Who Has Experienced Baptism by Fire & Holy Ghost?

[Seeker]

Following the Heavenly Gift section has really made me wonder about this.

NOTE: At the beginning of this new week, I thought I would try to bump this poll back to the top and see if it might attract more interest.

Thanks to those who have participated so far. I find the small sampling of results and the post comments to be very interesting.

Although as far as I can tell baptism by fire and the holy ghost is a primary doctrine of the church and essential to salvation, it does not appear that there is a clear understanding or any kind of consensus about what it means. To me, this is both troubling and more than a little interesting.

What is also interesting is that less than half as many people on LDSFF seem to be interested in such an important topic as are interested in a superficial question like how many spouses participate in LDSFF (where over 30 people have responded so far, with 20 responses before I edited the poll), compared to 13 so far on this poll. This is also reflected in the number of views.

Would any of those who have had the wonderful blessing of experiencing baptism by fire and the holy ghost be willing to share their experiences?

[LukeAir2008]

All members of the Church of Jesus Christ are entitled to baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost. This gift is conferred upon them when they are confirmed members of the Church of Jesus Christ. If members of the Church do not experience this then I imagine it will be due to a compensating error in their lives. Lack of sincerity, faith, repentance, worthiness, understanding, failure to recognise spiritual manifestations. Why would God confer a gift upon you and then trick you by witholding the gift promised? The Gift is conferred but we must accept it and take it.

Fire and the Holy Ghost. Elder Loren C Dunn. Ensign June 1995.

In preparation for the coming ministry of the Savior on earth, John the Baptist, the forerunner of the Lord, announced as he was preaching in the wilderness of Judea, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire” (Matt. 3:11). This refers to the gift of the Holy Ghost, which must be conferred by one holding the higher priesthood, or authority, which was embodied in the Savior.

The use of the word fire suggests that those who receive this gift with the right heart can expect something more than mere acceptance of certain principles or even baptism by immersion. The use of this expression elsewhere in scripture bears this out.

While conferring the Holy Ghost in connection with the Savior’s baptism is mentioned in all four gospels, only two of them (Matt. 3:11 and Luke 3:16) mention baptism with fire and the Holy Ghost. Mark records John the Baptist as saying, “I indeed have baptized you with water: but he [Jesus Christ] shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost” (Mark 1:8). In the Gospel of John we read: “John [the Baptist] answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; he it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose. … The same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost” (John 1:26–27, 33). However, the Prophet Joseph Smith restored the expression “fire and the Holy Ghost” in his inspired version to the accounts of Mark and John as well (see JST, Mark 1:8; JST, John 1:28).

While one definition of this expression refers to a cleansing by the Holy Spirit as if by fire, still the scriptures and the writings of the prophets indicate there is something more.

The new convert who has accepted the gift of the Holy Ghost with the right spirit will experience not only a cleansing but a feeling that will give him a new heart and make of him a new person. Sometimes this is immediate, and sometimes it happens over a period of time. But always there is a change for the better. For the longer-standing member of the Church who has become preoccupied with the world or in little ways has allowed his religious life to be more procedural than of the spirit, there is something to be rediscovered (and for some, discovered for the first time) with the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.

Jesus Christ when teaching made it clear that while his authorized servants can confer the gift of the Holy Ghost, he is the one who actually bestows the Spirit: “Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants; and unto them I have given power that they may baptize you with water; and after that ye are baptized with water, behold, I will baptize you with fire and with the Holy Ghost” (3 Ne. 12:1).

An early Church leader, Charles W. Penrose, said that when the elders laid their hands upon his head, he received the Holy Ghost—“the spirit of revelation, the spirit of prophecy, the same that makes manifest the things of the Father and of the Son.” He said he knew that he received the Spirit; and it was with him from the time of his baptism, “a light to my feet and a lamp to my path; a joy to my soul; opening up the things of God; bearing witness of the truth of this work; and that spirit has led me to righteousness, to truth, to purity of character, and would rebuke me when I attempted to do anything wrong, and encouraged me in performing my duty. And I have ever been ready … to build up this work, because I know it is divine.”1

The power of that soul-changing experience was the strength that established this latter-day work.

Elder John Taylor of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles called it the “fire of truth,” and, speaking to the Saints in 1872, said that “when the elders came and preached unto you it was something like the position of Paul of old—’Their words came … with power and demonstration and with the Holy Ghost,’ and their words and testimony and spirit responded to that spirit which was in your bosoms, and you hailed their testimony as a message of light, and you obeyed it: you went forth into the waters of baptism amid the scorn, contumely, reproach and contempt of the world. … Inspired by the fire of truth you braved the whole of it. … Hence we are here assembled, as on this occasion to day, not by our own wisdom and intelligence, not by the intelligence of the world; … but by the intelligence and inspiration of the Lord of hosts … and by the Spirit of God attending the administration of his elders; and you have known, and comprehended and realized for yourselves the truths which you believed in.”2

The miracle of the manifestation of fire and the Holy Ghost has the capacity to reach within a person’s heart. While that person may have been a bystander regarding the things of God, the power of the Spirit is able to turn such a person into a living witness of this sacred work.

