Fanatical Islam

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PunaGabe
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:I believe that fanatical Islam is Islam too poor or politically prohibited from living in the U.S.. Once they get here they are good muslims. They're just mad about missing the party thrown by the Saudi royal family here every weekend.

Seriously though I think that the threat of fanatical Islam is equal and of no greater threat than "militias" in the U.S. (which are on our soil).

I believe that the Palestinians have a just cause in fighting Israel and that Israel has a just cause in fighting against them. The jews were forced on them and took over, but the world had turned it's back on them (especially the U.S. with the immigration acts of '21 & '24, which if not done, there would probably be like 3 jews in Jerusalem today as most were heading here before they were cut off and even put in quarantine camps). Israel does mean things to palestinians routinely and they try to get even every chance they can though their impotence is obvious as is the whole Arab worlds as illistrated by the history of Jewish/Arab conflict.

When would I fight them? When they threaten my homeland and then by way of removing the threat only (not by way of genocide nor cultur-cide).
People need to read the constitution. Americans have the the right to form a well regulated militia to secure a free state and OUR right to bear arms shall NOT be infringed!!!!!!!!!!!! READ IT! 2ND AMENDMENT :D

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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My point exactly.

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Oldemandalton
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Egypt Islamists take two-thirds of 2nd-round vote

By Sherine El Madany

CAIRO | Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:08pm EST

(Reuters) - Egypt's two leading Islamist parties won about two-thirds of votes for party lists in the second round of polling for a parliament that will help draft a new constitution after decades of autocratic rule, the election committee said Saturday.

The party list led by the Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party (FJP) won 36.3 percent of the list vote, while the ultra-conservative Salafi al-Nour Party took 28.8 percent, pushing the liberal Wafd party into third place.

The vote, staged over six weeks, is the first free election Egypt has held after the 30-year rule of President Hosni Mubarak, who routinely rigged polls before he was overthrown by a popular uprising in February.

The West long looked to Mubarak and other strongmen in the region to help combat Islamist militants, and has watched warily as Islamist parties have topped votes in Tunisia, Morocco and now Egypt.

Parliament's prime job will be appointing a 100-strong assembly to write a new constitution which will define the president's powers and parliament's clout in the new Egypt.

Second-round results for party lists gave the liberal Wafd Party 9.6 percent of the vote. The Egyptian Bloc of mostly liberal and leftist parties won 7 percent of the list vote.

Analysts say poor coordination among non-Islamist groups has divided the liberal vote, sometimes handing the majority to an Islamist by default.

TRANSITION

The election, which began on November 28 and ends on January 11, has been marred by a flare-up of clashes in Cairo between police and protesters demanding an immediate end to military rule.

At least 17 people were killed in the protests, in which troops clubbed women and men even as they lay on the ground.

The ruling army council fuelled suspicions it wanted to hang on to power, even after a new president was elected, when its cabinet last month proposed inserting articles in the new constitution that would have shielded it from civilian scrutiny.

The army took over after Mubarak was ousted and remains in charge until a presidential election in mid-2012, but parliament will have a popular mandate that the military lacks.

In the first round of the poll, the Brotherhood's FJP won about 37 percent of list votes and Nour about 24 percent.

The complex electoral system gives two-thirds of the 498 elected seats to lists and the rest to individuals.

The FJP said it had won 40 of the 60 individual seats up for grabs in the second round, similar to its first-round showing.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/ ... C620111224

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Oldemandalton
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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‘Nigerian Taliban’ Bombings Kill Dozens in Christmas Day Church Attacks

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AP

LAGOS, Nigeria (AP) — An explosion ripped through a Catholic church during Christmas Mass near Nigeria’s capital Sunday, killing at least 25 people there, officials said. A radical Muslim sect claimed the attack and another bombing near a church in the restive city of Jos, as explosions also struck the nation’s northeast.

The Christmas Day attacks show the growing national ambition of the sect known as Boko Haram — dubbed the “Nigerian Taliban” — which is responsible for at least 495 killings this year alone, according to an Associated Press count. The assaults come a year after a series of Christmas Eve bombings in Jos claimed by the militants left at least 32 dead and 74 wounded.

The first explosion on Sunday struck St. Theresa Catholic Church in Madalla, a town in Niger state close to the capital, Abuja, authorities said. Rescue workers recovered at least 25 bodies from the church and officials continued to tally those wounded in various hospitals, said Slaku Luguard, a coordinator with Nigeria’s National Emergency Management Agency.

His agency already has acknowledged it didn’t have enough ambulances immediately on hand to help the wounded. Luguard also said an angry crowd that gathered at the blast site hampered rescue efforts as they refused to allow workers inside.

“We’re trying to calm the situation,” Luguard said. “There are some angry people around trying to cause problems.”

In Jos, a second explosion struck near a Mountain of Fire and Miracles Church, government spokesman Pam Ayuba said. Ayuba said gunmen later opened fire on police guarding the area, killing one police officer. Two other locally made explosives were found in a nearby building and disarmed, he said.

“The military are here on ground and have taken control over the entire place,” Ayuba said.

Image
AP

The city of Jos is located on the dividing line between Nigeria’s predominantly Christian south and Muslim north. Thousands have died in communal clashes there over the last decade.

After the bombings, a Boko Haram spokesman using the nom de guerre Abul-Qaqa claimed responsibility for the attacks in an interview with The Daily Trust, the newspaper of record across Nigeria’s Muslim north. The sect has used the newspaper in the past to communicate with public.



The U.S. Embassy in Nigeria’s capital of Abuja had issued a warning Friday to citizens to be “particularly vigilant” around churches, large crowds and areas where foreigners congregate.

Several days of fighting in and around the northeastern city of Damaturu between the sect and security forces already had killed at least 61 people, authorities said.

