and it is a valid warning. But I feel that the pitfall that we more often fall into is the spiritually complacent or lazy path of letting the brethren do the heavy lifting...and many of those that say "follow the brethren" actually don't if it is something they personally disagree with. As an example, the many past prophets who have said that aside from worshipping God that there is nothing that we should be more concerned with than understanding and upholding the Constitution - what bothers me is it SEEMS to me that those who just shrug their shoulders and pretty much ignore that are often the SAME individuals who chant the "follow the prophet" mantra. Or they take the ridiculous position that anything a past prophet has said is not relevant unless it has been repeated by the current prophet. etc.

I appreciate your words OI (I seemed to have missed your post until now) but I somehow think you're making a small jab at me with your constitution remark so let me clarify-
I, and I think it's safe to include Legion and ChelC, uphold the Constitution and think I even understand it even though I'm sure I could learn more. What I have concluded thus far is that the only people who can actually live under the guides of the Constitution are those who are worthy of it. Not everyone can! This country, IMO, is not worthy of it so preaching about restoring it is pointless. FIRST, people need to repent so they can be worthy and responsible enough to sufficiently govern themselves. I don't recall anyone on this site claiming the Constitution is old or out-dated and not worth the paper it was written on. I think we just have a different perspective on how to restore it.
And secondly, it seems that because some of us don't support RP you and others interpret that to mean we don't support the Constitution. You believe that RP and the Constitution go hand in hand while others like myself see some major flaws with RP. I can be pro-Constitution yet not support RP. I know, that boggles your mind but it's true!

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

Its a progression I think...if one isn't obedient at the lower level how can they expect to move up? Is there any way to skip levels? Not that I'm aware of.

D&C Section 76 pretty much lays it out.

These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... 6?lang=eng

Can you leap frog from telestial to celestial? Can you progress to terrestrial without being obedient to the appointed administering angels?

Was Nephi immediate a prophet or was he first obedient to a prophet and then over time through that obedience (and various tests) became a prophet himself?

Is anyone stating that you are bound to a level or that you shouldn't desire to progress (see the Christ)? Or is it line upon line and precept upon precept? Here a little and there a little?

And if you aren't obedient to the Lord's appointed and anointed servants first then how in the world can you expect to reach Christ (terrestrial)?

And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

Do we determine when we are ready to step up or does the Lord? If we seek after the Lord's face don't we first have to seek the counsel of His appointed servants and be obedient to that law which we receive from them? If we aren't completely obedient to which we have received (or become completely obedient through the reconciliation of repentance) isn't it premature and possibly destructive to our souls to try and leap frog over them? And is that frankly even possible?

If we receive not the prophets are we not bound down to where we are?

But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;

Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;

To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves;

That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.

And to God and the Lamb be glory, and honor, and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... 6?lang=eng

Is there a not a timing component to progression with various tests along the way?

Again look at Nephi's progression from prayer to confirm through the Spirit that indeed his father's counsel was from the Lord. Then through obedience to that counsel and spiritual witness of the Lord's servant he progressed to the point that he had his own spiritual witness of seeing and knowing for himself.

How can we expect to progress if all we are doing is criticizing the Lord's servants rather than seeking after and being obedient to their counsel? Is that not a sign post of our spiritual progression?

Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth, and rejoice ye inhabitants thereof, for the Lord is God, and beside him there is no Savior.

Great is his wisdom, marvelous are his ways, and the extent of his doings none can find out.

His purposes fail not, neither are there any who can stay his hand.

From eternity to eternity he is the same, and his years never fail.

For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.

Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory.

And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom.

Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations.

And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught.

For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... 6?lang=eng

Oh what promises for those who are obedient and keep the laws that are given unto them line upon line and precept upon precept.

That is one great post Bro. I commend you for your insights.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

I am not making any accusation of anyone, but it does seem like a lot of time there is a lot of voice of warning of seeking spiritual guidance (because you can be deceived and led astray) and it is a valid warning. But I feel that the pitfall that we more often fall into is the spiritually complacent or lazy path of letting the brethren do the heavy lifting...and many of those that say "follow the brethren" actually don't if it is something they personally disagree with. As an example, the many past prophets who have said that aside from worshipping God that there is nothing that we should be more concerned with than understanding and upholding the Constitution - what bothers me is it SEEMS to me that those who just shrug their shoulders and pretty much ignore that are often the SAME individuals who chant the "follow the prophet" mantra. Or they take the ridiculous position that anything a past prophet has said is not relevant unless it has been repeated by the current prophet. etc.