Said President George Q. Cannon: “You can testify because you have received—if you live as you should do—a testimony independent of that which we can give to you, or any argument that we may urge—you have received it, if you have received it properly, from our Eternal Father. You received it in answer to prayer, direct to yourselves—not through any intermediate source, not through any man, but through the Eternal Spirit of our Father descending upon you and bearing witness to you—a testimony that these things are true. You, therefore, are living witnesses of the truth of these things, and know for yourselves whether they are true or not.”3

The scriptures, and even our church history, record miraculous instances when visible flames encircled the humble followers of Christ—literal manifestations of fire and the Holy Ghost—but more often this fire works quietly and unseen in the hearts of those who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

To the Book of Mormon Apostles, the Savior said, “Blessed are they who shall believe in your words, and come down into the depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins” (3 Ne. 12:2). “Thus has it been in all ages, and thus is it in our day,” said Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. “After baptism in water, legal administrators lay their hands upon a repentant person and say: ‘Receive the Holy Ghost.’ This gives him the gift of the Holy Ghost, which is the right to the constant companionship of that member of the Godhead based on faithfulness. Either then or later, depending upon the individual’s personal worthiness, the Holy Ghost comes. The baptized person becomes a new creature. He is baptized with fire, sin and evil are burned out of his soul, and he is born again.”4

The witness, the change, the cleansing that comes gradually is no less powerful to the person with the right heart, and he or she is impelled to action whether the experience was a sudden, miraculous manifestation or the quiet workings of the Spirit. “Behold, he changed their hearts; yea, he awakened them out of a deep sleep, and they awoke unto God. Behold, they were in the midst of darkness; nevertheless, their souls were illuminated by the light of the everlasting word” (Alma 5:7).

In describing the baptism of the Holy Ghost and of fire, Elder LeGrand Richards of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said that when he was a young boy growing up in Tooele, Utah, his Sunday School teacher taught of John the Baptist’s assurance that the Savior would baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire (see Luke 3:16). “I couldn’t imagine what that fire meant when I was a boy but I have lived long enough to know. I have been lifted beyond my own natural abilities under the influence and power of the Spirit of the Lord as I have borne witness of the truth of this gospel upon many occasions until it is a part of my very being.”5

President Harold B. Lee said that to be born again means to be quickened in the inner man. He quoted from Moses 6:66 about Adam and his baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, it being the “record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever.” He further said he felt certain that the meaning of this was found in 1 Corinthians 12:3 [1 Cor. 12:3]: “‘No man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say [the Prophet Joseph Smith said that should have been, “no man can know”] that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.’”6

A worthy person who receives the gift of the Holy Ghost can expect something in addition to testimony. This is pointed out by Elder Marion G. Romney of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, who gave a definition of the difference between testimony and conversion:

“A testimony comes when the Holy Ghost gives the earnest seeker a witness of the truth. A moving testimony vitalizes faith; that is, it induces repentance and obedience to the commandments. Conversion, on the other hand, is the fruit of, or the reward for, repentance and obedience. (Of course one’s testimony continues to increase as he is converted.)

“Conversion is effected by divine forgiveness, which remits sins. The sequence is something like this. An honest seeker hears the message. He asks the Lord in prayer if it is true. The Holy Spirit gives him a witness. This is a testimony. If one’s testimony is strong enough, he repents and obeys the commandments. By such obedience he receives divine forgiveness which remits sin. Thus he is converted to a newness of life. His spirit is healed.”7

The progress from testimony to the fire of conversion is outlined in these words by Mormon:

“And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;

“And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God” (Moro. 8:25–26).

A definition of sanctification also helps point out that there is something more when a person can qualify for the fire of the Holy Spirit and endure to the end. “Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit by which he who is justified is enabled to keep the Commandments of God and grow in holiness (see Hel. 3:35).”8

Sanctification comes from heaven and only comes as the Holy Ghost begins to work within a person. In some instances, people seem to grow into these blessings. Sometimes the glimmer of the Spirit is enough to lead people to baptism, but they can falter if they do not cultivate the gift and fire of the Spirit that has been bestowed upon them.

Consider the experience of an early convert, Luman Andros Shurtliff, who went to Kirtland to see if the Church was true and ended up getting baptized. Following baptism, he nearly faltered until the converting power of the Spirit entered his life.

“In the morning I went to the office and bought a Book of Mormon and started [home], intending to get onto the stage road as soon as I could. … Soon my thoughts ran thus. I had [been] to Kirtland and was on my return. I knew that some of the neighbors had partially known my feeling and were watching me, and as soon as I got [home] would ask me questions relative to my discoveries, and what I had learned about the [Latter-day Saints]. What could I tell them? I could tell them I had been [baptized] and confirmed a member of the … Church, and what evidence have I obtained more than I had years ago? Not any. Have I received the Holy Ghost since I was [baptized]? No more [than] when I was [baptized] before. Did I believe the Book of Mormon? No more [than] I did four years ago. Do I believe that Joseph Smith Jun. is a Prophet of God? No, I do not. At this I was shocked at my situation and began to call on the Lord in earnest. And while I was praying, something came on my head … and passed gradually down through my whole system, removing all pain and made me a sound man from the top of my head to the soles of my feet. As soon as this was past, I heard a … voice above me say, ‘Joseph Smith, Jun. is a Prophet of the Most High God, raised up for the restoration of Israel in these last days, and the Book of Mormon which you hold under your arm is true and brought forth for the restitution of the scattered remnants of Jacob.’ … I was in the road a sound man praising God.”9