On Sunday, local police commissioner Tanko Lawan said several explosions had struck Damaturu, including a suicide car bombing. Lawan said that the blasts happened around noon, targeting the headquarters of Nigeria’s secret police, the State Security Service, in the area.

The State Security Service later issued a statement saying the bomber targeted a senior military commander and killed three officers in the attack.

In the last year, Boko Haram has carried out increasingly bloody attacks in its campaign to implement strict Shariah law across Nigeria, a nation of more than 160 million people.

Boko Haram claimed responsibility for a Nov. 4 attack on Damaturu, Yobe state’s capital, that killed more than 100 people. The group also claimed the Aug. 24 suicide car bombing of the U.N. headquarters in Nigeria’s capital that killed 24 people and wounded 116 others.

The sect came to national prominence in 2009, when its members rioted and burned police stations near its base of Maiduguri, a dusty northeastern city on the cusp of the Sahara Desert. Nigeria’s military violently put down the attack, crushing the sect’s mosque into shards as its leader was arrested and died in police custody. About 700 people died during the violence.

While initially targeting enemies via hit-and-run assassinations from the back of motorbikes after the 2009 riot, violence by Boko Haram now has a new sophistication and apparent planning that includes high-profile attacks with greater casualties.

Boko Haram has splintered into three factions, with one wing increasingly willing to kill as it maintains contact with terror groups in North Africa and Somalia, diplomats and security sources say.

Sect members are scattered throughout northern Nigeria and nearby Cameroon, Chad and Niger.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/nigeria ... y-attacks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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Do you spend as much time cataloging Western atrocities? Just curious.

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Oldemandalton
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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No, SwissMrs&Pitchfire, the “blame America/Israel first club” don’t need my help. There are plenty here on this forum.

I realize that pointing out that fanatical Islam is evil and hates Christians, Jews and moderate Muslims alike, and that America and the Jews are not the cause of it, is very damaging to your paradigm. My suggestion would be to avoid this and other threads so you will have peace of mind knowing that America and Israel are to blame for all of the ills of the world. :D

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Fairminded
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It must be awfully nice to live in a world where everything is black and white. America is good, terrorists are bad, an unquestionably evil religion with over a billion people exists only to destroy us for no apparent reason and anything the government does to "protect" us is perfectly reasonable, commies are Satan's tools to bring about the end of the world, and above all you're on the good guys' side and all the bad in the world is the other guys.

Heck, a man could sleep easy, believing all that. No wonder it's the predominant viewpoint.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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No, SwissMrs&Pitchfire, the “blame America/Israel first club” don’t need my help. There are plenty here on this forum.
No claim to ANY objectivity then?

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kathyn
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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The problem with most of the world right now is that wickedness and the Destroyer reign. There's evil everywhere and I doubt any country is very righteous now. And though the majority of muslims are like everyone else, there are fanatics who are very militant and dangerous. That doesn't excuse our country's wickedness, but I don't really see many Christians or Jews beheading people they don't like. Militant Islam is making inroads in many countries, such as Thailand, Nigeria, the Sudan, etc. And they bring death and destruction to those places. (And yes, you can argue that the West does, too, but the brutality of beheading school girls and Christians is the hallmark of Islamists.)

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Oldemandalton
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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I have stated elsewhere that we are not innocent of wrong doing. We should have not propped up tyrants and despot in the ME and around the world. Iraq was a mistake , not our first nor the last. America is not innocent never said it was.

“Blame America/Israel Firsters” only see one side of the problem. Hate does not need a reason to exist, just a target. America and Israel are targets because we are the last bastions of freedoms left in the world and in the ME, even if those bastions have crumbled over decades of erosion by our ‘enemies within’. Also we are targets in the “War in Heaven” which is still being fought against us by Satan and the forces of evil because we both have a role to play in these the last days. Both will hold the capitals of the Millennium and Lucifer has an interest in seeing them destroyed. He is not only using his resources from the outside in the form of terrorists and hostile countries but also the slow destruction of our freedoms from within. Satan has had 6 thousand years of practice in taking down democracies and republics. America, Israel, and the rest of the world are next.

Freedom is a fragile thing and is never more than one generation away from extinction. It is not ours by inheritance; it must be fought for and defended constantly by each generation, for it comes only once to a people. Those who have known freedom and then lost it have never known it again.
Ronald Reagan

ktg
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Re: Fanatical Islam

Post by ktg »

Thomas wrote:I believe in the rules of engagement laid out in D&C 98:

Verse 33: And again, this is the "law"that I gave unto mine ancients, that they should not go out into battle against any nation, kindred, tongue or people, save I, the Lord,commanded them.

34: And if any nation, tongue or people should proclaim war against them, they should first lift an standard of peace unto that people, nation or tongue.

35:And if that people did not accept the offering of peace, neither the second nor the third time,they should bring these testimonies before the Lord;

36:Then I, the Lord, would give unto them a commandment, and justify them going out to battle against that nation, tongue or people.

37: And I the Lord would fight their their battles, and their children's battles, and their children's children's until they had avenged themselves on all their enemies, to the third and fourth generation.

I believe their is a radical Isalm organization bent on destroying us, however I don't think they are our greatest threat to safety. I Believe they are controlled by others who also seek our destruction. There is too much scripture and warning from prophets to ignore on this issue. Satan works in the ways of deception and darkness. He uses feints within feints to draw our attention, then slips in the knife from an unexpected place. We must rely on the Lord for Protection.
+1. I'll add that Ezra Taft Benson said:
"If American freedom is lost, if America is destroyed, if our blood-bought freedom is surrendered, it will be because of Americans. . . . The facts are clear. Our problem centers in Washington, D.C. And this applies to the administration of both political parties."
and
"There is one and only one legitimate goal of United States foreign policy. It is a narrow goal, a nationalistic goal: the preservation of our national independence. Nothing in the Constitution grants that the president shall have the privilege of offering himself as a world leader. He is our executive; he is on our payroll; he is supposed to put our best interests in front of those of other nations. Nothing in the Constitution nor in logic grants to the president of the United States or to Congress the power to influence the political life of other countries, to ‘uplift’ their cultures, to bolster their economies, to feed their people, or even to defend them against their enemies."

