Re: Fanatical Islam
Posted: January 3rd, 2012, 12:55 am
Al Qaeda Doesn't Exist
Your home for discussing politics, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and the principles of liberty.
https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/
I'm not sure how you can come to that last assertion based on the other ones. Let's look at them:Tribunal wrote:InfoWarrior
I posted on the Freedom Forum an attachment to the IAEA report on Iran's nuclear program. The report says that Iran has the facilities to produce a nuclear weapon, the materials to produce a nuclear weapon, and the means of producing a nuclear weapon. The report also says that Iran has not allowed inspection to prove one way or another if Iran actually has a weapon or not.
I believe the burden rests with the world to prove one way or another if Iran has a weapon and their intentions to use it/them.
Iran states they are researching technology for nuclear power but the IAEA report states Iran is going in the wrong direction if all they want is nuclear power. Is this enough evidence? I don't believe so!
True - Iran is developing a nuclear weapon.
False - Iran threatened to wipe Israel off the map. That was a mis-translation. Iran's president stated he wanted a regime change.
True - Iran did threaten US naval vessels if they entered international waters near Iran's coast.
True - Iran is a threat to the United States.
The underlined portion of your statement is exactly what I mean. I am a strong believer that the United States has a long history of creating it's enemies. But regardless of the reasons, Iran is a serious threat to the United States and that means it is a threat to those of us who live here. It takes just one nuclear bomb and the people of the United States will be living in Little House on the Prairie.Iran is a threat to the U.S. I'm puzzled by how you found this statement to be true in light of the other ones. Perhaps you meant Iran is a threat in the sense that the U.S. is a threat to Iran and Iran isn't going to just sit down and take it. The U.S. has been actively threatening Iran, talking about war, imposing sanctions, limiting trade, etc.
So I guess you are not voting for Ron Paul? Actually you have it pretty easy because all the rest of the Republicans running support the Neo-con push for war with Iran....so you can vote for any of them.Tribunal wrote:The underlined portion of your statement is exactly what I mean. I am a strong believer that the United States has a long history of creating it's enemies. But regardless of the reasons, Iran is a serious threat to the United States and that means it is a threat to those of us who live here. It takes just one nuclear bomb and the people of the United States will be living in Little House on the Prairie.Iran is a threat to the U.S. I'm puzzled by how you found this statement to be true in light of the other ones. Perhaps you meant Iran is a threat in the sense that the U.S. is a threat to Iran and Iran isn't going to just sit down and take it. The U.S. has been actively threatening Iran, talking about war, imposing sanctions, limiting trade, etc.
No! I like Rep. Paul a lot and believe he is the best candidate for President. I also agree with his foreign policy because it is most in-line with the Constitution.moonwhim wrote:So I guess you are not voting for Ron Paul? Actually you have it pretty easy because all the rest of the Republicans running support the Neo-con push for war with Iran....so you can vote for any of them.
Do you believe in a preemptive strike on Iran?Tribunal wrote:No! I like Rep. Paul a lot and believe he is the best candidate for President. I also agree with his foreign policy because it is most in-line with the Constitution.moonwhim wrote:So I guess you are not voting for Ron Paul? Actually you have it pretty easy because all the rest of the Republicans running support the Neo-con push for war with Iran....so you can vote for any of them.
My point is the United States has already caused damage to relations with Iran. The United States, and Israel, and even Europe, have threatened Iran's security with an on-going shadow war that's lasted for decades. There is a shadow war going on right now with Iran. The damage is done! I believe to attempt to fix the problem would mean our government admits all the corruption and wrong-doing that's existed and no politician is willing to do that, and no general is willing to let that happen.
I disagree with Rep. Paul when he says that Iran is not a threat to the United States. They openly threaten the United States. I also disagree with Rep. Paul when he says that there is no evidence that Iran is developing a nuclear weapon. The evidence is there if people are willing to look at it. Still, I believe Rep. Paul is the best hope for the future of the United States.
I have a notion that the public memory only goes back four to eight years. It explains why every election people buy into the idea of change and swing to the candidate from the other party, even though last time that party was in power they were so disillusioned they voted them out.InfoWarrior82 wrote:So let them launch their missiles. It will be the last time they did. Christ will not support the aggressor army. Unfortunately, I have a sinking feeling that it's going to be the U.S. again this time around.
