Where are our men today?

[ChelC]

not that my opinion would matter, but I agree with Mark and Shadow here. it's not good form to discuss prophets in a light that could be construed as "ill speaking". We can be better than this. This topic has quickly become a series of arguments and name calling. Putting down quotes like they were without an explanation is like throwing a dry bone to a bunch of starving dogs. everyone is going to go at it, and really it's just meaningless and empty. The meaning was simply to see them riled up.

of course the conclusion that Mark found was exactly what I thought as well.

Perhaps this is why the modern day prophets counsel us to stick to plain and simple truths? As human beings we think we understand so much. Logic and all that. Frankly, this discussion has seemed border line apostate at times.

as far as the discussion about breaking the law vs abiding them

If the Prophet says to do it, then we do it. who here thinks they see more than the Prophet RIGHT NOW? and who here has the gall to step in front of him? to say he is wrong? to suggest he needs to do things differently.

if a person who desires to throw down tyranny thinks we have more of a duty to fight against it than listen to our prophet, then he is saying in affect, that he knows better.

If the spirit tells that man to act in a manner, that is his charge alone. for him to cause contention and rile people up contrary to our prophet is a sad case for apostasy. you can already see the seeds.

Im not talking about Dr Jones, nor am I talking about speaking out against corrupt government. It is the comparing the Prophet's words against things that individual thinks should happen that are of concern.

What if the Prophet told you to lay your weapons down at your sides and lay down your life without a fight? or something less "glorious"? how about just abiding by the law, until or IF ( IF IF IF) he gets revelations otherwise? perhaps our lot is to struggle through a corrupt government until the end of our time. Then that is what we do, and we do it faithfully, like SHEEP. heaven forbid.

I absolutely agree. Thanks for putting it so well.

[FreedomWorks]

APOSTLES PENROSE & RICHARDS LETTER TO JOHN TAYLOR 2/16/1887
We then say, we consider the law of God superior to the law of the State, and if we
have to break the law of the State to keep the law of God, we will stand by the
consequences.

First Presidency 7/7/1886
God is superior to governments and courts. But he tells his Church to befriend
the constitutional law of the land. If it is not constitutional, He says it comes of evil.
It must support the principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges; if not,
it comes of evil. Who is the Lord directing? His Church. Whatever is contrary to
the freedom guaranteed by the Constitution, which includes not mere belief but the
“free exercise” of religion, He does not command His people to obey, but says they
shall do His will.

For the record, the "First Presidency" quote above was probably written by Charles W. Penrose, editor of the Deseret News. Sadly, this quote is often mis-attributed, causing trusting Saints to believe it is official Church doctrine.

Here's four reasons why I'm pretty sure it isn't from a First Presidency letter:
1. In the Deseret News article where the quote originated (seen here: https://newspapers.lib.utah.edu/details?id=2666572 ), no author is listed and the Brethren didn't affix their names, which they do in official First Presidency letters.
2. The article is written from the point of view of an observer, not one of the Presidency; the language refers to the Church as "they", not "we".
3. The author calls Joseph Smith's son "degenerate" and accuses him of putting words in his father's mouth. Pretty sure the First Presidency isn't in the habit of calling names and accusing people.
4. The article itself says that it is written in response to an editorial in the Lamont Herald which had responded to an earlier article in the Deseret News. So the two papers were having an argument in their editorial sections about who got to decide whether anti-polygamy laws were constitutional or not.

Thanks.

PS. Penrose didn't become an apostle until 1904, so the attribution on the top quote is also misleading.

[sandman45]

I wonder...how would we describe the archetypical male in the Church today?

Is he an esoteric, spiritual deep-thinker like Joseph Smith was?

Is he a dynamic, loyal visionary like Brigham Young was?

Is he a rebellious defender of truth willing to advocate living the laws of the constitution even if it meant breaking the "law of the land" like John Taylor was?

Or is he kinda like a PeeWee Herman in a white shirt?

I really wonder what we are training our young men up to be. Are we training them to stand up and not worry about what the world says, or even what fellow members think, when they are doing what is right? Are we training them to look at the examples of their spiritual forefathers in regards to marriage and family and the eternal cycle of life? Are we teaching them that the future will require men who can spread the Gospel without apology?

Any thoughts?

I have only spotted about 2 or 3 real men in my ward.. the rest are women.

beard

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[sandman45]

I find it funny that in other threads if a Prophet says something that they don't like, then it cannot contradict scripture, but if what the Church leader says something they do like than it "trumps" what a past Prophet/scripture says. (The first key is to correctly interpret what the scriptures actually say and mean. I realize you lack such means so I won't be too hard on you )

http://www.lds-mormon.com/fourteen.shtml

Just a few of Ezra T. Benson's fundamentals for those who won't read the link-

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
Fourth: The prophet will never lead the church astray.

Sixth: The prophet doesn't have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture. (Too bad ithink left us. This little nugget might help him a bit)

Eighth: The prophet is not limited to men's reasoning (or lack thereof!).

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency- the highest quorum in the church.
(The last one is off-topic for this thread, but fits in with another disagreement Mahonri and I have)

False Doctrine there..

here is true doctrine

Jeremiah 17: 5 ¶ Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

2 Nephi 4: 34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

D&C 3: 7 For, behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words—

remember even Joseph made mistakes and so did the other brethren and they were chastised in the D&C.. trust not in man but trust in God

[brianj]

I have only spotted about 2 or 3 real men in my ward.. the rest are women.

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Go to a ward or branch which serves a Marine Corps base and try asserting this. I dare you.

[Ezra]

I have only spotted about 2 or 3 real men in my ward.. the rest are women.

tumblr_inline_nqdmbyUOnV1t5xeyh_500.jpg

Go to a ward or branch which serves a Marine Corps base and try asserting this. I dare you.

I have noticed that most enlisted boys have beard envy.

[Fiannan]