If we trust in the Lord, we'll have a LOT less to worry about than if we continue down the path we've been on, trusting in the arm of flesh.

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Oldemandalton
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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The Last Best Hope of Man on Earth.



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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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but I don't really see many Christians or Jews beheading people they don't like.
Does it really matter how we kill them? The poor nations do it by hand and we do it en masse with bombs. Not sure how that changes anything.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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“Blame America/Israel Firsters” only see one side of the problem.
I haven't seen anybody that fits that description here and yet you constantly use the term to describe anybody that thinks that we have a moral obligation to remove the beam from our own eye before removing anything from another's. We all acknowledge both sides repeatedly but we also point out our errors as opposed to you who by your own admission only are concerned with the mote in their eye (as there are plenty who only care about the beam in ours). What does that make you then an "Excuse America/Israel firster?" That's not just nor merciful , that's bias respecter of persons false loyalty love them in their sins false patriotism. The most patriotic souls are those tending to her virtue through repentance not out there trying to marry her off in a white dress whilst her reputation is soiled pretending she's the proverbial virgin.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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Given the many quotes like this:
The internal fires of revolution are already smouldering in this nation, and they need but a spark to set them in a flame. Already are agencies at work in the land calculated to subvert and overthrow every principle of rule and government; already is corruption of every kind prevailing in high places and permeating all society; already are we, as a nation, departing from our God and corrupting ourselves with malfeasance, dishonor and a lack of public integrity and good faith; already are licentiousness and debauchery corrupting, undermining and destroying society; already are we interfering with the laws of nature and stopping the functions of life, and have become the slayers of our own offspring, and employ human butchers in the shape of physicians to assist in this diabolical and murderous work. The sins of this nation, the licentiousness, the debauchery, the murders are entering into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and I tell you now, from the tops of these mountains, as a humble servant of the living God, that unless these cries and infamies are stopped, this nation will be overthrown and its glory, power, dominion and wealth will fade away like the dews of a summer morning. I also say to other nations of the earth, that unless they repent of their crimes, their iniquities and abominations, their thrones will be overturned, their kingdoms and governments overthrown, and their lands made desolate. This is not only my saying, but it is the saying of those ancient prophets which they themselves profess to believe; for God will speedily have a controversy with the nations of the earth, and, as I stated before, the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way to overthrow governments, to destroy dynasties, to lay waste thrones, kingdoms and empires, to spread abroad anarchy and desolation, and to cause war, famine and bloodshed to overspread the earth. (John Taylor, JD 23:62-63, 1882)
The great American Republic is now one of the most powerful governments in the world . . . . But that great–that powerful nation–is destined to an utter overthrow. If it be asked, why is America to suffer? The answer is, because they have rejected the kingdom of God, and one of the greatest divine messages ever sent to man; because they have sanctioned the killing of the Saints, and the martyrdom of the Lord’s Prophets, and have suffered his people to be driven from their midst, and have robbed them of their houses, and homes, and land, and millions of property, and have refused to redress their wrongs.(Orson Pratt, Mill Star, 28:633-34, 1866; Masterful Discourses of Orson Pratt, pp. 156-157)
The nation that kills the prophets of God in any age must expect to reap cursings instead of blessings, unless it speedily repent. Judgment must begin at the house of God first, and we are perfectly willing it should….I told General Kane that the Government of the United States would be shivered to pieces. (Brigham Young, JD 12:119, 1867)
God has sent forth His warning message in the midst of this nation, but they have rejected it and treated His servants with contempt; the Lord has gathered out His people from their midst, and has planted them here in these mountains; and He will speedily fulfill the prophecy in relation to the overthrow of this nation, and their destruction. We shall be obliged to have a government to preserve ourselves in unity and peace; for they, through being wasted away, will not have the power to govern; for state will be divided against state, city against city, town against town, and the whole country will be in terror and confusion; mobocracy will prevail and there will be no security, through this great Republic, for the lives or property of the people. (Orson Pratt, Deseret Evening News, Oct. 2, 1875)
When I contemplate the condition of our nation, and see that wickedness and abominations are increasing, so much so that the whole heavens groan and weep over the abominations of this nation and the nations of the earth, I ask myself the question, can the American nation escape? The answer comes, No; its destruction, as well as the destruction of the world, is sure;(Wilford Woodruff, JD 21:301-02, 1880)
And when the nation with which we are associated is shaken to its centre and crumbles to pieces…it will continue to fall and to crumble, until it is no more, and by and bye there will be an end of it. Not so with the kingdom of God; it will stand, and continue to exist and spread and go forth. . . . (John Taylor, JD 11:26, 1864)
While discussing the petition to Congress, I prophesied, by virtue of the holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government. (Joseph Smith, DHC 6:116)
As a member of this church, in this nation what do you think should be our voice of warning? Shall it be the as the words of the prophets or something else?

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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Our duty is first to God, self, spouse, kids, extended family, ward/branch, neighbors, community, state, nation etc...

The Islamic/Israeli folks are so far down that line and so far from being a clear and present danger that we hardly pay them any mind except to pray for them.

If we can set our houses in order we'll be doing good, let alone our wards and stakes, let alone our states and nation (which we know by prophecy isn't going to happen).

