To do with the carbon dating in this story? Just curious, it's all very interesting! Notice the date
by Daniel Johnson
Adapted from his forthcoming book An LDS Guide to the Yucatan
In 1895, Henry Mercer explored 29 caves in the Yucatán looking for evidence of prehistoric habitation. In the Loltún Cave and others he found the bones of many ancient animals, but no fossils. Between this dig and 1977, ancient horse bones have been found in the Huechil Grotto at Loltún . Exactly how they got there is unknown, but it is probable that they were brought there by ancient inhabitants, since it is believed that early man hunted native horses. Because these bones are not fossilized, there is a limit to how old they might be. A tantalizing (but rarely mentioned) sidenote is that the horse remains in some caves were found alongside potsherds and other man-made artifacts.
It should be recognized that on the subject of horses, the Book of Mormon was actually ahead of its time. If it had been written according to the knowledge of the day, horses would not have appeared within its pages at all. From time to time, apparently ancient horse teeth or bones had been found in North America, but they were usually dismissed or ignored. The existence of ancient, indigenous horses on the American continent was only first accepted in 1848, when Richard Owen described a fossil horse from South America. The first scientific paper on ancient horses in the Americas was published that same year by Joseph Leidy. But now, horse fossils, bones, and teeth have been found in North, Central, and South America. Many varieties of ancient American horse are known, including the Western Horse (Equus occidentalis), the Mexican Horse (Equus conversidens), the Yukon Horse (Equus lambei), Scott’s Horse (Equus scotti), and the Complex-tooth Horse (Equus complicatus). Some of these varieties were quite large, growing to the size of modern species. The remains found in the Yucatán have been classified as E. occidentalis and E. conversidens. All of these horses are now extinct, but the question of when and why they became extinct remains. It is now believed that horses, elephants, and other large animals evolved in the Americas first before migrating over the Bering Land Bridge to Asia long ago. Why they flourished there and died out here is still a mystery, especially for horses, which have thrived in the wilds of North and South America since being re-introduced by Europeans.
The bones and artifacts found in 1977 in two lateral extensions of the Huechil Grotto in the Loltún Cave, known as El Túnel and El Toro, have been described by Dr. Peter Schmidt of INAH as ‘problematic’ and ‘complicated.’ Unfortunately, very few details about the findings have been published. Most of the data come from stratigraphic excavations in El Toro. Labeled I to XVI, the levels represent the caves’ chronology, with I being the most recent and XVI the most ancient. Bones and bony fragments of Pleistocene megafauna have been found in most of El Toro’s levels, but the only published radiocarbon dating comes from levels VII and VIII. Taken from various pieces of charcoal, the date is 1805 bc, with an error of +/- 150 years, well after the Ice Age. But this is not all. ‘Sadly,’ as Dr. Schmidt laments, 44 horse bone fragments have been recovered from levels VII to II, all supposedly from earlier time periods and also containing Maya Classic and Preclassic ceramics! His article exclaims that something has happened in Loltún that is still hard to explain: The survival of extinct animals like the Mexican Horse may need to be extended to the beginnings of the ceramic era, which would not please paleontologists.
This and other hard evidence of pre-Columbian horses means that we should not be too apologetic about their appearance in the Book of Mormon, nor do we have to go to extraordinary lengths to explain them. There are still some controversial elements in the scriptural record that we may never be able to explain, but the existence of horses in Ancient America is not one of them.
Read additional material by Daniel M. Johnson Indigenous Horses at http://www.bmaf.org/node/123" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Steve Jones, did you have anything--
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bobhenstra
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Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Last edited by bobhenstra on March 10th, 2012, 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BroJones
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Great question, my friend. In fact, I completed an article on my research (with others) on Equus bones in the Americas on Feb 28th 2012. The paper should be published fairly soon... but I see that you would like answers about this research sooner, so I will see if I can get the content published here in the next few days...
Thanks again for the question!
Thanks again for the question!
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bobhenstra
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
I appreciate that Steve! When I first took your advice and joined this site, it looked to me to be a site that could possibly go LDS based viral in a big hurry. I was looking for a site that I could place my treatise on salvation on, a site I could place my own experiences concerning self sufficiency on. Thought then for sure this was the site. In some case I haven't been disappointed.
For example, my treatise is lost way down in the jumble of threads and posts on this site yet, four people a day visit that thread, down from 10 a day during the last year. My treatise has been on the web for almost 17 years now on this and on other sites earlier including the original Gospelink site. The thread on bartering and self sufficient is visited many more times a day.
Each time I get on this site I check who else is on and see members I recognize and 50-100 guests. Brian would know better the actual numbers, but I do believe articles on this site will go viral in a hurry!
Steve, thank you for your expertise!
Bob
For example, my treatise is lost way down in the jumble of threads and posts on this site yet, four people a day visit that thread, down from 10 a day during the last year. My treatise has been on the web for almost 17 years now on this and on other sites earlier including the original Gospelink site. The thread on bartering and self sufficient is visited many more times a day.
Each time I get on this site I check who else is on and see members I recognize and 50-100 guests. Brian would know better the actual numbers, but I do believe articles on this site will go viral in a hurry!
Steve, thank you for your expertise!
Bob
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BroJones
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
I appreciate your posts, too, Bob. And thanks for asking about my horse-bone studies using radiometric methods. So here is the paper; it may undergo minor changes during the review process before actual publication in Ancient American :
________________________________
Were there Horses in the Americas before Columbus?
Dr. Steven E. Jones
This letter is in response to a request from Wayne May for information regarding my research on early horses (Equus) in the Americas, before the arrival of Columbus. This interim material is shared in order to encourage a wider community to join in the task of gathering further evidence regarding pre-Columbian horses in the Americas, including a request for photos of pictographs, petroglyphs and engravings which may represent pre-Columbian horses.
