Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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Benjamin_LK
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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

Post by Benjamin_LK »

samizdat wrote:The phrase seperation of Church and State is NOT found in the Constitution.

It is only basic in that the the FEDERAL government cannot be supported by a state-approved Church. Nor can said government make laws prohibiting the free exercise of any church.
Separation of church and state was from a Jefferson letter explicitly promising that he would uphold free excercise of religion, despite his being deist, and despite what happened in France, resulting from the French Revolution. He would not support any such condition occurring in the United States.

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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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samizdat wrote:The phrase seperation of Church and State is NOT found in the Constitution.
The phrase is not found there. The principle is found throughout the document.
samizdat wrote:It is only basic in that the the FEDERAL government cannot be supported by a state-approved Church
That threat is nonexistent.
samizdat wrote:Nor can said government make laws prohibiting the free exercise of any church.
Course the government did just that when it made a law against polygamy.

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Thinker
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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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Learn from recent history and do all you can to defend and honor marriage between a man and a woman!!!

If Democracy Doesn't Work, Try Anarchy

"Protestors of Proposition 8 in California (the marriage amendment) shoved aside a 69-year-old woman who was bearing a cross. They reportedly spit on her and stomped on her cross. They then aligned themselves in a human barricade, blocking the media from getting to or interviewing the woman.

Prop. 8 supporter Jose Nunez, 37, was assaulted brutally while distributing yard signs to other supporters after church services at the St. Stanislaus Parish in Modesto.

Calvary Chapel Chino Hills was spray painted by vandals after they learned that the church served as an official collection point for Prop. 8 petitions.

Letters containing white powder (obviously mimicking anthrax) were sent to the Salt Lake City headquarters of the Mormon church and to a temple in Los Angeles. (Thankfully, the FBI said the substance was nontoxic.)

The 25-year artistic director of the California Musical Theatre, who also happens to be a Mormon, was muscled to resign because of his $1,000 donation to the campaign to ban gay marriage in California.

A pro-homosexual, pro-anarchy organization named Bash Back marched into the middle of a church service and flung fliers and condoms to the congregants. They also hung a banner from the balcony that featured two lesbians in provocative positions at the pulpit.

And lastly, the tolerance-preaching activists also have taken their anger to the blogosphere, where posts have planted ideas ranging from burning churches to storming the citadels of government until our society is forced to overturn Prop. 8. You even can find donor blacklists online. The lists include everyone who financially backed Prop. 8..."


http://m.townhall.com/columnists/chuckn ... /page/full" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Army Of Truth
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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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While the First Amendment clearly forbids the creation of a national denomination, it says nothing about the so-called “separation
of church and state.”

The term “separation of church and state” was first used by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1801, when he responded to their concerns about state involvement in religion. Jefferson’s letter had nothing to say about limiting public religious expression, but dealt with government’s interference in the public expression of faith.

Thanks to the ACLU's interpretation of Justice Black's misreading of Jefferson’s 1801 letter in the U.S. Supreme Court decision Reynolds v. United States (1878), the ACLU has twisted Black's wording even more to:

• Deny churches the right to rent public school facilities for Sunday worship services.
• Have public displays of the Ten Commandments removed from public buildings.
• Prohibit students from praying at graduation ceremonies or football games.
• Threaten fixed income housing project residents with eviction for displaying signs about prayer in their apartment windows.
• Tell an eight-year-old girl that she cannot pass out handmade Valentines that read “Jesus Loves You.”
• Tell pastors that they do not have the right to speak freely from their pulpits applying Scripture and church teaching to candidates and elections.

Talk about misinterpretation!