What creates the setting so that fire and the Holy Ghost might be sent from heaven to bless the lives of members? It comes by following the scriptures and the teachings of the leaders of the Church. Here are a few examples:

President Howard W. Hunter: “Developing spirituality … will not happen by chance, but is accomplished only through deliberate effort and by calling upon God and keeping his commandments.”10

President Gordon B. Hinckley: “I feel deeply that far too few of our converts have read the Book of Mormon. I feel that far too few have any understanding of the history of the Church. … Those we teach need the Spirit and the conversion power of that great and sacred volume [the Book of Mormon].”11

President Thomas S. Monson, First Counselor in the First Presidency: “The spiritual nature within us should not be dominated by the physical. It behooves each of us to remember who he or she is and what God expects him or her to become.”12

President Boyd K. Packer, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: “The Holy Ghost communicates with the spirit through the mind more than through the physical senses. This guidance comes as thoughts, as feelings, through impressions and promptings. It is not always easy to describe inspiration. The scriptures teach us that we may ‘feel’ the words of spiritual communication more than hear them, and see with spiritual rather than with mortal eyes.”13

President Spencer W. Kimball: “Nothing builds spirituality … more than regular temple attendance.”14

President Kimball: “The gift of the Holy Ghost grows with worthiness. If you are baptized when you are eight years old, of course you are a child, and there is much you would not be expected to know. But the Holy Ghost comes to you as you grow and learn and make yourselves worthy. It comes a little at a time as you merit it. And as your life is in harmony, you gradually receive the Holy Ghost in a great measure.”15

President Marion G. Romney, former Second Counselor in the First Presidency: “The purpose of the sacrament is to promote the maintenance of spirituality.”16

“Have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts? …

“Can ye feel so now?” (Alma 5:14, 26.)

How does a person know when he or she truly has received the witness of the Holy Ghost? The person will know it by how he or she feels (see Mosiah 5). The Spirit will touch a person who may have been passive in the drama of life and make of him or her a witness to the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and all it stands for. As Elder Marion G. Romney said, “No person whose soul is illuminated by the burning Spirit of God can … remain passive. He is driven by an irresistible urge to fit himself to be an active agent of God in furthering righteousness and in freeing the lives and minds of men from the bondage of sin.”17

There is also a sense of unity that comes with the outpouring of the Spirit. As one becomes united with the Spirit, he or she also becomes united with fellow members and leaders—“fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God” (Eph. 2:19).

If the Spirit is not in a member’s life, he or she should review the qualities just mentioned to see what is missing. “Spirituality is not a function of occupation or calling,” said Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. “Spirituality is determined by personal outlook and priorities.”18

The baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost is from the presence of the Lord. It has the power to testify of the Father and Son, of Joseph Smith and living Apostles and prophets, and of the truthfulness of this work. It can also cleanse from sin, make of us at heart a new person, heal our souls, cause us to feel a love toward God and our fellowmen, and build within us a desire to become witnesses of his holy work. It can become a guide to our personal lives and help us make right decisions.

The Spirit is the only thing that can truly change people’s hearts. It is a gift of God and brings inward peace. It is offered to all who will humble themselves before the Lord, accept his truths, and are willing to live by those truths. “For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power [fire], and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance” (1 Thes. 1:5). This reality of the power of the Spirit is expressed in a verse from the hymn “Sweet Is the Peace the Gospel Brings”:


May we who know the sacred Name

From every sin depart.

Then will the Spirit’s constant flame

>Preserve us pure in heart.19

[tmac]

Luke, thanks for all the quotes and information. Good stuff. I am curious, though, why you would refer to “disciples of Mr. Snuffer” and phrase it in that context? As my own interest has become piqued in this subject, I have read a wide variety of material about the concept of BFHG. The single source that I have spent by far the most time studying is the BOM. The conclusion I have come to after reading everything that I have is that when a person experiences the gift of BFHG, they receive a remission of their sins and experience a spiritual manifestation letting them “know” that they are forgiven. The corresponding conclusion that I have come to is a person will always know when and how that happened. Although the corresponding “mighty change of heart” may happen gradually, the only conclusion I can draw is that BFHG doesn’t happen gradually.

You said:

This gift is conferred upon them when they are confirmed members of the Church of Jesus Christ.If members of the Church do not experience this then I imagine it will be due to a compensating error in their lives. Lack of sincerity, faith, repentance, worthiness etc.”

Just playing devil's advocate a little here, I can certainly see how that would and should happen when converts are baptized and confirmed. But the question I’ve got is this: How can/does that happen when an eight year-old is a baptized a member of the church? In most cases, the concepts of sincerity, true faith, repentance and worthiness probably don’t even have the same application to eight year-olds.

If, prior to the age of accountability a person doesn’t even have the capacity to “sin,” and then they are baptized and confirmed, what sins are there to even be remitted at that point? In my case, I grew up in the Church and was baptized and confirmed when I was eight. I don’t remember experiencing anything spiritual at that point. Since then, (including probably the biggest and most foundational spiritual manifestation of my life to date when I was almost 18) I have had spiritual experiences. And during the course of my life I have felt promptings from the Holy Ghost, at some times more than others, etc. BUT, and this is really the basis for my question, I have never had any kind of spiritual experience any time in my life when I felt like I was told that my sins had been remitted through the atonement of Jesus Christ, and I was forgiven of my sins. So, at this point, here I am. I am baptized and confirmed. I have had the gift of the HG conferred upon me by the laying on of hands following my baptism when I was 8. Based on my experiences, I have a testimony that God lives, and of the restored gospel. But I have never experienced a spiritual manifestation that my sins have been forgiven. So, have I been “Baptized by Fire and the Holy Ghost?” If, so, when and how, and why wouldn’t/shouldn’t I know for sure?