I appreciate your words OI (I seemed to have missed your post until now) but I somehow think you're making a small jab at me with your constitution remark so let me clarify-
I, and I think it's safe to include Legion and ChelC, uphold the Constitution and think I even understand it even though I'm sure I could learn more. What I have concluded thus far is that the only people who can actually live under the guides of the Constitution are those who are worthy of it. Not everyone can! This country, IMO, is not worthy of it so preaching about restoring it is pointless. FIRST, people need to repent so they can be worthy and responsible enough to sufficiently govern themselves. I don't recall anyone on this site claiming the Constitution is old or out-dated and not worth the paper it was written on. I think we just have a different perspective on how to restore it.
And secondly, it seems that because some of us don't support RP you and others interpret that to mean we don't support the Constitution. You believe that RP and the Constitution go hand in hand while others like myself see some major flaws with RP. I can be pro-Constitution yet not support RP. I know, that boggles your mind but it's true!

No shadowman, it was NOT a jab at you or anyone. What I meant was there are plenty of "follow the prophet" voices (not referring to anyone on this forum) who do NOT have their food storage, do not and DID not study the constitution, maybe even watch an R-rated movie now and again. In other words, they preach follow the prophet to appear righteous, but in fact, if they disagree with the prophet they are the worst possible examples of following the prophets. And I am sure there are examples of the same from people saying "follow the spirit!" and also in the follow the spirit crowd are apostates, ex-mormons and so forth that want people to outright ignore the prophet because they do not support the prophet.

Anyway, main thing I wanted to clarify is that no jab was intended - just that many good church attending members that Rameumptom "Follow the prophet" are doing so to be seen of men, not that they actually are good followers (as they would have others believe.)

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Its a progression I think...if one isn't obedient at the lower level how can they expect to move up? Is there any way to skip levels? Not that I'm aware of.

D&C Section 76 pretty much lays it out.

These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... 6?lang=eng

Can you leap frog from telestial to celestial? Can you progress to terrestrial without being obedient to the appointed administering angels?

Was Nephi immediate a prophet or was he first obedient to a prophet and then over time through that obedience (and various tests) became a prophet himself?

Is anyone stating that you are bound to a level or that you shouldn't desire to progress (see the Christ)? Or is it line upon line and precept upon precept? Here a little and there a little?

And if you aren't obedient to the Lord's appointed and anointed servants first then how in the world can you expect to reach Christ (terrestrial)?

And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

Do we determine when we are ready to step up or does the Lord? If we seek after the Lord's face don't we first have to seek the counsel of His appointed servants and be obedient to that law which we receive from them? If we aren't completely obedient to which we have received (or become completely obedient through the reconciliation of repentance) isn't it premature and possibly destructive to our souls to try and leap frog over them? And is that frankly even possible?

If we receive not the prophets are we not bound down to where we are?

But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;

Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;

To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves;

That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.

And to God and the Lamb be glory, and honor, and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... 6?lang=eng

Is there a not a timing component to progression with various tests along the way?

Again look at Nephi's progression from prayer to confirm through the Spirit that indeed his father's counsel was from the Lord. Then through obedience to that counsel and spiritual witness of the Lord's servant he progressed to the point that he had his own spiritual witness of seeing and knowing for himself.

How can we expect to progress if all we are doing is criticizing the Lord's servants rather than seeking after and being obedient to their counsel? Is that not a sign post of our spiritual progression?

Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth, and rejoice ye inhabitants thereof, for the Lord is God, and beside him there is no Savior.

Great is his wisdom, marvelous are his ways, and the extent of his doings none can find out.

His purposes fail not, neither are there any who can stay his hand.

From eternity to eternity he is the same, and his years never fail.

For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.

Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory.

And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom.

Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations.

And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught.

For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... 6?lang=eng

Oh what promises for those who are obedient and keep the laws that are given unto them line upon line and precept upon precept.

That is one great post Bro. I commend you for your insights.

Thank you Mark!

[Thomascaptain of 1,000]

As long as I can remember the voices of the 15 have all been unified - there is no deviation in thought or teachings and it appears that there is one way, one mind, one thought - all or nothing. I have other thoughts on things but who am I?