This whole business with the IAEA really should spark a remembrance back to circa 2003 with a country called.... oh gosh darn it, what was that country called again? .... OH YES! IRAQ! What about our clever "intelligence" with yellow cake uranium? Weapons of mass destruction? As Rick Perry would say, "Whoops".
There were those among the Nephites who said the same thing:"We need to stop Iran because they're developing nukes! We need to go in now before they bomb us all!"
I can add dialogue tags to make my position more clear . Usually a good idea anyway.ktg wrote:Alma 26:25 And moreover they did say: Let us take up arms against them, that we destroy them and their iniquity out of the land, lest they overrun us and destroy us.Fairminded wrote:"We need to stop Iran because they're developing nukes! We need to go in now before they bomb us all!"
Maybe if the 'saints' studied the BofM daily as we have been instructed instead of watching MSM, those 95% of us wouldn't be deceived and in the dark.
"I tell you freedom of speech will go, freedom of the press will go, and freedom of religion will go. I have warned you against propaganda and hate. We are in the midst of the greatest exhibition of propaganda that the world has ever seen. Just do not believe all you read or hear. The elect are being deceived." J. Reuben Clark, Jr.
Iran moves on from "Destroy Israel!" to "Destroy all the Jews!"
DEBKAfile Exclusive Report December 3, 2011, 10:41 AM (GMT+02:00)
From the Iranian anti-Semitic film "Sabbath Hunter"
Amid international and Israeli controversy over whether or not to attack Iran's nuclear program, the rulers of the Islamic Republic have just "upgraded" their strategic objective of wiping Israel off the map and extended it for the first time to the more ambitious one of annihilating the Jews worldwide. They are using the age-old weapon of anti-Semitism to promote their new goal.
Two weeks ago, as their nuclear bomb moved menacingly up the pipeline, the ayatollahs in Tehran and Qom unleashed a virulent campaign of anti-Semitic propaganda in their sermons. A new book and a film were released for wide distribution on orders from Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. They draw heavily on the infamous Elders of Zion fiction to accuse the Jews and their rabbis of conspiring to corrupt and rule the world. Under the title "How Israel should be destroyed," this book was awarded the best book prize at the Khorassan book fair when it was first displayed there on Thursday, Dec. 1.
The authors of its seven chapters, identified only as "seminary students of the Holy City of Qom," set out tactics for destroying Israel and the Jews of the world. They quote the Qoran as well as the Protocols of Zion on "the Jewish world view," asserting that the persecution of Jews through the ages - including the Nazi Holocaust - was "just punishment for their crimes."
The Qoran is cited as urging Muslims to keep their distance from Jews because of their "perfidious and deceitful nature."
The book quotes extensively from the views of Ayatollah Khomeini, founder of the Iran's 1979 Islamic revolution, under the heading, "Israel Must Be Destroyed." The book's editor Hojjat-ol-Eslam Mohammad Ebrahim-Nia stresses that this prescription has the force of a fatwa (religious edict) and is binding on every Muslim.
He adds: Notwithstanding every effort to destroy this "criminal" people, it continues to exist and in the guise of Zionism continues its wicked assault on Islam.
The anti-Semitic film, "The Sabbath Hunter," has been circulating for some time but was a flop with Iranian movie audiences. Now the Supreme Leader has ordered it to be screened at every university in the land. The Basij students who rampaged through the British embassy in Tehran this week were made responsible with getting it widely shown.
Aznar: Khamenei said in 2001 Iran aimed to 'set Israel alight'
Former Spanish leader says the Ayatollah explained why Iran must declare war on Israel and the U.S.
By Yossi Verter and Haaretz Correspondent
Former Spanish prime minister Jose Maria Aznar said Tuesday that Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei told him five years ago that "setting Israel on fire" was the first order of business on the Iranian agenda.
Aznar, in Israel as the guest of the Interdisciplinary Center in Herzliya, related the story to Major General (Res.) Professor Yitzhak Ben-Israel, who later confirmed to Haaretz that the remarks had been made.
Aznar's aides refused to give Haaretz the exact quote, but mentioned an article Aznar has written in the past on his meeting with Khamenei.
"He received me politely," Aznar wrote, "and at the beginning of the meeting he explained to me why Iran must declare war on Israel and the United States until they are completely destroyed. I made only one request of him: that he tell me the time of the planned attack."
Professor Ben-Israel, the former head of the Israel Defense Force's Weapon Systems Development Authority, is today No. 31 on Kadima's list of Knesset candidates.