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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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Army Of Truth wrote:While the First Amendment clearly forbids the creation of a national denomination, it says nothing about the so-called “separation of church and state.”
The phrase is not in the constitution. The principle is there, loud and clear.
Army Of Truth wrote: Thanks to the ACLU's interpretation of Justice Black's misreading of Jefferson’s 1801 letter in the U.S. Supreme Court decision Reynolds v. United States (1878), the ACLU has twisted Black's wording even more to:

• Deny churches the right to rent public school facilities for Sunday worship services.
Not true. Two decisions by the Supreme Court provide for the use of public school buildings by churches, religious and political groups if the public school districts rent their facilities to other community groups.
Army Of Truth wrote:• Have public displays of the Ten Commandments removed from public buildings.
There is a plaque with the 10 Commandments on it in the high school in my town. It has been there since the school was built, by the WPA, in 1932.
Army Of Truth wrote:• Prohibit students from praying at graduation ceremonies or football games.
We have had prayer before football games, PTA meetings, and city council meetings since long before the Supreme Court decision you referenced. They have continued, without missing a beat, and they still do.
Army Of Truth wrote:• Threaten fixed income housing project residents with eviction for displaying signs about prayer in their apartment windows.
I don't believe that.
Army Of Truth wrote:• Tell an eight-year-old girl that she cannot pass out handmade Valentines that read “Jesus Loves You.”
Could have happened. I'd have to see the reference.
Army Of Truth wrote:• Tell pastors that they do not have the right to speak freely from their pulpits applying Scripture and church teaching to candidates and elections.
I don't believe that either.

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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

Post by Fiannan »

The phrase is not in the constitution. The principle is there, loud and clear.

Imagine the voice of Elmer Fudd offering this response to the "living document" way of looking at the Constitution:

It is there if you look very, very carefully. That's right, along with principles like pornography being inseparably interwoven into the 1st. Amendment, abortion being very, very important a right and of course the right for two men to get married. People just ignored it for two hundred years. Very, very strange indeed. Just look very, very carefully. :-B

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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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-delete-
Last edited by passionflower on November 6th, 2016, 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KMCopeland
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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

Post by KMCopeland »

Fiannan wrote:
The phrase is not in the constitution. The principle is there, loud and clear.
Imagine the voice of Elmer Fudd offering this response to the "living document" way of looking at the Constitution:

It is there if you look very, very carefully. That's right, along with principles like pornography being inseparably interwoven into the 1st. Amendment, abortion being very, very important a right and of course the right for two men to get married. People just ignored it for two hundred years. Very, very strange indeed. Just look very, very carefully. :-B
The principle of separation of church and state actually is shot throughout the constitution. Supreme Court decisions about pornography, who gets to marry who and how many who's they get to marry -- none of that is. So clever as you think you're being with the whole Elmer Fudd thing and all -- it's falling a little flat.

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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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passionflower wrote:In protesting the ERA as well as today's gay marriage, the church was not and is not taking a political stand, it is taking a moral stand.
It's taking a moral stand and it should. It also took a political stand, and it shouldn't have. And it didn't just take political stand on Prop 8, it shifted into high gear to defeat it. It used its power and influence in politics. It should not have done that. It's in bald opposition to the Constitution.


Churches should most definitely take moral stands -- in churches. In its printed matter, and in its communications with its members. In its broadcasts -- in General Conference for instance. It should tell its members how they should conduct their personal lives. It should not put political pressure on them to get them or anyone else to vote one way or another, on anything. It's un-American.
passionflower wrote:I do not see how the church, on making a stand on Prop 8, is doing the same thing as it would be by supporting certain political candidates, or political parties and pouring tithing funds into campaigns that would grant greater political power to certain parties over others.
But it didn't just take a stand on Prop 8. It poured tithing funds into a campaign to prevent the people of California from overturning a law that it approved of on moral /religious grounds. The founding fathers would absolutely be horrified not only that ANY church had that much influence, but also that it was free to excercise it. And believe me, if not just our church but all churches don't stop it, there is real danger of them losing tax-exempt status. And if they don't stop it -- not just ours but all churches -- they should lose tax exempt status because it means they've gone from being forces for personal righteousness in individual lives to political machines. I repeat: a country is not a church. It was intended by the founding fathers, and by the Constitution they wrote, that churches, and government, be rigidly separate in this country. The church's behavior on Prop 8 represents a clear, complete blending of the two. It's wildly unconstitutional -- wildly.
passionflower wrote:I do see that the church, and all churches for that matter, have a right to stand up for morality, and for laws that support morality, and in fact any group or individual does.
They do have that right -- to stand up for morality. I agree. But churches need to stay out of political fights.
passionflower wrote:I am pretty sure that if the church came out in favor of gay marriage, or the ERA, there would be no talk of taking away the churchs' tax exempt status, because they are "meddling" in politics. Oh, no. The church would be seen as heroic.
Well, I disagree with you completely. I doubt if that would happen. But you make my point. If a church has the power to influence laws & politics, they can influence it in a way that you and I might be very unhappy about. You're happy that the Church won on Prop 8 -- would you be just as happy if Jehovah's Witnesses successfully supported a proposition to outlaw blood transfusions?