About twelve years ago, I began a project to seek horse bones from sites in North America and Mesoamerica for the purpose of radiocarbon dating. In this research, I was joined by Prof. Wade Miller of the BYU Department of Geology, archaeologists Joaquin Arroyo-Cabrales and Shelby Saberon, and Patricia M. Fazio of the Buffalo Bill Historical Center. My special thanks to FARMS and ISPART who funded much of the project in years past. We secured horse bones for dating, some directly from the field. Then state-of-the-art radiocarbon dating was performed at Stafford Laboratories in Colorado, the University of California at Riverside, or Beta Analytic in Miami, Florida, employing Accelerator Mass Spectrometer (AMS) dating methods. The reliability of the AMS method of radiocarbon dating of bones is delineated in: Radiocarbon, Volume 34, Number 3, pp. 279-291.
The goal was to provide radiocarbon dates for samples that appeared from depth or other considerations to be pre-Columbian. The time frame of interest can be expressed in terms of “Before Present” by convention and extends from 10,000 BP (thus after the last ice age) to 500 BP (when Spaniards soon after Columbus brought horses to America). The prevailing paradigm holds that there were no horses in the Americas during this time interval; the Book of Mormon and a number of native American oral traditions hold otherwise. The samples in this study can be divided into two categories according to their origins: Mexico, and the United States.
Forty-five Equus samples were obtained in Mexico. Based on AMS dating, there was one sample from the Ice Age period, and six from the post-Columbus period. Other samples had insufficient collagen in the bone to permit dating – collagen protein locks in carbon-14, permitting accurate C-14 dating. Thus, the laboratories require a certain minimum amount of collagen in order to proceed with the dating. There were no Equus samples found in this study in Mesoamerica for the time interval 14,700 BC to 1650 AD.
By contrast, in North America, there are found Equus samples which do indeed appear in the time frame between the last ice age and the arrival of Columbus. The first of these was found in Pratt Cave near El Paso, Texas, by Prof. Ernest Lundelius of Texas A&M University. Prof. Lundelius responded to my inquiries and provided a horse bone from Pratt Cave which dated to BC 6020 - 5890. This date is well since the last ice age, into the time frame when all American horses should have been absent according to the prevailing paradigm.
Another Equus specimen was identified by Elaine Anderson, an expert on Equus identification, at Wolf Spider cave, Colorado. It dated to AD 1260 - 1400, again clearly before Columbus. Note that horses arrived on the new-world mainland with Cortes in 1519 AD [Henry, Marguerite and Wesley Dennis. All About Horses. Random House, 1962.]
Dr. Patricia Fazio of the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, Wyoming, has joined our network of researchers in this field. Dr. Fazio (private communication) alerted us to a horse bone found at Horsethief Cave in Wyoming which dates to approximately 3,124 BP, i.e., 1100 BC, using thermoluminescent methods. We attempted to have this bone re-dated using the AMS methods which are more accurate, but there proved to be insufficient collagen in the bone to permit AMS dating. The 1100 BC date (although approximate) still stands.
Dr. Fazio also pointed to a publication, The Wyoming Archaeologist 38: 55-68, where results of a horse bone found in Wyoming were dated to 1426 - 1481 AD (one sigma calibrated dates) using AMS methods, well before Columbus. The authors express difficulty in explaining this early date:
In addition to this hard physical evidence, a number of researchers are looking seriously into oral histories of native Americans which point rather clearly to the existence of horses before the Spanish arrived. In particular, we note that research results have been published by Yuri Kuckinsky [http://www.globalserve.net/~yuku/tran/thor.htm ] and Claire Henderson [http://printfu.org/horses+north+dakota or http://printfu.org/read/the-aboriginal- ... uT5MzLkq3m" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ]. For example, the Appaloosa horse appears to have been in North America before the Spanish brought European horses.
A January 2012 publication describes progress in DNA analyses of horses which promises to open new avenues for this research:
In conclusion, using state-of-the-art dating methods, we along with other researchers have found radiometrically-dated evidence for the existence of horses in North America long after the last ice age and before the arrival of Columbus. These data challenging the existing paradigm. Further DNA analyses will provide additional data and insights.
Background of Professor Steven E. Jones:
Prof. Steven Jones was a full Professor of Physics at Brigham Young University where he served for over 21 years before his early retirement in 2007. He conducted doctoral research at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center and received his Ph.D. in Physics from Vanderbilt University in 1978. He received his B.S. degree in Physics from Brigham Young University in 1973, where he held a David O. McKay Presidential Scholarship. His research interests include studies in archaeometry, fusion and solar energy. He has published papers in Nature, Scientific American and Physical Review Letters. He taught an advanced class on Archaeometry (Physics 513R) and published, “Archaeometry Applied to Olmec Iron-ore Beads,” BYU Studies 37, no. 4 (Oct. 1998), pp. 128-142. The horse-bone dating project fits very well into Dr. Jones’ long-range plans for research in archaeometry. However, his peer-reviewed papers and experiments challenging the official 9/11 narrative (google “Dr BYU”) proved controversial and he was offered early retirement.
________________________________
Were there Horses in the Americas before Columbus?
Dr. Steven E. Jones
This letter is in response to a request from Wayne May for information regarding my research on early horses (Equus) in the Americas, before the arrival of Columbus. This interim material is shared in order to encourage a wider community to join in the task of gathering further evidence regarding pre-Columbian horses in the Americas, including a request for photos of pictographs, petroglyphs and engravings which may represent pre-Columbian horses.
About twelve years ago, I began a project to seek horse bones from sites in North America and Mesoamerica for the purpose of radiocarbon dating. In this research, I was joined by Prof. Wade Miller of the BYU Department of Geology, archaeologists Joaquin Arroyo-Cabrales and Shelby Saberon, and Patricia M. Fazio of the Buffalo Bill Historical Center. My special thanks to FARMS and ISPART who funded much of the project in years past. We secured horse bones for dating, some directly from the field. Then state-of-the-art radiocarbon dating was performed at Stafford Laboratories in Colorado, the University of California at Riverside, or Beta Analytic in Miami, Florida, employing Accelerator Mass Spectrometer (AMS) dating methods. The reliability of the AMS method of radiocarbon dating of bones is delineated in: Radiocarbon, Volume 34, Number 3, pp. 279-291.
