Fanatical Islam

[ChelC]

I'm curious to know the views of people here since other recent threads show quite spectrum of opinions.

Do you believe that this exists in any large and organized fashion?

Do you believe it is a threat to us? Other nations?

Is there any circumstance in which you would support war? Only on our soil? On foreign ground but only if attacked first? On foreign soil if the threat is imminent?

Do you believe it is more dangerous to have a warmonger or a head in the sand variety president?

[ChelC]

I'll offer my opinion. I do believe fanatical Islam exists in a somewhat organized fashion. I believe that within their immediate areas their threat is palpable, but I don't believe the threat is great for us yet. For Israel I believe the threat is great simply because of their size and location. It wouldn't take much, really to cripple Israel.

I believe the nature of the pockets of organization make attacks difficult to prevent, which makes questions of war confusing. The movement is not organized by country though I believe it has infiltrated the governments of many. I desire peace, even isolationism to a point, but I don't believe that we should never ever strike abroad or first. What constitutes the first strike is arguable anyhow. Some would say that an intruder in my home made a first strike just by entering and I'd have the right to defend myself. I don't believe in questions of personal defense that I must wait to be physically attacked to defend myself from a serious threat. I don't believe war is different in that regard.

I think the vast majority of muslim people are peaceful people and have no ill feelings toward us. Like every religion, they believe theirs is correct. Many people take their beliefs out of context and stretch them to mean things which I don't believe they mean.

That's my perspective. My niece has a Turkish boyfriend who I'm relatively certain isn't hoping for our destruction, but I can ask him at the Christmas party.

[Thomas]

I belieive in the rules of engagement laid out in D&C 98:

Verse 33: And again, this is the "law"that I gave unto mine ancients, that they should not go out into battle against any nation, kindred, tongue or people, save I, the Lord,commanded them.

34: And if any nation, tongue or people should proclaim war against them, they should first lift an standard of peace unto that people, nation or tongue.

35:And if that people did not accept the offering of peace, neither the second nor the third time,they should bring these testimonies before the Lord;

36:Then I, the Lord, would give unto them a commandment, and justify them going out to battle against that nation, tongue or people.

37: And I the Lord would fight their their battles, and their children's battles, and their children's children's until they had avenged themselves on all their enimes, to the third and fourth generation.

I believe their is a radical Isalm organization bent on destroying us, however I don't think they are our greatest threat to saftey. I Believe they are controlled by others who also seek our destruction. There is too much scripture and warning from prophets to ingnore on this issue. Satan works in the ways of deception and darkness. He uses feints whithin feints to draw our attention, then slips in the knife from an unexpected place. We must rely on the Lord for Protection.

[Steve Clark]

I belieive in the rules of engagement laid out in D&C 98:

Verse 33: And again, this is the "law"that I gave unto mine ancients, that they should not go out into battle against any nation, kindred, tongue or people, save I, the Lord,commanded them.

34: And if any nation, tongue or people should proclaim war against them, they should first lift an standard of peace unto that people, nation or tongue.

35:And if that people did not accept the offering of peace, neither the second nor the third time,they should bring these testimonies before the Lord;

36:Then I, the Lord, would give unto them a commandment, and justify them going out to battle against that nation, tongue or people.

37: And I the Lord would fight their their battles, and their children's battles, and their children's children's until they had avenged themselves on all their enimies, to the third and fourth generation.

I believe their is a radical Isalm organization bent on destroying us, however I don't think they are our greatest threat to saftey. I Believe they are controlled by others who also seek our destruction. There is too much scripture and warning from prophets to ingnore on this issue. Satan works in the ways of deception and darkness. He uses feints whithin feints to draw our attention, then slips in the knife from an unexpected place. We must rely on the Lord for Protection.

^ This.

Also, I don't accept the notion that we only have war-mongerer or head-in-the-sand options. I believe RP has a pretty good understanding of the unwanted consequences we have brought on ourselves by meddling in the middle east. Not wanting to preemptively kill thousands of people isn't a bad quality.

These words of Pres. Kimball cannot be quoted enough!

We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel -- ships, planes, missiles, fortifications -- and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become antienemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan's counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior's teaching:

"Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:44-45).

