Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Rep?

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
Locked
User avatar
Wiikwajio

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by Wiikwajio »

lundbaek wrote:It appears the labour we are at this time being called upon by the Brethren to perform does not include protection or salvaging our freedoms, but primarily those labours directly related to the 3 / 4 fold mission of the Church. I have communicated since Sunday with a number of freedom conscious LDSs, asking if they heard anything about freedom or constitutional principles in the Conference talks. All stated they were listening but heard nothing on the subject. That is not a good omen to me.
Why would the leadership give meat to milk drinkers? I agree with the leadership 100%.

lundbaek
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11123
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by lundbaek »

Touché!

User avatar
Jason
Master of Puppets
Posts: 18296

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by Jason »

lundbaek wrote:It appears the labour we are at this time being called upon by the Brethren to perform does not include protection or salvaging our freedoms, but primarily those labours directly related to the 3 / 4 fold mission of the Church. I have communicated since Sunday with a number of freedom conscious LDSs, asking if they heard anything about freedom or constitutional principles in the Conference talks. All stated they were listening but heard nothing on the subject. That is not a good omen to me.
I loved the comments about why the 300 were chosen.....very applicable IMO...

User avatar
patriotsaint
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1459

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by patriotsaint »

Wiikwajio wrote: Why would the leadership give meat to milk drinkers? I agree with the leadership 100%.
Then maybe you agree with Elder Cook when he said the following:
Another sign of spiritual immaturity and sometimes apostasy is when one focuses on certain gospel principles or pursues “gospel hobbies” with excess zeal. Almost any virtue taken to excess can become a vice. Some who are not authorized want to speak for the Brethren and imply that their message contains the “meat” the Brethren would teach if they were not constrained to teach only the “milk.”
So if you truly agree with the brethren, it would seem that they are not merely teaching milk according to Elder Cook.

User avatar
Mark
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6929

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by Mark »

patriotsaint wrote:
Wiikwajio wrote: Why would the leadership give meat to milk drinkers? I agree with the leadership 100%.
Then maybe you agree with Elder Cook when he said the following:
Another sign of spiritual immaturity and sometimes apostasy is when one focuses on certain gospel principles or pursues “gospel hobbies” with excess zeal. Almost any virtue taken to excess can become a vice. Some who are not authorized want to speak for the Brethren and imply that their message contains the “meat” the Brethren would teach if they were not constrained to teach only the “milk.”
So if you truly agree with the brethren, it would seem that they are not merely teaching milk according to Elder Cook.

You read my mind patriot. Elder Oaks also touched upon this principle of focusing on gospel hobbies and taking these hobbies to excess in a talk he gave some years back that has been posted on this site. The adversary is a clever devil and He will take every opportunity to turn ones strength into a weakness. It is staggering to me that some Saints would feel the Brethren are just teaching "milk" to a bunch of "milk drinkers" instead of focusing on the "meat" like secret govt. combinations and IRS 1040 (non)filings. :wink: Charity? Faith in Christ?? Priesthood power??? Temple worship???? Milk????? :shock:

lundbaek
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11123
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by lundbaek »

One could certainly not make a case for the Brethren preaching "milk" at this April Conference. Nor in the last October Conference. Granted, there was nothing said about secret combinations, freedom, or honouring the US Constitution as in decades past. In an email discussion about this omission with the author of one of the 3 books recommended by Ezra Taft Benson in the April 1972 General Conference, he offered this explanation:

"I think the Church is cautious about openly participating in freedom promotion activities partly because of concern about government retribution that might unduly hinder its primary religious mission and partly because so many members haved been indoctrinated to favor federal dominance and federal welfare and regulation that there is concern that a strong constitutional position might split the Church."

User avatar
Wiikwajio

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by Wiikwajio »

Mark wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:
Wiikwajio wrote: Why would the leadership give meat to milk drinkers? I agree with the leadership 100%.
Then maybe you agree with Elder Cook when he said the following:
Another sign of spiritual immaturity and sometimes apostasy is when one focuses on certain gospel principles or pursues “gospel hobbies” with excess zeal. Almost any virtue taken to excess can become a vice. Some who are not authorized want to speak for the Brethren and imply that their message contains the “meat” the Brethren would teach if they were not constrained to teach only the “milk.”
So if you truly agree with the brethren, it would seem that they are not merely teaching milk according to Elder Cook.

You read my mind patriot. Elder Oaks also touched upon this principle of focusing on gospel hobbies and taking these hobbies to excess in a talk he gave some years back that has been posted on this site. The adversary is a clever devil and He will take every opportunity to turn ones strength into a weakness. It is staggering to me that some Saints would feel the Brethren are just teaching "milk" to a bunch of "milk drinkers" instead of focusing on the "meat" like secret govt. combinations and IRS 1040 (non)filings. :wink: Charity? Faith in Christ?? Priesthood power??? Temple worship???? Milk????? :shock:
I need you brothers to clarify something for me.

Are you saying the refusing to lend aid, encouragement and sympathy to false isms is a "gospel hobby”? Because if what I am doing is not a "gospel hobby" then the warning does not apply. It is like reading the traffic laws to know about tax law.

Are you saying that devoting our time, means, and life if necessary, to hold inviolate those laws which will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life, is a "gospel hobby"? If that is what you are claiming you are preaching false doctrine and are preaching a "gospel hobby" doctrine and may be on the road to apostasy. Are you Substituting the Philosophies of Men for Gospel Truths?

Or is it that are you falsely accusing us of practicing "gospel hobbies" while the two of you practice the only "popular principles"? Because Elder Benson said that if you only follow the "popular principles of the gospel have their reward. And those who want to lead the quiet, retiring life but still expect to do their full duty can't have it both ways." Not Commanded in All Things.

If the popular principles lead you to an obviously lesser reward than those of us not being commanded in all things fight against false isms and are true to the faith instead of lending aid, and sympathy to those false isms perhaps you can name the "gospel hobbies" Elder Quentin L. Cook meant, since he did not actually list any.

But then perhaps basic principles change? Oops...maybe not.

"But the basic principles do not change. They will not change. They are revealed truths. Direct counsel has been given regarding the application of these revealed truths." First Presidency Message, Guiding Principles of Personal and Family Welfare, by Monson

Of course for those that seek diligently the information give on false isms has not changed in 60 years.
http://www.lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,4889-1,00.html
False Political Isms

We again warn our people in America of the constantly increasing threat against our inspired Constitution and our free institutions set up under it. The same political tenets and philosophies that have brought war and terror in other parts of the world are at work amongst us in America. The proponents thereof are seeking to undermine our own form of government and to set up instead one of the forms of dictatorships now flourishing in other lands. These revolutionists are using a technique that is as old as the human race—a fervid but false solicitude for the unfortunate over whom they thus gain mastery and then enslave them.