KMCopeland
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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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Rincon wrote:Elder Jensen did not apologize for Proposition 8. He showed sorrow and pain because Proposition 8 was necessary. He did not condone homosexuality.

The way I read your post is that you are now questioning the position of the Prophet and the Twelve. Either Thomas S. Monson is a prophet or he is not. You will have to decide that in your own mind. If the prophet is wrong on same sex marriage, he is probably wrong on many other issues too. You decide.
I love and admire President Monson too. And we know that, in the latter days, even the very elect can be mistaken.
Rincon wrote:Remember how Jesus dealt with the Phariasees. He was firm, just like President Monson is firm on same sex marriage. He doesn't water down the doctrine to satisfy everyone. God didn't come down and console the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Well, we have no record that he did, anyway. Jesus did however, advise people determined to stone someone they caught in sexual sin to cast the first stone only if they were without sin themselves.
Rincon wrote:To me President Monson is right on every issue every time. Proposition 8 was the will of God.
The Pharisees were the ones who thought that everybody should do things their way. Jesus was the one who condemned loud, public, large-scale sanctimony.

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LDX
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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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I'll just drop this around here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crW_6gp ... ploademail" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by LDX on July 24th, 2014, 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

Post by Paisa »

LDX wrote:I'll just drop this aorund here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crW_6gp ... ploademail" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The guy in that video is a self-righteous embecil.

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uglypitbull
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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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Neal Maxwell on the issue...back in 1978


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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

Post by Tribunal »

Benjamin_LK wrote:
samizdat wrote:The phrase seperation of Church and State is NOT found in the Constitution.

It is only basic in that the the FEDERAL government cannot be supported by a state-approved Church. Nor can said government make laws prohibiting the free exercise of any church.
Separation of church and state was from a Jefferson letter explicitly promising that he would uphold free excercise of religion, despite his being deist, and despite what happened in France, resulting from the French Revolution. He would not support any such condition occurring in the United States.
The separation of Church and State is a political weapon used by the socialists to control those who believe in God and freedom.

Instead of following Heavenly Father they believe in the rule (whims) of the majority and the rule (whims) of government.

Instead of charity they believe that their god (government) should have the power to take (taxes) from some to give (welfare) to others.

Instead of believing in the sanctity and purpose of life they believe their god (government) should have the power to define life and regulate (control) the death of the most innocent among us.

Instead of believing in the sanctity and purpose of marriage they believe their god (government) should have the power to define marriage as a simple contact and regulate (control) it.

Instead of believing in the ability of a sovereign person to exercise a right they believe their god (government) should have the power to define our rights as legal claims to something and regulate (control) it.

Instead of believing that two people should have the power to engage in contracts, and do business with each other, they believe that their god (government) should have power to define a business as a public entity and regulate (control) it.

Our Heavenly Father has established His law over us through Scripture, but their god (government) has turned twelve simple commandments into thousands and thousands of pages of laws and regulations (control) that no one could possibly understand or follow.

Government is their god because they get instant gratification from it whereas the true God requires us to have faith. Their god (government) is all about control. Our God is about freedom.

No one, especially a general authority of the Church of Jesus Christ, should apologize for those who want to battle on the side of the true God.

Our society has truly become corrupt and perverted.

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Army Of Truth
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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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KMCopeland wrote:
KMCopeland wrote:
Army Of Truth wrote:While the First Amendment clearly forbids the creation of a national denomination, it says nothing about the so-called “separation of church and state.”
The phrase is not in the constitution. The principle is there, loud and clear.
The phrase is not there. The principal is not there.