Why get our priorities mixed up? Is your house so well set in order as to have extracurricular time to set your ward in order? Your community? Your State? Your nation? Another nation/s?

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Re: Fanatical Islam

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:|
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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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called them Vipers, Hypocrites and from the Synogogue (chruch) of Satan.
Funny to think that He is still being vilified as an anti-Semite (His views and teachings denounced as anti-Semitic) and denounced by them! He the salt and leaven of Judah and all! He the King of all Kings!

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Oldemandalton
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
I haven't seen anybody that fits that description here and yet you constantly use the term to describe anybody that thinks that we have a moral obligation to remove the beam from our own eye before removing anything from another's. We all acknowledge both sides repeatedly but we also point out our errors as opposed to you who by your own admission only are concerned with the mote in their eye (as there are plenty who only care about the beam in ours). What does that make you then an "Excuse America/Israel firster?" That's not just nor merciful , that's bias respecter of persons false loyalty love them in their sins false patriotism. The most patriotic souls are those tending to her virtue through repentance not out there trying to marry her off in a white dress whilst her reputation is soiled pretending she's the proverbial virgin.
The Blame-America-First Crowd

ByMichael Barone

"They always blame America first." That was Jeane Kirkpatrick, describing the "San Francisco Democrats" in 1984. But it could be said about a lot of Americans, especially highly educated Americans, today.

In their assessment of what is going on in the world, they seem to start off with a default assumption that we are in the wrong. The "we" can take different forms: the United States government, the vast mass of middle-class Americans, white people, affluent people, churchgoing people or the advanced English-speaking countries. Such people are seen as privileged and selfish, greedy and bigoted, rash and violent. If something bad happens, the default assumption is that it's their fault. They always blame America -- or the parts of America they don't like -- first.

Where does this default assumption come from? And why is it so prevalent among our affluent educated class (which, after all, would seem to overlap considerably with the people being complained about?). It comes, I think, from our schools and, especially, from our colleges and universities. The first are staffed by liberals long accustomed to see America as full of problems needing solving; the latter have been packed full of the people cultural critic Roger Kimball calls "tenured radicals," people who see this country and its people as the source of all evil in the world.
On campuses, students are bombarded with denunciations of dead white males and urged to engage in the deconstruction of all past learning and scholarship.

Not all of this takes, of course. Most students have enough good sense to see that the campus radicals' description of the world is wildly at odds with reality. But this battering away at ideas of truth and goodness does have some effect. Very many of our university graduates emerge with the default assumption thoroughly wired into their mental software. And, it seems, they carry it with them for most of their adult lives.

The default assumption predisposes them to believe that if there is slaughter in Darfur, it is our fault; if there are IEDs in Iraq, it is our fault; if peasants in Latin America are living in squalor, it is our fault; if there are climate changes that have any bad effect on anybody, it is our fault. What they have been denied in their higher education is an accurate view of history and America's place in it. Many adults actively seek what they have been missing: witness the robust sales of books on the Founding Fathers. Witness, also, the robust sales of British historian Andrew Roberts's splendid "History of the English-Speaking Peoples Since 1900."

Roberts points out almost all the advances of freedom in the 20th century have been made by the English-speaking peoples -- Americans especially, but British, as well, and also (here his account will be unfamiliar to most American readers) Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders. And he recalls what held and holds them together by quoting a speech Winston Churchill gave in 1943 at Harvard: "Law, language, literature -- these are considerable factors. Common conceptions of what is right and decent, a marked regard for fair play, especially to the weak and poor, a stern sentiment of impartial justice and above all a love of personal freedom ... these are the common conceptions on both sides of the ocean among the English-speaking peoples."

Churchill recorded these things in his four-volume history of the English-speaking peoples up to 1900: the development of the common law, guarantees of freedom, representative government, independent courts.

More recently, Adam Hochschild, in his excellent "Breaking the Chains," tells the story of the extraordinary English men and women, motivated by deep religious belief, who successfully persuaded Britain to abolish the slave trade and then slavery itself. Their example was followed in time, and after a bloody struggle, by likeminded Americans. The default assumption portrays American slavery as uniquely evil (which it wasn't) and ignores the fact the first campaign to abolish slavery was worded in English.

The default assumption gets this almost precisely upside down. Yes, there are faults in our past. But Americans and the English-speaking peoples have been far more often the lifters of oppression than the oppressors.

"There is something profoundly wrong when opposition to the war in Iraq seems to inspire greater passion than opposition to Islamist extremism," Sen. Joseph Lieberman said in a speech last week. What is profoundly wrong is that too many of us are operating off the default assumption and have lost sight of who our real enemies are.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... crowd.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Libertarians and Liberals have several things in common one of them is to Blame America First.

Here are a few of the myths of the Blame America/Israel Firsters:

We caused 9/11 and/or deserved it.

We caused the terrorism against our country, without our interventions in the ME there would be no terrorism.

Israel is to blame for terrorist attacks on their men, women, and children.

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Oldemandalton
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Re: Fanatical Islam

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire, great quotes. I just see them in a wider context.

As I mentioned in another thread that when we as individuals sin we lose the blessings of Heavenly Father and are thus cursed by the consequence of our actions and do not receive the help of the Holy Ghost nor God’s angels. The same goes for nations and people. When they collectively go against God then THEY as a group are cursed by having blessing and help from God taken away. God does not cause our misery nor does he do evil towards His Children, He loves us. What God does is leave us to our own consequences and not give the help we had received while being obedient to Him. You can see how God blessed us countless times in America’s history and in the history of the nation of Israel. We can also see when we suffer the consequences of our sins, such as the sin of slavery. We ‘paid’ or suffered the consequences for that sin through the Civil War. We are building up more condemnation and consequences for our present day sins of Abortion, depravity, and international adventurism. We will experience the consequences for those and many other sins till we repent as a nation.