[dauser]

Immediately after leaving the baptismal of water in the river Jordan... Jesus Christ went immediately into the wilderness and did not do water for 40 days....for His baptism by fire.

Perhaps the word fasting is not just a noun but more a verb. Fasting is a another way of saying fast, rapid, quick, speed, a vibrating increase.

Fire is a vibrating, a friction causing heat, an oxidization of fuel or wastes.

Remove water from fire and any available fuel oxidizes faster. Fasting w/o water dries the wood... and dried wood burns hotter, cleaner and brighter.

You get a better cleanse hygenically when bathed in fire than in just water.

Deleting food only from the diet causes a cleansing by water and digestive enzymes.

However Deleting water from the diet causes the respiration rate to increase..flooding the body's fires with oxygen, throwing oxygen on dry fuel causes a cleansing fire within...within every cell...

The body becomes a reactor, a light bulb, the auroa that goes through the roof.

Perhaps Christ had to supervise John the Beloved in a 40 day fast for John to maintain his youth...he is around 2000 years old.

Abraham wife Sarah was old when she became young again to have her baby...perhaps she too understood the practice of staying away from the fountain (of youth)...

The pre flood patriarchs lived to be very old...mainly because their health care system was subtractive in nature...today it is additive in nature...Modern medicine sells a doctrine that people have deficiencies, that only government protected doctorcraft is capable of satisfying... surgical, pharmacutical and treatment necessities. Modern medicine is needy driven.

[reese]

If, prior to the age of accountability a person doesn’t even have the capacity to “sin,” and then they are baptized and confirmed, what sins are there to even be remitted at that point? In my case, I grew up in the Church and was baptized and confirmed when I was eight. I don’t remember experiencing anything spiritual at that point. Since then, (including probably the biggest and most foundational spiritual manifestation of my life to date when I was almost 18) I have had spiritual experiences. And during the course of my life I have felt promptings from the Holy Ghost, at some times more than others, etc. BUT, and this is really the basis for my question, I have never had any kind of spiritual experience any time in my life when I felt like I was told that my sins had been remitted through the atonement of Jesus Christ, and I was forgiven of my sins. So, at this point, here I am. I am baptized and confirmed. I have had the gift of the HG conferred upon me by the laying on of hands following my baptism when I was 8. Based on my experiences, I have a testimony that God lives, and of the restored gospel. But I have never experienced a spiritual manifestation that my sins have been forgiven. So, have I been “Baptized by Fire and the Holy Ghost?” If, so, when and how, and why wouldn’t/shouldn’t I know for sure?

I agree with your conclusions tmac. It is something we have to be aware of, otherwise what's the point? Also Nephi said:

14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

I would guess that most members of the church have not recieved the Holy Ghost on this level, which clearly is talking of "sons of perdition" level of knowledge.

[Seeker]

I added this post to the opening post.

[Seeker]

I would guess that most members of the church have not recieved the Holy Ghost on this level, which clearly is talking of "sons of perdition" level of knowledge.

Does this mean that anyone who has truly experienced baptism by fire and the holy ghost is a candidate to become a son of perdition, if they deny the holy ghost and the knowledge they have received through the holy ghost?

[Seeker]

At the beginning of this new week, I thought I would try to bump this poll back to the top and see if it might attract more interest.

Again, would any of those who have had the wonderful blessing of experiencing baptism by fire and the holy ghost be willing to share their experiences?

[reese]

I would guess that most members of the church have not recieved the Holy Ghost on this level, which clearly is talking of "sons of perdition" level of knowledge.

Does this mean that anyone who has truly experienced baptism by fire and the holy ghost is a candidate to become a son of perdition, if they deny the holy ghost and the knowledge they have received through the holy ghost?

The words Nephi uses certainly seems to make it sound that way. This chapter in 2Nephi is what got me really thinking of what Baptism by fire and the holy ghost really is, a year or so ago. Clearly Nephi is saying if we fall after receiving this, then we "would have been better to have not known the Lord."

I just can't believe that I got that level of accountability at my confirmation at age eight, nor did my eight year old daughter who was just baptised. It is foolish to say that is how it happens. Any parent of a just baptised 8 year old can clearly see this. Nor do I believe my 16 and 14 year old children have received the baptism by fire & holy ghost, and are now on that level of accountability. I don't believe I have received it yet.

I think a big part of the problem is that we are using different definitions than the scriptures use. We feel the holy ghost promting us and testifiying that something is true, and we know it is the holy ghost. We then essentially "settle for less" and just assume that we have "received" the holy ghost. When we have not. We have felt the holy ghost, many times. But we have not received the holy ghost as our "constant" conpanion and literally been physically purified and cleasned by that reception.