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uglypitbull
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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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Army Of Truth wrote:The phrase is not there. The principal is not there.
Agreed, not to mention the Bible was used in all schools to learn reading....and to call Thomas Jefferson a deist is preposterous. Revisionist history teaches that...his writings show different. KMC would be wise to read up on the truth.... http://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Jefferson- ... 0880800062" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

more on the principle.....
John Adams in a speech to the military in 1798 warned his fellow countrymen stating, "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams is a signer of the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and our second President.

Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence said. "[T]he only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be aid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. Without religion, I believe that learning does real mischief to the morals and principles of mankind."

Noah Webster, author of the first American Speller and the first Dictionary said, "[T]he Christian religion, in its purity, is the basis, or rather the source of all genuine freedom in government. . . . and I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of that religion have not a controlling influence."

Gouverneur Morris, Penman and Signer of the Constitution. "[F]or avoiding the extremes of despotism or anarchy . . . the only ground of hope must be on the morals of the people. I believe that religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. [T]herefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

Fisher Ames author of the final wording for the First Amendment wrote, "[Why] should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the Sacred Book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and probably if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind."

John Jay, Original Chief-Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court , "The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts."

James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution; U. S. Supreme Court Justice, "Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine. . . . Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other."

Noah Webster, author of the first American Speller and the first Dictionary stated, "The moral principles and precepts contained in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. . . All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible."

Robert Winthrop, Speaker of the U. S. House, "Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet."

George Washington, General of the Revolutionary Army, president of the Constitutional Convention, First President of the United States of America, Father of our nation, " Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society."

Benjamin Franklin, Signer of the Declaration of Independence "[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

"Whereas true religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness . . . it is hereby earnestly recommended to the several States to take the most effectual measures for the encouragement thereof." Continental Congress, 1778

Note that the above quotes are but a small sample of hundreds of quotes the Founding Fathers made in regards to the importance of a religious and moral people in a successful Republican Democracy.

In our young nation, the Bible was used as a text book for the purpose of teaching children moral principles to live by. As time went on, the Bible was gradually replaced by other text books such as Noah Webster's Primer. Webster's Primer taught children to spell but was also filled with moral Bible verses. In the front of his Primer was his picture with the inscription, "Who taught millions to read but not one to sin."