The goal was to provide radiocarbon dates for samples that appeared from depth or other considerations to be pre-Columbian. The time frame of interest can be expressed in terms of “Before Present” by convention and extends from 10,000 BP (thus after the last ice age) to 500 BP (when Spaniards soon after Columbus brought horses to America). The prevailing paradigm holds that there were no horses in the Americas during this time interval; the Book of Mormon and a number of native American oral traditions hold otherwise. The samples in this study can be divided into two categories according to their origins: Mexico, and the United States.
Forty-five Equus samples were obtained in Mexico. Based on AMS dating, there was one sample from the Ice Age period, and six from the post-Columbus period. Other samples had insufficient collagen in the bone to permit dating – collagen protein locks in carbon-14, permitting accurate C-14 dating. Thus, the laboratories require a certain minimum amount of collagen in order to proceed with the dating. There were no Equus samples found in this study in Mesoamerica for the time interval 14,700 BC to 1650 AD.
By contrast, in North America, there are found Equus samples which do indeed appear in the time frame between the last ice age and the arrival of Columbus. The first of these was found in Pratt Cave near El Paso, Texas, by Prof. Ernest Lundelius of Texas A&M University. Prof. Lundelius responded to my inquiries and provided a horse bone from Pratt Cave which dated to BC 6020 - 5890. This date is well since the last ice age, into the time frame when all American horses should have been absent according to the prevailing paradigm.
Another Equus specimen was identified by Elaine Anderson, an expert on Equus identification, at Wolf Spider cave, Colorado. It dated to AD 1260 - 1400, again clearly before Columbus. Note that horses arrived on the new-world mainland with Cortes in 1519 AD [Henry, Marguerite and Wesley Dennis. All About Horses. Random House, 1962.]
Dr. Patricia Fazio of the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, Wyoming, has joined our network of researchers in this field. Dr. Fazio (private communication) alerted us to a horse bone found at Horsethief Cave in Wyoming which dates to approximately 3,124 BP, i.e., 1100 BC, using thermoluminescent methods. We attempted to have this bone re-dated using the AMS methods which are more accurate, but there proved to be insufficient collagen in the bone to permit AMS dating. The 1100 BC date (although approximate) still stands.
Dr. Fazio also pointed to a publication, The Wyoming Archaeologist 38: 55-68, where results of a horse bone found in Wyoming were dated to 1426 - 1481 AD (one sigma calibrated dates) using AMS methods, well before Columbus. The authors express difficulty in explaining this early date:
A paper by Dr. R. Alison notes evidence for horses in Canada dating 900 and 2900 years ago; also in the period of interest:“These radiocarbon dates place the horse skeleton at a very early age for modern horses to have been in Wyoming.”
Thus, there are a half dozen dated Equus samples that date in the time frame 6,000 BC to 1481 AD, well since the last ice age and all before Columbus. Note that all of these radiometrically-dated Equus remains were found in North America.However, the compete extirpation of ancestral horse stock in Canada has yet to be completely confirmed and a bone found near Sutherland, Saskatchewan, at the Riddell archaeological site suggests some horses might have survived much later. The bone (Canadian Museum of Nature I-8581), has been tentatively dated at about 2900 years ago. Another Equus sp. Bone, found at Hemlock Park Farm, Frontenac County, Ontario, dates to about 900 years ago. Exhaustive confirmation of both bones has yet to be completed, but if they prove to be authentic, they comprise evidence that horses survived in Canada into comparatively modern times.
http://members.shaw.ca/save-wild-horses ... Alison.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In addition to this hard physical evidence, a number of researchers are looking seriously into oral histories of native Americans which point rather clearly to the existence of horses before the Spanish arrived. In particular, we note that research results have been published by Yuri Kuckinsky [http://www.globalserve.net/~yuku/tran/thor.htm ] and Claire Henderson [http://printfu.org/horses+north+dakota or http://printfu.org/read/the-aboriginal- ... uT5MzLkq3m" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ]. For example, the Appaloosa horse appears to have been in North America before the Spanish brought European horses.
A January 2012 publication describes progress in DNA analyses of horses which promises to open new avenues for this research:
In particular, the Equus samples that have been identified in North America, anomalous because they date to the “excluded” period between 6,000 BC and 1490 AD, can now be analyzed to determine whether or not the DNA corresponds to domesticated Spanish horses brought over by the Conquistadores. My prediction is that the DNA will not so correspond."In recent years, many scholars have embraced the hypothesis that the Botai or other inhabitants of the Eurasian Steppes became the first people to tame the wild horse, Equus ferus, between 4,000 and 6,000 years ago. This theory implies that horses were domesticated in a similar manner to other modern livestock, such as cattle, sheep and goats, said Alessandro Achilli, a geneticist at the University of Pavia in Italy. DNA analyses have revealed little genetic variation among these animals, suggesting that they descended from a small group of ancestors tamed in just a few places, he explained.
“But when Achilli and a team of fellow researchers collected maternally inherited mitochondrial genomes from living horses in Asia, Europe, the Middle East and the Americas, a strikingly different picture emerged. “We found a high number of different lineages that we were able to identify—at least 18,” said Achilli, a co-author of a paper outlining the findings in the January 30 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences....
“Why would disparate groups in far-flung corners of the globe hatch similar schemes to forge partnerships with their equine neighbors? “The very fact that many wild mares were independently domesticated in different places testifies to how significant horses have been to humankind,” Achilli said....
“The latest findings have the potential to open new avenues for further research into horses both modern and ancient, Achilli said. “Now that a large number of horse lineages have been defined, they could be easily employed not only to analyze other modern breeds, including thoroughbreds, but also to classify ancient remains,” he explained. - http://www.history.com/news/2012/01/30/ ... udy-shows/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In conclusion, using state-of-the-art dating methods, we along with other researchers have found radiometrically-dated evidence for the existence of horses in North America long after the last ice age and before the arrival of Columbus. These data challenging the existing paradigm. Further DNA analyses will provide additional data and insights.