Aznar was to deliver a lecture at the Interdisciplinary Center on Wednesday evening on "Dealing with the challenged of fundamental Islam and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction."
Khamenei still holds the post of Iranian spiritual leader, and considered to be the powerful man in the country.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/aznar-khame ... t-1.182775" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hamas leader Haniyeh: Goal is destruction of Israel in stages
Abbas: Hamas agrees to '67 borders
by Itamar Marcus and Nan Jacques Zilberdik
At a ceremony marking the 24th anniversary of the founding of Hamas, Hamas leader in the Gaza Strip Ismail Haniyeh said that Hamas may work for the "interim objective of liberation of Gaza, the West Bank, or Jerusalem," but that this "interim objective" and "reconciliation" with Fatah will not change Hamas' long-term "strategic" goal of eliminating all of Israel:
"The armed resistance and the armed struggle are the path and the strategic choice for liberating the Palestinian land, from the [Mediterranean] sea to the [Jordan] river, and for the expulsion of the invaders and usurpers [Israel]... We won't relinquish one inch of the land of Palestine."
In his speech, Haniyeh also promised that Hamas will "lead Intifada after Intifada until we liberate Palestine - all of Palestine, Allah willing. Allah Akbar and praise Allah."
Two days later, contradicting Haniyeh's statements, PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas said that Hamas leader abroad Khaled Mashaal had agreed that:
- "There will be no military resistance."
- "The permanent solution is on the '67 borders."
According to Abbas, Hamas agrees to a permanent solution on the '67 borders. However, Haniyeh said that Hamas agrees to a temporary solution on the '67 borders as a first stage only.
For many years, the PLO promoted a "stages plan" that would first create a Palestinian state on the 1949 - 1967 armistice lines, and then work from that position to destroy Israel.
Senior Fatah official Abbas Zaki recently stated that this remains the goal for Fatah as well, but that "you can't say it to the world. You can say it to yourself."
The following are longer excerpts of the statements mentioned above:
Speech by Ismail Haniyeh, head of Hamas at ceremony marking 24th anniversary of the founding of Hamas:
"We welcome you today, on this anniversary of the founding of the Islamic Resistance Movement - Hamas, as you renew the promise and oath of loyalty with Allah, with His Messenger and with His believers; you are renewing the loyalty to the blood of the Martyrs and the path of resistance and Jihad upon the blessed land of Palestine...
We say today, explicitly, so it cannot be explained otherwise, that the armed resistance and the armed struggle are the path and the strategic choice for liberating the Palestinian land, from the [Mediterranean] sea to the [Jordan] river, and for the expulsion of the invaders and usurpers [Israel] from the blessed land of Palestine. The Hamas movement will lead Intifada after Intifada until we liberate Palestine - all of Palestine, Allah willing. Allah Akbar and praise Allah. We say with transparency and in a clear manner, that Palestinian reconciliation - and all sides must know this - cannot come at the expense of [our] principles, at the expense of the resistance. These principles are absolute and cannot be disputed: Palestine - all of Palestine - is from the sea to the river. We won't relinquish one inch of the land of Palestine. The involvement of Hamas at any stage with the interim objective of liberation of [only] Gaza, the West Bank, or Jerusalem, does not replace its strategic view concerning Palestine and the land of Palestine."
[Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), Dec. 14, 2011]
PA TV rebroadcast of interview in Arabic with Abbas on the European Union's news channel Euro-News:
Abbas [asked about discussions with Hamas]: "We held a meeting about a month ago, Khaled Mashaal [head of Hamas political bureau] and I, and we established some foundations for an agreement. Among these foundations - first, Hamas concurs with us on the following points: the first point is that the calm and the ceasefire are [in place] not only in Gaza, but also in the West Bank - that's one. Two - the resistance must be non-violent -popular. There will be no military resistance, honestly. And we agreed on this. The third point [was] that the permanent solution is on the '67 borders. Hamas agreed to this, too. The fourth point - that we would go to elections in May of next year."
[PA TV (Fatah), Dec. 16 and 17, 2011]
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=6024
From the inception of Hezbollah to the present, the elimination of the State of Israel has been one of Hezbollah's primary goals. Some translations of Hezbollah's 1985 Arabic-language manifesto state that "our struggle will end only when this entity [Israel] is obliterated". According to Hezbollah's Deputy-General, Na'im Qasim, the struggle against Israel is a core belief of Hezbollah and the central rationale of Hezbollah's existence.
http://books.google.com/books?id=iVJR9U ... am&f=false
MOONWHIM,moonwhim wrote:Do you believe in a preemptive strike on Iran?