This is the exact opposite of the school curriculum today. The courts in this country have revised the First Amendment, thus erecting a wall of atheism around every public school in America, where in God is not allowed to be mentioned. This is not the same wall that Thomas Jefferson envisioned.
1620 Mayflower Compact signed "Having undertaken for the glory of God and advancement of the Christian faith . . . furtherance of the ends aforesaid." The Pilgrims taught their children the Bible and the Christian faith.
1624 Virginia General Assembly rules that Indian children be rounded up and educated in religion and civilization.
1636 Harvard College owes its foundation to John Harvard a Congregational minister, who gave half his estate and books to the school. Harvard was primarily as a religious school to train clergy in the Christian faith.
1642 Compulsory School law passed in Massachusetts, called the “Old Deluder Satan Law”. This law was passed to assure that children could read their Bibles.
1670 Indian Christian Church founded on Martha's Vineyard to educate Indians.
1690 Connecticut Law passed that children be taught to read so they can read Holy Scriptures.
1690 First New England Primer is published. The Alphabet is taught using Bible verses for each letter, and has questions on Bible moral teachings. The Primer contains children's prayers, the Lords Prayer, the Ten Commandments, the Shorter Catechism and questions on the Bible by Mr. Cotton. The New England Primer will be in wide use in American schools of all types public, private, home or parochial, for the next 200 years.
1693 Rev. James Blair establishes William and Mary college to prepare students for the ministry.
1699 Yale was founded by ten ministers in order to further the reformed Protestant religion. Students were required to read Scriptures morning and evening at times of prayer.
1717 Rev. Cotton Mather starts classes for Negroes and Indians to teach the 3 "R's" plus religion.
1744 Anglican missionary Samuel Thomas opens school for Negroes in South Carolina.
1745 Yale applicants must recite Vigil, the Greek Testament, & bring sufficient testimony of his blameless and inoffensive life.
1746 Princeton was founded by the Presbyterians with the Rev. Jonathan Dickinson as its first president. Every student shall attend worship in the college hall morning and evening at the hours appointed and shall behave with gravity and reverence during the whole service.
1746 Moravian boarding school established for girls is not limited to believers.
1764 Brown University established by the Baptist to further the religious revival known as the "Great Awakening" in America.
1766 Dutch Reform Church forms Queens College (Rutgers University) teaching languages, liberal and useful arts, sciences and especially the divinity, preparing students for the ministry.
1769 Dartmouth-College is established for the education and instruction of youths in reading, writing and all parts of learning which shall appear necessary and expedient for civilizing and Christianizing the children.
1770 California Missions established teaching Indians about God.
1770 Quakers open school for Negroes in Philadelphia which include religious training.
1779 Delaware Indians bring children to George Washington for education, and Washington says "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ."
1781 Congress approves the purchase of Bibles to be used in schools.
1783 First Noah Webster (Blue Book) Speller is published, with its opening sentence declaring: "No man may put off the law of God." This speller is widely used in American schools and is peppered throughout with Bible verses. Later versions stated, "Noah Webster who taught millions to read but not one to sin."
1784 Jedediah Morse, father of American Geography, publishes the first Geography text book which contains references to Christianity.
1787 Congress passes the Northwest Ordinance which is outlines requirements for governments of new territories so they can qualify for statehood. Article 3 of the Northwest Ordinance directs the people of the territories to establish schools "to teach religion, morality, and knowledge.” Nearly every state admitted to the Union after this has written in their State Constitution wording that the schools are to teach morality and religion and they all use the Bible as the bases for their teachings.
1789 Georgetown becomes the first Catholic college in America to serve as a college and seminary to train Roman Catholic clergymen.
1796 In Washington's Presidential farewell address to the nation he encourages America to learn Biblical teachings to sustain a moral and just country.
1802 Thomas Jefferson acting as President for Washington D.C. schools requires the Bible and the Watts Hymnal to be used in classrooms.
1808 Washington's Farewell Address is published as a separate text book. Washington's Address is looked upon as one of the most important political documents in American history. In the speech Washington emphases that for America to succeed it must have a moral society which can only come from roots in the Christian faith. This text book is used until 1960's.
1828 Noah Webster publishes the American Dictionary.
1830 Dr. Benjamin Rush signer of the Declaration of Independence, letter is published in support of using the Bible as a school textbook.
1830 First Log school house opens in Keokuk, Iowa.
1836 First McGuffey reader is published which teaches the ABC's along with Bible verses. This reader is looked at as an "eclectic reader" which combine instructive axioms and proverbs, fundamentals of grammar and selections of the finest English literature.
1844 Girard proposes to teach morals without the Bible. The Supreme Court rules that American schools are to teach Christianity using the Bible. The case is argued and won by Daniel Webster. (Videl v. Girard)
1860 First Kindergarten opens in Boston.
1867 Morehouse College and Howard University are founded. Both schools are to help ex-slaves become teachers and preachers.
1870 One room Public Schools begin to take hold in the U.S.
1890 Supreme Court rules that America “is a religious people. . . . this is a Christian nation” as such it is fitting that its people would teach their children the Christian faith. (The Trinity Case)
1892 Pledge of Allegiance is written for school children to recite at school.
1892 The American Teachers Union declare that schools should continue to teach morals from the Bible as schools are turned over to the various States from the Christian Churches. Prior to this many schools had been run by churches of various denominations. Many state Constitution's mandate the teaching of morals, religion and knowledge.
Of the first 108 colleges and universities founded in America, 106 where founded as Christian schools. Of the first 126 colleges, 123 were Christian.