We forget that if we are righteous the Lord will either not suffer our enemies to come upon us -- and this is the special promise to the inhabitants of the land of the Americas (see 2 Nephi 1:7) -- or he will fight our battles for us (Exodus 14:14; D&C 98:37, to name only two references of many). This he is able to do, for as he said at the time of his betrayal, "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?" (Matthew 26:53). We can imagine what fearsome soldiers they would be. King Jehoshaphat and his people were delivered by such a troop (see 2 Chronicles 20), and when Elish's life was threatened, he comforted his servant by saying, "Fear not; for they that be with us are more than they that be with them" (2 Kings 6:16). The Lord then opened the eyes of the servant, "And he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha" (vs 17).

What are we to fear when the Lord is with us? Can we not take the Lord at his word and exercise a particle of faith in him? Our assignment is affirmative: to forsake the things of the world as ends in themselves; to leave off idolatry and press forward in faith; to carry the gospel to our enemies, that they might no longer be our enemies.

We must leave off the worship of modern-day idols and a reliance on the "arm of flesh," for the Lord has said to all the world in our day, "I will not spare any that remain in Babylon" (D&C 64:24).

[Tribunal]

I believe what many call "fanatical Islam", by American-standards, is actually 'mainstream Islam' throughout the Muslim world.

I believe what many in the Muslim world call 'radical Islam', we in the United States would call Americanized Muslims.

Many Muslims in the United States have joined the melting pot of America much to the changrin of the Muslim world.

[ChelC]

That reminds me that I forgot to answer my last question. I believe it is much more dangerous to have a warmonger President.

FWIW- I like Ron Paul, but he has warts too. I do have some differences of opinion. I'm not thrilled with any of the candidates for the GOP.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I believe that fanatical Islam is Islam too poor or politically prohibited from living in the U.S.. Once they get here they are good muslims. They're just mad about missing the party thrown by the Saudi royal family here every weekend.

Seriously though I think that the threat of fanatical Islam is equal and of no greater threat than "militias" in the U.S. (which are on our soil).

I believe that the Palestinians have a just cause in fighting Israel and that Israel has a just cause in fighting against them. The jews were forced on them and took over, but the world had turned it's back on them (especially the U.S. with the immigration acts of '21 & '24, which if not done, there would probably be like 3 jews in Jerusalem today as most were heading here before they were cut off and even put in quarantine camps). Israel does mean things to palestinians routinely and they try to get even every chance they can though their impotence is obvious as is the whole Arab worlds as illistrated by the history of Jewish/Arab conflict.

When would I fight them? When they threaten my homeland and then by way of removing the threat only (not by way of genocide nor cultur-cide).

[Fiannan]

Interesting video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 5GHHbIUxZY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That being said the greatest danger to the world today are those who want to erase religion and replace it with corporate materialism. These elite are as great a threat to Islam as to Christianity. The sad part is, for the most part Christianity is a castrated religion in regards to its potential to affect positive change on the world today. The average Christian today would be judged by the average Christian of 100 years ago as a secular humanist.
Many LDS are not far from that same description.

[Still Learning]

I'm curious to know the views of people here since other recent threads show quite spectrum of opinions.

Do you believe that this exists in any large and organized fashion? Yes

Do you believe it is a threat to us? Other nations? Yes. Yes.

Is there any circumstance in which you would support war? Yes, but I believe Americans are decieved on the type of threat fanatical Islam is to us. Only on our soil? On foreign ground but only if attacked first? On foreign soil if the threat is imminent? Yes. I don't think we should wait until the first nuke goes off to retaliate. But I believe our current wars are due to corrupt US government trying to scare us into support for their own personal gain (oil, drugs). With regard to the type of threat Fanatical Islam is, I view it more of a threat to our society the same way communism is. No one is going to come in and force communism or Sharia Law upon America. It will be done gradually. Just as satan carefully leads men to hell, so will communsim and fanatical islam carefully lead us away from the constitution. It comes from within.

Do you believe it is more dangerous to have a warmonger or a head in the sand variety president?

That's a tie. I don't know if you are insinuating that RP has his head in the sand. I don't think he does. If he becomes president, he will also be given information that will force him to adjust his position. He will have to make the decision whether or not the information he receives is accurate (sources?). RP will have a difficult presidency if he does win simply based on all the corruption in the CIA, MIC, etc.