This is what we see in public though, we don't see what goes on behind the scenes. I know that the land for the Bountiful temple was purchased and plans were in the works to have it built for TWO YEARS before they could actually begin construction because some of the brethren did not agree with the decision to build this temple. Some felt it was not an appropriate spot to build as it's right on the fault line. But of course the disagreement among them was not announced in conference or anything.... (I know because I worked for the church and was privy to some information that the rest of the world wasn't). I don't mean to be argumentative, but we see what the brethren want us to see, and they do not publicly announce decisions unless they decide to be unified on them. But they are regular businessmen who do not always agree on how to run the corporation.

Some disagreements have been far more public. Maybe disagreement is too strong a word. I recall Oct. 2010 conference. Pres Packer's talk about homosexuality caused quite a stir in the local community. I have been a subscriber to the Salt Lake Tribune for many years and those who are not, may not know what a storm followed the remarks of Pres. Packer.

There were large front section stories about it, every day for five or six days. Pres Packer stated that people choose same sex attraction and could cure themselves through prayer and faith.

I am giving this from memory so I might not get every detail right but the reason it caused the stories was, the church had been meeting with several LDS gay support groups. The groups were made up of gay or same sex attracted LDS members and some famliy members of gay LDS people. One group had about ten thousand members.

They had been meeting with some of the general authorities on a regualar basis, for several years, to discuss issues related to their situation. I understand this was one of the reasons the church publicly supported the SLC anti-discrimnation legislation for gays.

These groups felt betrayed by Pres Packer's remarks because through these meetings they had come to some agreements, including one that the church would stop saying people choose same sex attraction.

The friday following conference, Pres. Uchtdorf gave a devontional speech at BYU. He made a point of stating that the church's official position was, that the church did not know if people choose same sex attraction. This obvisously was in response to the many stories in the paper and was not going to be the subject of his talk before the stories were published.

It also contradicted what Pres Packer had said in conference five days earlier.

[AshleyBcaptain of 1,000]

The key is what following the prophet means to each person. Personally I prefer the term I have seen snuffer use better. I dont think its "his" term but one that he uses. That we are to RECEIVE the prophets. But that's just terminology. Lets use the term follow the prophet to really think about what that's supposed to mean? I think to "follow the prophet" in the correct context simply means that they show us by example how to come unto Christ and that we "follow" their example until we become what they are and become prophets in our own right by treading the same path to the Savior. We follow them on the path by doing as they did until we attain the same gifts and knowledge. To me, that would be the correct way to follow a prophet. However, I believe that most of the membership do not fully understand what the roll of a prophet is and that is where the danger lies when the mantra is simple stated all the time but misunderstood by most.

It is never the intent of the Lord to place another man between you and Him. So if a person is just listening to them and relying on them for answers all the time but are not really coming unto Christ and actually growing and getting closure to receiving the same gifts as the prophet has then they are those who are just relying on the arm of flesh and then the prophet becomes a stumbling block. This is where I think the fundamental difference lies in opinions about that mantra. For the most part if someone is practicing blind obedience to a prophet and trusting in man and not seeking the Lord or trusting in the Lord it is showing their level of faith in the Lord. And they are setting themselves up to stumble and that responsibility lies with them and for the most part it is the fault of the person doing it. As far as the brethren go I believe they make a great effort to point others to Christ, however, on occasion some of them being prone to weaknesses just like ourselves have made statements that promotes the adversary's version of follow the prophet. They like many others have been brought up in the culture of the church which is steeped in the precepts of men and sometimes can promote those precepts unknowingly. I do have to say though that as far as turning men's eyes to themselves goes its not something I have seen them do a lot. But on occasion I have read or heard things that make me cringe a little. And that is not judgement of them or even criticism. Just observations. But it really doesn't matter because if a person is grounded in Christ and has eyes to see and ears to hear they will not fall prey to the precepts of men and they can discard that little but of advice and move on and no one should blame the brethren for their own lack of knowledge on anything. We are responsible for seeking our own salvation and like wise we are responsible for our own damnation. Here is a quote by Brigham that I was hoping to find to illustrate my point but Im having trouble digging it up. I will post it when I find it again. I really liked it.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

It is never the intent of the Lord to place another man between you and Him.

I would disagree on this - there is ALWAYS other people on the path between you and the Lord, namely the Prophet, the Stake President and the Bishop - you have to convince the latter two that you are worthy for baptism and sealing for example. And remember, if you ever make the prophet really mad at you he can condemn you to hell on his own authority and there will be nothing that you can do about it.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

It is never the intent of the Lord to place another man between you and Him.

