Warmongers!

[brianj]

That is a very different situation then bombing a different country. Who are not gods people. Who are not so righteous that they refuse to take up arms.

But if god commanded us to protect them. We would be the first to know as we have a prophet gods mouthpiece.

I do not consider myself worthy enough to judge the Yazidi, Egyptian Christians, or any other persecuted people. But, no matter how guilty some people are, I guess you and I are different in that I can't turn a blind eye on murdering men and abducting women to force them into sexual slavery.

The church has counseled us to not gamble; if not for this counsel I would bet your last line is false. I'm willing to bet that if President Monson were to say that we as a church need to send people to Iraq to protect the Yazidi the number of volunteers would not begin to approach the size of Helaman's force of young men.

[Teancum]

The entire world has issues. Would you advocate dropping bombs on EVERY nation that has an issue such as treating any of its people poorly? If so, then you must advocate dropping bombs on our own country. How is it that you cannot see that your train of thought, if taken to its utmost logical conclusion, would be to force every country to be good at the point of a gun? How is that any diferent than the devil's plan?

The problem here is that you have emotionally bought into the lies that the arm of mammon is the source of protection, or of correction of any problem. This idea is just not correct. God is the source of protection and correction. You will say sure, sure, yeah I know he is, but then go on to say that armies need to bomb and destroy for a greater cause. Why dont you believe what God has said? Its because you don't trust him to fulfill his word, or you dont trust yourself and others to be worthy to have him fulfill his word in your behalf.

[Silver]

I have a heavy heart, that we are sowing the wind and shall reap the whirlwind.

Not even as a nation, but even among the LDS people we love war. You will never hear it spoken, but actions speak louder than words.

May we repent, and cry repentance.

Do you think I love war? I don't love war but I am a strong advocate for war. There are a lot of dark forces that want to destroy the United States and all of western life, just as there are people who want to take Yazidi Christian women as sex slaves, blow up Christian churches in Muslim majority countries, or kill people in European countries for not immediately giving up their beliefs and heritage in favor of an invading culture and religion.

In the Book of Mormon people went to the Lamanites and some of them were wildly successful in converting their enemies. If you tried going to the places that grow terrorists or support terrorism and preach, if you are lucky you would find yourself in a very unpleasant prison but you are more likely to find your head and body in different locations.

I am completely unable to turn a blind eye on the suffering of others, knowing full well that my country can act to protect the innocent. The Nephites didn't turn a blind eye to Lamoni and his people because the Lamanites weren't attacking Bountiful; they went to the defense of innocent people they had the ability to protect. I believe the United States should do the same thing.

I know you're passionate in your beliefs, but most of the people who want to destroy us feel that way because we destroyed them, or tried to, first. If we never messed in the politics of all those foreign countries, they'd probably leave us alone. It's called blowback. Neither you nor our politicians may ever accept that. However, that's a reality I'm prepared to face.

Further, in spite of all your fervor, you still come down on the wrong side of President Kimball's "We are a warlike people" talk.

However, if you still want to protect innocent people, why don't you go hang out in Saudi Arabia and stop the beheadings of women who made the egregious mistake of going out without a male relative? Or go to China where women are forced to abort their children? Or why not just hang out in front of the Planned Parenthood killing fields in America and try to convince women to give up their baby for adoption instead of choosing death?

See every time you choose an offensive war, or a pre-emptive war, I know that you're not going by yourself. The US will send hundreds or thousands of young men, and sorry but your gung ho kill 'em all attitude doesn't translate down to my children. See? They're mine. Not yours. So keep your bloody hands and thoughts off of them.

[Silver]

I'm really waiting for one of the hot shot tough guy Rambo guys in America to go after the root of the problem, like Captain Moroni of old.