Background of Professor Steven E. Jones:
Prof. Steven Jones was a full Professor of Physics at Brigham Young University where he served for over 21 years before his early retirement in 2007. He conducted doctoral research at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center and received his Ph.D. in Physics from Vanderbilt University in 1978. He received his B.S. degree in Physics from Brigham Young University in 1973, where he held a David O. McKay Presidential Scholarship. His research interests include studies in archaeometry, fusion and solar energy. He has published papers in Nature, Scientific American and Physical Review Letters. He taught an advanced class on Archaeometry (Physics 513R) and published, “Archaeometry Applied to Olmec Iron-ore Beads,” BYU Studies 37, no. 4 (Oct. 1998), pp. 128-142. The horse-bone dating project fits very well into Dr. Jones’ long-range plans for research in archaeometry. However, his peer-reviewed papers and experiments challenging the official 9/11 narrative (google “Dr BYU”) proved controversial and he was offered early retirement.
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BroJones
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Take a close look at those horses... and note how DIFFERENT they are from most modern horses.
The point being, using DNA along with radiocarbon dating, we may be able to PROVE that the horses observed in the Americas before Columbus (say 7000 to 500 before present) were NOT even of the same DNA type brought over by the Spanish!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wildp ... #filelinks
This image was selected as a picture of the day for 4 July 2009(2009-07-04). It was captioned as follows:
English: Wild horses in Erlebnispark Tripsdrill, near Cleebronn, Germany.
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bobhenstra
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Interesting, I've often thought the curly horse was of ancient origin.
Great information Steve, I really appreciate it, I needed a different direction of study for awhile! I'm getting tired of reloading----
Old man feet keep me grounded X(
You and Brad keep me interested!
Bob
Great information Steve, I really appreciate it, I needed a different direction of study for awhile! I'm getting tired of reloading----
Old man feet keep me grounded X( You and Brad keep me interested!
Bob
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marc
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Excellent article, Dr. Jones, thank you! Bob, do you have links to your articles? I'm not sure where to even look and I'd be very interested to read them all. Thanks!
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bobhenstra
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Sure!coachmarc wrote:Excellent article, Dr. Jones, thank you! Bob, do you have links to your articles? I'm not sure where to even look and I'd be very interested to read them all. Thanks!
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... =19&t=5645" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Treatise on Salvation
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4373" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bob
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danjohn
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
I wrote the article at the top of this thread. The date comes from a paper published in a Spanish language scholarly journal of American anthropology. I've been looking for something like this for a long time, but this is the only one I've found. To introduce myself, I am principal author of the upcoming An LDS Guide to the Yucatan. This is our second book. Our first one was An LDS Guide to Mesoamerica. You can read more about my research and papers I've written at my blog: http://www.ldsguide.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; My papers on ancient horses, pre-Columbian metallurgy, gold plates, Mayan names, and more are all free and downloadable as PDFs. The new book with this and more ancient animal info, including photos and source material, should be out as an eBook this summer. Let me know if I can be of any help on this topic,
Daniel Johnson
Daniel Johnson
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bobhenstra
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Fantastic Daniel, welcome to the board! But your link took me to a seemingly anti LDS site! Please explain, and oh that's a nice looking family!danjohn wrote:I wrote the article at the top of this thread. The date comes from a paper published in a Spanish language scholarly journal of American anthropology. I've been looking for something like this for a long time, but this is the only one I've found. To introduce myself, I am principal author of the upcoming An LDS Guide to the Yucatan. This is our second book. Our first one was An LDS Guide to Mesoamerica. You can read more about my research and papers I've written at my blog: http://www.ldsguide.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; My papers on ancient horses, pre-Columbian metallurgy, gold plates, Mayan names, and more are all free and downloadable as PDFs. The new book with this and more ancient animal info, including photos and source material, should be out as an eBook this summer. Let me know if I can be of any help on this topic,
Daniel Johnson
Hmmm, tried the link again and got to your blog, no picture of a family, I suspect your blog is being hacked Danial!
Bob
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danjohn
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Not sure what you mean by being hacked by Danial. That worries me somewhat. But I am excited to share my experiences traveling in Mesoamerica and the research I have done. As I'm working on finishing up our second book, I have found many interesting and relevant pieces of information that don't seem to be well known. My goal is to share them through our books, firesides, my blog, and other sites. Then people can include them in their discussions on Book of Mormon topics.
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bobhenstra
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Misspelled Daniel! OK, the first time I clicked on your link it took me to an anti LDS site, so I got off that site and wrote a post about my experience. Then I decided to click on the link again and it took me to your blog, which I have been reading and enjoying very much. I then corrected my post to let you know what happened. I didn't get the web address off the site your link first took me to, but I'll check my history and see if the link is there and PM you the link.danjohn wrote:Not sure what you mean by being hacked by Danial. That worries me somewhat. But I am excited to share my experiences traveling in Mesoamerica and the research I have done. As I'm working on finishing up our second book, I have found many interesting and relevant pieces of information that don't seem to be well known. My goal is to share them through our books, firesides, my blog, and other sites. Then people can include them in their discussions on Book of Mormon topics.
Really enjoy your blog!
Bob
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danjohn
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
I see what you mean now. I think I misread your post. I have been in touch with Dr. Jones and he sent me his article. I think the topic of ancient horses in the Americas is a fascinating one, because there is a lot of strong evidence, yet not many people seem to know about it. They still keep repeating the same old argument, which really isn't accurate anymore. I would invite everyone out there to look at the articles page on my blog and download my PDF article on horses in the Americas. Any comments and critiques are always welcome.
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BroJones
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Welcome to the forum, Daniel. As we conduct research on the pre-Columbus horse issue, IMO we perform a great service!
PS -- I should add that I believe Moroni deposited the plates in the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, NY, and I'm open-minded regarding the geographical location of Zarahemla (whether Mesoamerica or North America).
PS -- I should add that I believe Moroni deposited the plates in the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, NY, and I'm open-minded regarding the geographical location of Zarahemla (whether Mesoamerica or North America).
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danjohn
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
I think it's pretty obvious that Moroni buried the plates in a hill that was to be in New York and that was later called Cumorah by the latter-day saints. As far as locations actually mentioned in the Book of Mormon account, I think the weight of evidence points to Mesoamerica, but our picture is incomplete. We never know what additional secrets may yet be uncovered.
