Warmongers!

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brianj
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by brianj »

Ezra wrote: April 20th, 2017, 10:22 pm Why do you think that the lds church is so full of people who wouldn't respond to the call of the prophet? Is it that there would be no money compensation to motivation their service?
Have we ever had a prophet tell us to be faithful home teachers?

Most people in the church don't even seem willing to help pick up chairs when their ward is the last one meeting in the building. I have never been in a ward where they don't have trouble getting people to help clean the church building. When volunteers are requested for just about anything it gets deathly quiet. Most of the times I have seen someone moving in or out, unless they are really popular and moving out I almost never even see five people show up. I once had a conversation with a stake president who told me that, at the start of the academic year, a lot of young men would wear shirts that aren't white but would wear white shirts to church after an elders quorum presidency was called. He was convinced they were doing so to say "don't ask me to help."

This church is full of people who are happy to serve as long as it is totally convenient. Finding people who will serve when it isn't convenient is difficult, and I would be surprised if even five percent of active church members would be willing to accept a call from the prophet that puts their lives at risk.

Is this pessimistic? yes. But it is based in observations I have made during my decades of church membership.

Ezra
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by Ezra »

brianj wrote: April 21st, 2017, 8:02 pm
Ezra wrote: April 20th, 2017, 10:22 pm Why do you think that the lds church is so full of people who wouldn't respond to the call of the prophet? Is it that there would be no money compensation to motivation their service?
Have we ever had a prophet tell us to be faithful home teachers?

Most people in the church don't even seem willing to help pick up chairs when their ward is the last one meeting in the building. I have never been in a ward where they don't have trouble getting people to help clean the church building. When volunteers are requested for just about anything it gets deathly quiet. Most of the times I have seen someone moving in or out, unless they are really popular and moving out I almost never even see five people show up. I once had a conversation with a stake president who told me that, at the start of the academic year, a lot of young men would wear shirts that aren't white but would wear white shirts to church after an elders quorum presidency was called. He was convinced they were doing so to say "don't ask me to help."

This church is full of people who are happy to serve as long as it is totally convenient. Finding people who will serve when it isn't convenient is difficult, and I would be surprised if even five percent of active church members would be willing to accept a call from the prophet that puts their lives at risk.

Is this pessimistic? yes. But it is based in observations I have made during my decades of church membership.
Many are called and few chosen. Due to their own choices. And I agree on your percentage

Teancum
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by Teancum »

So let me make the point that I believe we as peace loving people (cough) warmongers (cough), are more apt to escalate ANY tension, rather than defuse the situations whether it be road rage, international sabre rattling, or BYU vs UTAH. There is a fine line between being practised and ready to defend, and being punchy for a fight. We sometimes see this with police officers and other power figures who ride the wave of emotion rather than purposeful de-escalation.

What can we do to teach and instill the love of peace as well as teach Captain Moroni's ethics of righteous preparation for defense? How do we maintain that defensive pose without having to "test" out our preparations now and then?

May God take the helm. May Christ win the heart. May I truly embody "thy will be done".

Teancum
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by Teancum »

it seems with increased rapidity that I feel after this thread and wish to call out the basic individual choice we must each make. Really who's side are we on anyway? God's side or the devil's side - only two choices. The trouble is obviously that some times it is hard to distinguish whether our hearts are aligned rightly with God.

What is the initial inclination or emotion or thought that arises in us as we first hear of rumors and threats of war that may involve us? This may be instructive if we can take the time to "snapshot" that response and examine it in detail to see where our heart really lies, before we cloud the issues with justifications, excuses, and chess game reasoning. My own examination reveals a commitment to trust God and try to follow the counsels given: prepare, but offer peace. Turn the other cheek, but call upon God for deliverance. I am saddened by the fact that those who do not trust God will suffer.

gardener4life
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by gardener4life »

Well this is a heated issue. I will comment later on it. It's a thread that's spanned a long time. But here are some minor half thread post thoughts...