[brianj]

The entire world has issues. Would you advocate dropping bombs on EVERY nation that has an issue such as treating any of its people poorly? If so, then you must advocate dropping bombs on our own country. How is it that you cannot see that your train of thought, if taken to its utmost logical conclusion, would be to force every country to be good at the point of a gun? How is that any diferent than the devil's plan?

The problem here is that you have emotionally bought into the lies that the arm of mammon is the source of protection, or of correction of any problem. This idea is just not correct. God is the source of protection and correction. You will say sure, sure, yeah I know he is, but then go on to say that armies need to bomb and destroy for a greater cause. Why dont you believe what God has said? Its because you don't trust him to fulfill his word, or you dont trust yourself and others to be worthy to have him fulfill his word in your behalf.

No, I wouldn't say to drop bombs on every country that treats its people poorly. I say bomb any group of people who devote themselves to killing anybody who doesn't accept their ways. Do you remember Amlici? He and his followers decided to kill any Nephite that didn't accept Amlici's ways, namely turning from the gospel and turning from liberty.

Yes, God is the source of protection, but did He protect the saints at Haun's Mill? Did He protect Eliza Snow from a gang of criminals so she wouldn't be brutally gang raped and never be able to have children?

Yes, I believe the lie that the arm of mammon is the source of protection, and I prove this every single day by putting on a seat belt instead of placing my safety entirely in the hands of God. When I was a missionary and a pair of sisters in my district were being threatened by a neighbor I honored the request of my mission president to take myself and my companion over to their apartment to protect those faithful sisters as they packed their stuff instead of berating my mission president for not believing that Heavenly Father would protect those missionaries.

I wasn't raised LDS, and I frequently heard the statement that God helps those who help themselves. Though I haven't heard that specific statement taught in the LDS church, I have repeatedly heard the same concept taught. We don't just sit back and let God do everything for us. We proactively do what we can and ask God to take care of the rest.

How faithless I am! I plant seeds and ask God to bless my plants instead of asking Him to make plants spontaneously spring up. When I am injured I get a blessing and pray for healing but I also go to a doctor and follow his or her advice. When I hear somebody trying to open a door or window in the middle of the night I don't lay back down and trust God to protect me. I arm myself, call the police, and pray that I won't have to defend myself. And when I hear of people who are suffering I don't think, "God's problem, not mine." Instead I ask, "What can I do to help?"

[Ezra]

That is a very different situation then bombing a different country. Who are not gods people. Who are not so righteous that they refuse to take up arms.

But if god commanded us to protect them. We would be the first to know as we have a prophet gods mouthpiece.

I do not consider myself worthy enough to judge the Yazidi, Egyptian Christians, or any other persecuted people. But, no matter how guilty some people are, I guess you and I are different in that I can't turn a blind eye on murdering men and abducting women to force them into sexual slavery.

The church has counseled us to not gamble; if not for this counsel I would bet your last line is false. I'm willing to bet that if President Monson were to say that we as a church need to send people to Iraq to protect the Yazidi the number of volunteers would not begin to approach the size of Helaman's force of young men.

Would you go? Would you send your kids? Your family?

If not why are you willing to send other people?

[brianj]

I know you're passionate in your beliefs, but most of the people who want to destroy us feel that way because we destroyed them, or tried to, first. If we never messed in the politics of all those foreign countries, they'd probably leave us alone. It's called blowback. Neither you nor our politicians may ever accept that. However, that's a reality I'm prepared to face.

The last time I looked, Al Qaeda was not formed because we overthrew the Saudi government or because we fought to liberate Kuwait. Al Qaeda was formed because a few rich Saudis didn't like the US staging coalition forces in their sacred country to strike into Kuwait.

Further, in spite of all your fervor, you still come down on the wrong side of President Kimball's "We are a warlike people" talk.

Kimball was long dead when I first met missionaries.

However, if you still want to protect innocent people, why don't you go hang out in Saudi Arabia and stop the beheadings of women who made the egregious mistake of going out without a male relative? Or go to China where women are forced to abort their children? Or why not just hang out in front of the Planned Parenthood killing fields in America and try to convince women to give up their baby for adoption instead of choosing death?