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bobhenstra
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Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Book of Mormon Parallels vs Book of Mormon Convergences
by Tyler Livingston
April, 2012
For years, parallels have been drawn between The Book of Mormon and ancient cultures as evidence of the historicity of The Book of Mormon. Parallels have been drawn from the Old World, Mesoamerica in the New World, Book of Mormon rituals, dress, etc… with The Book of Mormon, that when looked at together makes a strong case for its divine authenticity. Recently, however, instead of putting emphasis on parallels between The Book of Mormon and ancient American cultures, scholars have taken it one step further and begun to put more focus on convergences and The Book of Mormon.
Brant Gardner first began this journey in 2006 when he presented a paper at the FAIR conference titled “Defenders of the Book: Surveying the New World Evidence for Book of Mormon Historicity.”1 Lawrence Poulsen continued the work on Book of Mormon convergences and reported his findings in his 2008 FAIR Conference presentation “Book of Mormon Geography.”2
A convergence is described as “Whenever the two sources or ‘witnesses’ [text and archaeology] happen to converge in their testimony, a historical ‘datum’ (or given) may be said to have been established beyond reasonable doubt. To ignore or to deny the implications of such convergent testimony is irresponsible scholarship, since it impeaches the testimony of one witness without reasonable cause by suppressing other vital evidence.” 3
A convergence is not only a parallel between two items, but a correlation between text, time, culture, and sometimes even geography, that converge together and testify of the same thing. It is the connecting of dots from hints found in The Book of Mormon and with archaeology until a masterful picture begins to emerge from the text. A convergence stands on its own and is a more complex, powerful witness of the authenticity of the text than a simple parallel.
An example of a convergence can be found in the text concerning Hermounts. Hermounts is mentioned in Alma 2:37-38 and reads “Yea, they were met on every hand, and slain and driven, until they were scattered on the west, and on the north, until they had reached the wilderness, which was called Hermounts; and it was that part of the wilderness which was infested by wild and ravenous beasts.” “And it came to pass that many died in the wilderness of their wounds, and were devoured by those beasts and also the vultures of the air; and their bones have been found, and have been heaped up on the earth.”
Hugh Nibley made the connection between Hermounts in The Book of Mormon and Egypt when he wrote:
“Now where does the word Hermounts come from? This is certainly not a Latin word. It's not a Greek word, a Hebrew word, or a Semitic word. Where was it? It was the land on the borders that was infested at times by wild beasts, at certain seasons of the year. It was way up in the borders. They went way up there. So it is the Egyptian word hr-Mntw, obviously. Month or Monthis was the Egyptian Pan; he was the god of wild places, wild animals, and the wild country. Hr-Mntw was the outmost part of Egypt where the land was sometimes visited by lions and crocodiles and things like that. It was under cultivation, but it was a place that was in danger from animals. They called it hr-Mntw because it was Month's country, wild animal country.”4
A connection can also be made between Mesoamerica and The Book of Mormon. Hermounts was a place that was overrun with wild beasts, Mormon even believed it necessary to add “ravenous beasts”. Tehuantepec would seem to fit this description nicely, as the Nahuatl word for Tehuantepec literally means “hill of the Jaguar”, or hill of the wild beast. Lawrence Poulsen writes “The almost exact correlation in meaning for Tehuantepec and Hermounts suggests that the wilderness of Tehuantepec is an ideal candidate for the Book of Mormon wilderness of Hermounts.”5 Another interesting point is that the jaguars, or “wild beasts” of Tehuantepec were known to be more ravenous than other jaguars. There is a legend about the hill which Tehuantepec is built contained “Jaguars of a particularly bloodthirsty type infested the hill, killing and terrorizing the inhabitants.”6 It would make sense that Mormon made it a point to say that this area was “infested by wild and ravenous beasts” and “devoured” human flesh, if in fact, it was the same area. Hermounts is an interesting parallel that provides some insight as to the origin of the name, and possible reason it was given that name. But alone this insight cannot be used as a strong evidence of The Book of Mormon unlike a convergence would.
Another example can be found in Alma 25. The story of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies, as described by Brant Gardner, is one that doesn’t make much sense in the present form. But, when viewed through the lens of Mesoamerican culture, makes perfect sense. In this story, we have a group of people who converted to the Lord and then, because of their new religion, covenanted no longer to commit “murder” and buried their weapons of war in the ground. Later, the Lamanites attacked the city in an effort to destroy the king and “place another in his stead.”7 The Anti-Nephi-Lehies would not take up their arms they buried in the earth to defend themselves, and in consequence, many were slaughtered. The Lamanites were angry and redirected their warpath to the city of Ammonihah, which was a three days journey. It would seem to me that no matter how mad you were, you’d calm down after hiking through the jungles for three days, but they continued to Ammonihah and took captives. It is interesting that this is the only place in The Book of Mormon where it is specifically mentioned that the Lamanites took captives.8 Usually the Lamanites destroy the city or place it under a tribute system.
When looked at in a Mesoamerican culture, this story makes perfect sense. Why did the Anti-Nephi-Lehies bury their weapons? There is a Mesoamerican tradition of caching goods you have given to the gods, when you make a commitment to the gods, you bury the offering in the earth. Most of the time when you cached an item in Mesoamerica, you broke it first. So they broke the weapons and buried them. Why didn’t they dig them up? They were broken. They were symbolically broken as a witness you were giving them over to God.9 In regards to the Lamanites, Brant Gardner relates:“As part of the coronation of a new king in Mesoamerica “the king went to war to take captives for use in sacrificial rituals.”
The attacking Lamanites had dethroned Lamoni’s brother (King Anti-Nephi-Lehi) and must install a new king. For this particular ritual they needed sacrificial victims who have been taken in battle. The pacifism of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies had denied the right kind of captives; hence, the Lamanites had to find someone who would actually fight back and therefore, they set their sights on Ammonihah. But why Ammonihah?
Martin and Grube help us understand why the sneak attack on an unsuspecting Ammonihah would have been attractive to the Mesoamerican mind:
“Like many a Maya ruler, Bird Jaguar’s mystique was closely bound to his image as an indomitable warrior. His favorite military titles, ‘He of 20 Captives’ and ‘Master of Aj Uk,’ were seldom absent for his name phrase and much space was devoted to his various campaigns. Yet a modern understanding of these texts shows just how lowly most of these victims were. He made immense capital out of minor successes and Yaxchilan’s reputation was a ‘conquest state’ only reflects how beguiling his efforts have proved.”