I would disagree on this - there is ALWAYS other people on the path between you and the Lord, namely the Prophet, the Stake President and the Bishop - you have to convince the latter two that you are worthy for baptism and sealing for example. And remember, if you ever make the prophet really mad at you he can condemn you to hell on his own authority and there will be nothing that you can do about it.

Not sure if serious...

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

The first bit? Serious, but perhaps not expressed clearly - or perhaps just a different and more literal way of viewing things.

The last bit? Clearly specified in the scriptures:

Matthew 16:19 and Matthew 18:18 set the foundation, but the explicit clarification comes in D&C 132:

46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.

47 And again, verily I say, whomsoever you bless I will bless, and whomsoever you curse I will curse, saith the Lord; for I, the Lord, am thy God.

48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you give any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.

In clear, unambiguous language it is explicitly stated that the prophet has the power to remit or retain sins and his judgment will be honored in heaven. There are no other scriptural counters to this - the Lord is clearly, specifically, explicitly and unambiguously delegating authority to the prophet to remit or retain sins. There is no difference between this and the FP or the Q12 authorizing other individuals to act on their behalf.

The Lord said that the prophet can remit sins and such remissions will be honored. I can't come up with a single way to even attempt to deny this or interpret it in any other way.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

I'd say that doesn't cover "on his own authority".

2 Nephi 9:41

O then, my beloved brethren, acome unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the bway for man is cnarrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the dgate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.

All will be brought to a final judgement, and that judgement will not be based on anything done by a bishop, stake president, or prophet. Even if a prophet did seal it upon them, that sealing would have to be ratified by the spirit just like any other.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

He is the keeper of the gate, as in he lets people through or denies admission based on the "sin load" that they are carrying. If the prophet absolves somebody of all of their sins then they show up at the gate clean and ready for entry.

Even if a prophet did seal it upon them, that sealing would have to be ratified by the spirit just like any other.

D&C does not include a provision requiring ratification. There is an absolute IF ... THEN clause that clearly declares personal discretion that will be honored. Ratification of anything that the prophet does is instant, if he was ever acting unworthily then he wouldn't be prophet but would be recalled out of this world immediately.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

Also the scripture is explicitly stating you (Joseph Smith Jr.) and does not state that this is a power inherent in being a prophet.

This may be an instance of the Lord recognizing that a specific individual will never do anything that is not in compliance witht he will of the Lord and therefore recognizing that.

And I firmly disagree with your assertion that if you "get a prophet mad" that they on their own authority can damn you to hell - at the very least it is a GRANTED authority, not an inherent one, and the Lord can revoke anything granted, especially if the authority were ever abused. So your premise that "getting a prophet angry" could get you damned (in other words that he could seal a damnation upon you that otherwise would not be the case) is false. We are also told that God is no respecter of persons, and there is NO WAY that he would place the eternal destiny of another in the hands of another fallible human.

An example that comes to mind that disproves your idea is Jonah, who was pretty upset that Nineveh was not destroyed according to his prophecy, which was avoided due to their repentance. If he could have "sealed their sins" upon them, repentance would not have been possible and it would have been destroyed. And Jonah, although a prophet, still had some lessons to learn regarding the love of God for all of His children.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

But this is an inherent part of the sealing power, something that is inherent with being the prophet - it is the most important key they have. So yes, it is GRANTED but as an inherent authority it is granted upon receiving the calling to prophet. This is part of the fullness of times and the fullness of the gospel.

Did Jonah have the sealing power? I can't think of anything that said that he did.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

But this is an inherent part of the sealing power, something that is inherent with being the prophet - it is the most important key they have. So yes, it is GRANTED but as an inherent authority it is granted upon receiving the calling to prophet. This is part of the fullness of times and the fullness of the gospel.

Did Jonah have the sealing power? I can't think of anything that said that he did.

You stated yourself that it is an inherent authority of receiving the calling of prophet - so was Jonah a prophet or not?

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

He was a prophet but weren't there some keys that went found on the earth until the transfiguration? If anybody had those keys there would not have been the need for that.

And remember, a certain prophet called for bears to eat a bunch of kids for calling them bald and God didn't have a problem with that

[awakecaptain of 100]

Ratification of anything that the prophet does is instant, if he was ever acting unworthily then he wouldn't be prophet but would be recalled out of this world immediately.