They suit their approaches to the particular group they seek to deceive. Among the Latter-day Saints they speak of their philosophy and their plans under it as an ushering in of the United Order. Communism and all other similar isms bear no relationship whatever to the United Order. They are merely the clumsy counterfeits which Satan always devises of the gospel plan. Communism debases the individual and makes him the enslaved tool of the state to whom he must look for sustenance and religion; the United Order exalts the individual, leaves him his property, "according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs," (D&C 51:3) and provides a system by which he helps care for his less fortunate brethren; the United Order leaves every man free to choose his own religion as his conscience directs. Communism destroys man's God-given free agency; the United Order glorifies it. Latter-day Saints can not be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies. They will prove snares to their feet.
"Some people seem to be embarrassed by the simplicity of the Savior’s message." Looking beyond the Mark, By Elder Quentin L. Cook Are you embarrassed by this message because you lend aid, encouragement and sympathy by paying voluntary taxes, being a part of a Social Security System that is socialist and in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ?

Are you claiming that I "add substantially to various doctrines" concerning eschewing Socialism. If so please show me the words of the Prophets that correct the Prophets I quote because I I really do not "add substantially" to the teachings of the Prophets in the areas of Socialism and the practice of Socialism. And if I do please point out when and where I have done so.

After all "The Lord said regarding important doctrine, “Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me” (D&C 10:68)"Looking beyond the Mark, By Elder Quentin L. Cook

Are you claiming that the warnings of David O. McKay, Conference Report, April 9, 1966, are in error?
The position of this Church on the subject of Communism has never changed. We consider it the greatest satanical threat to peace, prosperity, and the spread of God's work among men that exists on the face of the earth. . . .

I wonder if by lending aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies you can somehow believe that you can still be true to the faith? Or perhaps it is lending aid, encouragement and sympathy to these false isms, as you two appear to do time and again, is a "gospel hobby" you practice? Will you be practicing it on April 15th? I do not need to since I did what President Benson told me to do and I am free from lending aid to the Marxist in the Federal Government and at the IRS. Why didn't you do what I did?

And then again what does Joseph Smith's warning really mean?
You will live to see men arise in power in the Church who will seek to put down your friends and the friends of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Many will be hoisted because of their money and the worldly learning which they seem to be in possession of; and many who are the true followers of our Lord and Savior will be cast down because of their poverty.
(Sources: The Journal of Mosiah Lyman Hancock, p. 19-20; Autobiography of Mosiah Hancock, typescript, BYU Library Special Collections, p. 29. Compiled by Amy E. Baird, Victoria H. Jackson, and Laura L. Wassell (daughters of Mosiah Hancock). See also Crowther, Duane S., Inspired Prophetic Warnings, Horizon Publishers, Bountiful, UT, 1987, pp. 186-187.)
Good thing we can check with the Lord to confirm what the Spirit is saying to us personally because it appears the two of you may be on the road to apostasy since you obviously lend aid encouragement and sympathy to these false isms of Socialism, Fascism and even Communism.

Have a wonderful and blessed day.

User avatar
patriotsaint
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1459

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by patriotsaint »

LOL!!!!

Twist it any way you like. I see you focused on trying to define a "gospel hobby" instead of answering the rest of the post. That's a nice side-rail, but these desperate attempts to justify your judgment of Church Members and the teachings of the Brethren aren't going to fly.

What about accusing the brethren of preaching milk to milk drinkers? Do you retract that accusation, or are you going to go on record here as directly contradicting Elder Cook?

Hiding behind walls of text does not exempt you from answering the question. Your attempts to side-rail the discussion and focus only on points you can twist to your favor are pathetic.

User avatar
Mark
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6929

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by Mark »

Wiikwajio wrote:
I need you brothers to clarify something for me.

Are you saying the refusing to lend aid, encouragement and sympathy to false isms is a "gospel hobby”? Because if what I am doing is not a "gospel hobby" then the warning does not apply. It is like reading the traffic laws to know about tax law.

Are you saying that devoting our time, means, and life if necessary, to hold inviolate those laws which will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life, is a "gospel hobby"? If that is what you are claiming you are preaching false doctrine and are preaching a "gospel hobby" doctrine and may be on the road to apostasy. Are you Substituting the Philosophies of Men for Gospel Truths?

Or is it that are you falsely accusing us of practicing "gospel hobbies" while the two of you practice the only "popular principles"? Because Elder Benson said that if you only follow the "popular principles of the gospel have their reward. And those who want to lead the quiet, retiring life but still expect to do their full duty can't have it both ways." Not Commanded in All Things.

If the popular principles lead you to an obviously lesser reward than those of us not being commanded in all things fight against false isms and are true to the faith instead of lending aid, and sympathy to those false isms perhaps you can name the "gospel hobbies" Elder Quentin L. Cook meant, since he did not actually list any.

But then perhaps basic principles change? Oops...maybe not.

"But the basic principles do not change. They will not change. They are revealed truths. Direct counsel has been given regarding the application of these revealed truths." First Presidency Message, Guiding Principles of Personal and Family Welfare, by Monson

Of course for those that seek diligently the information give on false isms has not changed in 60 years.
http://www.lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,4889-1,00.html
False Political Isms

We again warn our people in America of the constantly increasing threat against our inspired Constitution and our free institutions set up under it. The same political tenets and philosophies that have brought war and terror in other parts of the world are at work amongst us in America. The proponents thereof are seeking to undermine our own form of government and to set up instead one of the forms of dictatorships now flourishing in other lands. These revolutionists are using a technique that is as old as the human race—a fervid but false solicitude for the unfortunate over whom they thus gain mastery and then enslave them.

They suit their approaches to the particular group they seek to deceive. Among the Latter-day Saints they speak of their philosophy and their plans under it as an ushering in of the United Order. Communism and all other similar isms bear no relationship whatever to the United Order. They are merely the clumsy counterfeits which Satan always devises of the gospel plan. Communism debases the individual and makes him the enslaved tool of the state to whom he must look for sustenance and religion; the United Order exalts the individual, leaves him his property, "according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs," (D&C 51:3) and provides a system by which he helps care for his less fortunate brethren; the United Order leaves every man free to choose his own religion as his conscience directs. Communism destroys man's God-given free agency; the United Order glorifies it. Latter-day Saints can not be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies. They will prove snares to their feet.
"Some people seem to be embarrassed by the simplicity of the Savior’s message." Looking beyond the Mark, By Elder Quentin L. Cook Are you embarrassed by this message because you lend aid, encouragement and sympathy by paying voluntary taxes, being a part of a Social Security System that is socialist and in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ?