I do admire people who serve, and serving your country for the right reasons is worthy. I hope people don't think anyone who has served as a soldier is a warmonger. That certainly isn't the case. People do a lot of good too if they don't forget their purpose and identity as children of God.

I wish to point out to those who have served their country and are soldiers, or who have soldiers in their families who have served or are serving now, that I am sure that having a 'fortified country' has helped our missionary force be stable. They are obviously separate issues so you have to be careful comparing soldiers to missionaries and I don't want people to think they are the same, but if you think about it we're really lucky missionaries aren't targeted from evil forces more than they are. And having our forces around the globe has helped keep our missionaries from being targetted in some ways I'm sure. I can't help think that having our own country stable and fortified is part of why that's the case. People don't tell those serving in the armed forces this, and I hope you'll spread it around. I think it could help those people serving have a good boost to think that its doing good sort of in an indirect way.

There are even some scriptural hints about it.

2 Nephi 10:12
And I will fortify this land against all other nations. ( Well this applies if we are righteous and repentant, also some verses about Zion in same chapter. )

Jacob 7:25
Wherefore, the people of Nephi did fortify against them with their arms, and with all their might, trusting in the God and rock of their salvation; wherefore, they became as yet, conquerors of their enemies.

Teancum
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by Teancum »

Okay, I thought it about time to bump this thread yet again.

Don't let your love wax cold.

Teancum
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by Teancum »

So I guess I would like to focus the discussion not on the merits of military service, but on the manufactured emotions and reasons to justify and motivate the general populace to support and approve yet another bunch of violent murders - all for the control or manipulation of oil based economies and global politics.

If stirring up the hearts of the Lamanites continually kept them in a perpetual war, and not only that but caused their hatred to be fixed so that no means could be found to reclaim them, is there a type and shadow of that today? Have we been brainwashed by the warmongers to always accept any new war because "they wronged us while crossing the sea", or "they robbed us" or "they are liars" (reasons the Lamanites justified their wars)? Do current manufactured or false reasons mimick those of scripture? Are we in danger of not being able to be reclaimed from our hatred?

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JK4Woods
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by JK4Woods »

Teancum wrote: June 15th, 2019, 9:37 am So I guess I would like to focus the discussion not on the merits of military service, but on the manufactured emotions and reasons to justify and motivate the general populace to support and approve yet another bunch of violent murders - all for the control or manipulation of oil based economies and global politics.

If stirring up the hearts of the Lamanites continually kept them in a perpetual war, and not only that but caused their hatred to be fixed so that no means could be found to reclaim them, is there a type and shadow of that today? Have we been brainwashed by the warmongers to always accept any new war because "they wronged us while crossing the sea", or "they robbed us" or "they are liars" (reasons the Lamanites justified their wars)? Do current manufactured or false reasons mimick those of scripture? Are we in danger of not being able to be reclaimed from our hatred?
Yes to all of it.

How does one archduke being murdered in Sarajevo lead to WWI ...??

We understand the invasion of France and the low lands being the main reason for WWII. (Plus Pearl Harbor). That was an epoch of territorial expansion.

In today’s world, just like in the BoM, there are lots of ways to start a war. Quickest seems to be disaffected residents among the Nephites as turncoats.

So expect some faction in the US to appeal to outside forces to enter and “clean out all those who oppose their agenda”.

It’s not going to be pretty. Blood and horror... blood and horror.... right here in our great land...

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nightlight
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If there is an overseas draft....me and my are bugging out to the ^^^^. No way I'm going to leave my family to fight on soil that is not mine.
Mormon knows whats up

Teancum
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by Teancum »

It seems just about the right time to bump this thread. Warmongering and poking countries with a stick seems to be a favorite pastime.

Should we tolerate lies and emotional propaganda to justify murder?