[Book of Ruth]

I’m at a loss here. Islam is Satan’s counterfeit religion. Let me make my points
1. They do not believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God
2. They do believe that Jesus Christ will be subservient to the Mahdi and proclaim the Mahdi as the supreme religious leader.
3. Will they fight until the absolute death with torture and terror for the Mahdi? YES
4. Do they believe Jesus Christ was crucified? NO….. hence the HUGE significance in His return and showing the nail marks and the scar on His side.
5. Do they believe that the Mahdi is upon the earth now? Many do.
6. Can they really pull this man out and set him up currently as the Mahdi? I hope not.
7. Islam controls beliefs through FORCE. There is no free agency, you follow or you are shunned or you and your family die.
8. Women are oppressed and are not treated as an equal. Exactly contrary to Eve being a help meet to Adam
9. Islam belief is that it will spread over the entire world, and everyone will be converted to Islam and worship the Mahdi or die. Direct contradiction to the Lords way of anyone who does not kill their brother will be welcomed regardless of religious beliefs.
10. They believe that Israel is the little satan and that America is the great satan.

The elitest banksters/globalist are evil, but they are Satan’s pauns. There are not that many of them, and they though they are a threat, and pull many strings, they will end up in the pit they themselves make. 1 Nephi 14:3

There are 1.3 billion muslims. I do not think that we need to bomb them, I think that we need to covert them. If we can convince them of the true Savior of the world, that is huge. There are many many good yet misguided muslims because of the traditions of Islamic believes. If we could just talk to them as we have with many that have come here, we get closer and close to humanity. Missions not missiles. Bad idea to do first strike, that will unite Islam against Israel and the U.S. and that is what they want.

[Oldemandalton]

ChelC:
I believe that fanatical Islam is a threat to ours and many nations, just ask the tens of thousands who have had their loved ones maimed and killed all around the world.

Are they organized? Yes but loosely as you suggest, ChelC. Even so they have common goals and have worked together at times to reach them. Their goal is to spread Islam and Sharia to the Middle East by way of a Caliphate then to the rest of the world. Radical Muslims living here in the US have stated that is their goal for America. Why do we blow off their beliefs and desires when they are willing to die for them?

Short term danger to the US is more terrorist attacks. We have had two successful major attacks here in the US and several small ‘lone wolf’ over the last 10 years or so. Why not any more large scale body counts? They are being held back for a reason. Are they waiting for the ‘perfect storm’ conditions when we have been knocked to our knees during a Greater Depression or World War or both? Why not wait for the best opportunity for one good punch to take us out or cause chaos. This way they can get into position and to lull the sheeple of America to sleep with the “America is safe from terrorists” lullaby or this one ”the war on terror is a myth created by the _____________conspiracy”.

I believe in the Thomas Jeffersonian form of foreign policy, a la Barbary War. Attack us, take our ships, kidnap or kill our people; we send in the Marines, rid the area of the vermin, and leave. After giving the vermin a chance to redeem themselves first and getting authorization from Congress of course. We warn the host of the parasites that we WILL be coming and give them a chance to see to their own problem first.

If you allow a bully through appeasement to believe that they can get away with terrorism then that will just embolden them to increase their attacks on the meek and weak. Peace comes through strength. That also behooves us not to be the bully ourselves!

Warmonger or a ‘head in the sand’ presidents can both just as dangerous.

1930-40s Europe could have stood up to Hitler and faced him down but didn’t. They tried appeasement and kept giving him their ‘lunch money’; Austria, Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia, Memelland, and then Poland. Didn’t work did it? So let’s talk nice to Ahmadinejad and he’ll stop funding terror around the world and not use his nukes to destroy Israel. 8-|

A ‘warmonger’ can get us into war too, obviously.

I would rather have someone who believed in a strong defense and who was not intimidated by the bullies around the world but still reluctant to use our military only as a last resort. Clandestine activities are useful just as the carrot and stick of trade can be.

Ron Paul is naïve, ‘head in the sand’.
Newt Gingritch would be the ‘warmonger’.

Would not vote for either in the Caucus here. Would vote for Paul as the Rep. nominee but not third party unless Newt won then I’d have to fast and pray A LOT.