I do not believe that is true. I believe that God will allow an unworthy Prophet to remain in office and not remove him by his own power, even if that Prophet has completely fallen and is leading the Church astray. For if that happens, it will be a test of the people to see if they can detect the Prophet's unworthiness.

If the Prophet is ever removed from office it will be by the members and other leaders of the Church 'IF' they can detect he is actually leading them astray, which they may never detect, especially if most of them have lost the Spirit too. D&C 107 was given as instruction for just such times when the President of the Church may fall.

And just because the Prophet or any other leader may seal a man and woman together does not mean that it is instant or even valid, especially if one or both of them was not really worthy of that sealing. People lie to themselves and leaders all the time to get into the temple to be sealed or resealed. The Church has said that all ordinances are not necessarily valid, for they are dependent upon the person's worthiness.

"If a person undertakes to receive the sealing blessing by deceit, then the blessing is not sealed, notwithstanding the integrity and authority of the person officiating."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:185.

"The radifying seal of approval is put upon an act only if those entering the contract are worthy as a result of personal righteousness to receive the divine approbation."
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 361-362.

"An eternal bond doesn't just happen as a result of sealing covenants we make in the temple. How we conduct ourselves in this life will determine what we will be in all the eternities to come. To receive the blessings of the sealing that our Heavenly Father has given to us, we have to keep the commandments and conduct ourselves in such a way that our families will want to live with us in the eternities."
Elder Hales, CR Oct. 1996.

"Some folks have the mistaken notion that if somehow, by hook or by crook, they can get into the House of the Lord and be married they are assured of Exaltation regardless of what they do."
Pres. Harold B. Lee, BYU Speeches of the Year, Jan. 5, 1954.

"We may be sure that the Lord is just and true, and no man will be denied any blessing to which he is entitled. Neither will any man receive that which he is not entitled, even though we should endeavor to give it to him by the ordinances of the house of the Lord."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:185

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

As long as I can remember the voices of the 15 have all been unified - there is no deviation in thought or teachings and it appears that there is one way, one mind, one thought - all or nothing. I have other thoughts on things but who am I?

This is what we see in public though, we don't see what goes on behind the scenes. I know that the land for the Bountiful temple was purchased and plans were in the works to have it built for TWO YEARS before they could actually begin construction because some of the brethren did not agree with the decision to build this temple. Some felt it was not an appropriate spot to build as it's right on the fault line. But of course the disagreement among them was not announced in conference or anything.... (I know because I worked for the church and was privy to some information that the rest of the world wasn't). I don't mean to be argumentative, but we see what the brethren want us to see, and they do not publicly announce decisions unless they decide to be unified on them. But they are regular businessmen who do not always agree on how to run the corporation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8tccvnKEy0
Imperfect people resolving issues perfectly.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

I believe that God will allow an unworthy Prophet to remain in office and not remove him by his own power, even if that Prophet has completely fallen and is leading the Church astray.

Here is the official doctrine on the subject, as it appears in the official manual for the Teachings of the Living Prophets student manual, Religion 333. This material has been approved by the leaders of the church and must be accepted unquestioningly as 100% absolute, pure, unadulterated truth.

http://institute.lds.org/manuals/teachi ... lp-3-7.asp

(3-7) The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray

The following are three testimonies which show clearly that the Lord will never allow his prophet to lead the Church out of the path of truth:

“I bear you my solemn witness that we have a living prophet, seer, and revelator. We are not dependent only upon the revelations given in the past . . . we have a mouthpiece to whom God is revealing his mind and will. God will never permit him to lead us astray. As has been said, God would remove us out of our place if we should attempt to do it. You have not concern. Let the management and government of God, then, be with the Lord. Do not try to find fault with the management and affairs that pertain to him alone and by revelation through his prophet.” (Harold B. Lee, “The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator,” in Charge, p. 112.)

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting, I drove him home. . . . When we got to his home I got out of the car and went up on the porch with him. Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Marion G. Romney, in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78.)

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” (Wilford Woodruff, in “General Conference,” Millennial Star, 24 Nov. 1890 [52:741]; or The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

A man who is out of harmony with the Lord will never lead the Lord’s church. God will not permit it. The following quotations make that clear:

“Safety is in following divinely appointed leadership and counsel. . . .