Then we read the above chapter in 2Nephi, and just assume we are on the path and have entered into the gate. When we have not, because we clearly have to be baptised by fire and the holy ghost BEFORE we enter into the gate. That is the gate, not being baptised by water and being told to receive the holy ghost. That is only the first half, and as Joseph smith said "only half a baptism and good for nothing, without receiving the baptism by fire and holy ghost."

[AshleyB]

Yes, from what the scriptures tell us it is an event that happens and there is no mistaking it. If you have to question whether you have been cleansed than you probably haven't.

[tmac]

Clearly Nephi is saying if we fall after receiving this, then we "would have been better to have not known the Lord."

When I first read this, I thought it said "if we 'fail' after receiving this. . . ." So I was going to say that I think we will continue to fail and make mistakes throughout our lives, including after BFHG, when in all likelihood we will be tested even more, and we will continue to have to repent for our mistakes and transgressions, whatever they are. But it's true, if "falling" is defined as "denying the Holy Ghost," that is ultimate failure. And I have to believe that it is not until we have been fully and completely baptized by F & the HG, in a way that leaves no doubt, that this can happen. I have to agree with Seeker that it does not appear that this important doctrine (and saving spiritual ordinance) is very clearly understood in the Church -- which is interesting because when you really start grasping it, the more you study the BOM, the clearer it seems to become. And I have to agree that it would be very interesting to hear from some of those who have experienced it.

[reese]

Clearly Nephi is saying if we fall after receiving this, then we "would have been better to have not known the Lord."

When I first read this, I thought it said "if we 'fail' after receiving this. . . ." So I was going to say that I think we will continue to fail and make mistakes throughout our lives, including after BFHG, when in all likelihood we will be tested even more, and we will continue to have to repent for our mistakes and transgressions, whatever they are. But it's true, if "falling" is defined as "denying the Holy Ghost," that is ultimate failure. And I have to believe that it is not until we have been fully and completely baptized by F & the HG, in a way that leaves no doubt, that this can happen. I have to agree with Seeker that it does not appear that this important doctrine (and saving spiritual ordinance) is very clearly understood in the Church -- which is interesting because when you really start grasping it, the more you study the BOM, the clearer it seems to become. And I have to agree that it would be very interesting to hear from some of those who have experienced it.

The exact words are Christs words that Nephi repeats to us. The Lord says:"After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me".

So after we do all of these things if we deny Him, it would be better that we had not known him. I guess we need to understand what Christ means when he says: "...after this should deny me". Clearly we will be in possession of some level of knowledge or understanding after being BFHG, that will hold us to a higher standard than what we have before BFHG.

Good luck on finding someone who has experienced this without any doubts about the matter. I have met exactly 0 people, I have talked to 1, and read of 5 or 6 different peoples experiences with it. I am convinced we are seeing the words of Alma in action. We are in the process of losing the lesser part of the gospel, because we are rejecting the higher portion. So few seem to have any grasp on what BFHG really is. It really seems as if we have lost the knowlege of it, as a people.

[sbsion]

next.............all "endowed" saints have "recievd the 2TMP", but, have they recieve the POWER thereof, I 'suspect' a need for the baptism of fire would be required?

[Rand]

3 Nephi 9:20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not. Just Saying...

[AshleyB]

Yes but in Nephi it also says they visibly saw fire and knew a change had been brought about within them. I think it clearly just means that they didn't know what to call it. But there was no mistaking the change that had taken place. The change did not come without notice even if they didn't fully realize what they had received.

[tmac]

next.............all "endowed" saints have "recievd the 2TMP", but, have they recieve the POWER thereof, I 'suspect' a need for the baptism of fire would be required?

Sbsion, can you please translate this for us (at least me)?

And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

And what of the myriad other examples of BFHG in the BOM where they definitely did know it -- they "knew" that they had been forgiven, and that their sins had been washed clean through the atonement of Jesus Christ? Again, one of the main points here seems to be how can there be so much confusion and lack of clarity and understanding about such an important principle?

[sbsion]

second token of Mel. Priesthood?

[tmac]

Thanks, sbsion. And, if you want to elaborate further, it wouldn't hurt my feelings. Your cryptic posts often seem to include little nuggets of knowledge and/or wisdom that would lead one to believe that you may understand more about this than seems very easy to extract from you.

[Rand]

Yes but in Nephi it also says they visibly saw fire and knew a change had been brought about within them. I think it clearly just means that they didn't know what to call it. But there was no mistaking the change that had taken place. The change did not come without notice even if they didn't fully realize what they had received.

Hi Thebestsun, good to hear from you again. The savior is referring to an event, we don't necessarily know which event, but He says nothing like that and fills in no details about the event. I would be uncomfortable adding supposed details that aren't there in the Savior's account. He distinctly and with good cause says that "they knew it not." But that is just me.

[tmac]

The savior is referring to an event, we don't necessarily know which event, but He says nothing like that and fills in no details about the event. I would be uncomfortable adding supposed details that aren't there in the Savior account. He distinctly and with good cause says that "they knew it not." But that is just me.

That's why I think it would be so interesting to hear not so much from those who fall into the "and they knew it not" category (which there is a place for in the poll), but more from those who "know" that they have been BFHG.

According to the poll, at least seven LDSFF members (who have responded so far) know that they have experienced this. It would be interesting to hear some of their experiences and understand how they know -- again, because according to my reading of numerous accounts of BFHG in the BOM, what it means, at least in most cases, is that they are "told" in unmistakable terms, not by the bishop, not by the SP, or any other mortal being, but through a very clear and unmistakable manifestation of the HG that their humility, sacrifice (BHCS), and repentance are acceptable to the Lord, and they have been forgiven of ALL their sins up to that point.