Are you claiming that I "add substantially to various doctrines" concerning eschewing Socialism. If so please show me the words of the Prophets that correct the Prophets I quote because I I really do not "add substantially" to the teachings of the Prophets in the areas of Socialism and the practice of Socialism. And if I do please point out when and where I have done so.

After all "The Lord said regarding important doctrine, “Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me” (D&C 10:68)"Looking beyond the Mark, By Elder Quentin L. Cook

Are you claiming that the warnings of David O. McKay, Conference Report, April 9, 1966, are in error?
The position of this Church on the subject of Communism has never changed. We consider it the greatest satanical threat to peace, prosperity, and the spread of God's work among men that exists on the face of the earth. . . .

I wonder if by lending aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies you can somehow believe that you can still be true to the faith? Or perhaps it is lending aid, encouragement and sympathy to these false isms, as you two appear to do time and again, is a "gospel hobby" you practice? Will you be practicing it on April 15th? I do not need to since I did what President Benson told me to do and I am free from lending aid to the Marxist in the Federal Government and at the IRS. Why didn't you do what I did?

And then again what does Joseph Smith's warning really mean?
You will live to see men arise in power in the Church who will seek to put down your friends and the friends of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Many will be hoisted because of their money and the worldly learning which they seem to be in possession of; and many who are the true followers of our Lord and Savior will be cast down because of their poverty.
(Sources: The Journal of Mosiah Lyman Hancock, p. 19-20; Autobiography of Mosiah Hancock, typescript, BYU Library Special Collections, p. 29. Compiled by Amy E. Baird, Victoria H. Jackson, and Laura L. Wassell (daughters of Mosiah Hancock). See also Crowther, Duane S., Inspired Prophetic Warnings, Horizon Publishers, Bountiful, UT, 1987, pp. 186-187.)
Good thing we can check with the Lord to confirm what the Spirit is saying to us personally because it appears the two of you may be on the road to apostasy since you obviously lend aid encouragement and sympathy to these false isms of Socialism, Fascism and even Communism.

Have a wonderful and blessed day.

"Following the prophet is a great strength, but it needs to be consistent and current lest it lead to the spiritual downfall that comes from rejecting continuous revelation. Under that principle, the most important difference between dead prophets and living ones is that those who are dead are not here to receive and declare the Lord's latest words to his people. If they were, there would be no differences among the messages of the prophets.

A related distortion is seen in the practice of those who select a few sentences from the teachings of a prophet and use these to support their political agenda or other personal purposes. In doing so, they typically ignore the contrary implications of other prophetic words, or even the clear example of the prophet's own actions. For example, I have corresponded with several Church members who sought to use something President Benson is quoted as saying as a basis for refusing to file an income-tax return or to pay income taxes. I have tried to persuade these persons that their interpretation cannot be what President Benson intended, because both he and his predecessors in that sacred office, and all of the General Authorities, have faithfully filed their income-tax returns and paid the taxes required by law. The servants of God are under the Master's commands to follow him and to be examples to the flock (1 Timothy 4:12; 1 Peter 5:3). We should interpret their words in the light of their walk. To wrest the words of a prophet to support a private agenda, political or financial or otherwise, is to try to manipulate the prophet, not to follow him."

Dallin H Oaks "Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall"
President Harold B. Lee at the October 1972 general conference instructed:

“Now there is another danger that confronts us. There seem to be those among us who are as wolves among the flock, trying to lead some who are weak and unwary among Church members, according to reports that have reached us, who are taking the law into their own hands by refusing to pay their income tax because they have some political disagreement with constituted authorities.” (Ensign, January 1973, p. 106.)

In the April 1973 Priesthood Bulletin the Church reaffirmed its position against those “who claim Church membership … making it appear as though their opposition to Federal tax laws is Church sponsored” by referring to President Lee’s aforementioned conference admonition and concluded with the following instructions to Church leaders:

“We ask priesthood leaders to be on guard against such persons. They are not to be invited to speak in priesthood or sacrament meetings, firesides, or other Church meetings in attempting to spread their propaganda. Priesthood leaders should also teach the necessity of abiding the law according to the revelations.

“The Lord has said:

“ ‘Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.

“ ‘Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.’ ” (D&C 58:21–22.)
“Policies and Announcements,” Ensign, Mar. 1994, 80

Income Taxes

A member who refuses to file a tax return, to pay required income taxes, or to comply with a final judgment in a tax case is in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the Church. Such a member may be ineligible for a temple recommend and should not be called to a position of principal responsibility in the Church. A member who is convicted of willfully violating tax laws should be the subject of Church discipline to the extent warranted by the circumstances.

User avatar
patriotsaint
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1459

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by patriotsaint »

Checkmate. Excellent post Mark.

User avatar
AussieOi
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6137
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by AussieOi »

yeah, stop quoting them directly...you're twisting their words

User avatar
patriotsaint
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1459

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by patriotsaint »

AussieOi wrote:yeah, stop quoting them directly...you're twisting their words

Yeah, because direct quotes can't be taken out of context or applied incorrectly :roll:

Like
Member
Posts: 2358

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by Like »

Mark wrote:
“Policies and Announcements,” Ensign, Mar. 1994, 80

Income Taxes

A member who refuses to file a tax return, to pay required income taxes, or to comply with a final judgment in a tax case is in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the Church. Such a member may be ineligible for a temple recommend and should not be called to a position of principal responsibility in the Church. A member who is convicted of willfully violating tax laws should be the subject of Church discipline to the extent warranted by the circumstances.
The whole quote reads:
Income Taxes
Church members in any nation are obligated by the twelfth article of faith to obey the tax laws of that nation (see also D&C 134:5). If a member disapproves of tax laws, he may attempt to have them changed by legislation or constitutional amendment, or, if he has a well-founded legal objection, he may challenge them in the courts.