I totally agree!Fairminded wrote:I can add dialogue tags to make my position more clear . Usually a good idea anyway.
You need to learn the facts of the conflict. There is much more going on than just developing nukes. The United States isn't just preparing for war with Iran, the United States is already engaged in war with Iran.Typical media-swallowing drone: "We need to stop Iran because they're developing nukes! We need to go in now before they bomb us all!"
You need to learn the facts behind Iraq and all that was found. WMDs were found in Iraq!Me: "Um, eight years ago we did just that in Iraq, only there weren't any nukes and that war was not only unconstitutional but immoral."
I totally disagree. The conflict with Iran is an on-going conflict the world has had with itself.TMD: "Yeah, but this time it's different!"
Educate yourself!Me: "...why?"
We are all fools because we've allowed our corrupt government to wage in immoral and un-Constitutional conflicts for years.TMD: "Because the people in charge wouldn't make the same mistake twice. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice--"
This statement screams of ignorance!Me: "It sounds like you're the one being fooled twice. And yes, this time it IS different. Instead of saying the enemy has WMDs as a pretext for war, they're saying they're only DEVELOPING them. It sounds like this time what we're doing is even more unconstitutional and immoral."
If you say so!TMD: "...you're not a patriot."
5tev3 wrote:I think you will find if you analyze the scriptures in context you will discover that it is quite consistent with my point. Mormon doesn't cease leading the Nephites because they were wicked, he forbids to lead the Nephites specifically because they decide to wage a war of aggression against the Lamanites. “And it came to pass that I utterly refused to go up against mine enemies; and I did even as the Lord had commanded me; and I did stand as an idle witness to manifest unto the world the things which I saw and heard,” (Mormon 3:16)Obiwan wrote:Problem with your judgment is you quote mine the scripture to fit your own ideology, instead of considering the full context, and you also compare apples and oranges as if the circumstances are exactly the same when they aren't. Not only that, but you add to scripture trying to claim a one size fits all ideology, instead of considering the context itself.5tev3 wrote:Offensive war is never justified and is forbidden by Jesus Christ.
Mormon 3:14 "And when they had sworn by all that had been forbidden them by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that they would go up unto their enemies to battle, and avenge themselves of the blood of their brethren..."
I wrote a whole article on the topic here.
Take for example the verse above. You entirely rip it out of it's context, the context being that the Nephites were actually "wicked" at the time, and Mormon didn't want to lead such a people another time because they hadn't repented.
See, the problem with people like you, is if your liberal ideology is consistent, we wouldn't have went to war against Germany or Japan.
After all, no need to go to them, let them come to us. People like you, we wouldn't have helped South Korea, and today the South would likely be just like the North is now. Oh.... Aren't you so RIGHTEOUS!
Sorry, but your liberalism is of the devil, not God.... Your views are perversion. Only the devil would want the wicked of the world to be left alone, becoming stronger and stronger, destroying the lives of the innocent. You sir, are not of God.... Repent.
If it was because they were wicked then why did he go back to leading them again later when they were still wicked? Answer: because they had ceased going up unto their enemies and had reverted back to only defending themselves. In chapter 5 Mormon even repeatedly notes that it was always the Lamanites that came against them:
…the Lamanites did come against us as we had fled… (Mormon 5:3)
…they came against us again… (Mormon 5:4)
…the Lamanites did come again against us to battle… (Mormon 5:6)
I don't believe that you even read my entire article.
I don't know what you mean by "liberal" either. I don't consider myself a "liberal" or a "conservative" or any other divisive, meaningless, label since their meanings are polluted and both existing flavors of "liberal" and "conservative" factions are war-like and bloodthirsty people fueled by a corrupt red and blue headed party that masquerades as two distinct entities. Name-calling evidences that you do not understand an issue well enough to present your ideas properly.
I invite you to try reading the article again with an open mind and view the scriptures in their context. I'm quite confident that you will find that not only does the Lord never command his people to go out unto their enemies, the Book of Mormon provides many wonderful alternatives to dealing with enemies rather than destroying them.
Note that I believe, along with the scriptures, that we are fully justified in DEFENDING ourselves unto bloodshed but only as our enemies come against us. I'm not trying to promote myself as being "holier-than-thou" as you seem to imply, I am just trying to point out that your position is the opposite of what Book of Mormon and the founding fathers teach. It IS a one-size-fits-all ideology. You never go up against your enemies.