1900 Virtually all school text books published to date have contained Biblical references or teachings.
1923 William Jennings Bryan argues to limit funds to Presbyterian schools that teach evolution.
1925 Tennessee governor signs law forbidding the teaching of evolution in public schools. ACLU Lawyers take a school district to court in the famous Scopes Monkey Trial in an effort to have evolution taught in Tennessee Public Schools.
1925 Florida State legislators pass law requiring daily Bible reading in public schools.
1946 Dallas schools publish textbook titled "Bible Studies Course for New Testament." This book has many questions and answers about the life of Jesus Christ.
1948 Supreme Court rules that time set aside for prayer in public schools is unconstitutional. (McCollum v. Board of Education)
1954 The words "One Nation Under God" are add to the Pledge of Allegiance.
1961 There are about 1000 Christian Schools in America.
1962 Supreme Court rules that children may not recite a state written prayer in school (Engel v. Vitale).
1963 Supreme Court bans individual school prayer (Murry v. Curlett) and Bible reading in public schools (Abington Township School District v. Schempp).
1965 Supreme Court rules that a child may pray silently to himself if no one knows he is praying and his lips do not move.
1980 U.S. schools report the lowest S.A.T. scores ever, after 18 straight years of decline following the 1962 ban on school prayer.
1980 Supreme Court rules that the Ten Commandments can not be posted in classrooms, "for a child might read them, reflect upon them and then obey them." (Stone vs. Graham)
1983 President Reagan proposes a Constitutional Amendment to allow school prayer.
1984 There are now 32,000 Christian Schools in America to counter the Supreme Courts secularizing of the public school system.
1985 Supreme Court strikes down Alabama law requiring schools to have a moment of silent meditation at the beginning of the day.
1987 Supreme Court overturns a State Law requiring a balanced treatment of creation science and evolution. (Edwards vs. Aguillard)
1992 Supreme Court rules Clergy may not offer prayer at graduation ceremonies. (Lee vs. Weisman)
1999 Two Students at Littleton, Colorado High School shoot eleven students. None of the students have ever seen the Ten Commandments, "Thou shall not Kill" in a public school.
2000 Supreme Court rules student initiated or student led prayer at football games is unconstitutional. (Doe vs. Santa Fe Independent School District)
2004 Supreme Court upholds the words "One Nation Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.

2008 Christian run schools and most home schooling programs continue to produce students with higher academic test results then secular public schools.

KMCopeland
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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

Post by KMCopeland »

Paisa wrote:The guy in that video is a self-righteous embecil.
I don't see anything that could pass for self-righteousness, or imbecility. He makes an excellent point. What he doesn't understand is that idea that you don't shape a religion by current events. Although it's true that one of the things responsible for the success of our church is its ability to adapt its more controversial doctrines to the mainstream.


Either way, his point, that the church's extravagant, splashy opposition to Prop 8 almost has to damage its chances with the young and the progressive, is quite well made.

KMCopeland
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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

Post by KMCopeland »

Tribunal wrote:The separation of Church and State is a political weapon used by the socialists to control those who believe in God and freedom.
You demonstrate a near-tragic lack of understanding of the Constitution, and of your country's history, heritage, and legacy.
Tribunal wrote:Instead of charity they believe that their god (government) should have the power to take (taxes) from some to give (welfare) to others.

Instead of believing in the sanctity and purpose of life they believe their god (government) should have the power to define life and regulate (control) the death of the most innocent among us.

Instead of believing in the sanctity and purpose of marriage they believe their god (government) should have the power to define marriage as a simple contact and regulate (control) it.

Instead of believing in the ability of a sovereign person to exercise a right they believe their god (government) should have the power to define our rights as legal claims to something and regulate (control) it.

Instead of believing that two people should have the power to engage in contracts, and do business with each other, they believe that their god (government) should have power to define a business as a public entity and regulate (control) it.

Our Heavenly Father has established His law over us through Scripture, but their god (government) has turned twelve simple commandments into thousands and thousands of pages of laws and regulations (control) that no one could possibly understand or follow.

Government is their god because they get instant gratification from it whereas the true God requires us to have faith. Their god (government) is all about control. Our God is about freedom.
The preceding is such a good example of the fallacy of false dilemma that it really ought to be in a logic textbook.
Tribunal wrote:No one, especially a general authority of the Church of Jesus Christ, should apologize for those who want to battle on the side of the true God.
I fully agree. Although it takes a free country to host that battle. Meaning a country that doesn't let religious fanatics call the shots. You know, religious fanatics like the Taliban. And people like you who think their church should have control of the government. So they can make everybody be good. You know. Like Lucifer in the pre-mortal rebellion.