A member who refuses to file a tax return, to pay required income taxes, or to comply with a final judgment in a tax case is in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the Church. Such a member may be ineligible for a temple recommend and should not be called to a position of principal responsibility in the Church. A member who is convicted of willfully violating tax laws should be the subject of Church discipline to the extent warranted by the circumstances.
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

User avatar
Wiikwajio

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by Wiikwajio »

Mark wrote: “Policies and Announcements,” Ensign, Mar. 1994, 80

Income Taxes

A member who refuses to file a tax return, to pay required income taxes, or to comply with a final judgment in a tax case is in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the Church. Such a member may be ineligible for a temple recommend and should not be called to a position of principal responsibility in the Church. A member who is convicted of willfully violating tax laws should be the subject of Church discipline to the extent warranted by the circumstances.

You seem to have left a bit of the statement off:
Elder Oaks
America’s Freedom Festival at Provo, Marriott Center, July 3, 1994

There is nothing inappropriate in taking political action to reduce taxes or in pursuing well-founded court challenges to a particular application of the tax laws. In their 1993 statement, the Church leaders declared:

If a member disapproves of tax laws, he may attempt to have them changed by legislation or constitutional amendment, or, if he has a well-founded legal objection, he may challenge them in the courts.

I have a well-founded legal objection so I may challenge them is the courts. Or are you saying that the First Presidency is wrong?

The IRS has informed me in writing that I am not required to file a 1040. You continually ignore this fact. My attorney has informed me that I am not required to file and have the right to believe the letter the IRS sent to me telling me I am not required to file.

I am sorry that so many people are so uneducated on these subject to be unable to form a well-founded legal objection. You know, those that have to be commanded in all things and only follow the popular principles.

I have such a well-founded legal argument that lawyers come to me to learn how. I have never been indicted. I have never been audited. I have never had a problem that could not be taken care of by a few phone calls or a letter or two.

I base most of my arguments on the RFRA.

The RFRA was passed after the Supreme Court went against decades of their own rulings and decided in a case called SMITH, that the First Amendments did not protect individual people the way it had in the past and removed the compelling government interest test and the least restrictive test on laws of "general applicability." Congress got ticked off and passed the RFRA almost unanimously. It was 100% supported by the Church and Elder Oaks was SENT to Congress to testify in favor of it. The reason everyone got so concerned is because if the government passed a law that said something like: "People cannot wear underwear," then that would be a law of general applicability maybe not intended to harm a religion but it would harm LDS temple goers and we all know why even if it was not meant to harm LDS but only to stop lice infestations. The ruling was about the Indians using Peyote in religious ceremonies in Oregon like they have done since before the White man came. It obviously infringed upon their religion as much as a law that said you cannot wear underwear would infringe upon our religion.

Here is what the RFRA requires of the government:

TITLE 42 - THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELFARE
CHAPTER 21B - RELIGIOUS FREEDOM RESTORATION
Sec. 2000bb-1. Free exercise of religion protected

-STATUTE-
(a) In general
Government shall not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability, except as provided in subsection (b) of this section.
(b) Exception
Government may substantially burden a person's exercise of religion only if it demonstrates that application of the burden to the person -
(1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and
(2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.
(c) Judicial relief
A person whose religious exercise has been burdened in violation of this section may assert that violation as a claim or defense in a judicial proceeding and obtain appropriate relief against a government. Standing to assert a claim or defense under this section shall be governed by the general rules of standing under article III of the Constitution.

Now more history and law.

In order to evade taxes or be convicted of failing to file a tax return a person must act willfully. That is NOT the case in most laws. For example if you run a red light the Cop does not have to prove you did it willfully. He just has to prove you did it. But some laws are very complex and so Congress added the word "willfully" as a part of some laws as the a requirement necessary to break the law. The Internal Revenue Code is complex so they added this requirement. Consider this in comparison on a Red Light. If you ran the Red Light because it was new and the sun was in your eyes and your passenger sneezed and spilled his coffee on you and you would have stopped if that had not occurred then you did not willfully run the red light so you could not be convicted of "Willfully running the red light."

So if you do not file a return or pay a tax because you do not believe you are required to do so then you did not violate the law. (personally to me it is impossible for anyone to have a known legal duty to file or pay because the CODE is so complex nobody knows if they are required to file or not but that is my belief so it does not matter here).

The #1 most important case on tax evasion is Cheek. All IRS cases that win ALWAYS use what is called the Cheek defense. Here are three quotes from Cheek concerning the willfulness issue.

Quote:
[T]he standard for the statutory willfulness requirement is the “voluntary, intentional violation of a known legal duty.” Cheek v. U.S. 498 U.S. 192, 201

Willfulness, as construed by our prior decisions in criminal tax cases, requires the Government to prove that the law imposed a duty on the defendant, that the defendant knew of this duty, and that he voluntarily and intentionally violated that duty. Cheek v. U.S. 498 U.S. 192, 201,

In this case, if Cheek asserted that he truly believed that the Internal Revenue Code did not purport to treat wages as income, and the jury believed him, the Government would not have carried its burden to prove willfulness, however unreasonable a court might deem such a belief. Cheek v. U.S. 498 U.S. 192, 202, 111 S.Ct. 604, 611 (U.S.Ill.,1991)

So here is the question: If a person believes that the Internal Revenue Code creates a substantial burden upon their religious exercise which the RFRA does not allow unless the two exceptions are met by the governemnt, then how can a person act willfully to evade the law until he knows if the law passes the RFRA test?

That RFRA test is the most difficult test known at law. The government is expected to lose according to the Supreme Court. Here is that test as explained by the Supreme Court:

Quote:
Requiring [the government] to demonstrate a compelling interest and show that it has adopted the least restrictive means of achieving that interest is the most demanding test known to constitutional law. If “ ‘compelling interest’ really means what it says ..., many laws will not meet the test.... [The test] would open the prospect of constitutionally required religious exemptions from civic obligations of almost every conceivable kind.” Id., at 888, 110 S.Ct., at 1605. Laws valid under Smith would fall under RFRA without regard to whether they had the object of stifling or punishing free exercise. We make these observations not to reargue the position of the majority in Smith but to illustrate the substantive alteration of its holding attempted by RFRA. Even assuming RFRA would be interpreted in effect to mandate some lesser test, say, one equivalent to intermediate scrutiny, the statute nevertheless would require searching judicial scrutiny of ... law with the attendant likelihood of invalidation. City of Boerne v. Flores 521 U.S. 507, 534, 117 S.Ct. 2157, 2171 (U.S.Tex.,1997)

Quote:
As the Court explained, "RFRA requires the Government to demonstrate that the compelling interest test is satisfied through application of the challenged law ‘to the person'-the particular claimant whose sincere exercise of religion is being substantially burdened." A reviewing court must therefore "scrutinize the asserted harm of granting specific exemptions to particular religious claimants." U.S. v. Adeyemo 2008 WL 928546, 11 (N.D.Cal. 2008)

Note that that last case was in 2008 AD. So the RFRA is being applied to the Federal Government TODAY!