OMD

[Oldemandalton]

SwissMrs&Pichfire:
Fanatical Islam is way more dangerous than our militias unless you’re talking about the white supremacists types. Then I’d say they were just as dangerous as the ‘lone wolf’ variety of Muslim Extremists. The more organized Jihadists have access to more funding, advanced weapons, and numbers than our 'extremist' militias do.

The ‘Palestinians’ are a group of people created by Israel’s enemies. Shocking but true.

There is no “Palestine” tribe, language or culture. They were Arabs of the Ottoman Empire that lived in the Holy Land at the time. There were not too many Jews there because the Romans had either killed, enslaved or chased off their people. After the Muslims conquered the land Jews were not allowed to return in mass, but only in dribs and drabs. After Elder Hyde’s dedication of the Holy Land for the return of the Jews then Zionism increased and the Jews began to return to Jerusalem and its environs in earnest.

The Jews prior to the Palestinian Mandate and the creation of the nation of Israel bought the land, farms, and homes from the Arabs that lived there. That is the land they settled and it was how the boarders were determined for the TWO nations that Brittan wanted to create.

England partitioned the land in order to create these two nations, Israel governed by Jews, and Palestine governed by Arabs. Israel accepted Muslims in their new nation, the Arabs rejected the whole plan and wanted BOTH territories for themselves. All of the surrounding Arab countries went to war to push the Jews into the sea. Have been trying to do so ever since. There is not one “Palestinian” group which will accede to the existence of a Jewish nation in the Holy Land. Their goal is one state ruled by Sharia and Islamic rulers. How do you negotiate with that SwissMrs&Pichfire?

The Jews at the time of their creation and winning the first Arab-Israeli War against the armies of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq accepted all of the Jewish refugees who were kicked out of those countries. Why didn’t the other Arab countries take in their brothers as the Jews did? Why keep them in camps where they could not get jobs, IDs, or homes but live at the mercy of hand outs? They were fellow Arabs and Muslims why not absorb them as the Jews did? To create a need to retake the land and push the Jews into the sea.

BTW there are Muslims happily living in Israel who vote in Israeli elections, have more freedoms there, and DO NOT want the PLO nor Hamas governing them.


OMD

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I have to say that line of thinking doesn't sit well with me. Palestine did not sit vacant (how many years were they gone?) waiting to have it's name changed back and the Jews to return. Seriously who built the Dome of the Rock and when? There have always been people there, un-jewish people. But not enough and not with a real name, I know. Well except the Ottoman's under whose rule thus was said:

The rule of Suleiman and the subsequent Ottoman Sultans brought an age of "religious peace"; Jew, Christian and Muslim enjoyed the freedom of religion the Ottomans granted them and it was possible to find a synagogue, a church and a mosque in the same street.

So you must want the American Indians to control the U.S. and Canada again right? I mean they were here first and that's your logic. Our colonies were only scattered at Plymouth and Roanoke and the Caribbean before the settling caused warfare right? And heck they sure aren't Indians, talk about no name.

I’m at a loss here. Judaism is Satan’s counterfeit religion. Let me make my points
1. They do not believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God
2. They do believe that Jesus Christ will be subservient to their deliverer and proclaim the deliverer as the supreme religious leader.
3. Will they fight until the absolute death with torture and terror for their deliverer? YES
4. Do they believe Jesus Christ was crucified by them? NO….. hence the HUGE significance in His return and showing the nail marks and the scar on His side.
5. Do they believe that the deliverer is upon the earth now? Many probably do.
6. Can they really pull this man out and set him up currently as the deliverer? I hope not.
7. Judaism controls beliefs through FORCE. There is no free agency, you follow or you are shunned or you and your family die.
8. Women are oppressed and are not treated as an equal. Exactly contrary to Eve being a help meet to Adam
9. Judaism believes that it will spread over the entire world, and everyone will be converted to Judaism and worship their old school god or die. Direct contradiction to the Lords way of anyone who does not kill their brother will be welcomed regardless of religious beliefs.
10. They believe that everyone not Jewish isn't as good as someone who is. They have nuclear weapons and have recently stated they will not rest until their enemies are disarmed!
11. They build walls like the Berlin wall, a communist method of forceful security.
12. They answer to no one but their old testament god

Let's be a little objective shall we?