“they had sworn by all that had been forbidden them by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that they would go up unto their enemies to battle, and avenge themselves of the blood of their brethren…”
Let’s refer back to President Kimball’s assessment of us: "We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel—ships, planes, missiles, fortifications—and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become antienemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan’s counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior’s teaching: “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; “That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 5:44–45.)
Consider the words Ammon: "For they said unto us: Do ye suppose that ye can bring the Lamanites to the knowledge of the truth? Do ye suppose that ye can convince the Lamanites of the incorrectness of the traditions of their fathers, as stiffnecked a people as they are; whose hearts delight in the shedding of blood; whose days have been spent in the grossest iniquity; whose ways have been the ways of a transgressor from the beginning? Now my brethren, ye remember that this was their language. And moreover they did say: Let us take up arms against them, that we destroy them and their iniquity out of the land, lest they overrun us and destroy us. But behold, my beloved brethren, we came into the wilderness not with the intent to destroy our brethren, but with the intent that perhaps we might save some few of their souls." – Alma 26:24-26
I think OMD may actually be Glenn Beck in disguise.InfoWarrior82 wrote:OMD, you have said previously that you believe the LDGs want to go to war with Iran. Why, then, are you buying into all of the mainstream propaganda which tells us why we should go to war with Iran? You already said we shouldn't go to war pre-emptively. Why do you support candidates who would go to war pre-emptively? It seems like you are actually ideologically closer to Ron Paul than anyone else, but just want Ron Paul to talk tough on Iran. You want more rhetoric.
OMD, great job in avoiding answering all of infowarriors questions for you!Oldemandalton wrote:Infowarrior let us step back so we can see where we agree and disagree.
I believe that these are your positions.
1. Iran is not developing nuclear weapons and is only using enriched uranium for peaceful purposes.
I have shown in my previous posts that Iran is testing implosion devises used in nuclear detonation.
Iran is enriching uranium way beyond the 5% needed for fuel rods. 20% and still enriching.
Iran has launched a satellite into orbit meaning they have intercontinental missile technology.
Iran has fired missiles from ships in the Caspian Sea twice in the last 8 years to test the feasibility of an EMP attack on the USA.
2. Iran has never said it wanted to destroy Israel or America.
I have clearly shown this is false. Many Iranian leaders on many occasions have said that they want to destroy Israel and America. They obviously do not say it in English but they express it in public in Iran and else where, at ‘Terror Conferences’, military and political rallies, on TV, Books, News outlets, movies and over the pulpit in the Mosques. To ignore their own words and beliefs is foolish. The Iranian lobby, their English news service and Russia TV are the ones spreading lies and propaganda Infowarrior.
Iran has conducted a clandestine war against Israel and to a point America thru their proxy terrorist organizations Hamas and Hezbollah. Both of these organization’s major goal is the destruction of Israel. It is naïve to think that when Iran gets a nuclear weapon on ICBMs they would not use them to fulfill their goals they have been following for over 40 years. It is not just politics or the hatred of Jews/’Zionism’/Israel that has set them on this course to “destroy Israel and America” but their desire to see their Islamic Revolution to spreads to the rest of the Middle East AND the world. They see themselves as a leader of this Caliphate.
If you have read my posts you will also know that Ahmadinejad and Khomeini both believe and have said that they are the forerunners of the 12th Imam and want to hasten his return. Khomeini has even said he has spoken to the 12th Imam! So why would the leaders of Iran not uses whatever it takes to realize their dreams and goals. As I have said only the naïve think they won’t use them.
3. The Book of Mormon teaches that Israel or the US would be going against God’s word if we preemptively attacked Iranian nuclear facilities.
Comparing Mormon vs the Lamanites to the conflict Israel and America have now with Iran is like comparing apples and oranges. Neither Mormon nor George Washington had an enemy which could, with the push of one button, kill a major portion of your population in just minuets. They had months of warning before an attack. Lamanites did on occasion catch the Nephites off guard but they were not able to slaughter over 50% of the Nephites in one surprise attack. The Lamanites had to kill one Nephite at a time with their swords. Iran can vaporize a city in seconds or using EMP, could condemn millions to disease and starvation. Mormon did not have an opportunity, in one raid, to eliminate a threat of this size. If he did I would guess that he would go to the Lord for permission to do it.