The Supreme Court has confirmed that the RFRA is applicable to the Federal Government. They covered the issue very well in Gonzales v. O Centro Espirita Beneficente Uniao do Vegetal 546 U.S. 418, in 2006. You can read that whole case on line. Here is the Wiki article on it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzales_v ... do_Vegetal

That was a case where a church "UDV" was importing a Schedule I controlled substance (a hallucinogenic) which would normally be a violation of 21 U.S.C. section 801 et seq., The Supreme Court ruled that UDV members could not be convicted of doing so and were instead, allowed to continue to import and use a Schedule I controlled substance. They commit and committed no crime because of the RFRA requirements. UDV could not commit a crime but could only practice their religious beliefs which were, because of the RFRA mandate, 100% legal. The Supreme Court was very clear that the government “failed to demonstrate, at the preliminary injunction stage” a compelling government interest and never even got into the least restrictive clause.

However, there is no preliminary injunction stage in this case I am working on. The time when the government substantially burdened their religious exercise was when they were arrested. Before that they had no reason to believe they would be arrested any more than the UDV members had to believe it. These folks were only practicing their religion and refusing to practice the Religion of Marxism. For example since they knew that they did not know what was the truth about the code since it is so complex they could not commit perjury and say they KNEW they were required to file or that they were even "taxpayers." (It is FAR MORE complex than this)

So you are now on a jury. Assume for arguments sake that the government proved to you that the Internal Revenue Code is a compelling government interest. The government proves to you that the way they are enforcing the tax laws are the least restrictive way it can be done.

You believe, However that the Defendants believed that they were protected by the RFRA because the government had not YET made those demonstrations and they were only doing what they believed was the right thing to do.

Are the Defendants guilty of WILLFULLY evading the tax?

Why?

Why not?

User avatar
Wiikwajio

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by Wiikwajio »

patriotsaint wrote:Checkmate. Excellent post Mark.
Except that I can still move my King and have nearly every one of my pieces on the board. See above concerning the RFRA. Checkmate? By Mark? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do you work for the IRS or do you just lend aid and encouragement to the 2nd plank of the Communist Manifesto. I am sorry you seem to be so close to apostasy.

User avatar
Mark
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6929

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by Mark »

The IRS has informed me in writing that I am not required to file a 1040. You continually ignore this fact. My attorney has informed me that I am not required to file and have the right to believe the letter the IRS sent to me telling me I am not required to file.

I am sorry that so many people are so uneducated on these subject to be unable to form a well-founded legal objection. You know, those that have to be commanded in all things and only follow the popular principles.

I have such a well-founded legal argument that lawyers come to me to learn how. I have never been indicted. I have never been audited. I have never had a problem that could not be taken care of by a few phone calls or a letter or two.

Okay Chris put up or shut up. Lets see that letter of yours. I have never heard of anyone anywhere who has such a letter. You are putting people at risk by encouraging the average Joe to stop filing a return and paying federal income taxes. The federal prisons are full of people just like you who have bragged for years about not filing and paying income taxes. You think you are smarter than them all. Time will tell. However to most it is not worth the price that would be paid if the IRS decided to prosecute them. You don't care about those individuals. Are you going to visit them in prison and take care of their families while they sit in a prison cell wondering why they are doing time after listening to Chris Hansen? Hardly. You are playing with fire and will eventually get burned. You think you have outsmarted the whore. Don't be so sure pal. Pride cometh before the fall. The wheels grind slowly but effeciently. If they wanted to make an example of you they would do so. They are in control. You are just playing russian roulette imo. I will follow the safety of the Brethrens admonitions.

User avatar
Col. Flagg
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 16961
Location: Utah County

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by Col. Flagg »

Mark wrote:
The IRS has informed me in writing that I am not required to file a 1040. You continually ignore this fact. My attorney has informed me that I am not required to file and have the right to believe the letter the IRS sent to me telling me I am not required to file.

I am sorry that so many people are so uneducated on these subject to be unable to form a well-founded legal objection. You know, those that have to be commanded in all things and only follow the popular principles.

I have such a well-founded legal argument that lawyers come to me to learn how. I have never been indicted. I have never been audited. I have never had a problem that could not be taken care of by a few phone calls or a letter or two.

Okay Chris put up or shut up. Lets see that letter of yours. I have never heard of anyone anywhere who has such a letter. You are putting people at risk by encouraging the average Joe to stop filing a return and paying federal income taxes. The federal prisons are full of people just like you who have bragged for years about not filing and paying income taxes. You think you are smarter than them all. Time will tell. However to most it is not worth the price that would be paid if the IRS decided to prosecute them. You don't care about those individuals. Are you going to visit them in prison and take care of their families while they sit in a prison cell wondering why they are doing time after listening to Chris Hansen? Hardly. You are playing with fire and will eventually get burned. You think you have outsmarted the whore. Don't be so sure pal. Pride cometh before the fall. The wheels grind slowly but effeciently. If they wanted to make an example of you they would do so. They are in control. You are just playing russian roulette imo. I will follow the safety of the Brethrens admonitions.
I look at it this way... who has more power... the IRS or Chris Hansen? Personally, I'd rather pay my income taxes (no matter how unconstitutional, immoral or illegal) than spend time in jail. What good are you to your family and how do you expect to take care of them if you are behind bars because you refuse to play by the LDG's rules? How would this affect your life? Your career? Your wife/children? Presidents' Hinckley and Monson paid/pay their income tax... that's good enough for me. I admire your spunk and courage in fighting these criminals Chris, but is your personal/family cost worth it? Don't think for a second that the Lord will hold you accountable because you paid an income tax to men who had the power to ruin your life if you did not. There are other battles we can fight and take on that will make more of a difference in the end than taking on an entity like the IRS. For me personally, exposing the 'Fed' and IRS for what and who they are is what's important... knowledge is power and when you're equipped with knowledge and informed, you can make informed decisions for you and your family's future.