Are we supposed to hate the sinner or the sin? Yes we should forgive and be vigilant that the sinner does not harm us again but we should also not place blame upon him that is underserved just because he did it to us last time.

Are we counselled to rail against the mistakes that our neighbour makes or to forgive?

Do we accuse the adulterer of every act of adultery in the neighbourhood even if they are not at fault?

As we are taking the beam out of our eye do we poke around for others that aren’t there?

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Re: Fanatical Islam

Post by Fairminded »

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:Our duty is first to God, self, spouse, kids, extended family, ward/branch, neighbors, community, state, nation etc...

The Islamic/Israeli folks are so far down that line and so far from being a clear and present danger that we hardly pay them any mind except to pray for them.

If we can set our houses in order we'll be doing good, let alone our wards and stakes, let alone our states and nation (which we know by prophecy isn't going to happen).

Why get our priorities mixed up? Is your house so well set in order as to have extracurricular time to set your ward in order? Your community? Your State? Your nation? Another nation/s?
I've enjoyed reading your posts SM&P, and I agree with most of what you say, but I'm not sure I can agree with this 100%. Yes, our priority should be our own families and our own lives, but at the same time people focusing only on the needs of them and their loved ones to the exclusion of all else is why things can get worse and worse in the world around them. Evil men thrive when good men only worry about their own needs. In fact, evil men rely on good people being so consumed in their own affairs that they don't even notice what's going on, let alone speak out against it.

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Re: Fanatical Islam

Post by Oldemandalton »

‘liberty’ belle
Remember the Talmud is the written instruction from the Oral Tradition of the Pharasees and Scribes. This doctrine of the Pharasees was taught and practiced in the day of Jesus and was what lead to his Crucifiction because he called them Vipers, Hypocrites and from the Synogogue (chruch) of Satan. He denounced their teachings as false and was pointing the Jews back the Torah, the Law. It kind of reminds me of Ron Paul in a way. RP is doing whatever he can to turn the citizens of America back to the Law---the Constitution Just as Jesus was turing the Jews back the Torah. This is why the plotted against him, they could not have Jesus taking away their authority and power over the people.They were above God (the Talmud even teaches that God does not have authority to interpet, only the Pharasees) and Jesus reminded them that the Law came from God and THEY were subject to it.

Ron Paul=Jesus =)) =)) =)) =))
‘liberty’ belle
This same Talmud was re-embraced when Khazars converted to Judaism. They spent a lot of time having the Rabbi's teaching the Talmud to the new converts. It is today what is taught in the schools and in Rabbinacle schools.


A myth that I debunked ‘liberty’ bell. Only the aristocracy of the Khazars converted to Judaism.
‘liberty’ belle
It is embraced today by Orthodox Jews who deny the Tanak (Old Testament and New Testament) The Karaite Jews embrace the Tanak but reject the Talmud and the New Testament.
Another lie ‘liberty’ belle.
Orthodox Judaism

Orthodox Judaism is not a unified movement with a single governing body, but many different movements adhering to common principles. All of the Orthodox movements are very similar in their observance and beliefs, differing only in the details that are emphasized. They also differ in their attitudes toward modern culture and the state of Israel. They all share one key feature: a dedication to Torah, both Written and Oral.

The Torah

The Torah is also known as the Chumash, Pentateuch or Five Books of Moses.

The Written Law

The Written Law consists of the books of the Hebrew Bible, the Tanakh. The term "Bible" is more commonly used by non-Jews, as are the terms "Old Testament" and "New Testament." The appropriate term for Jews to use for the Hebrew Bible is "Tanakh." Tanakh is an acronym for Torah, Nevi'im (Prophets) and Ketuvim (Writings).

The Oral Law

…Strangely enough, the Oral Law today is a written law, codified in the Mishna and Talmud. Orthodox Judaism believes that most of the oral traditions recorded in these books dates back to God's revelation to Moses on Mount Sinai. When God gave Moses the Torah, Orthodoxy teaches, He simultaneously provided him all the details found in the Oral Law. It is believed that Moses subsequently transmitted that Oral Law to his successor, Joshua, who transmitted it to his successor, in a chain that is still being carried on (Ethics of the Fathers 1:1).

Given this chain of authority, one might wonder why the Mishna and Talmud are filled with debates between rabbis; shouldn't they have all been recipients of the same, unambiguous tradition? Orthodox teachers respond that the debates came about either because students forgot some of the details transmitted by their teachers, or because the Oral Law lacks specific teachings on the issue being discussed…. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... hodox.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
‘liberty’ bell
Here are some things taught in the Talmud:
Expressly denies Jesus as the Christ and actually says that he was the offspring of a prostitute and/or the son of a Roman Soldier.
Another lie. The Talmud does not mention Jesus Christ. It does mention a couple of ‘Jesus’s’, a common Jewish name, but neither one is alive at the time of our Christ.
Theories
Hazy History

Some historians consider all of the above passages to refer to Jesus. Granted, there are many difficulties in tying all of the details together, particulary the historical timeframes. However, these historians claim "that chronology was not a science in which the rabbis excelled, or one in which they laid stress upon accuracy" [RT Herford, Chritianity in Talmud & Midrash, p. 347]. The rabbis of the talmud had a hazy memory of Jesus and embellished upon it in order to villainize him. The inconsistencies among the various stories are of no consequence because the rabbis did not care. Thus, Jesus is Yeshu is Ben Stada is Ben Pandira. Mary Magdalene is called Jesus' mother due to some vague familiarity with the gospel story. Jesus' execution was recalled but only some details remembered. In fact, these historians found many more references to Jesus in the talmud that did not use his name [discussed here]. Herford lists about twenty different passages that he claims refer to Jesus and still concludes that "it is remarkable how very little the talmud does say about Jesus" [ibid.].