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mirkwood
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by mirkwood »

Buck Showalter was once ripped apart for running up the score as his team was stealing bases and taking extra bases while they were up by double digits.

In the post game press conference, his answer was simple: “When the other team stops trying to come back, I’ll stop trying to score....”

Regardless of who perpetrated 9/11 or what ideology they followed, the “memory” that is being referenced is that there are bad people out there....people whose SOLE existence is wrapped up in perpetrating evil, by proxy, giving them the upper hand.

Regardless of where he fits in the realm of ties to 9/11, if any at all, Quasem Soleimani was one of the most evil terrorists walking the planet, responsible for the loss of hundreds of American lives. Should we (America) have waited until he killed more??? How many more then???? What’s an acceptable number of lives lost before he deserves to be hunted???

We will never know how many lives Quasem’s death has saved.

But I will never forget what treating stone cold terrorists like they are inconsequential or incapable of mass destruction landed us. And if the vaporizing of Quasem prevented the loss of even ONE more American life, I’m good with it.

It’s hard for me to fathom that ANY American citizen WOULDNT be.

When they stop trying to come back, only THEN should we stop trying to win...and not a minute sooner.

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ajax
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by ajax »

Imperial troops experiencing resistance from barbarian locals? Who would’ve thought?

The elephant in the room being WE ARE OVER THERE.

Imagine the Iranians overthrowing Eisenhower in ‘53, setting up a puppet government that we rebel against in ‘79, support Mexico in an 8 year war in the ‘80s, establish dozens of military bases along the Canadian and Mexican borders, set up naval presence in the Gulf of Mexico. Ya think Americans would resist?

How many innocents have we killed now? Tens if not hundreds of thousands?

Our leaders are domestic enemies, subject to the war profiteers.

Lies, the Bethlehem Doctrine, and the Illegal Murder of Soleimani

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ajax
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by ajax »

mirkwood wrote: January 5th, 2020, 1:15 pm Quasem Soleimani was one of the most evil terrorists walking the planet, responsible for the loss of hundreds of American lives. Should we (America) have waited until he killed more??? How many more then???? What’s an acceptable number of lives lost before he deserves to be hunted???
He doesn't hold a candle to Trump...here is Trump's terrorist record:

Trump’s Military Drops a Bomb Every 12 Minutes, and No One Is Talking About It
The U.S. Never Dropped As Many Bombs On Afghanistan As It Did In 2018
Bombs, missiles falling at record pace in long-running Afghanistan war
US Government Drops 121 Bombs Every Day, Reports Say

So who is the one terrorizing foreign peoples, killing tens of thousands?
He's right under your nose, wearing a suit, sitting in the Oval Office.

So I ask you, how many more do we allow him to kill? What is an acceptable number of foreign lives before he deserves to be hunted?

The US is responsible for hundreds of thousands of lives, if not millions over the last three decades. When will YOU stop supporting this?

Here's the most recent, which happens on a daily occurrence:
Iraq Reports US Airstrike Hit Convoy of Medics North of Baghdad

The truth sucks my friend, but at the same time sets you free.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by Bronco73idi »

ajax wrote: January 5th, 2020, 8:33 pm
mirkwood wrote: January 5th, 2020, 1:15 pm Quasem Soleimani was one of the most evil terrorists walking the planet, responsible for the loss of hundreds of American lives. Should we (America) have waited until he killed more??? How many more then???? What’s an acceptable number of lives lost before he deserves to be hunted???
He doesn't hold a candle to Trump...here is Trump's terrorist record:

Trump’s Military Drops a Bomb Every 12 Minutes, and No One Is Talking About It
The U.S. Never Dropped As Many Bombs On Afghanistan As It Did In 2018
Bombs, missiles falling at record pace in long-running Afghanistan war
US Government Drops 121 Bombs Every Day, Reports Say

So who is the one terrorizing foreign peoples, killing tens of thousands?
He's right under your nose, wearing a suit, sitting in the Oval Office.