[Oldemandalton]

SwissMrs&Pitchfire;
I have to say that line of thinking doesn't sit well with me. Palestine did not sit vacant (how many years were they gone?) waiting to have it's name changed back and the Jews to return. Seriously who built the Dome of the Rock and when?

Never said it sat empty.

SwissMrs&Pitchfire;There have always been people there, un-jewish people.

Who are “un-jewish people”? Please explain.

SwissMrs&Pitchfire; But not enough and not with a real name, I know. Well except the Ottoman's under whose rule thus was said:

The rule of Suleiman and the subsequent Ottoman Sultans brought an age of "religious peace"; Jew, Christian and Muslim enjoyed the freedom of religion the Ottomans granted them and it was possible to find a synagogue, a church and a mosque in the same street.

Religious ‘peace and freedom’ yes but both Jews and Christians were discriminated against under Islamic rule and law:

Religious association typically determined status in the predominantly Muslim Ottoman Empire. According to Moshe Ma’oz, Christians and Jews were seen as “inferior subjects or as illegitimate denominations.”[1] As a result, they were often discriminated against by the state entity…. Their failure to do so (acceptance of the Prophet Mohamed) may have caused Muslim rulers to view them in a substandard capacity. As such, they were required to pay a special poll tax, a jiyzya.[7] While they were allowed to hold certain senior-level positions, such as financial advisers or physicians, they were always required to hold only those positions subordinate to their Muslim counterparts. They were even sometimes subjected to restrictions in dress, or were harassed by certain officials and neighbors. This shows that despite the granting of dhimma to the Christians and Jews, unofficial acts of prejudice were sometimes condoned.[8] http://www.studentpulse.com/articles/24 ... man-empire" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SwissMrs&Pitchfire;So you must want the American Indians to control the U.S. and Canada again right? I mean they were here first and that's your logic.
Our colonies were only scattered at Plymouth and Roanoke and the Caribbean before the settling caused warfare right? And heck they sure aren't Indians, talk about no name.

No, but it was a travesty what we did to them. We should have honoured our treaties with them.

An Apostle of the Lord dedicated the Holy Land for the return of the Jews. You need to argue your point with God not me, SwissMrs&Pitchfire.


SwissMrs&Pitchfire;I’m at a loss here. Judaism is Satan’s counterfeit religion. Let me make my points.

How can it be a counterfeit religion when Jehovah gave it to Moses? They are in apostasy not a counterfeit. Islam is closer to Satan’s counterfeit than the Jews. Not saying Islam IS but I will use them as an example.

1. They do not believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God

The Jews believe in the Old Testament, in Jehovah, and the coming Messiah. Islam believes the when the Mahdi returns Christ will bow down to him and any Christian or Jew who does not worship the Mahdi will be killed.

2. They do believe that Jesus Christ will be subservient to their deliverer and proclaim the deliverer as the supreme religious leader.

Practicing Jews believe that Jesus was a false messiah, died and not resurrected. So I guess you can say they believe that when their true messiah comes ALL will bow down to him. It will be a shock when they find out they are one in the same. Same goes for Islam BTW except that those who don’t bow down will be killed.

3. Will they fight until the absolute death with torture and terror for their deliverer? YES

Not sure what you mean here. They do believe in the Messiah and his coming just as we do the 2nd coming of Christ. I would be willing to give my life inorder to not deny him, wouldn’t you?
On the other hand Muslim extremists are willing to die as martyrs while killing innocent men, women, and children. They even strap suicide vests on children and the mentally handicapped so they can go straight to heaven too. X(

4. Do they believe Jesus Christ was crucified by them? NO….. hence the HUGE significance in His return and showing the nail marks and the scar on His side.

Very true. It will be a shock. For Muslems even more so because most of those in Gog’s army will be Muslim. When Christ returns to SAVE the Jews, 4/5ths of their army will be destroyed. I am sure the 1/5th remaining will either bow down with the Jews or flee in terror.

5. Do they believe that the deliverer is upon the earth now? Many probably do.

Which deliverer? :-\

6. Can they really pull this man out and set him up currently as the deliverer? I hope not.

???? :-\ :-\

7. Judaism controls beliefs through FORCE. There is no free agency, you follow or you are shunned or you and your family die.

What in the world are you talking about SwissMrs&Pitchfire. No Jew is threatened with death if they apostatize as you find in Sharia Law. I think you have your religions mixed up. Apostates from Islam are stoned not Jews!