This was at one time the standard approach of historians. However, the obvious bias against talmudic rabbis and the wanton attribution of nameless passages has since given way to a more balanced approach among academics.

Goldstein, in his highly respected doctoral dissertation Jesus in the Jewish Tradition, argues against the attribution to Jesus of various references in the talmud, such as Balaam and "a certain person". In his view, this is finding in the texts what one was a priori looking for [Cf. Goldstein, pp. 57-81]. Joseph Klausner does not consider the Ben Stada passages as referring to Jesus [Joseph Klausner, Jesus of Nazareth, pp. 20-23]. Johann Maier concurs and adds that Ben Pandira had no connection to Jesus either [Johann Maier, Jesus von Nazareth in der talmudischen Uberlieferung, p. 237, cited in John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew, vol. I p. 106 n. 45]. Maier further denies that the passage in Sanhedrin 43a about the execution and disciples of Yeshu has anything to do with Jesus [Maier, p. 229, cited in Meier vol. I p. 107 n. 51]. John P. Meier, a Catholic priest and author of the most recent and highly acclaimed scholarly analysis of the evidence of Jesus' life, A Marginal Jew, which has even been added to the Anchor Bible Reference Library, takes a middle ground and says "While not accepting the full, radical approach of Maier, I think we can agree with him on one basic point: in the earliest rabbinic sources, there is no clear or even probable reference to Jesus of Nazareth" [Meier, vol. I p. 98].

Meier also adds what seems to be a direct answer to Herford's remark quoted above. Meier says "Hence, apart from Josephus, Jewish literature of the early Christian period offers no independent source for inquiry into the historical Jesus. Indeed, why should it? Engaged in a fierce struggle for its own survival and definition, early rabbinic Judaism had other matters on its mind -- matters that, from its own perspective, were much more important" [Meier, ibid.].

Many modern historians detect different strata of texts from different ages within the talmudic period. The passages originally referred to different people named Yeshu, Ben Stada, and Ben Pandira, none of whom were Jesus. Over time, different generations of talmudic rabbis melded the passages together with added phrases and details. However, according to Johann Maier, none of these passages ever related to Jesus. Some scholars, such as Joseph Klausner and John P. Meier, believe that some of the later additions were meant to refer to Jesus, while the original basic text did not. It is therefore very difficult to determine what, if anything, the talmud actually says about Jesus.

These attempts at literary analysis of the talmud, while not quite heretical to traditional Jews, are certainly anathema. We will therefore try to use the literature of more traditional historical views of the talmudic passages along with some classic rabbinic commentaries to understand the subjects of these texts.

Two Yeshus

The standard rabbinic understanding of these passages is that these passages refer to at least two different people [cf. Tosafot HaRosh, Sotah 47a sv Yeshu, Shabbat 104b sv Ben Stada; Tosafot (uncensored) Shabbat 104b sv Ben Stada; R. Abraham Zacuto, Sefer Hayuchasin 5:6, R. Natan David Rabinowitz, Binu Shenot Dor Vador, pp. 422-425] . The first lived in the first half of the first century BCE during the reign of Alexander Janneus. The second lived in the first half of the second century CE, during the time of the Roman persecution that led to Rabbi Akiva's tragic death.

The first, Yeshu Ben Pandira, started his own sect and had many followers. His heretical and idolatrous teachings lasted centuries after his life but, like so many Jewish sects, slowly died out after the destruction of the Temple.

The second, Ben Stada, was simply a public idolater from an illustrious family who was caught and punished.

The only connections between the two are their fathers' names, that they were executed on the day before Passover, and that they both spent time in Egypt. The first is probably a mere coincidence because, as pointed out above, Panthera (which in Hebrew and Aramaic is equivalent of Pandira) was a common name.

Ben Stada may have been executed on the day before Passover in Lud out of deference for his illustrious step-father. On that day, most people were gathered in Jerusalem preparing their Passover sacrifices and very few people would have witnessed the execution in Lud. Yeshu Ben Pandira may have been executed on the day before Passover in Jerusalem for the exact opposite reason. Since he was the leader of a heretical sect, the court may have wished that the crowd in Jerusalem would see his execution and learn that his sect was a deviation from the true Judaism.

Their both having spent time in Egypt is similar to two American Jews today both visiting New York City at some time in their lives. From the year 307 BCE to the year 113 CE, Alexandria had one of the largest and most illustrious Jewish communities in the world. Its hundreds of thousands of Jews had a very large and active Jewish community, which is probably why R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah and Yeshu were able to hide there . The Alexandrian community was also noted for its affinity to Hellenistic culture. Its most famous product, Philo, wrote exclusively in Greek and propounded a very Hellenistic philosophy which some consider to be heretical to Judaism [see Samuel Belkin's introduction to Midreshei Philon]. It is certainly not surprising that the young Ben Pandira's visit to this thriving Jewish center led him to accept a hybrid Jewish-Hellenist religion that was considered idolatry by traditional Jews. http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
‘liberty’ belle
The Talmud also condones sexual relations with children and makes laws for how and when they can call the child a virgin, etc. This part of the their "law" is disgusting and gives new meaning to Jesus' statement about offending a child.
How many lies can one post contain!?
The Talmud Does Not Permit Sex With A Three Year Old

Written by Gil Student
The Accusation
Yebhamot 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age."

The accusation here is quite nefarious. It implies that Judaism permits pedophilia, has no respect for women, and generally advocates loose sexual morals. To those familiar with the Talmud, this claim is patently ridiculous. However, the majority of people — particularly those making this claim — know little to nothing about the Talmud, its contents, or its methodology. On our website The Real Truth About The Talmud, we elaborate on these issues. However, for now, we will focus on the accusation at hand. It is, in fact, easily verified as being incorrect.