The Lamanites were not full of blood lust as Mormon suggests. They were in dire need of war captives to make their coronation ceremony valid. To get them with as little risk as possible, they did what Bird Jaguar would later do—they looked for easy victims. Ammonihah looked like a quick easy conquest—far enough away to be unsuspecting.”10
Convergences bring The Book of Mormon, archaeology, and Mesoamerican culture together as one and are a stronger evidence than a simple parallel. What is more interesting is the work that has been previously published which includes geography in the convergence. By adding the geography factor, we can place The Book of Mormon events on a physical map, which interestingly enough, fits into a Mesoamerican topography very well.
If we begin to look for more convergences between the text, archaeology, geography, and anthropology, we will be able to strengthen the case of The Book of Mormon and successfully place it in a physical geography, and continue building the case for a Mesoamerican setting.11
Notes:
1 http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploa ... ardner.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2 http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploa ... oulsen.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knw0pl8Ifsc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3 William Dever, What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know it? (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2001) pg. 107
4. Teachings of the Book of Mormon, lecture 44, p. 242. He also wrote “Hermounts in The Book of Mormon is the wild country of the borderlands, the hunting grounds, “that part of the wilderness which was infested by wild and ravenous beasts” (Alma 2:37). The equivalent of such a district in Egypt is Hermonthis, the land of Month, the Egyptian Pan—the god of wild places and things. Hermounts and Hermonthis are close enough to satisfy the most exacting philogist. The Egyptian Month of Hermonthis was an extremely popular figure in Lehi’s day, to judge by the great frequency with which his name occurs in composition of proper names in various forms:Montu, Mendes, Menti, etc; it is the Book of Mormon Manti, next to Ammon the commonest name element in the Nephite onomasticon.” (Hugh Nibley, Since Cumorah (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1967), 192)
5. Dr. Poulsen adds “A line drawn from this wilderness to the headwaters of the Grijalva River intersects with the Grijalva River near the ruins of Santa Rosa and never comes near the Usamacinta River except at its headwaters. The probable identification of Tehuantepec with Hermounts gives strong support to Sorenson's identification of the Grijalva River as the Book of Mormon river Sidon.” (The light is better over here” Lawrence Poulsen, FARMS Review 19:2 pg
6. Miguel Covarrubias, Mexico south: The Isthmus of Tehuantepec, (Routledge, 1986) pg. 153
7. Alma 24:20.
8. Alma 16:3-6.
9. Taken from a recent fireside given by Brant Gardner and published on FAIR’s Youtube site. Part 1 of 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooSo4gUl ... 91823FC24C.." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Brant Gardner, Second Witness: Analytical & Contextual Commentary on The Book of Mormon, (Greg Koffard Books, Salt Lake City, 2007) 4:358; Shirley Boteler Mock, “Prelude,” in “The Sowing and the Dawning: Termination, Dedication, and Transformation in the Archaeological and Ethnographical Record of Mesoamerica, edited by Shirley Boteler Mock (Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1998), 5.
10. Brant Gardner, Second Witness: Analytical & Contextual Commentary on The Book of Mormon, (Greg Koffard Books, Salt Lake City, 2007) pg 4:367
11 For more convergences: http://bomgeography.poulsenll.org/tales.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bob
by Tyler Livingston
April, 2012
For years, parallels have been drawn between The Book of Mormon and ancient cultures as evidence of the historicity of The Book of Mormon. Parallels have been drawn from the Old World, Mesoamerica in the New World, Book of Mormon rituals, dress, etc… with The Book of Mormon, that when looked at together makes a strong case for its divine authenticity. Recently, however, instead of putting emphasis on parallels between The Book of Mormon and ancient American cultures, scholars have taken it one step further and begun to put more focus on convergences and The Book of Mormon.
Brant Gardner first began this journey in 2006 when he presented a paper at the FAIR conference titled “Defenders of the Book: Surveying the New World Evidence for Book of Mormon Historicity.”1 Lawrence Poulsen continued the work on Book of Mormon convergences and reported his findings in his 2008 FAIR Conference presentation “Book of Mormon Geography.”2
A convergence is described as “Whenever the two sources or ‘witnesses’ [text and archaeology] happen to converge in their testimony, a historical ‘datum’ (or given) may be said to have been established beyond reasonable doubt. To ignore or to deny the implications of such convergent testimony is irresponsible scholarship, since it impeaches the testimony of one witness without reasonable cause by suppressing other vital evidence.” 3
A convergence is not only a parallel between two items, but a correlation between text, time, culture, and sometimes even geography, that converge together and testify of the same thing. It is the connecting of dots from hints found in The Book of Mormon and with archaeology until a masterful picture begins to emerge from the text. A convergence stands on its own and is a more complex, powerful witness of the authenticity of the text than a simple parallel.
An example of a convergence can be found in the text concerning Hermounts. Hermounts is mentioned in Alma 2:37-38 and reads “Yea, they were met on every hand, and slain and driven, until they were scattered on the west, and on the north, until they had reached the wilderness, which was called Hermounts; and it was that part of the wilderness which was infested by wild and ravenous beasts.” “And it came to pass that many died in the wilderness of their wounds, and were devoured by those beasts and also the vultures of the air; and their bones have been found, and have been heaped up on the earth.”