User avatar
patriotsaint
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1459

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by patriotsaint »

Wiikwajio wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:Checkmate. Excellent post Mark.
Except that I can still move my King and have nearly every one of my pieces on the board. See above concerning the RFRA. Checkmate? By Mark? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do you work for the IRS or do you just lend aid and encouragement to the 2nd plank of the Communist Manifesto. I am sorry you seem to be so close to apostasy.
Now you're changing the argument. Nobody here said that you can't challenge the IRS in court or be politically active to promote a constitutional ammendment regarding the income tax.

What we are calling you out on is your ludicrous claim that people who do file their taxes or have a SSN are somehow doing wrong. If you want to discuss a different subject that's fine, but let's finish this one first.

Your assertions are in direct condradiction to what modern prophets have taught. Mark easily exposed your doctrine as nothing more than apostate extremism. Hopefully the moderators will see that you basically mock what the prophets have taught regarding the income tax and take out their ban hammers. We certainly don't need extremists leading the gullible away with false doctrine.

User avatar
Wiikwajio

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by Wiikwajio »

patriotsaint wrote:
Wiikwajio wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:Checkmate. Excellent post Mark.
Except that I can still move my King and have nearly every one of my pieces on the board. See above concerning the RFRA. Checkmate? By Mark? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do you work for the IRS or do you just lend aid and encouragement to the 2nd plank of the Communist Manifesto. I am sorry you seem to be so close to apostasy.
Now you're changing the argument. Nobody here said that you can't challenge the IRS in court or be politically active to promote a constitutional ammendment regarding the income tax.

What we are calling you out on is your ludicrous claim that people who do file their taxes or have a SSN are somehow doing wrong. If you want to discuss a different subject that's fine, but let's finish this one first.

Your assertions are in direct condradiction to what modern prophets have taught. Mark easily exposed your doctrine as nothing more than apostate extremism. Hopefully the moderators will see that you basically mock what the prophets have taught regarding the income tax and take out their ban hammers. We certainly don't need extremists leading the gullible away with false doctrine.
Before I begin I will point out that you have personally attacked me. You say I mack the prophets when I quote them time and again. You call me apostate. You call me a purveyor of false doctrine. Those are personal attacks and I am responding with attacks, not upon you personally because I do not know you, but upon the type of lifestyle you have chosen.

If you can do something and you do not do it then you have your reward. The "popular principles" are what the prophet Benson called it. And that is what I have said from the beginning. Your kind want to take the easy road and believe you will be blessed for it when the prophets have said time and again you will not be so blessed as those that take the high hard road of liberty. In doing so it is you that reject the teachings of the prophet and lead the weak into your Satanically influenced voluntary slavery lifestyle of popular only principles.

The prophets directed us what we need to do by going through the legislative process (naturally you have not done so, but I have) or going through the courts (naturally you have not done so because you are not vigilant on this subject, but I have) or even administratively (the first step to any court case) which naturally you have not even attempted whereas I have been successful at it.

Would you be blessed for doing less in any other area of the gospel that is important? Name one. Yet you believe that in doing nothing you are covered. Well the parable of the slothful servant comes right up and slaps your false teachings in the face and Benson said it slaps such beliefs in the face. If it is not a battle then you have no reward. Or are you saying that Harry Reid was right and Benson was leading people astray? Is that it? are you in agreement with Harry Reid?

I NEVER recommend that people just stop being Socialists. I recommend they do the research and learn the truth because if you do not you are nothing but a prisoner/victim waiting to happen. I listened to the counsel of the prophets and when my friends that did not listen were in court and in prison I never had a problem. I followed their counsel to have a well defined well thought out well researched legal case and because I did I never had to go to court. I won administratively. Why did the prophets not tell people they could win administratively? Because only a person that had a well-foiunded legal objection would know what to do. Idiots need not be involve because it was too dangerous. The prophet's counsel was brilliant because if sacred off the weak and uneducated and undedicated (you know the slothful milk drinkers) while encouraging those of us that were led by the Spirit and refused to sit on the sidelines appeasing the enemy. We did not wait to be "commanded in all things," as we used our own free will, the counsel of the prophets, and the Spirit of the Lord as guidelines and entered the battle "in a good cause" and brought to pass much righteousness in freedom's cause.

I did this while you did nothing to stop being a voluntary tithe payer to Marxism. I succeeded while you wrapped chains around the necks of your children and called it being obedient.

Can you name another principle of the Gospel where you will be exalted for failure to learn and failure to be a warrior. You cannot. There are none. The prophets warned us so that we did not go unprepared and unarmed into this battle but they never said, "Do not go into the battle." They told us to risk even our lives if necessary to do EXACTLY what I have been able to do because I LISTENED to McKay and Benson and Grant and you did not. You pooh poohed them and looked to the popular principles to save you. I bet you never even took the time to fervently pray about what the prophets meant by having a well-founded legal objection if you wanted to fight for you liberty. I did and I was blessed and freed. In fact with Benson's talk the leadership told you that if you did not go into the battle you would have a lesser reward than those people that don't have to be commanded in all things. The fight against the Socialism that enslaves you because you voluntarily place those chains, not only places them on your own neck but on the necks of your children. And you tolerate it and justify it and lend aid and sympathy to those false isms.
Sometimes the Lord hopefully waits on his children to act on their own, and when they do not, they lose the greater prize, and the Lord will either drop the entire matter and let them suffer the consequences or else he will have to spell it out in greater detail. Usually, I fear, the more he has to spell it out, the smaller is our reward.
So go ahead and sit on the fence with your lukewarm beliefs and dedications and "popular principles" and leave the fight against Marxism and false isms to those of us that are willing to "Devote our time, means, and life if necessary, to hold inviolate those laws which will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life" and learn enough so that we can have ability to live free of the chains of which you are so proud.

Eternal principles DO NOT CHANGE!

Go ahead and live those popular principles and be slothful in the liberty battle. You will indeed have your reward and you are welcome to it. I do not want such a booby prize award and I never have wanted it. To me the reward you seek and path you travel is Satanic or at least like failing to eat from the tree of knowledge. I cannot endure the infamy and guilt of resigning succeeding generations to that wretchedness that inevitably await all those that embrace voluntary slavery as you have done and defend and justify.