Nope. Going to Saudi Arabia and trying that would get me imprisoned, beaten, then deported if I'm lucky. Otherwise it would get me executed. The same in China. Therefore I support the actions of groups who are actively working to change those situations. By the way, you probably aren't aware (I assume because of what you wrote) but China loosened the one child restriction two years ago.
And why do you think I haven't taken action to persuade women to not get an abortion?

See every time you choose an offensive war, or a pre-emptive war, I know that you're not going by yourself. The US will send hundreds or thousands of young men, and sorry but your gung ho kill 'em all attitude doesn't translate down to my children. See? They're mine. Not yours. So keep your bloody hands and thoughts off of them.

Preemptive. Why did you bother with that word? I see what's happening with North Korea and I hope that Kim backs down but I also hope that the US and South Korean militaries are ready for action in case North Korea attacks. If they attack and we fight back then it isn't preemptive. If ISIS begins a campaign of genocide against Christians in their region and we fight back on behalf of those who aren't able to defend themselves then it is responsive and not preemptive.

It is difficult to take you seriously when I say we should fight on behalf of those who need help and you call it preemptive. Carpet bombing Sudan because we think that terrorists there are planning something is an example of a preemptive attack. Retaliation is not a preemptive action.

[Silver]

Silver says:
Further, in spite of all your fervor, you still come down on the wrong side of President Kimball's "We are a warlike people" talk.

brianj says:
Kimball was long dead when I first met missionaries.

[brianj]

Would you go? Would you send your kids? Your family?

If not why are you willing to send other people?

I once signed a contract. In return for a paltry income I promised the US government my service for a period of no less than eight years, fully aware that those years could comprise the rest of my life. I have strongly encouraged my children, even my daughter, to enlist even though Operation Enduring Freedom was happening then and we were hearing talk about what eventually became Operation Iraqi Freedom.

I'm no longer in the shape necessary to hump a one hundred pound load miles across the wilderness in search of the enemy, but if the First Presidency were to call for volunteers to defend Christians being persecuted to the point of death or slavery I would respond as quickly as I could. I've put myself into potentially mortal danger trying to protect others in the past and I have no qualms against doing so again in the future.

And, to be completely candid, I have a shortage of respect for people who would save their own lives as opposed to potentially losing their lives in the service of others.

[Ezra]

Would you go? Would you send your kids? Your family?

If not why are you willing to send other people?

I once signed a contract. In return for a paltry income I promised the US government my service for a period of no less than eight years, fully aware that those years could comprise the rest of my life. I have strongly encouraged my children, even my daughter, to enlist even though Operation Enduring Freedom was happening then and we were hearing talk about what eventually became Operation Iraqi Freedom.

I'm no longer in the shape necessary to hump a one hundred pound load miles across the wilderness in search of the enemy, but if the First Presidency were to call for volunteers to defend Christians being persecuted to the point of death or slavery I would respond as quickly as I could. I've put myself into potentially mortal danger trying to protect others in the past and I have no qualms against doing so again in the future.

And, to be completely candid, I have a shortage of respect for people who would save their own lives as opposed to potentially losing their lives in the service of others.

Why do you think that the lds church is so full of people who wouldn't respond to the call of the prophet? Is it that there would be no money compensation to motivation their service?

[brianj]

Why do you think that the lds church is so full of people who wouldn't respond to the call of the prophet? Is it that there would be no money compensation to motivation their service?

Have we ever had a prophet tell us to be faithful home teachers?

Most people in the church don't even seem willing to help pick up chairs when their ward is the last one meeting in the building. I have never been in a ward where they don't have trouble getting people to help clean the church building. When volunteers are requested for just about anything it gets deathly quiet. Most of the times I have seen someone moving in or out, unless they are really popular and moving out I almost never even see five people show up. I once had a conversation with a stake president who told me that, at the start of the academic year, a lot of young men would wear shirts that aren't white but would wear white shirts to church after an elders quorum presidency was called. He was convinced they were doing so to say "don't ask me to help."