Actually there were two preemptive strikes mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Teancum twice tried to reduce the Lamanites war making ability by sneaking into their camps to kill both Amalickiah and Ammaron. He was successful both times but sacrificed his life the second time. THIS is a proper comparison when it comes to Israel. They have been fighting Iran through Hezbollah and Hamas for decades. The war is soon to get even worse if Iran gets nuclear weapons. If Israel can do as Teancum did and “sneak” into Iran to take out their nuke weapons then it would reduce their war making ability and save the lives of millions.
Infowarrior you have fallen for the propaganda of Iran, Russia and the ‘blame America first’ crowd. Your paradigm is so ingrained that I don’t think a picture of a nuclear warhead in Iran or seeing Iranian secret plans to bomb Israel and America would dissuade you of your beliefs. You would say they were faked or ‘propaganda of the warmongers’.
The LDGs do want war. They have placed the world into a no win situation to get there. They have covered ALL the bases so they get the desired result no matter what happens. We take out Iran’s nukes and start a M.E. war that could go global. We DON”T take out the nukes and IRAN starts the global war. Either way we loose. We have a better chance to avert WW III and save more lives if we and/or Israel takes out Iranian nuke sites. If Iran gets the ‘bomb’, then its 100% sure WW III will happen.
Oldemandalton wrote:Infowarrior let us step back so we can see where we agree and disagree.
I believe that these are your positions.
1. Iran is not developing nuclear weapons and is only using enriched uranium for peaceful purposes.
I have shown in my previous posts that Iran is testing implosion devises used in nuclear detonation.
Iran is enriching uranium way beyond the 5% needed for fuel rods. 20% and still enriching.
Iran has launched a satellite into orbit meaning they have intercontinental missile technology.
Iran has fired missiles from ships in the Caspian Sea twice in the last 8 years to test the feasibility of an EMP attack on the USA.
I'm not fully convinced that Iran is a threat to the United States militarily. They could try all they like, but it will be the last time they do. We can easily thwart any ICBM. It's called "Star Wars".
Have you studied the military capabilities of Israel? If not, I think you should. They're just like the U.S. except closer.
2. Iran has never said it wanted to destroy Israel or America.
I have clearly shown this is false. Many Iranian leaders on many occasions have said that they want to destroy Israel and America. They obviously do not say it in English but they express it in public in Iran and else where, at ‘Terror Conferences’, military and political rallies, on TV, Books, News outlets, movies and over the pulpit in the Mosques. To ignore their own words and beliefs is foolish. The Iranian lobby, their English news service and Russia TV are the ones spreading lies and propaganda Infowarrior.
Iran has conducted a clandestine war against Israel and to a point America thru their proxy terrorist organizations Hamas and Hezbollah. Both of these organization’s major goal is the destruction of Israel. It is naïve to think that when Iran gets a nuclear weapon on ICBMs they would not use them to fulfill their goals they have been following for over 40 years. It is not just politics or the hatred of Jews/’Zionism’/Israel that has set them on this course to “destroy Israel and America” but their desire to see their Islamic Revolution to spreads to the rest of the Middle East AND the world. They see themselves as a leader of this Caliphate.
If you have read my posts you will also know that Ahmadinejad and Khomeini both believe and have said that they are the forerunners of the 12th Imam and want to hasten his return. Khomeini has even said he has spoken to the 12th Imam! So why would the leaders of Iran not uses whatever it takes to realize their dreams and goals. As I have said only the naïve think they won’t use them.
I guess the United States should have gone in to attack Germany before they attacked Poland, Great Britain, Russia, etc... before Japan attacked us. The only reason we won WW2, by the grace of God, is because we were not the aggressor. Have you seen the movie Minority Report?
The Lamanites swore a blood oath to wipe out the Nephites and they kept trying to do so. They were unsuccessful every time no matter how great the losses of the Nephites were. The Lord protected them until they became wicked. Same with the Israelites! Why is it all of a sudden completely different this time around?
I have a very hard time with being the guy who throws the first punch. It seems like you don't have a problem with that.
3. The Book of Mormon teaches that Israel or the US would be going against God’s word if we preemptively attacked Iranian nuclear facilities.