Let us refer to: A Declaration by the Representatives of the United Colonies of North-America, Now Met in Congress at Philadelphia, Setting Forth the Causes and Necessity of Their Taking Up Arms. In this document Thomas Jefferson, writing for the Congress, said:
“We are reduced to the alternative of chusing an unconditional submission to the tyranny of irritated ministers, or resistance by force. – The latter is our choice. – We have counted the cost of this contest, and find nothing so dreadful as voluntary slavery. – Honour, justice, and humanity, forbid us tamely to surrender that freedom which we received from our gallant ancestors, and which our innocent posterity have a right to receive from us. We cannot endure the infamy and guilt of resigning succeeding generations to that wretchedness which inevitably awaits them, if we basely entail hereditary bondage upon them.”

The Founding Fathers all had their temple work done for them and they were tax rebels and traitors and violators of the 12th Article of Faith but totally embraced the law of eternal vigilance and liberty. Franklin was a serial adulterer and yet was made a High Priest before many of the other Founders. I have followed their God Blessed and inspired examples. You reject them and call me apostate. We shall see who is right but no matter what I will be thankful I am not in the same place you will be. I don't get along well with voluntary slaves. I want to be with men that were willing to die for the principles of liberty not tories.
Well, there were many businessmen who went along with Hitler because it supposedly helped their business. They lost everything. Many of us are here today because our forefathers loved truth enough that they fought at Valley Forge or crossed the plains in spite of the price it cost them or their families. We had better take our small pain now than our greater loss later. There were souls who wished afterwards that they had stood and fought with Washington and the founding fathers, but they waited too long - they passed up eternal glory. There has never been a greater time than now to stand up against entrenched evil.
If you are an example of what the Celestial kingdom is to be filled with then I have no desire to be with such weak voluntary slaves that "waited too long - they passed up eternal glory." I have no desire to be with men that can "endure the infamy and guilt." You have your reward with your "popular principles" and I want no part of such a timid slavery tolerating reward.

Live Free of Die is my battle cry. What is yours? And remember it is by your fruit, not your diatribes you shall be known.

User avatar
skmo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4495

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by skmo »

While this is certainly not my battle cry, I believe it's a quote which is apropos to this discussion:

Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig. - Robert Heinlein

User avatar
Wiikwajio

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by Wiikwajio »

Col. Flagg wrote: Okay Chris put up or shut up. Lets see that letter of yours. I have never heard of anyone anywhere who has such a letter. You are putting people at risk by encouraging the average Joe to stop filing a return and paying federal income taxes. The federal prisons are full of people just like you who have bragged for years about not filing and paying income taxes. You think you are smarter than them all. Time will tell. However to most it is not worth the price that would be paid if the IRS decided to prosecute them. You don't care about those individuals. Are you going to visit them in prison and take care of their families while they sit in a prison cell wondering why they are doing time after listening to Chris Hansen? Hardly. You are playing with fire and will eventually get burned. You think you have outsmarted the whore. Don't be so sure pal. Pride cometh before the fall. The wheels grind slowly but effeciently. If they wanted to make an example of you they would do so. They are in control. You are just playing russian roulette imo. I will follow the safety of the Brethrens admonitions.
I look at it this way... who has more power... the IRS or Chris Hansen? Personally, I'd rather pay my income taxes (no matter how unconstitutional, immoral or illegal) than spend time in jail. What good are you to your family and how do you expect to take care of them if you are behind bars because you refuse to play by the LDG's rules? How would this affect your life? Your career? Your wife/children? Presidents' Hinckley and Monson paid/pay their income tax... that's good enough for me. I admire your spunk and courage in fighting these criminals Chris, but is your personal/family cost worth it? Don't think for a second that the Lord will hold you accountable because you paid an income tax to men who had the power to ruin your life if you did not. There are other battles we can fight and take on that will make more of a difference in the end than taking on an entity like the IRS. For me personally, exposing the 'Fed' and IRS for what and who they are is what's important... knowledge is power and when you're equipped with knowledge and informed, you can make informed decisions for you and your family's future.[/quote]

I look at it this way. Who has more power. God or the IRS?

What happened to Helmuth_Hübener. Did he think he was more powerful than Hitler? Why did he defy his Nazi Branch President that excommunicated him? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_Hübener

I believe, as stated by Benjamin Franklin, “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

You seem to believe that this statement is in error. Why?

No wonder you are a voluntary slave/taxpayer. Who has more power? The Secretary of State or me. I beat him several times. Who has more power? The district court or me? I got the District Court overturned by the Nevada Supreme Court. Who has more power? The METRO Cops or me? We are in Federal Court right now against these criminals. I am not afraid to fight them. Who has more power, The justice court or me? I got their false conviction of me overturned by the District Court. Who has more power? The Registrar of Voters or me? I got my son the right to vote without a Social Security Number after he was refused. We won in court. Who has more power the Nevada Department of Motor Vehicles or me? I forced the DMV to let us petition after I was threatened with arrest MANY times and got that confirmed by both the District Court and the Nevada Supreme Court. And this is a VERY VERY short list. You see some people see Goliath and are unafraid because they know God is with them and some people fail to trust God and fear the giants.

Which one are you?

You want to see that letter of mine? Why would I show it to you? (3 Ne. 14: 6)

Should I trust you that you would not give it to the IRS or DoJ so that they can prepare for it if they wanted to come after me because I make too much noise and put a crimp in their criminal enterprise? I got it well over 10 years ago so they do not have ready access to it any more. My Attorney has told me that I should no longer send it out as I used to because it could put me in jeopardy. Would you have me go against the advice of my attorney so you can satisfy your curiosity? But I will tell you what. You put up or shut up. You send a letter to Joel F. Hansen, Attorney at law, at:1835 Village Center Circle Las Vegas, Nevada 89134. http://bulldogattorney.com/irs-indictment.html

You include a check for $100.00 (because lawyers don't work for free) and my Attorney will send you a letter confirming that I have such a letter and that I have been advised by him that I am indeed not required to file a 1040 return. Or did you want something for nothing?

You claim:
Col. Flagg wrote:The federal prisons are full of people just like you who have bragged for years about not filing and paying income taxes.
Can you name one person in prison that did not filed in 32 years? Just one. Not all those you claim fill the prisons. JUST ONE that has not filed in 32 years before he was arrested and convicted. Mosiah 13: 23 I have never even been charged.