8. Women are oppressed and are not treated as an equal. Exactly contrary to Eve being a help meet to Adam

Amazing!
Women in Isarel vote, drive cars, leave their house unaccompanied by a male family member, go to school, work in any professional field while the opposite is true under Sharia Law. WOW, SwissMrs&Pitchfire, are you sure you got your facts right?

9. Judaism believes that it will spread over the entire world, and everyone will be converted to Judaism and worship their old school god or die. Direct contradiction to the Lords way of anyone who does not kill their brother will be welcomed regardless of religious beliefs.

Again you are describing Islam to a tea and NOT Judaism! Have any proof?

10. They believe that everyone not Jewish isn't as good as someone who is. They have nuclear weapons and have recently stated they will not rest until their enemies are disarmed!

Israel has never threatened another country with annihilation as Iran has. Every Arab country around Israel has attacked it repeatedly for over 60 years. Which country did Israel attack unprovoked?

11. They build walls like the Berlin wall, a communist method of forceful security.

Communists built walls to keep people IN. Israel built walls to keep suicide bombers OUT. It has worked too. Every time they relaxed the boarders suicide killers come in to kill men women and children. Last year two slipped past the wall and cut the throats of a man and wife and their two little kids one a toddler. So yes they did build a wall.

12. They answer to no one but their old testament god

And I answer to no one but MY scriptural God. How 'bout you, SwissMrs&Pitchfire?

Let's be a little objective shall we? 8-| =)) =)) =))

Ye shall we.


OMD

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Your post proves my point. The fact that you would engage to defend Israel as only apostate is telling. I didn't dedicate much time to making a case, as that wasn't my point to vilify Israel but point out the double standard (which has got to be obvious to anyone half awake) so I just left some points as they were.

The fact is that the number of Islamist militants with enough means and mobility to achieve any effect is miniscule and their targets limited to high value targets that are very unlike main street America.

If they cannot even defeat Israel why exactly should we worry? and to make my points more valid apparently I must add =)) ) #-o

[Book of Ruth]

Dear SwissMiss:

WHAT???!!!!!!!!

[Oldemandalton]

Media Watch Gaza Terrorist React to Video of Her Failed Suicide Bombing Attempt to Kill Israelis

Posted on December 20, 2011 at 9:12pm by Tiffany Gabbay



In a report that, according to Fox News’ Leland Vittert, “shatters the illusion that those who are driven by hate can have their minds changed,” one would-be suicide bomber who failed in her past attempt to kill Israelis proudly declares that she would do it all over again (next time she hopes successfully) just to “taste and smell paradise.”

The interview offers viewers a look into the hate-filled mind of a woman who was incarcerated after attempting to detonate a bomb that had been strapped to her body in order to kill as many innocent Israelis as she possibly could.

The terrorist was released from jail as part of a prisoner exchange deal and is now reportedly at home in Gaza.

Mediaite adds:

The report included footage of the would-be suicide bomber at the very moment her detonator failed outside of a hospital. After shedding her jacket, the woman can be seen crying and clutching at her neck and chest.

She was released from jail as part of a prisoner exchange deal, and is now home in Gaza.

After watching video of her failed attempt, the woman told Vittert that she is proud of her actions and hopes to once again “taste and smell paradise.” She maintains that she is still intent on blowing herself up in order to kill Israelis, and urges other young women to do the same.

Vittert adds that “staring death in the face” only seems to harden those bent on murder even more.



Below is a disturbing look into the heart and mind of an aspiring suicide bomber:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1337811784001/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/watch-g ... -israelis/

[ChelC]

It's hard to wade through the propaganda. On this site, we can't agree on 9/11 so it seems pointless to bring that threat up. If it was in fact brought on by murderous infidel hating muslim extremists, then does that qualify as a first attack on our soil? If so, how do you fight an enemy without borders? It seems like the only way possible is in pockets.

I believe there are people who would say they have been commanded to take up arms. I've heard several members of the military report that the spirit directed them to choose as they did. I know many of you would say they are deceived.

Do you think that in ancient scriptural accounts that the majority of the people knew without a doubt of the rightness of their cause? I'm willing to be most had mixed feelings on the matter. It was the mighty ones with extraordinary faith who were certain, and I'm willing to bet that most of us aren't at that level of faith.