So I ask you, how many more do we allow him to kill? What is an acceptable number of foreign lives before he deserves to be hunted?

The US is responsible for hundreds of thousands of lives, if not millions over the last three decades. When will YOU stop supporting this?

Here's the most recent, which happens on a daily occurrence:
Iraq Reports US Airstrike Hit Convoy of Medics North of Baghdad

The truth sucks my friend, but at the same time sets you free.
The real truth sets me free, they are all part of the forth kingdom.

Just wait until the real villains take office.

2 Esdras 12:24 And of those that dwell therein with much oppression, above all those that were before them: therefore are they called the heads of the Eagle.

Aprhys
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by Aprhys »

LDS people like to wave the patriotic flag but are absent when the rubber meets the road. Utah has less than four enlistments per one thousand eligible individuals. This is one of the lowest rates in the nation. Again, I have spent my adult life with .mil and more often than not when I talk with a kid about enlisting his parents wildly discourage it. Dont get me wrong, there are some amazing men and women of our faith who do sign up but for the most part LDS people are cowards who "support the troops..." as long as its someone elses kid. Sadly we cannot claim any heritage to 0-3 Moroni.

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nightlight
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by nightlight »

Aprhys wrote: January 6th, 2020, 3:25 am LDS people like to wave the patriotic flag but are absent when the rubber meets the road. Utah has less than four enlistments per one thousand eligible individuals. This is one of the lowest rates in the nation. Again, I have spent my adult life with .mil and more often than not when I talk with a kid about enlisting his parents wildly discourage it. Dont get me wrong, there are some amazing men and women of our faith who do sign up but for the most part LDS people are cowards who "support the troops..." as long as its someone elses kid. Sadly we cannot claim any heritage to 0-3 Moroni.
Yea....let's teach our kids to join the military industrial machine....so they can fight in rich men's proxy wars.

No thanks, bro.

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ajax
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by ajax »

Aprhys wrote: January 6th, 2020, 3:25 am Utah has less than four enlistments per one thousand eligible individuals. This is one of the lowest rates in the nation.
+1 for Utah.

tdj
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by tdj »

My attitude is pretty simple on the subject. Yes, we probably should have stayed out of some of these countries, and it no doubt contributes to why they have attacked us. HOWEVER, we are not under ANY obligation to stand idly by like meek little weaklings once they DO attack us and not be expected to fight back and defend ourselves. Trump had already called on removing the bulk of the military out of that region some months ago, and he was met by outrage from doing THAT. Now that he's decided to take out a known terrorist who is responsible for killing thousands of our soldiers, he's getting heat from that just because the guy was a bigshot Iranian general in addition to being a terrorist scumbag. No innocent children or civilians were killed in that bombing. I don't know if it's been brought up in the media, but it was the most efficient killing it could possibly be. No innocent people were killed at all. Not even the driver. Trump has the right to go after anyone who goes after Americans.
Trumps doing an incredible job on this and what no one wants to talk about is that he knows the mind of the average middle easterner. They like to fight with their mouths and talk a bunch of crap. Regardless of WHY they attack, if you back down and apologize or withdraw, they only see that as weakness and they won't let you go, but continue to attack. So what Trump is doing will ultimately keep the peace, rather then hurt it. This won't come to a war, trust me on that. Iran is no threat, and neither is Iraq or Syria. And if there were any threat from Russia jumping in against us, we would have heard it by now. Trumps got Russia in his back pocket after all, remember? I'll say it again, there's a very good reason Trump has been buddying around with the dictators.