[AshleyB]

Oh I was actually referring to what happened with the Nephites. My purpose was not to add supposed events and just make stuff up. I just mixed up two different events. My bad. We still disagree. I would be careful in believing its something that happens without the receivers knowledge. People can be led away in carnal security thinking they have received the gift when they haven't. This is why it's such a serious issue. This is the reason Joseph tells us there will be many saints who will be upset when they discover they have no attained to the Glory they thought they deserved. Works without Faith are dead. A person can spend their life doing works and still have no entered in by the way. Why would that be? I think it's a matter that deserves serious study and reflection. For me, I know what the Holy Ghost has manifested unto me to be true and I know that Baptism by Fire is a necessary step in the baptismal process and that it does not automatically occur upon conferral. It doesn't mean it can't occur at that time. For some it can and does but I would venture to say for the vast majority it doesn't happen right at conferral.

BORN AGAIN

See Baptism, Baptism of Fire, Birth, Conversion, Gifts of The Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit of Promise, Sons of God, Spiritual Death, Spiritual Life. To gain salvation in the celestial kingdom men must be born again (Alma 7:14); born of water and of the Spirit (John 3:1-13); born of God, so that they are changed from their "carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness," becoming new creatures of the Holy Ghost. (Mosiah 27:24-29.) They must become newborn babes in Christ (I Pet. 2:2); they must be "spiritually begotten" of God, be born of Christ, thus becoming his sons and daughters. (Mosiah 5:7.)

The first birth takes place when spirits pass from their preexistent first estate into mortality; the second birth or birth "into the kingdom of heaven" takes place when mortal men are born again and become alive to the things of the Spirit and of righteousness. The elements of water, blood, and Spirit are present in both births. (Moses 6:59-60.) The second birth begins when men are baptized in water by a legal administrator; it is completed when they actually receive the companionship of the Holy Ghost, becoming new creatures by the cleansing power of that member of the Godhead.

Mere compliance with the formality of the ordinance of baptism does not mean that a person has been born again. No one can be born again without baptism, but the immersion in water and the laying on of hands to confer the Holy Ghost do not of themselves guarantee that a person has been or will be born again. The new birth takes place only for those who actually enjoy the gift or companionship of the Holy Ghost, only for those who are fully converted, who have given themselves without restraint to the Lord. Thus Alma addressed himself to his "brethren of the church" and pointedly asked them if they had "spiritually been born of God," received the Lord's image in their countenances, and had the "mighty change" in their hearts which always attends the birth of the spirit. (see Alma 5:14-31)

Those members of the Church who have actually been born again are in a blessed and favored state. They have attained their position, not merely by joining the Church, but through faith (1 John 5:1), righteousness (I John 2:29), love (I John 4:7), and overcoming the world, (I John 5:4). "Whosoever is born of God doth not continue in sin; for the Spirit of God remaineth in him; and he cannot continue to sin, because he is born of God, having received that holy Spirit of promise." (Inspired Version, 1 John 3:9.) Mormon Doctrine, p. 101-102.


The need for this change, while not well understood or widely taught, is not a complete secret. Indeed, President Benson has on occasion spoken of this change. Two prominent instances were his 1985 October Conference address (his last as President of the Quorum of the Twelve) entitled "Born of God", Ensign, Nov. '85 pp. 5-7 and the First Presidency Message in the October 1989 Ensign entitled "A Mighty Change of Heart", at pp. 3-5. Indeed, Pres. Benson closes his extraordinarily powerful last talk "Beware of Pride" with an admonition to "cleanse the inner vessel" and be born of the Spirit. In our view, President Benson in his three years of conference addresses as Prophet clearly and powerfully taught the steps leading to this change, especially in the following addresses:

4 April '86, "The Power of the Word", Ensign, May 1986, pp. 79-82

5 April '86, "Cleansing the Inner Vessel", Ensign, May 1986 pp. 4-7

6 April '86, "A Sacred Responsibility", Ensign, May 1986, pp. 77-78

4 Oct. '86, "The Book of Mormon-Keystone of Our Religion", Ensign, Nov. 1986 pp. 4-7

4 Oct. '86, "Godly Characteristics of the Master", Ensign, Nov '86 pp. 4-7

5 Oct. '86, "The Gift of Modern Revelation", Ensign, Nov. ‘86, pp. 78-80

4 April '87, "The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants", Ensign, May ‘87 pp. 83-85

5 April '87, "The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants", Ensign, May ‘87 pp. 83-85

4 Oct. '87, "Come Unto Christ", Ensign, Nov. '87, pp. 83-85.

2 April '88, "The Great Commandment-Love The Lord", Ensign, May '88 pp. 4-6

3 April '88, "Come Unto Christ, and be Perfected in Him", Ensign, May '88 pp. 84-85

1 Oct. '88, "Flooding the Earth with the Book of Mormon", Ensign, Nov. '88 pp. 4-6

2 Oct. '88, "I Testify", Ensign, Nov. '88 pp. 86-87

1 April '89, "Beware of Pride", Ensign, May '89 pp. 4-7

The Prophet Joseph gave us the following description of the effects of the Holy Ghost as found on pages 149 to 150 of The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith:
There are two Comforters spoken of. One is the Holy Ghost, the same as given on the day of Pentecost, and that all Saints receive after faith, repentance, and baptism. This first Comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence.