Hugh Nibley made the connection between Hermounts in The Book of Mormon and Egypt when he wrote:
“Now where does the word Hermounts come from? This is certainly not a Latin word. It's not a Greek word, a Hebrew word, or a Semitic word. Where was it? It was the land on the borders that was infested at times by wild beasts, at certain seasons of the year. It was way up in the borders. They went way up there. So it is the Egyptian word hr-Mntw, obviously. Month or Monthis was the Egyptian Pan; he was the god of wild places, wild animals, and the wild country. Hr-Mntw was the outmost part of Egypt where the land was sometimes visited by lions and crocodiles and things like that. It was under cultivation, but it was a place that was in danger from animals. They called it hr-Mntw because it was Month's country, wild animal country.”4
A connection can also be made between Mesoamerica and The Book of Mormon. Hermounts was a place that was overrun with wild beasts, Mormon even believed it necessary to add “ravenous beasts”. Tehuantepec would seem to fit this description nicely, as the Nahuatl word for Tehuantepec literally means “hill of the Jaguar”, or hill of the wild beast. Lawrence Poulsen writes “The almost exact correlation in meaning for Tehuantepec and Hermounts suggests that the wilderness of Tehuantepec is an ideal candidate for the Book of Mormon wilderness of Hermounts.”5 Another interesting point is that the jaguars, or “wild beasts” of Tehuantepec were known to be more ravenous than other jaguars. There is a legend about the hill which Tehuantepec is built contained “Jaguars of a particularly bloodthirsty type infested the hill, killing and terrorizing the inhabitants.”6 It would make sense that Mormon made it a point to say that this area was “infested by wild and ravenous beasts” and “devoured” human flesh, if in fact, it was the same area. Hermounts is an interesting parallel that provides some insight as to the origin of the name, and possible reason it was given that name. But alone this insight cannot be used as a strong evidence of The Book of Mormon unlike a convergence would.
Another example can be found in Alma 25. The story of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies, as described by Brant Gardner, is one that doesn’t make much sense in the present form. But, when viewed through the lens of Mesoamerican culture, makes perfect sense. In this story, we have a group of people who converted to the Lord and then, because of their new religion, covenanted no longer to commit “murder” and buried their weapons of war in the ground. Later, the Lamanites attacked the city in an effort to destroy the king and “place another in his stead.”7 The Anti-Nephi-Lehies would not take up their arms they buried in the earth to defend themselves, and in consequence, many were slaughtered. The Lamanites were angry and redirected their warpath to the city of Ammonihah, which was a three days journey. It would seem to me that no matter how mad you were, you’d calm down after hiking through the jungles for three days, but they continued to Ammonihah and took captives. It is interesting that this is the only place in The Book of Mormon where it is specifically mentioned that the Lamanites took captives.8 Usually the Lamanites destroy the city or place it under a tribute system.
When looked at in a Mesoamerican culture, this story makes perfect sense. Why did the Anti-Nephi-Lehies bury their weapons? There is a Mesoamerican tradition of caching goods you have given to the gods, when you make a commitment to the gods, you bury the offering in the earth. Most of the time when you cached an item in Mesoamerica, you broke it first. So they broke the weapons and buried them. Why didn’t they dig them up? They were broken. They were symbolically broken as a witness you were giving them over to God.9 In regards to the Lamanites, Brant Gardner relates:“As part of the coronation of a new king in Mesoamerica “the king went to war to take captives for use in sacrificial rituals.”
The attacking Lamanites had dethroned Lamoni’s brother (King Anti-Nephi-Lehi) and must install a new king. For this particular ritual they needed sacrificial victims who have been taken in battle. The pacifism of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies had denied the right kind of captives; hence, the Lamanites had to find someone who would actually fight back and therefore, they set their sights on Ammonihah. But why Ammonihah?
Martin and Grube help us understand why the sneak attack on an unsuspecting Ammonihah would have been attractive to the Mesoamerican mind:
“Like many a Maya ruler, Bird Jaguar’s mystique was closely bound to his image as an indomitable warrior. His favorite military titles, ‘He of 20 Captives’ and ‘Master of Aj Uk,’ were seldom absent for his name phrase and much space was devoted to his various campaigns. Yet a modern understanding of these texts shows just how lowly most of these victims were. He made immense capital out of minor successes and Yaxchilan’s reputation was a ‘conquest state’ only reflects how beguiling his efforts have proved.”
The Lamanites were not full of blood lust as Mormon suggests. They were in dire need of war captives to make their coronation ceremony valid. To get them with as little risk as possible, they did what Bird Jaguar would later do—they looked for easy victims. Ammonihah looked like a quick easy conquest—far enough away to be unsuspecting.”10
Convergences bring The Book of Mormon, archaeology, and Mesoamerican culture together as one and are a stronger evidence than a simple parallel. What is more interesting is the work that has been previously published which includes geography in the convergence. By adding the geography factor, we can place The Book of Mormon events on a physical map, which interestingly enough, fits into a Mesoamerican topography very well.
If we begin to look for more convergences between the text, archaeology, geography, and anthropology, we will be able to strengthen the case of The Book of Mormon and successfully place it in a physical geography, and continue building the case for a Mesoamerican setting.11
Notes:
1 http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploa ... ardner.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2 http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploa ... oulsen.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knw0pl8Ifsc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3 William Dever, What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know it? (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2001) pg. 107
4. Teachings of the Book of Mormon, lecture 44, p. 242. He also wrote “Hermounts in The Book of Mormon is the wild country of the borderlands, the hunting grounds, “that part of the wilderness which was infested by wild and ravenous beasts” (Alma 2:37). The equivalent of such a district in Egypt is Hermonthis, the land of Month, the Egyptian Pan—the god of wild places and things. Hermounts and Hermonthis are close enough to satisfy the most exacting philogist. The Egyptian Month of Hermonthis was an extremely popular figure in Lehi’s day, to judge by the great frequency with which his name occurs in composition of proper names in various forms:Montu, Mendes, Menti, etc; it is the Book of Mormon Manti, next to Ammon the commonest name element in the Nephite onomasticon.” (Hugh Nibley, Since Cumorah (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1967), 192)
5. Dr. Poulsen adds “A line drawn from this wilderness to the headwaters of the Grijalva River intersects with the Grijalva River near the ruins of Santa Rosa and never comes near the Usamacinta River except at its headwaters. The probable identification of Tehuantepec with Hermounts gives strong support to Sorenson's identification of the Grijalva River as the Book of Mormon river Sidon.” (The light is better over here” Lawrence Poulsen, FARMS Review 19:2 pg
6. Miguel Covarrubias, Mexico south: The Isthmus of Tehuantepec, (Routledge, 1986) pg. 153
7. Alma 24:20.
8. Alma 16:3-6.
9. Taken from a recent fireside given by Brant Gardner and published on FAIR’s Youtube site. Part 1 of 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooSo4gUl ... 91823FC24C.." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Brant Gardner, Second Witness: Analytical & Contextual Commentary on The Book of Mormon, (Greg Koffard Books, Salt Lake City, 2007) 4:358; Shirley Boteler Mock, “Prelude,” in “The Sowing and the Dawning: Termination, Dedication, and Transformation in the Archaeological and Ethnographical Record of Mesoamerica, edited by Shirley Boteler Mock (Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1998), 5.