This church is full of people who are happy to serve as long as it is totally convenient. Finding people who will serve when it isn't convenient is difficult, and I would be surprised if even five percent of active church members would be willing to accept a call from the prophet that puts their lives at risk.

Is this pessimistic? yes. But it is based in observations I have made during my decades of church membership.

[Ezra]

Why do you think that the lds church is so full of people who wouldn't respond to the call of the prophet? Is it that there would be no money compensation to motivation their service?

Have we ever had a prophet tell us to be faithful home teachers?

Most people in the church don't even seem willing to help pick up chairs when their ward is the last one meeting in the building. I have never been in a ward where they don't have trouble getting people to help clean the church building. When volunteers are requested for just about anything it gets deathly quiet. Most of the times I have seen someone moving in or out, unless they are really popular and moving out I almost never even see five people show up. I once had a conversation with a stake president who told me that, at the start of the academic year, a lot of young men would wear shirts that aren't white but would wear white shirts to church after an elders quorum presidency was called. He was convinced they were doing so to say "don't ask me to help."

This church is full of people who are happy to serve as long as it is totally convenient. Finding people who will serve when it isn't convenient is difficult, and I would be surprised if even five percent of active church members would be willing to accept a call from the prophet that puts their lives at risk.

Is this pessimistic? yes. But it is based in observations I have made during my decades of church membership.

Many are called and few chosen. Due to their own choices. And I agree on your percentage

[Teancum]

So let me make the point that I believe we as peace loving people (cough) warmongers (cough), are more apt to escalate ANY tension, rather than defuse the situations whether it be road rage, international sabre rattling, or BYU vs UTAH. There is a fine line between being practised and ready to defend, and being punchy for a fight. We sometimes see this with police officers and other power figures who ride the wave of emotion rather than purposeful de-escalation.

What can we do to teach and instill the love of peace as well as teach Captain Moroni's ethics of righteous preparation for defense? How do we maintain that defensive pose without having to "test" out our preparations now and then?

May God take the helm. May Christ win the heart. May I truly embody "thy will be done".

[Teancum]

it seems with increased rapidity that I feel after this thread and wish to call out the basic individual choice we must each make. Really who's side are we on anyway? God's side or the devil's side - only two choices. The trouble is obviously that some times it is hard to distinguish whether our hearts are aligned rightly with God.

What is the initial inclination or emotion or thought that arises in us as we first hear of rumors and threats of war that may involve us? This may be instructive if we can take the time to "snapshot" that response and examine it in detail to see where our heart really lies, before we cloud the issues with justifications, excuses, and chess game reasoning. My own examination reveals a commitment to trust God and try to follow the counsels given: prepare, but offer peace. Turn the other cheek, but call upon God for deliverance. I am saddened by the fact that those who do not trust God will suffer.

[gardener4life]

Well this is a heated issue. I will comment later on it. It's a thread that's spanned a long time. But here are some minor half thread post thoughts...

I do admire people who serve, and serving your country for the right reasons is worthy. I hope people don't think anyone who has served as a soldier is a warmonger. That certainly isn't the case. People do a lot of good too if they don't forget their purpose and identity as children of God.

I wish to point out to those who have served their country and are soldiers, or who have soldiers in their families who have served or are serving now, that I am sure that having a 'fortified country' has helped our missionary force be stable. They are obviously separate issues so you have to be careful comparing soldiers to missionaries and I don't want people to think they are the same, but if you think about it we're really lucky missionaries aren't targeted from evil forces more than they are. And having our forces around the globe has helped keep our missionaries from being targetted in some ways I'm sure. I can't help think that having our own country stable and fortified is part of why that's the case. People don't tell those serving in the armed forces this, and I hope you'll spread it around. I think it could help those people serving have a good boost to think that its doing good sort of in an indirect way.