The Text
Talmud Ketuvot 11b (The citation mentioned is evidently in error. Talmud Yevamot 11b has no relevant passage)

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/images/three.gif

Rav Yehudah said in the name of Rav: A male child who has relations with a female adult causes her to be like one who was injured with a stick... Rava said: This is what was meant - an adult male who has relations with a female child has not done anything because less than this [three years old] is like sticking a finger into an eyeball.

While those unused to these Talmudic discussions might be taken aback by the use of euphemisms, the discussion here relates to the dowry for virgins and non-virgins. It has nothing to do with what acts are allowed, encouraged, forbidden, or discouraged. It is, indeed, ironic that this passage has been manipulated from its original context of a financial discussion into one of a religious discussion. While there are numerous talmudic passages of a religious nature, this one discusses dowries and not forbidden and permitted relations!

The Talmud relates that a virgin is entitled a higher dowry. While the tell-tale sign of virginity is the release of blood due to the breaking of the hymen on the wedding night, there are occasions when the hymen has already been broken such as when the woman suffered an injury. The Talmud here quotes Rav Yehuda in the name of Rav that a sexual act with a male minor is not considered to be a loss of virginity because one of the participants is not fully active. While the female's hymen may have been broken, she has not engaged in what can be classified as a sexual act (although it is certainly child abuse).

The Talmud continues and quotes Rava as saying that a sexual act between a male adult and a female under the age of three is also not considered a loss of virginity (although it is child abuse). Since the girl is too young for her hymen to be broken, she is still considered a virgin.

Nowhere is the Talmud permitting such behavior. Sex outside of a marriage is strictly forbidden (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Ishut 1:4, Hilchot Na'arah Betulah 2:17; Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 26:1, 177:5) as is this obvious case of child abuse. The Talmud is only discussing ex post facto what would happen if such a case arose.

That non-marital sexual relations is prohibited is stated explicitly by Maimonides in the following passage from his ground-breaking legal code Mishneh Torah:

Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Ishut 1:4

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/images/three2.gif

Whoever has licentious relations with a woman without marriage bonds is lashed by biblical mandate.

The claim that the Talmud, or normative Judaism, permits sexual relations with a minor is almost entirely incorrect. The slight truth in it is that, in certain societies in history, people were sometimes married as young as ten. While this was most recently done in Czarist Russia in order to avoid being drafted into the Czar's army (which was made especially difficult for Jews), it is not currently done. However, even in that case, marriage is required before having sexual relations. Judaism as a religion prohibits sexual relations, indeed even minor touching such as holding hands, outside of marriage.

It is certainly true that there are individual Jews who do not follow the teaching of the Talmud. That is their personal choice, just like many Catholics choose to use birth control and have premarital relations despite their religion's teaching against it. This does not mean that Catholicism permits premarital relations and it does not mean that Judaism (and the Talmud) does either. The personal choices of people whether to follow completely their religion does not reflect on what their religion teaches. Similarly, the fact that certain Muslims drink alcohol and frequent prostitutes does not mean that their religion permits it. It means that these individuals choose to defy their religion.

We leave it to others to deduce why some people would make baseless accusations against the Talmud and, by implication, Judaism and Jews. http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/three.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
‘liberty’ belle
Condones beastiality and says that it is not sexual relations outside of marriage, which constitutes adultry. Adam performed beastiality before he was given Eve and that Eve's sin was that she had sexual relations with Satan.
Add another lie to the long list:
CLAIM (43)

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.

RESPONSE (1)

This is a famous misinterpretation of the passage, as the word "Daas" is interpreted sometimes as intercourse but it really means "understanding". So the real explanation is that he came to understand their spiritual existence and thus he called them proper names.
E.S./Edited David S. Maddison (maddison@connexus.net.au)

RESPONSE (2)

This passage of the Talmud describes various teachings in the name of Rabbi Elazar on the importance of marriage and the great merit of having a good wife. Rabbi Elazar shows how these ideas are contained in the biblical text (Gen. 3:20-23). Verse 23 reads "This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh" and Rabbi Elazar states that since the verse teaches us that 'this time' Adam found a mate, there is an implication that there were previous times when he did not find a mate, and he states that Adam "came on" to all the animals but his "mind was not satisfied" until he "came on" Eve. In Hebrew the term "came on" is often used to describe intercourse and this is the simplistic literal translation of this passage.
This passage is a classical example of agadic literature and must be understood metaphorically (as the commentators point out). One commentator (Anaf Yosef) suggests that this agada teaches the importance of marriage. He explains that Adam reflected that the purpose of animal mating is primarily for the propagation of the animal species. Adam's "mind was not satisfied" with this concept of mating because, as the commentator explains, "... the mating of a man is different [from that of animals], for a man who lives with a woman not only benefits the species [by reproduction] but also benefits his own body and soul ..." in accordance with the Talmudic teaching that a man who lives without a wife lives without Torah and without the closeness of the Divine Presence. Adam was satisfied only when he found a mate with whom he could have a relationship that transcended an animal relationship.

Michael Gruda (mgruda@netvision.net.il)
http://www.oocities.org/athens/Cyprus/8815/exp01b.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
‘liberty’ belle
There is much more to the Talmud than what I am posting here (read about Kol Nidre and how they can make an oath with a non-jew but can break that oath and lie to them to get what they want), but here is a link http://www.talmudunmasked.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that can get you started to start deciphering the Talmud. You can read the Talmud online, but its very difficult because the Talmud is veiled in hidden words and meanings to keep the Gentiles from knowing what they think or believe.