Do you know of a single IRS case where the RFRA was used and makes the claims that Marxism is an established religion of the USA let alone where the individual was convicted of a crime? Of course you don't. Yet you claim the prisons are FULL of people like me. Mosiah 13: 23

Do you know of a single person in prison that has combined the well-founded RFRA arguments with the FRN/dollar arguments that is in prison? JUST ONE?! Mosiah 13: 23

So the federal prisons are NOT full of people just like me. They are full of people that were not as well prepared or blessed as I have been. They are full of morons that filed returns and in doing so admitted they were liable taxpayers and then did not pay what they told the IRS they owed. They are filled with people that create trusts or lie on forms under penalty of perjury. They are filled with Mormons that don't claim ALL their wages and then commit perjury on the 1040 saying they have. How many Mormons do you know that "cheat" on "their taxes" by not claiming baby sitting money or lawn care money or the little extra they got at a garage sale etc.? Every one of them committed a felony. I never have committed a tax felony but most Mormons have.

You lump me together with people that are nothing like me. Mosiah 13: 23. Most of the people I know that went to prison REFUSED to use my RFRA arguments. Of course my RFRA argument works far better for LDS because of the many statements by the prophets on Marxism and other false isms.

My friend just ended up in prison after getting an 8/4 hung jury in the first trial. He refused to use the religious arguments. I don not know why. But then he was not LDS.

Another friend used the religious arguments AFTER it was nearly too late and after he was deceived by Irwin Schiff and when the judge decided to consider dismissing the whole case because of MY RFRA arguments the IRS dropped 3 felonies and a 300,000 fine to no fines down to a misdemeanor. The lawyers couldn't believe it. He took the misdemeanor instead of risking the felonies. I was to testify in that trial. He was not LDS and his religious arguments were, therefore, far less effective than a well educated Latter-day Saints arguments would be. And yet he got only a misdemeanor. And his arguments were WEAK compared to mine and my history.

So you go ahead and tell me all the things I have done wrong (Mosiah 13: 23) without knowing enough about me or the RFRA or the dollar issues or the establishment clause issues to fill a tea cup. Go ahead and bear false witness against me and claim that people like me fill the prisons.

Just tell me what a dollar is. Tell me what a taxable source is. Tell me what law requires me to file. You cannot.

None of my children nor my wife files or pays and not one of us has even been threatened with prosecution and I/we have been on the front page of newspapers telling the world we don't file. I am not hiding. I have even confronted DoJ agents in Court around this country and have given them my book. http://www.sovereignfellowship.com/

Name another man that is not in prison that has confronted DoJ agents as I have while not filing for decades.

THIRTY-TWO Years, Col. Flagg. I am not like anyone. Just like you say: "I have never heard of anyone anywhere who has such a letter." And yet I have them. I am unique, because you see, when I was a boy I had been taught by my mother, that if I did not doubt, God would deliver me (Alma 56: 47-48) and that even weak little boys could defeat evil giants because God fights our battles if we will but trust God and enter the battle believing He will protect you. I was taught to have faith in God and to do what is right.

I was taught that the rag tag Rebels of America could defeat the mighty British because God fought for liberty and protected those that fought for liberty. I was taught to believe in miracles. I was taught that if you disapproved of the Republican and Democratic twin parties that you went out and started your own party so you did not have to settle for the lesser of twin evils. And then I did it. I was taught than when a local church leader has a Marxist like Harry Reid coming to speak in Church and that same local leader does not offer other candidates to speak and give them equal time that such a local leader needs to be challenged.A nd then I did it.I was taught that you don't just give up to tyranny no matter who the tyrant is. And then I did it. I was taught to do what is right and let the consequences follow. I lived my life believing those things were true and discovered that they are true and that you can defeat the giants. And then I did it. I was taught that I must not wait to be commanded in all things but to pick up the sword of truth and fight against ALL forms of tyranny.And then I did it.

What were you taught? And what did you do with that knowledge?

What good was Alma to his family? What good was john Taylor to his many wives and children while being chased all over Utah by Federal Marshals? What good was Christ to His family while He hung on the cross? What good was Joseph Smith to his family when he was shot while in jail on false charges? Shall go on? Shall I list what happened to the signers of the Declaration of Independence?

How can you even ask such questions about why I stand up against evil. The question is: Why don't you?

User avatar
Wiikwajio

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by Wiikwajio »

skmo wrote:While this is certainly not my battle cry, I believe it's a quote which is apropos to this discussion:

Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig. - Robert Heinlein
If I were you I would put that on my grave so that people can marvel. Just think of all the things that such a wonderful statement would do to inspire men to great heights. :lol:

User avatar
AussieOi
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6137
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by AussieOi »

patriotsaint wrote:
AussieOi wrote:yeah, stop quoting them directly...you're twisting their words

Yeah, because direct quotes can't be taken out of context or applied incorrectly :roll:

umm, actually i was being sarcastic

one thing i can't argue with WiikCHH is that he does embarass us with exactly what they said most of the time
its OUR interpretation of what they didn't say that is the sticky point

User avatar
AussieOi
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6137
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by AussieOi »

patriotsaint wrote:
Wiikwajio wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:Checkmate. Excellent post Mark.
Except that I can still move my King and have nearly every one of my pieces on the board. See above concerning the RFRA. Checkmate? By Mark? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do you work for the IRS or do you just lend aid and encouragement to the 2nd plank of the Communist Manifesto. I am sorry you seem to be so close to apostasy.
What we are calling you out on is your ludicrous claim that people who do file their taxes or have a SSN are somehow doing wrong. .

the problem is that we can't complain against the system, against say US foreign policy, if you willingly fund it, knowing that you dont_actually_have to

User avatar
patriotsaint
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1459

Re: Harry Reid Firesides ordered by Nevada's LDS Regional Re

Post by patriotsaint »

Wiikwajio wrote: How can you even ask such questions about why I stand up against evil. The question is: Why don't you?
Because the prophets have told us to file income taxes. It is what the Church teaches, period. You aren't standing up to evil, you are disobeying the counsel of the prophets.......and by disobeying what the prophets teach you are disobeying the Lord. You're like Saul who wanted to sacrifice animals because he thought that was a wonderful thing to do, but the Lord had simply asked for obedience. Saul paid the price for his arrogance and presumption.....and eventually you will too if you continue on this path. Was animal sacrifice wrong in and of itself? No, but it was his disobedience that was wrong. In your case, fighting a corrupt government isn't wrong.....until you disobey the prophets in order to further that fight.

Why don't you write Elder Oaks a letter and see what kind of response you get? Oh that's right......you somehow believe that the Spirit has told you to do something in direct contradiction to the teachings and example of the prophets. That's not the way things work in the kingdom of God. So if a revelation does not come from God directly contradicting those authorized to speak for Him on earth......where does it come from?
Last edited by patriotsaint on April 10th, 2010, 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Locked