10. Brant Gardner, Second Witness: Analytical & Contextual Commentary on The Book of Mormon, (Greg Koffard Books, Salt Lake City, 2007) pg 4:367
11 For more convergences: http://bomgeography.poulsenll.org/tales.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bob
-
Kolob Revenge
- Hi, I'm new.
- Posts: 9
Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Hi, Steve. Any update on your Equus research? Have you had any reaction from the paleontology/archeology community? You mentioned DNA comparison, has that gone anywhere?BroJones wrote:Great question, my friend. In fact, I completed an article on my research (with others) on Equus bones in the Americas on Feb 28th 2012. The paper should be published fairly soon... but I see that you would like answers about this research sooner, so I will see if I can get the content published here in the next few days...
Thanks again for the question!
Thanks!
-
BroJones
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 8247
- Location: Varies.
- Contact:
Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Hi, everyone. Lots of water flowing under the bridge!
As my wife and I have returned from our mission to New Jersey (NJMM, inner city), I'm trying to get back into research.
Whew! Lots to do, and learn!
I'm still very interested in studies regarding Equus in early America. Is anyone here interested?
As my wife and I have returned from our mission to New Jersey (NJMM, inner city), I'm trying to get back into research.
Whew! Lots to do, and learn!
I'm still very interested in studies regarding Equus in early America. Is anyone here interested?
-
inho
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3286
- Location: in a galaxy far, far away
Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Not interested enough to start to research it myself. But when you study that, please share with us what you learn!
-
davedan
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3064
- Location: Augusta, GA
- Contact:
Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
Welcome back!!
It would be very interesting to see if the Native American “pinto” is gentically distinct from the Spanish and Arabian.
It would be very interesting to see if the Native American “pinto” is gentically distinct from the Spanish and Arabian.
-
erichard
- captain of 50
- Posts: 86
- Location: Texas
- Contact:
Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
I know that Del Dowdell would be interested. He has the blog nephicode.blogspot.com and is very knowledgeable. You would probably have to deal with him through email though.
His model is the Andes with the Amazon underwater before Christ. Before you scoff, you really should go through this 30 post series that overviews the many strong points it has: https://goo.gl/fP1yCS
To go to the next entry in this series you have to use the Menu on the right side of the webpage.
Here is something in his blog about Equus:
http://nephicode.blogspot.com/2017/08/a ... -part.html
-
larsenb
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10912
- Location: Between here and Standing Rock
Re: Steve Jones, did you have anything--
His comment that "Lehi never saw Mesoamerica", is a bit blatant. And it's silly to start out w/a negative proposition as a true statement, anyway.
And in his article he says:
The peats had all the characteristics of modern day tundra and all the microfauna contained in same. I did a paper on this for a class at Stanford. The point being is that you can't develop tundra-like peats under the sea. They developed during glacial low-stands of the ocean in that area. I.e., the land bridge was real
I also sent the samples from these peats out for RC dating for Dr. C. Hans Nelson. Dates came back of approximately 11 K years BP, and ~34 K years BP. There may have been a 3rd peat layer, as well, that produced dates between these two. My memory fades over the decades.
One of our associates was Dr. David Hopkins who wrote the book titled Beringia, published by Stanford press, as I recall. He may have had a co-author on this.
In the book and from personal communication w/Hopkins, he talks about an unusual phenomenon in Alaska during the ice ages; the existence of what they called a 'refugium'. The refugium sheltered a lot of ice age animals during the heavier glaciation in the rest of the country. This, along w/the existence of exposed tundra on the land bridge, strongly implies that the ice coverage for the area may have been more seasonal. Which of course would allow the area to be used as a land bridge.
Perhaps warmer Pacific waters was the cause of the 'refugium' (Alaska current?)
The horses mouth. I was there. Which experience makes me very cautious about anything else, Del may have to say.
And in his article he says:
Actually it has been proved geologically. I've had the odd distinction of being on USGS ships coring the Bering Sea shelf, and was present when vibracoring penetrated peats at 2 or 3 different layers in a 12 ft core sample from bottom sediments. The bottom was about 20-60 meters deep, as I recall.Enter the infamous and so-called Siberian Land Bridge. While it is claimed that man came across that Land Bridge, which the anthropologist claims is a fact, but in geology has not been so proven, for there is no solid indication that a land bridge ever existed. But that does not stop the scientist from claiming that while man came from east to west across it, that the horse went from west to east across it.
The peats had all the characteristics of modern day tundra and all the microfauna contained in same. I did a paper on this for a class at Stanford. The point being is that you can't develop tundra-like peats under the sea. They developed during glacial low-stands of the ocean in that area. I.e., the land bridge was real
I also sent the samples from these peats out for RC dating for Dr. C. Hans Nelson. Dates came back of approximately 11 K years BP, and ~34 K years BP. There may have been a 3rd peat layer, as well, that produced dates between these two. My memory fades over the decades.
One of our associates was Dr. David Hopkins who wrote the book titled Beringia, published by Stanford press, as I recall. He may have had a co-author on this.
In the book and from personal communication w/Hopkins, he talks about an unusual phenomenon in Alaska during the ice ages; the existence of what they called a 'refugium'. The refugium sheltered a lot of ice age animals during the heavier glaciation in the rest of the country. This, along w/the existence of exposed tundra on the land bridge, strongly implies that the ice coverage for the area may have been more seasonal. Which of course would allow the area to be used as a land bridge.
Perhaps warmer Pacific waters was the cause of the 'refugium' (Alaska current?)
The horses mouth. I was there. Which experience makes me very cautious about anything else, Del may have to say.