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JK4Woods
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by JK4Woods »

ajax wrote: January 5th, 2020, 8:33 pm
mirkwood wrote: January 5th, 2020, 1:15 pm Quasem Soleimani was one of the most evil terrorists walking the planet, responsible for the loss of hundreds of American lives. Should we (America) have waited until he killed more??? How many more then???? What’s an acceptable number of lives lost before he deserves to be hunted???
He doesn't hold a candle to Trump...here is Trump's terrorist record:

Trump’s Military Drops a Bomb Every 12 Minutes, and No One Is Talking About It
The U.S. Never Dropped As Many Bombs On Afghanistan As It Did In 2018
Bombs, missiles falling at record pace in long-running Afghanistan war
US Government Drops 121 Bombs Every Day, Reports Say

So who is the one terrorizing foreign peoples, killing tens of thousands?
He's right under your nose, wearing a suit, sitting in the Oval Office.

So I ask you, how many more do we allow him to kill? What is an acceptable number of foreign lives before he deserves to be hunted?

The US is responsible for hundreds of thousands of lives, if not millions over the last three decades. When will YOU stop supporting this?

Here's the most recent, which happens on a daily occurrence:
Iraq Reports US Airstrike Hit Convoy of Medics North of Baghdad

The truth sucks my friend, but at the same time sets you free.
The bombing in 2018 in Iraq is because of the reduced quantity of American bots on the ground.
Troops were pulled out,and hence less patrols and infantry missions with attendant casualties.

Bombing gets things done with less loss of American life.

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ajax
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by ajax »

tdj wrote: January 6th, 2020, 10:35 am Now that he's decided to take out a known terrorist who is responsible for killing thousands of our soldiers,
It's up in the thousands now? I thought it was 600+. The legend keeps growing. Of course you realize this is an unsubstantiated claim pulled out of thin air. On the other hand, who is responsible for the deaths of tens to hundreds of thousands of civilians over the last two decades due to constant daily bombing? If you go back three decades you can include the half million Iraqi children dead, acknowledged by the venerable Ms Albright.
tdj wrote: January 6th, 2020, 10:35 am No innocent children or civilians were killed in that bombing. I don't know if it's been brought up in the media, but it was the most efficient killing it could possibly be. No innocent people were killed at all. Not even the driver.
Well, thank heavens for that. How thoughtful of him. It must have been an oversight on his part.

Column: Trump’s brand of war is killing more civilians than before

Civilian Deaths in U.S. Wars Are Skyrocketing Under Trump.

tdj wrote: January 6th, 2020, 10:35 amTrumps doing an incredible job on this and what no one wants to talk about is that he knows the mind of the average middle easterner.
Wow. Fascinating. Almost god-like.
tdj wrote: January 6th, 2020, 10:35 amThey like to fight with their mouths and talk a bunch of crap.
Yeah! "A bunch of crap". How dare they talk smack to their righteous overlords who only want to love them to death.
JK4Woods wrote: January 6th, 2020, 11:00 am Bombing gets things done with less loss of American life.
How very kind. May we all learn to stop worrying and love the bomb[ s ].

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JK4Woods
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by JK4Woods »

ajax wrote: January 6th, 2020, 12:01 pm
tdj wrote: January 6th, 2020, 10:35 am Now that he's decided to take out a known terrorist who is responsible for killing thousands of our soldiers,
It's up in the thousands now? I thought it was 600+. The legend keeps growing. Of course you realize this is an unsubstantiated claim pulled out of thin air. On the other hand, who is responsible for the deaths of tens to hundreds of thousands of civilians over the last two decades due to constant daily bombing? If you go back three decades you can include the half million Iraqi children dead, acknowledged by the venerable Ms Albright.
tdj wrote: January 6th, 2020, 10:35 am No innocent children or civilians were killed in that bombing. I don't know if it's been brought up in the media, but it was the most efficient killing it could possibly be. No innocent people were killed at all. Not even the driver.
Well, thank heavens for that. How thoughtful of him. It must have been an oversight on his part.