There are even some scriptural hints about it.

2 Nephi 10:12
And I will fortify this land against all other nations. ( Well this applies if we are righteous and repentant, also some verses about Zion in same chapter. )

Jacob 7:25
Wherefore, the people of Nephi did fortify against them with their arms, and with all their might, trusting in the God and rock of their salvation; wherefore, they became as yet, conquerors of their enemies.

[Teancum]

Okay, I thought it about time to bump this thread yet again.

Don't let your love wax cold.

[Teancum]

So I guess I would like to focus the discussion not on the merits of military service, but on the manufactured emotions and reasons to justify and motivate the general populace to support and approve yet another bunch of violent murders - all for the control or manipulation of oil based economies and global politics.

If stirring up the hearts of the Lamanites continually kept them in a perpetual war, and not only that but caused their hatred to be fixed so that no means could be found to reclaim them, is there a type and shadow of that today? Have we been brainwashed by the warmongers to always accept any new war because "they wronged us while crossing the sea", or "they robbed us" or "they are liars" (reasons the Lamanites justified their wars)? Do current manufactured or false reasons mimick those of scripture? Are we in danger of not being able to be reclaimed from our hatred?

[JK4Woods]

So I guess I would like to focus the discussion not on the merits of military service, but on the manufactured emotions and reasons to justify and motivate the general populace to support and approve yet another bunch of violent murders - all for the control or manipulation of oil based economies and global politics.

If stirring up the hearts of the Lamanites continually kept them in a perpetual war, and not only that but caused their hatred to be fixed so that no means could be found to reclaim them, is there a type and shadow of that today? Have we been brainwashed by the warmongers to always accept any new war because "they wronged us while crossing the sea", or "they robbed us" or "they are liars" (reasons the Lamanites justified their wars)? Do current manufactured or false reasons mimick those of scripture? Are we in danger of not being able to be reclaimed from our hatred?

Yes to all of it.

How does one archduke being murdered in Sarajevo lead to WWI ...??

We understand the invasion of France and the low lands being the main reason for WWII. (Plus Pearl Harbor). That was an epoch of territorial expansion.

In today’s world, just like in the BoM, there are lots of ways to start a war. Quickest seems to be disaffected residents among the Nephites as turncoats.

So expect some faction in the US to appeal to outside forces to enter and “clean out all those who oppose their agenda”.

It’s not going to be pretty. Blood and horror... blood and horror.... right here in our great land...

[nightlight]

If there is an overseas draft....me and my are bugging out to the ^^^^. No way I'm going to leave my family to fight on soil that is not mine.
Mormon knows whats up

[Teancum]

It seems just about the right time to bump this thread. Warmongering and poking countries with a stick seems to be a favorite pastime.

Should we tolerate lies and emotional propaganda to justify murder?

[mirkwood]

Buck Showalter was once ripped apart for running up the score as his team was stealing bases and taking extra bases while they were up by double digits.

In the post game press conference, his answer was simple: “When the other team stops trying to come back, I’ll stop trying to score....”

Regardless of who perpetrated 9/11 or what ideology they followed, the “memory” that is being referenced is that there are bad people out there....people whose SOLE existence is wrapped up in perpetrating evil, by proxy, giving them the upper hand.

Regardless of where he fits in the realm of ties to 9/11, if any at all, Quasem Soleimani was one of the most evil terrorists walking the planet, responsible for the loss of hundreds of American lives. Should we (America) have waited until he killed more??? How many more then???? What’s an acceptable number of lives lost before he deserves to be hunted???

We will never know how many lives Quasem’s death has saved.

But I will never forget what treating stone cold terrorists like they are inconsequential or incapable of mass destruction landed us. And if the vaporizing of Quasem prevented the loss of even ONE more American life, I’m good with it.