If you don't fight just as hard for other peoples' right to believe, and live, according to the dictates of their own consciences whether you think they are right or not, you can kiss your own freedom to be a Mormon good bye. Why you people can't seem to grasp that simple, uniquely American principle, is the mystery of the last 50 years.
Tribunal wrote:Our society has truly become corrupt and perverted.
Baloney.

Fiannan
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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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The principle of separation of church and state actually is shot throughout the constitution. Supreme Court decisions about pornography, who gets to marry who and how many who's they get to marry -- none of that is. So clever as you think you're being with the whole Elmer Fudd thing and all -- it's falling a little flat.
Call for evidence -- and the only evidence one should accept is the US Constitution or one of its signers, not anyone like Sal Alinsky or Earl Warren either.

KMCopeland
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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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Fiannan wrote:
The principle of separation of church and state actually is shot throughout the constitution. Supreme Court decisions about pornography, who gets to marry who and how many who's they get to marry -- none of that is. So clever as you think you're being with the whole Elmer Fudd thing and all -- it's falling a little flat.
Call for evidence -- and the only evidence one should accept is the US Constitution or one of its signers, not anyone like Sal Alinsky or Earl Warren either.
We can start with the fact that the Constitution conspicuously omits any reference to God.

We can move to the fact that Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and James Madison were profoundly skeptical about some of the claims of religion.

Adams wrote on June 25, 1813, "Either Sect would persecute another, if it had unchecked and unbalanced power ... the Deists would persecute Christians, and Atheists would persecute Deists, with as unrelenting cruelty as any Christians would persecute them or one another."

As president, Adams signed the 1797 Treaty with Tripoli, which reassured that Muslim nation that "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

James Madison, the father of both the Constitution and the First Amendment, consistently warned against any attempt to insert endorsement of Christianity into the laws of the new nation. "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions," he wrote in 1785, "may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?"

Article VI provides that all "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

Jefferson wrote, in an 1802 letter to a Baptist group: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

James Madison wrote that government involvement with the church "implies either that the civil magistrate is a competent judge of religious truth; or that he may employ religion as an engine of civil policy. The first is an arrogant pretension falsified by the contradictory opinions of rulers in all ages, and throughout the world: the second an unhallowed perversion of the means of salvation."

Sandra Day O'Connor (not a signatory to the Constitution, but hardly Saul Alinsky , and who, conservative though she was, would consider your exclusion of Earl Warren strong evidence that you aren't interested in any opinion, regardless of how well-founded, that disagrees with what you've already decided to believe) wrote in 2005: "Those who would renegotiate the boundaries between church and state must therefore answer a difficult question: why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly?"

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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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Tribunal wrote: Separation of church and state was from a Jefferson letter explicitly promising that he would uphold free excercise of religion, despite his being deist, and despite what happened in France, resulting from the French Revolution. He would not support any such condition occurring in the United States.
The separation of Church and State is a political weapon used by the socialists to control those who believe in God and freedom.

Instead of following Heavenly Father they believe in the rule (whims) of the majority and the rule (whims) of government.

Instead of charity they believe that their god (government) should have the power to take (taxes) from some to give (welfare) to others.

Instead of believing in the sanctity and purpose of life they believe their god (government) should have the power to define life and regulate (control) the death of the most innocent among us.

Instead of believing in the sanctity and purpose of marriage they believe their god (government) should have the power to define marriage as a simple contact and regulate (control) it.

Instead of believing in the ability of a sovereign person to exercise a right they believe their god (government) should have the power to define our rights as legal claims to something and regulate (control) it.

Instead of believing that two people should have the power to engage in contracts, and do business with each other, they believe that their god (government) should have power to define a business as a public entity and regulate (control) it.

Our Heavenly Father has established His law over us through Scripture, but their god (government) has turned twelve simple commandments into thousands and thousands of pages of laws and regulations (control) that no one could possibly understand or follow.

Government is their god because they get instant gratification from it whereas the true God requires us to have faith. Their god (government) is all about control. Our God is about freedom.

No one, especially a general authority of the Church of Jesus Christ, should apologize for those who want to battle on the side of the true God.