Column: Trump’s brand of war is killing more civilians than before

Civilian Deaths in U.S. Wars Are Skyrocketing Under Trump.

tdj wrote: January 6th, 2020, 10:35 amTrumps doing an incredible job on this and what no one wants to talk about is that he knows the mind of the average middle easterner.
Wow. Fascinating. Almost god-like.
tdj wrote: January 6th, 2020, 10:35 amThey like to fight with their mouths and talk a bunch of crap.
Yeah! "A bunch of crap". How dare they talk smack to their righteous overlords who only want to love them to death.
JK4Woods wrote: January 6th, 2020, 11:00 am Bombing gets things done with less loss of American life.
How very kind. May we all learn to stop worrying and love the bomb[ s ].
Actually, I am pretty ticked that we have been militarily involved in Afghanistan and Iraq for waay too loong. I am especially incensed we have spent ten years in 'Stan and have done nothing to convert the agricultural cash crop from poppies (opium / heroin) to other food sources that actually contribute to a better world.

Dark powers, dark intentions and dark goals are everywhere... among our enemies, and among our own citizens, big companies, and political machines of both parties.

In WWII America won complete victory, and then stuck out a helping hand to help our former enemies rebuild into responsible allies. I can't stand that the US leadership, has no vision or determination to get us out of over there.

Too much sway by the military-industrial complex and geo-political gamesmanship regarding oil and power.

tdj
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by tdj »

ajax wrote: January 6th, 2020, 12:01 pm
tdj wrote: January 6th, 2020, 10:35 am Now that he's decided to take out a known terrorist who is responsible for killing thousands of our soldiers,
It's up in the thousands now? I thought it was 600+. The legend keeps growing. Of course you realize this is an unsubstantiated claim pulled out of thin air. On the other hand, who is responsible for the deaths of tens to hundreds of thousands of civilians over the last two decades due to constant daily bombing? If you go back three decades you can include the half million Iraqi children dead, acknowledged by the venerable Ms Albright.
tdj wrote: January 6th, 2020, 10:35 am No innocent children or civilians were killed in that bombing. I don't know if it's been brought up in the media, but it was the most efficient killing it could possibly be. No innocent people were killed at all. Not even the driver.
Well, thank heavens for that. How thoughtful of him. It must have been an oversight on his part.

Column: Trump’s brand of war is killing more civilians than before

Civilian Deaths in U.S. Wars Are Skyrocketing Under Trump.

tdj wrote: January 6th, 2020, 10:35 amTrumps doing an incredible job on this and what no one wants to talk about is that he knows the mind of the average middle easterner.
Wow. Fascinating. Almost god-like.
tdj wrote: January 6th, 2020, 10:35 amThey like to fight with their mouths and talk a bunch of crap.
Yeah! "A bunch of crap". How dare they talk smack to their righteous overlords who only want to love them to death.
JK4Woods wrote: January 6th, 2020, 11:00 am Bombing gets things done with less loss of American life.
How very kind. May we all learn to stop worrying and love the bomb[ s ].
Last edited by tdj on January 6th, 2020, 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lundbaek
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by lundbaek »

JK4Woods wrote: January 6th, 2020, 12:37 pm
In WWII America won complete victory, and then stuck out a helping hand to help our former enemies rebuild into responsible allies. I can't stand that the US leadership, has no vision or determination to get us out of over there.
Our most dangerous enemy even at the time of WW2 was and still is Russia, which was the biggest victor in that war, as it was intended to be.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Warmongers!

Post by Bronco73idi »

lundbaek wrote: January 6th, 2020, 1:02 pm
JK4Woods wrote: January 6th, 2020, 12:37 pm
In WWII America won complete victory, and then stuck out a helping hand to help our former enemies rebuild into responsible allies. I can't stand that the US leadership, has no vision or determination to get us out of over there.
Our most dangerous enemy even at the time of WW2 was and still is Russia, which was the biggest victor in that war, as it was intended to be.
Besides propaganda, why are our 10 tribes brethren or biggest enemy?

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ajax
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