It’s hard for me to fathom that ANY American citizen WOULDNT be.

When they stop trying to come back, only THEN should we stop trying to win...and not a minute sooner.

[ajax]

Imperial troops experiencing resistance from barbarian locals? Who would’ve thought?

The elephant in the room being WE ARE OVER THERE.

Imagine the Iranians overthrowing Eisenhower in ‘53, setting up a puppet government that we rebel against in ‘79, support Mexico in an 8 year war in the ‘80s, establish dozens of military bases along the Canadian and Mexican borders, set up naval presence in the Gulf of Mexico. Ya think Americans would resist?

How many innocents have we killed now? Tens if not hundreds of thousands?

Our leaders are domestic enemies, subject to the war profiteers.

Lies, the Bethlehem Doctrine, and the Illegal Murder of Soleimani

[ajax]

Quasem Soleimani was one of the most evil terrorists walking the planet, responsible for the loss of hundreds of American lives. Should we (America) have waited until he killed more??? How many more then???? What’s an acceptable number of lives lost before he deserves to be hunted???

He doesn't hold a candle to Trump...here is Trump's terrorist record:

Trump’s Military Drops a Bomb Every 12 Minutes, and No One Is Talking About It
The U.S. Never Dropped As Many Bombs On Afghanistan As It Did In 2018
Bombs, missiles falling at record pace in long-running Afghanistan war
US Government Drops 121 Bombs Every Day, Reports Say

So who is the one terrorizing foreign peoples, killing tens of thousands?
He's right under your nose, wearing a suit, sitting in the Oval Office.

So I ask you, how many more do we allow him to kill? What is an acceptable number of foreign lives before he deserves to be hunted?

The US is responsible for hundreds of thousands of lives, if not millions over the last three decades. When will YOU stop supporting this?

Here's the most recent, which happens on a daily occurrence:
Iraq Reports US Airstrike Hit Convoy of Medics North of Baghdad

The truth sucks my friend, but at the same time sets you free.

[Bronco73idi]

Quasem Soleimani was one of the most evil terrorists walking the planet, responsible for the loss of hundreds of American lives. Should we (America) have waited until he killed more??? How many more then???? What’s an acceptable number of lives lost before he deserves to be hunted???

He doesn't hold a candle to Trump...here is Trump's terrorist record:

Trump’s Military Drops a Bomb Every 12 Minutes, and No One Is Talking About It
The U.S. Never Dropped As Many Bombs On Afghanistan As It Did In 2018
Bombs, missiles falling at record pace in long-running Afghanistan war
US Government Drops 121 Bombs Every Day, Reports Say

So who is the one terrorizing foreign peoples, killing tens of thousands?
He's right under your nose, wearing a suit, sitting in the Oval Office.

So I ask you, how many more do we allow him to kill? What is an acceptable number of foreign lives before he deserves to be hunted?

The US is responsible for hundreds of thousands of lives, if not millions over the last three decades. When will YOU stop supporting this?

Here's the most recent, which happens on a daily occurrence:
Iraq Reports US Airstrike Hit Convoy of Medics North of Baghdad

The truth sucks my friend, but at the same time sets you free.

The real truth sets me free, they are all part of the forth kingdom.

Just wait until the real villains take office.

2 Esdras 12:24 And of those that dwell therein with much oppression, above all those that were before them: therefore are they called the heads of the Eagle.

[Aprhys]

LDS people like to wave the patriotic flag but are absent when the rubber meets the road. Utah has less than four enlistments per one thousand eligible individuals. This is one of the lowest rates in the nation. Again, I have spent my adult life with .mil and more often than not when I talk with a kid about enlisting his parents wildly discourage it. Dont get me wrong, there are some amazing men and women of our faith who do sign up but for the most part LDS people are cowards who "support the troops..." as long as its someone elses kid. Sadly we cannot claim any heritage to 0-3 Moroni.