On the question of whether the change is an imperceptible process or a recognizable, discernible event, most church members who have a view on the subject seem to believe that the baptism of fire is a process that occurs unbeknownst to the recipient rather than a powerful, life-changing, personal spiritual experience and cite as support for that view the Savior’s statement in 3 Nephi 9:20 wherein He refers to "... the Lamanites, ... [who] .. were baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not." From the time that we began to seek for understanding about the Baptism of the Spirit this scripture has puzzled us because every other scripture on the subject either explicitly describes or strongly implies that the baptism of the spirit or of fire is a distinct, powerful, personal experience, rather than something that happens slowly, gradually and unbeknownst to the recipient. So we began to try to identify the specific event to which the Savior was referring.

One of the first questions we asked was whether the event was included in the Book of Mormon record. Although the references are vague at best, we began by assuming that the event to which the Savior referred was in the record, otherwise we would be forever in the dark on the meaning unless one obtained the explanation by personal revelation. And, given the attention that the Lord has given to making and preserving this record we reasoned that the event to which He was referring simply had to be in the book.

The next question is what event was it? A good friend who had pondered the same question for seventeen years after he experienced the mighty change then shared with me the answer that the Spirit had led him to. He pointed out that in the former version of the scriptures, the footnotes on this verse referenced Helaman 5:45 and Ether 12:14. Unfortunately neither of these references are now separately indicated on this verse, instead the reference in the new scriptures is to the topical Guide subject "Holy Ghost, Baptism of" which is extremely lengthy and which only the most diligent student will wade through.

After perusing the references we concluded that the event had to be the powerful experience recorded in Helaman 5. There, beginning with verse 21, we read of a series of tremendously powerful spiritual events experienced simultaneously by about three hundred Lamanites who had gone as a lynch mob to the prison to kill Nephi and Lehi. When the mob got to the prison they were "overshadowed with a cloud of darkness, and a solemn fear came upon them." Then in verses 40-49 we learn that the "cloud of darkness" was removed from around them; then "they were encircled about, yea every soul, by a pillar of fire" and "filled with that joy which is unspeakable and full of glory", and "filled with fire, and they could speak forth marvelous words"; finally, they were even administered to by angels! This account certainly shows that those who experienced these extraordinary events were aware that they’d had such experiences. After rereading this experience we concluded that the Savior’s statement that they "knew it not" could ONLY have meant that this group of Lamanites did not know that their miraculous experience was caused by and properly named or known as the baptism of fire, rather than the meaning that is commonly accepted in the church that the experience happened to them in such a way that they did not sense it or perceive it.

As further evidence that these three hundred people knew that they’d had an extraordinary experience let us read on in this account.
Helaman 5:49-50 And there were about three hundred souls who saw and heard these things; and they were bidden to go forth and marvel not, neither should they doubt.

50 And it came to pass that they did go forth, and did minister unto the people, declaring throughout all the regions round about ALL THE THINGS WHICH THEY HAD HEARD AND SEEN, insomuch that the more part of the Lamanites were convinced of them, because of the greatness of the evidences which they had received.
And again in Chapter 6 we encounter the following in verse 4:
4 And it came to pass that many of the Lamanites did come down into the land of Zarahemla, and did declare unto the people of the Nephites THE MANNER OF THEIR CONVERSION, and did exhort them to faith and repentance.

Certainly the only way that those who were part of the three hundred could testify of "the things which they had heard and seen" and also describe ‘‘the manner of their conversion, was that they knew what had happened to them.

My friend experienced similar confusion during his born again experience. As he told me about it, he explained, "The experience lasted six days. It was near the end that the Lord actually revealed to me that I had been baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost." In other words, until the spirit explained to him exactly what his extraordinary experience was in scriptural terms he too did not know exactly what it was that was happening to him.

To the best of our ability to understand the scriptures, the scriptural evidence appears to be unanimous that the baptism of the spirit is NOT AN IMPERCEPTIBLEPROCESS but is a separate, distinct, clearly identifiable, and extraordinarily powerful PERSONAL SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE. In short, if you have experienced it you know it. You may not know what it was, but you will definitely know that something happened to you.

To those who may wish to advance a different point of view, all we can say is that our desire is to understand whatever the truth is and are most interested in the scriptural and other supporting evidence for other possibilities. But, after all, it is not our views that matter. What matters is the way things really are. And that is what we have sought to consider in this work.

Is it possible that some may receive the baptism of the spirit without knowing that anything has happened? Obviously we do not know all things so the only honest answer we can give is, "We don’t know." We do know however, that we can not find in the scriptures even a single scripturalincident or discussion that supports the proposition that the actual baptism of the spirit is an unperceived process! One considering this question has to ask why every single one of the scriptural passages describing instances of such baptism are either explicitly or implicitly descriptions of a discernible event rather than of an imperceptible process? As we considered our experiences and the scriptures quoted here and elsewhere throughout this work the only answer to that question that makes any sense to us is that Heavenly Father really wants us to understand that the change is an extraordinary blessing that He wants us to understand and to receive.If this is not true then why are the scriptures and particularly the three modern day scriptures, especially 2 Nephi chapters 31 & 32 and 3 Nephi chapters 9-27, filled with directions about and reports of the experience?