Comparing Mormon vs the Lamanites to the conflict Israel and America have now with Iran is like comparing apples and oranges. Neither Mormon nor George Washington had an enemy which could, with the push of one button, kill a major portion of your population in just minuets. They had months of warning before an attack. Lamanites did on occasion catch the Nephites off guard but they were not able to slaughter over 50% of the Nephites in one surprise attack. The Lamanites had to kill one Nephite at a time with their swords. Iran can vaporize a city in seconds or using EMP, could condemn millions to disease and starvation. Mormon did not have an opportunity, in one raid, to eliminate a threat of this size. If he did I would guess that he would go to the Lord for permission to do it.
Where's your faith? You don't think the Nephites were scared of what the Lamanites could do? Where's your faith that if you are in the right, no foe will prevail against you?
Actually there were two preemptive strikes mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Teancum twice tried to reduce the Lamanites war making ability by sneaking into their camps to kill both Amalickiah and Ammaron. He was successful both times but sacrificed his life the second time. THIS is a proper comparison when it comes to Israel. They have been fighting Iran through Hezbollah and Hamas for decades. The war is soon to get even worse if Iran gets nuclear weapons. If Israel can do as Teancum did and “sneak” into Iran to take out their nuke weapons then it would reduce their war making ability and save the lives of millions.
The Nephites were literally at war with the Lamanites during that incident. It's not apples and oranges at all. This is like you comparing the operation of D Day as it's own separate war.
Infowarrior you have fallen for the propaganda of Iran, Russia and the ‘blame America first’ crowd. Your paradigm is so ingrained that I don’t think a picture of a nuclear warhead in Iran or seeing Iranian secret plans to bomb Israel and America would dissuade you of your beliefs. You would say they were faked or ‘propaganda of the warmongers’.
That's fine if that's what you think, but I think you've fallen for the "pro-war" propaganda which is, in my opinion, much worse to fall for than the "anti-war" propaganda.
The LDGs do want war. They have placed the world into a no win situation to get there. They have covered ALL the bases so they get the desired result no matter what happens. We take out Iran’s nukes and start a M.E. war that could go global. We DON”T take out the nukes and IRAN starts the global war. Either way we loose. We have a better chance to avert WW III and save more lives if we and/or Israel takes out Iranian nuke sites. If Iran gets the ‘bomb’, then its 100% sure WW III will happen.
I agree with you on this. Unfortunately, one of the biggest tricks up the elite's sleeves is false flag attack. They could quite easily make it look like Iran made the first move. They don't even need to do that. The U.S. has been poking and prodding Iran where it will become inevitable for them to react. QUITE SIMPLY: I do not want to be the one on record throwing the first punch that sets the world on fire!
He is naïve to think they are not producing nuclear weapons and that if they are that they wont use them against Israel and /or the US.Infowarrior
OMD, you have said previously that you believe the LDGs want to go to war with Iran. Why, then, are you buying into all of the mainstream propaganda which tells us why we should go to war with Iran? You already said we shouldn't go to war pre-emptively. Why do you support candidates who would go to war pre-emptively? It seems like you are actually ideologically closer to Ron Paul than anyone else, but just want Ron Paul to talk tough on Iran. You want more rhetoric. You have not addressed this yet:
So, what makes Ron Paul stand out among all other Republican candidates with regards to Iran?
I do not WANT to but if everything else fails (sanctions, computer viruses, embargoes, black ops, missile defence, etc) then I see no other option. Iran with nuclear weapons WILL bring about war and deaths of millions. A strike on their nuke sites won’t.Correct me if I'm wrong, but everyone else supports the idea of pre-emptively striking Iran. So, if you personally DO NOT want to pre-emptively strike Iran, why would you vote for anyone who does?
I don’t know of a candidate who is eager to strike at Iran. I would expect them not to. That is different than saying they want to bring every single Soldier, Sailor, Marine, and Airman home and that it would be OK with them if Iran had nukes.If any of the front runners DO NOT support a pre-emptive strike on Iran, then doesn't it really all come down to just "talkin' tough" on Iran? Do you just want someone who "talks tough"?
1.Iran has said repeatedly they want to destroy Israel and the United States.So.. China has nuclear weapons... North Korea has nuclear weapons... are we the police of the world with them? Why haven't we gone in to take them out? I know this may sound wacky... but... what in the world gives us the right to tell another sovereign nation that they can't have nuclear weapons? Does might make right?
Don’t drink the kool aid from either camp InfoWarrior. You can know the nuclear capabilities of Iran, their goals and evil beliefs, and what they have said without wanting to go to war. What is wrong about knowing the truth and still oppose a pre-emptive strike on Iran? I do not want to either. Like I said no one wants too. Bush the ‘warmonger’ didn’t neither has the 'evil' nation of Israel. Everyone is hoping Iran backs off its ambition to build nukes. That would be the best result all round.You may think I'm drinking the kool aid from certain groups, but I'd rather side with people giving me reasons not to go to war than listen to people telling me that we should go to war.