I'm willing to entertain both sides of the argument. From my perspective, both sides have cause to feel anger and resentment. I think it's foolish though to dismiss real threats from those who have attacked and vow to do so again. How can Israeli's possibly compromise with the threats they are under? War has been thrust upon them already, IMO.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

The modern state of Israel was forged in the fire. The question isn't about whether to melt down their firearms and forge plowshares, it is about policies that either enhance their security and promote peaceful resolution or provoke war and hatred.

That's the problem debating here, most people look at it as a black and white God's chosen people vs. anti-God jihadists, when in reality the situation isn't like that and that part isn't even worth debating anyways. The debate stems around accountability and action. The U.S. has at it's origin the divine mandate of God and yet the debate isn't about whether we are children of hell or not, it's about policy because we are able to discuss that to a reasonable level here. That's how it should be with the conflict in Israel as well, but it isn't, it always descends into yet another evil jihadist thread.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I've heard several members of the military report that the spirit directed them to choose as they did. I know many of you would say they are deceived.

Do you think that in ancient scriptural accounts that the majority of the people knew without a doubt of the rightness of their cause? I'm willing to be most had mixed feelings on the matter. It was the mighty ones with extraordinary faith who were certain, and I'm willing to bet that most of us aren't at that level of faith.

First off, the Spirit telling somebody to join the military is much different than the Spirit telling somebody the wars are just.


Secondly a well respected member of our Branch recently went to the temple and communed with God about having another kid (their 5th in 9 years) and was told that it would be a boy and his name was to be *****. Well of course they had a girl... Brigham Young said that the Spirit was never received 100%. We all interpret the Spirit and often wrongly. Swiss and I often share are promptings and very frequently the added insight changed the message that we thought we were hearing.

For example when we were living out on our land Swiss received the prompting that we would be living out on our land through the winter. When we decided to move into town for the winter, she was confused. Upon reflection she realized that she had assumed that it meant THAT winter when in reality it was a reassurance for the future and definitely not that winter.

We also knew that we were done having kids with our third (we had not and still have not used artificial birth control). We both discussed the impressions we had received and knew that we were done for that period of our life. But we also knew and articulated it as done in this period of life. Despite trying our best to have more kids for years we did not have another until our life had changed dramatically. The space of almost 5 years was sufficient to leave us questioning whether that meant mortality or a re-ordering as we first assumed. Now our youngest ex-utero is 3 this summer with another to be born this spring. (Heavenly Father has spaced our kids better than we could have ever done if we hadn't left it entirely in His hands, 11,9,7,2.5, almost 3rd trimester).

God saw the end from the beginning and planned accordingly hence the plan He has for each of us is the best one for our progression. That does not in any way presume a rosy path down celestial garden paths. When He sent Shadrach, Meshach, And Abednego into the fiery furnace He was not tacitly endorsing the furnace nor it's operators.

So, no I don't doubt the promptings, but rather acknowledge that likely it was received in imperfection and cannot be seen as endorsement as anything more than a specific path for a specific persons progression.

[ChelC]

I agree completely and that's why I am not admantly for or adamantly against something I've not been given sufficient knowledge to understand. I can only form opinions based on what I have before me.

[InfoWarrior82]

Please do your research on "The Grand Chessboard" by zbigniew brzezinski. K thnx bye.

[ChelC]

So do I understand that your position infowarrior is that our entanglements in Israel are only for the purpose of preventing the rise of a "eurasian" power?

For those falling on the Palestinian side of the argument. What would you have the Jews do? What is your idea of a solution for the Israeli's?

From my point of view they have no reason to trust that Palestinians want peace, so to make concessions seems fruitless.

[InfoWarrior82]

So do I understand that your position infowarrior is that our entanglements in Israel are only for the purpose of preventing the rise of a "eurasian" power?

If you don't have time to read the book or about this man:

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Israel could draw a line and stick with it for starters, as opposed to ever advancing and retreating settlement building. They could adopt stricter rules of engagement and punish wayward soldiers with gusto. They could respect Palestinian's freedom of movement through the wall so people can actually hold a job rather than condoning the endless harassment that leads to despair. A little would go a long way.

A good movie to watch: "For My Father"
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =122955916" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;