As further evidence that the mighty change is a powerful and clearly discernible experience, has not the Lord, our master teacher, likened the mighty change to two vital life experiences, birth and baptism in such phrases as being "BORN of the spirit" and as the "BAPTISM of fire and the Holy Ghost"? Does not everyone know the dates of their own birth and baptism? Would not Adam, Enos, Alma the younger, King Benjamin’s people, and the twelve Nephite disciples chosen by the Savior, among many others, remember forever the occasions of their baptisms by fire as spiritual rebirths?

Both baptism in water and birth are identifiable events that occur at the culmination of processes. With baptism the preceding process is the development of faith which Alma in Chapter 32 of Alma has so beautifully likened to a seed and its germination and development. With birth the preceding processes are conception and a nine month gestation. With the mighty change the preceding process is known as repentance which culminates in receiving a forgiveness of your sins and the mighty change of the baptism of fire.

Perhaps you are wondering why are we taking so much time on this point? It is because we have encountered so very many who vigorously resist believing that the mighty change, the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost is a discernible event or experience. All of us who have contributed to this effort have struggled to share it with others for as long as we have had understanding about it. Would you be surprised to hear that more often than not we have encountered stiff resistence? However, on this we’re in some pretty good company. The following well known statement of the Prophet Joseph shows that he also wrestled with the difficulties of teaching things that people were not eager to hear.
But there has been great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand.

I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen. Teachings of The Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 331.

[Rand]

The savior is referring to an event, we don't necessarily know which event, but He says nothing like that and fills in no details about the event. I would be uncomfortable adding supposed details that aren't there in the Savior account. He distinctly and with good cause says that "they knew it not." But that is just me.

That's why I think it would be so interesting to hear not so much from those who fall into the "and they knew it not" category (which there is a place for in the poll), but more from those who "know" that they have been BFHG.

According to the poll, at least seven LDSFF members (who have responded so far) know that they have experienced this. It would be interesting to hear some of their experiences and understand how they know -- again, because according to my reading of numerous accounts of BFHG in the BOM, what it means, at least in most cases, is that they are "told" in unmistakable terms, not by the bishop, not by the SP, or any other mortal being, but through a very clear and unmistakable manifestation of the HG that their humility, sacrifice (BHCS), and repentance are acceptable to the Lord, and they have been forgiven of ALL their sins up to that point.

tmac, it is an interesting poll, and topic, but not one I would be willing to even answer, honestly. I think such an experience is a very sacred experience, and should be very cautiously discussed, if at all. No criticism in asking the question, just my feedback.

Thebestsun, I am not saying that no one knows when it happens, I am saying that according to the words of the Savior, not everyone knows when it happens. I know of two men who had the calling and election made sure, but didn't know that was what it meant until quite some time later. It is hard to paint with such a broad brush stroke in such issues. God deals with each of us in unique ways, and to say that so and so had this experience, so mine will be the same, may be disappointing. It seems to me the Gospel is a principle and truth driven process not one driven by recipes of behavior or action.

[AshleyB]

I wasn't implying all experiences are the same. Just that when It happens the recipient would be aware that something had taken place even if they didn't know what to call it or exactly what it was. I also don't think baptism by fire would necessarily be too sacred to share either because some people when they receive it they are commanded like in the scriptures that they are to testify of Christ and what they know because of the experience. It just depends. Just some of my thoughts.

[Seeker]

This is great. Thanks so much for all the participation, both in the poll, as well as all the thoughtful comments and discussion, including all thebestsun's references, and Rand's word of caution.

Although I think it would really be interesting, inspiring and faith promoting to hear something from people who know that they have been baptized by fire and the holy ghost, I think the poll results themselves are very interesting.

Of 24 respondents up to this point, 10 don't know whether they have experienced it or not, 7 know that they haven't, and only 7 know that they have. That means that only about 30% of this group are confident that they have received this essential, saving spiritual ordinance.

Add to this the fact that even though this poll has now been viewed by almost as many viewers as the "Spouse" poll (there have now been about 46 responses to that poll, including the 20 before it was revised, which restarted the count), the participation level in this poll is only about 50% of the participation level in the other poll..

I don't know what that means. I don't know if it means that people are not as interested (although it has now almost caught up with the other poll in viewership), or that people are less certain about how to answer, which in and of itself is also interesting.

In addition to being very interesting, these results seem to substantiate my suspicion that this fundamental doctrine and what it means are not clearly understood in the Church.

I don't know what any of this means either for the Church, or for us individually, but I find it both significant and puzzling.

[serenitylala]

At the beginning of this new week, I thought I would try to bump this poll back to the top and see if it might attract more interest.

Again, would any of those who have had the wonderful blessing of experiencing baptism by fire and the holy ghost be willing to share their experiences?

Oh Seeker, I adore your innocence and honest seeking of truth in asking such a question, but this is a forum... and sometimes, it is better that these things be asked in PMs or privately. Ask those that are willing to share with you privately their experiences.

It is the sacredness of the private conversation that brings out the best. I have no regrets in what I have said openly but there are others that need to remain silent concerning such matters unless told to by the Spirit to do otherwise... and those may have the answers that you seek.