So, when anyone points to the Quran as the Evil doctrine, I agree with them, but also have to add that the Talmud is just as evil. (yes, they do call for the elimation of Christians)
It is Anti-Semitism that is evil ‘liberty’ bell. Your posts and websites remind me of the anti-Mormon crap I used to read. Makes me want to take a shower afterward because of the filth and lies. The darkness is palpable in them and they’re devoid of the Holy Ghost.

Thomas
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4622

Re: Fanatical Islam

Post by Thomas »

Blame should be assigned where it belongs. There is plenty enough to go around. By no means are America's external enimies good or righteous, however that does'nt mean we should cheer on the Gaditions in our own country as they destroy our constitution. I agree we are punished by our own actions. By disobeying God's commandments we lose his protection.One of his commandments is to not engage in premptive or agressive wars. We find the prime example of this in the Book of Mormon when the Nephites disobey this commandment and lose God's protection. As a result they are destroyed. Americia's leaders have lied about evidence in order to attack Iraq. Wheter we believe they were a threat or not, we have been commanded to aviod war. That does not mean we can't defend ourselves,but how can we expect any different result than the Nephites received. I for one do not condone our leaders actions. I am extremely unhappy about the police state being established in this country. That does not make me unpatriotic.I love my country as much as anyone but I will not condone unrighteous behavior from our leaders.

We have very little control over what leaders of other countries do however we do have some influence on our own leaders and as Pres Benson has said, we will be judged according to how we respond to what they do. If we are complancent or cheer on their unrighteous behavior, we put our enternal salvation in jeoprdy.I am much more concerned with what our country and our leaders are doing. I have no responsibility for what foreign leaders do.They can prepare for war and threaten all they want but God has commanded us to restrain ourselves. You can call this blame Americia first, but Americia is where my responsibilty lies.

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Still Learning
captain of 100
Posts: 334

Re: Fanatical Islam

Post by Still Learning »

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I find the differences in perception of who is to blame (or blame first) very interesting. Most of us are from the USA and I think we all have a deep love and devotion to our country. I see OMD and where he is coming from...at least I think I do. My parents are right in line with your thinking. And I don't think they are wrong. I am more of a blame evil American government (and sinful Americans) side of the road, but I don't give anyone else a pass. I fall into this category because I think fewer people see it and are more likely to be deceived by your 5 pm world news report about evil Islam. However, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to stand and give my life for the liberties that I have enjoyed my whole life so that my children can have the same. Sometimes when I take a step back to look at my opinions and stance on things I question myself "am I helping satan to divide America?" I don't want for a moment to do anything that is harmful to this great nation. For me it was hard to wake up to the fact that America's government, just like most, has many evil secrets and goals. And by government, I mean corrupt leaders. The saddest part isn't that we have an evil government, but that we the people have created this evil government. If we as a whole were a righteous people, then we wouldn't allow these evil men to gain control. We would more easily sniff them out and not accept them as our leaders. Many have posted on other threads that the key to success as a nation is righteousness. It isn't right for us to be warmongers and hate all Islamic people (and I don't think OMD feels that way). But the threat is real from them. However, the threat is real from within too. I would be willing to bet that we are all a lot closer in our views than we think. My whole life I always felt that America was the greatest nation on earth. It is. And it became that way due to a good cause - men and women wanting the freedom to live and worship as they see fit. Men wanted truth. Men wanted freedom. We had that and have squandered it little by little through the decades partially due to our prosperity - we have become a prideful nation. Now we can see this nation is on the brink of disaster - we have evil flowing from within. We have evil coming at us from without. Everywhere you look you can see the footprints of the devil. He has consumed mens hearts and desires. You could take away all the exterior factors - Iran, N Korea, China, etc. and we would still be having problems here at home. Until we become a righteous people, we will continue to deal with this sort of evil. I don't think SM&P blames anyone first. He just wants people that don't see the evil in our own government to wake up and see it - and fix it. Get rid of them. OMD loves America and what it stands for - he sees the evil from without and knows it is evil. We are all looking at the same pie, just different slices. Bottom line is we can feel the walls closing in on us and satan is behind the walls. It is hard for us to see all this happening and feel that we have no control over it. I'm not trying to interpret exactly how you all feel or speak for you, but I think you are more like-minded than you think. Evil is evil and certain parts of it are more visible to different people. Neither is perfect in their perception. But we see and feel it. We recognize it and want others to know about it. When others don't see it our way it is frustrating. I didn't go back and read all of your posts to know exactly all your differences, so forgive me if I have erred. For me it brings a great amount of sadness to my being to see how great we have been blessed and to see all of it slipping away. I feel my own guilt for cruising through life fulfilling my own lustful desires for the things that I can't take with me. Luckily for me I am still young and can hopefully teach my children differently. That's where it has to begin. In our homes. We have to teach the truths about the establishment and history of our nation and more importantly our God. The only hope I see this country having for survival begins and ends there. Unfortunately I think we (nation) will not choose that path on our own, but will be more compelled to do so based on our having to rely more on God and less on worldly things that will be taken away for our happiness. Until we all do that, we will not find happiness and we will not prosper. Our enemies will have no power over us (including evil governments) if we but start living worthy to be guided by the spirit of God. Until then, chaos will reign and our liahona will be spinning in all different directions, not knowing which way to go.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Posts: 6047
Location: Driven

Re: Fanatical Islam

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

focusing only on the needs of them and their loved ones to the exclusion of all else is why things can get worse and worse in the world around them.
I'll tell you why I don't think that is true. Because our duty to our family mandates their protection and freedom, consequently getting involved to a degree is absolutely necessary to being a good provider/protector. My point wasn't to say that we don't take care of those things but that we do so in a way that reflects those priorities.

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