No but England, France and the other European countries should have stood up to Hitler in the beginning. We may have not had a WW II if they had. Japan would not have attacked us without the backing of a German ally.InfoWarrior
I guess the United States should have gone in to attack Germany before they attacked Poland, Great Britain, Russia, etc... before Japan attacked us. The only reason we won WW2, by the grace of God, is because we were not the aggressor. Have you seen the movie Minority Report?
The Nephites defeated the Lamanites through force of arms. The Israelis, so far, have also.The Lamanites swore a blood oath to wipe out the Nephites and they kept trying to do so. Same as Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah. They were unsuccessful every time no matter how great the losses of the Nephites were. The Lord protected them until they became wicked. Same with the Israelites! Why is it all of a sudden completely different this time around?
No, the first punch was given by Iran through Hamas and Hezbollah decades ago. This is an on-going war and just as the Nephites had to fight in their own land so have the Israelis.I have a very hard time with being the guy who throws the first punch. It seems like you don't have a problem with that.
I am sure Moroni was afraid for his people when the Lamanites over ran many of their border cities. He never gave up and just went about his business to defeat the Lamanites to save his people. The Israelis are doing the same thing against their enemies. The difference is that the Lamanites could not wipe out several Nephite cities in just minutes as the Iranians can do today.Where's your faith? You don't think the Nephites were scared of what the Lamanites could do? Where's your faith that if you are in the right, no foe will prevail against you?
It is not as different as you think. Iran has funded, supplied the arms and missiles and has trained the Hamas and Hezbollah troops in their war against Israel. Amalickiah and Ammaron had done the same thing. They instigated hatred toward the Nephites, trained and armed them and sent them to the Land of the Nephites to war. Teancum knew that if he could kill Amalickiah and Ammaron it would hurt the Lamanites’ war effort in which case it did.The Nephites were literally at war with the Lamanites during that incident. It's not apples and oranges at all. This is like you comparing the operation of D Day as it's own separate war.
I don’t think its "pro-war" propaganda but rather the truth of what the goals are of Iran (using their own words) and what the nuclear capabilities they are achieving. In order to make a decision you need to know the whole truth. THEN you can weigh the pros and cons to make a decision whether to strike Iran’s nukes is better than absorbing a first strike. So far both Israel and America has decided to wait. This tells you they are not eager to attack and are trying everything else first.OMD
Infowarrior you have fallen for the propaganda of Iran, Russia and the ‘blame America first’ crowd. Your paradigm is so ingrained that I don’t think a picture of a nuclear warhead in Iran or seeing Iranian secret plans to bomb Israel and America would dissuade you of your beliefs. You would say they were faked or ‘propaganda of the warmongers’.
InfoWarrior;
That's fine if that's what you think, but I think you've fallen for the "pro-war" propaganda which is, in my opinion, much worse to fall for than the "anti-war" propaganda.
Neither do Israel or America. That’s why they have been using non-military means, so far, to try and persuade Iran from building nuclear warheads for ICBMs. Like I said before, America could absorb a missile strike if it was on a city but not a full EMP attack. Israel could not afford either. Imagine being an Israeli leader who has to decide whether to let Iran finish building nukes and see several of their cities go up in ashes and be responsible for a major portion of their population being killed because of inaction, or attack Iranian nuke sites and start a regional war that could go global. I do not envy their situation at all.OMD:
The LDGs do want war. They have placed the world into a no win situation to get there. They have covered ALL the bases so they get the desired result no matter what happens. We take out Iran’s nukes and start a M.E. war that could go global. We DON”T take out the nukes and IRAN starts the global war. Either way we loose. We have a better chance to avert WW III and save more lives if we and/or Israel takes out Iranian nuke sites. If Iran gets the ‘bomb’, then its 100% sure WW III will happen.
InfoWarrior
I agree with you on this. Unfortunately, one of the biggest tricks up the elite's sleeves is false flag attack. They could quite easily make it look like Iran made the first move. They don't even need to do that. The U.S. has been poking and prodding Iran where it will become inevitable for them to react. QUITE SIMPLY: I do not want to be the one on record throwing the first punch that sets the world on fire!