“The keys of this power and authority center in the president of the High Priesthood of the Church. It is not given to any other man to so represent God here upon the earth. . . .

“God will not suffer his Church, established for the last time in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times when a restitution of all things is to be accomplished, to be led by a fallen prophet, or by someone whom he does not want.” (Delbert L. Stapley, in Conference Report, Apr. 1952, pp. 49–50.)

“I testify in the name of Israel’s God that He will not suffer the head of the Church, him whom He has chosen to stand at the head, to transgress His laws and apostatize; the moment he should take a course that would in time lead to it, God would take him away. Why? Because to suffer a wicked man to occupy that position would be to allow, as it were, the fountain to become corrupted, which is something He will never permit.” (Joseph F. Smith, in Journal of Discourses, 24:192.)



(3-8) What Should We Remember about the Prerogatives of the Living Prophet?

“In conclusion, let us summarize this grand key, these ‘Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet,’ for our salvation hangs on them.

“First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

“Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

“Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

“Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

“Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

“Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

“Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

“Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

“Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

“Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

“Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

“Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

“Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

“Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

“I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true.” (Benson, “Fourteen Fundamentals,” p. 30.)

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

I believe that God will allow an unworthy Prophet to remain in office and not remove him by his own power, even if that Prophet has completely fallen and is leading the Church astray.

Here is the official doctrine on the subject, as it appears in the official manual for the Teachings of the Living Prophets student manual, Religion 333. This material has been approved by the leaders of the church and must be accepted unquestioningly as 100% absolute, pure, unadulterated truth.

http://institute.lds.org/manuals/teachi ... lp-3-7.asp

(3-7) The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray

The following are three testimonies which show clearly that the Lord will never allow his prophet to lead the Church out of the path of truth:

“I bear you my solemn witness that we have a living prophet, seer, and revelator. We are not dependent only upon the revelations given in the past . . . we have a mouthpiece to whom God is revealing his mind and will. God will never permit him to lead us astray. As has been said, God would remove us out of our place if we should attempt to do it. You have not concern. Let the management and government of God, then, be with the Lord. Do not try to find fault with the management and affairs that pertain to him alone and by revelation through his prophet.” (Harold B. Lee, “The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator,” in Charge, p. 112.)

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting, I drove him home. . . . When we got to his home I got out of the car and went up on the porch with him. Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Marion G. Romney, in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78.)

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” (Wilford Woodruff, in “General Conference,” Millennial Star, 24 Nov. 1890 [52:741]; or The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

A man who is out of harmony with the Lord will never lead the Lord’s church. God will not permit it. The following quotations make that clear:

“Safety is in following divinely appointed leadership and counsel. . . .

“The keys of this power and authority center in the president of the High Priesthood of the Church. It is not given to any other man to so represent God here upon the earth. . . .

“God will not suffer his Church, established for the last time in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times when a restitution of all things is to be accomplished, to be led by a fallen prophet, or by someone whom he does not want.” (Delbert L. Stapley, in Conference Report, Apr. 1952, pp. 49–50.)

“I testify in the name of Israel’s God that He will not suffer the head of the Church, him whom He has chosen to stand at the head, to transgress His laws and apostatize; the moment he should take a course that would in time lead to it, God would take him away. Why? Because to suffer a wicked man to occupy that position would be to allow, as it were, the fountain to become corrupted, which is something He will never permit.” (Joseph F. Smith, in Journal of Discourses, 24:192.)



(3-8) What Should We Remember about the Prerogatives of the Living Prophet?

“In conclusion, let us summarize this grand key, these ‘Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet,’ for our salvation hangs on them.

“First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

“Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

“Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

“Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

“Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

“Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

“Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

“Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

“Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

“Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

“Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

“Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

“Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

“Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

“I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true.” (Benson, “Fourteen Fundamentals,” p. 30.)

Nice collection of quotes!!!

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

Legion, of it's all the same to you I have some pretty hard feelings against you at the moment so could you please not reply to my posts? Thanks.

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

and, who cares

[Fiannancaptain of 1,000]

Some disagreements have been far more public. Maybe disagreement is too strong a word. I recall Oct. 2010 conference. Pres Packer's talk about homosexuality caused quite a stir in the local community. I have been a subscriber to the Salt Lake Tribune for many years and those who are not, may not know what a storm followed the remarks of Pres. Packer.

Is that the conference talk from Pres. Packer that was later edited into a politically correct format for publishing into the Ensign?

[Stella Solariscaptain of 1,000]

Yes