Our society has truly become corrupt and perverted.[/quote]

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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The Founders' own declarations in their last wills and testaments speak loud and clear that the great majority of our Founders were indeed believers in Jesus Christ. For example:

• First of all, I . . . rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins. Samuel Adams, Signer of the Declaration

• To my Creator I resign myself, humbly confding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity. John Dickinson, Signer of the Constitution

• I resign my soul into the hands of the Almighty who gave it in humble hopes of his mercy through our Savior Jesus Christ. Gabriel Duvall, U.S. Supreme Court Justice; selected as delegate to Constitutional Convention

• This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed. Patrick Henry

• I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by his beloved Son. . . . Blessed be his holy name. John Jay, Original Chief-Justice U.S. Supreme Court

• I am constrained to express my adoration of . . . the Author of my existence . . . [for] His forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state. Robert Treat Paine, Signer of the Declaration

• I think it proper here not only to subscribe to . . . doctrines of the Christian religion . . . but also, in the bowels of a father's affection, to exhort and charge them [my children] that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, that the way of life held up in the Christian system is calculated for the most complete happiness. Richard Stockton, Signer of the Declaration
Last edited by Army Of Truth on July 25th, 2014, 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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More proof?


•My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God. John Quincy Adams

•Now to the triune God, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, be ascribed all honor and dominion, forevermore ­p; Amen. Gunning Bedford, Signer of the Constitution.

•You have been instructed from your childhood in the knowledge of your lost state by nature ­p; the absolute necessity of a change of heart, and an entire renovation of soul to the image of Jesus Christ ­p; of salvation thro' His meritorious righteousness only ­p; and the indispensable necessity of personal holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. Elias Boudinot, Revolutionary Officer and President of the Continental Congress (to his daughter)

•You do well to learn . . . above all the religion of Jesus Christ. George Washington

•[D]on't forget to be a Christian. I have said much to you on this head and I hope an indelible impression is made. Jacob Broom, Signer of the Constitution (to his son)

•On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts. Charles Carroll, Signer of the Declaration

•I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ. Thomas Jefferson

•I think the Christian religion is a Divine institution; and I pray to God that I may never forget the precepts of His religion or suffer the appearance of an inconsistency in my principles and practice. James Iredell, U.S. Supreme Court Justice under President George Washington

•My only hope of salvation is in the infnite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the Cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly! Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration

•I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance, equal in power and glory. That the Scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him. Roger Sherman, Signer of both the Declaration and the Constitution

•I shall now entreat . . . you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for "there is no salvation in any other" [Acts 4:12]. . . . f you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish. John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration

KMCopeland
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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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Army Of Truth wrote:The Founders' own declarations in their last wills and testaments speak loud and clear that the great majority of our Founders were indeed believers in Jesus Christ
I'm not questioning whether or not they had religious beliefs. They did. Whether or not they believed in Jesus. Most of them did. We're arguing about whether or not they would be in favor of religion in government. They wouldn't be. We're arguing about whether the Constitution contains a principle known as the separation of church and state. It does. And every single member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints should include huge gratitude for that principle every single time he or she says their prayers.


This is the only country on earth where we could have flourished as we have. That is because of the principle of the separation of church and state. When I hear members of the church arguing that crackpot notion that all the other crackpots on the right do, that there's no such thing as separation of church and state and we need a whole bunch of religious people in charge of things I just want to scream. All I can say is they better hope they don't get what they think they want. This church is more vulnerable than most to government interference. Government persecution. We lived it. The constitutional principle of separation of church and state, also known as religious freedom, absolutely saved us. I just wonder what on earth any of you can be thinking when you advocate for religion in government.

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Re: Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8

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KMCopeland seems a bit confused so let me try to set him straight if possible.

There are three ways you can see the relationship between religion and government.

1) A nation can have a state religion that actually wields power as if part of the legislative and executive. Can be a theocracy but not necessarily.

2) A nation without any official state church but one in which religious groups are able to speak out and mobilize followers in the legislative matters of that nation.

3) A nation in which religion is excluded from public life. This can either be one like in Nordic nations that nobody who would come out and say they were a practicing Jew or Christian could ever be elected prime minister or one in which the state suppresses religion.

The USA was meant to be a nation as described in the second. The liberal left, unless it suits their purposes, believe in a system like in #3 but that was not what the founders of this nation wanted.

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