Single Most Important Political Issue/Obstacle?

[Rosabellacaptain of 1,000]

Is your point that it must be outside of the of the LDS Religion? I would then ask Why? I would say testifying of the Restored Gospel is the best way to bring truth to this country.

Yes. It absolutely must be.....unless the complete government is destroyed or the leaders of the church call for combination of church and government.....at which point the complete government is already destroyed or there's about to be a war between the two.

Truth of what? The restored gospel? How is it the founders can establish a government based on righteous principles....all without the restored gospel? Is then the restored gospel a fundamental requirement? I don't think so. Then what must the message be if its not the restored gospel?

The reason the Lord was able to work through the Founding Fathers is that they were doing the best they could with all the truth that had been revealed up until that point. They believed in God and Christ. Now we have no excuse to ignore the additional truth of the Restored Gospel. That does not mean we can not work with others not of our Faith, but it does mean that we need to be holding up the whole Gospel as the standard.

The point of this thread....I believe....is to try and think through a course of action - What are the major hurdles? What can we then do about them?.....with the "political arena" qualifier. Obviously our founding fathers were inspired and guided and established this nation on righteous principles that pre-date the restored gospel. So obviously....preaching the restored gospel is not the solution for the question posed on this thread. Is it good? Of course. Is it helpful? Of course. Is it a requirement? History says no.

Is it a requirement? History says no.

Well the scriptures say YES and so do the Prophets. We are shown story after story of the Gospel being preached as the means to saving civilization and effecting political change. When they did not repent they were destroyed. That to me is history, the history that was saved for us today that Lord wanted us to have.

If we have strayed from this.......What is the single most important "Political" issue/obstacle keeping us from returning to our roots?

From the scriptures we are told Repentance.

The whole premise that a political solution can be found which ignores the Gospel of Jesus Christ is totally fallacious. That is my point. Our constitution and founding of this country was directly related to the belief in God and Jesus Christ. You cannot separate the two. Other than that we are relying on the arm of flesh and not the Lord. Prophets have all called the world to repentance and to believe in God, why is that not a valid solution for today? What is so different about us from all the rest of the civilizations that have existed in the past?

I tried to give some practical suggestions from my point of view because I was asked. So I have attempted to answer the question. I am sorry that my answers are not what people want to hear, but they are what I believe the scriptures are trying to tell us.

I think I may get off this hamster wheel unless I am asked for any more imput.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

For ME the first/next step is to elect a state legislature that will tell the Federal government NO! And we are seeing some signs of that even in the current legislature.

I'm with you, it is frustrating to see the state we are in and feel that something needs to be done, and not know what to do. Thing is, no one here can tell you what YOUR next step needs to be. Stand with God and you will always win (in whatever battle you choose to fight!)

OK so it starts with local politics and the people getting involved to see that men & women are elected that will tell the Federal Government NO! Excellent.

Now what are they supposed to say NO to? Unemployment loans, land use laws, FEMA or other Federal Agency involvement?

What is the core foundation upon which these decisions need to be based upon? Where is the dividing line between Federal, State, and local....authority/action/agencies?

What are they supposed to say NO! to? Any attempt by the Federal government to exercise authority not specifically delegated to it.
Not allowing the Federal government to use the welfare clause and/or the interstate commerce clause as a means to legislate on any and all things. (One of Bob Bennett's favorite tactics).

[JasonI am a nobody!]

For ME the first/next step is to elect a state legislature that will tell the Federal government NO! And we are seeing some signs of that even in the current legislature.

I'm with you, it is frustrating to see the state we are in and feel that something needs to be done, and not know what to do. Thing is, no one here can tell you what YOUR next step needs to be. Stand with God and you will always win (in whatever battle you choose to fight!)

OK so it starts with local politics and the people getting involved to see that men & women are elected that will tell the Federal Government NO! Excellent.

Now what are they supposed to say NO to? Unemployment loans, land use laws, FEMA or other Federal Agency involvement?

What is the core foundation upon which these decisions need to be based upon? Where is the dividing line between Federal, State, and local....authority/action/agencies?

What are they supposed to say NO! to? Any attempt by the Federal government to exercise authority not specifically delegated to it.
Not allowing the Federal government to use the welfare clause and/or the interstate commerce clause as a means to legislate on any and all things. (One of Bob Bennett's favorite tactics).

Well personally I would have the states say no to anything the fed does outside the scope of "common defense" - i.e. military, regulating interstate commerce, and Supreme court..........I.E. No medical, no DHS, no FEMA, no BLM, no FBI, no CIA, no social security, no to all the "departments", no IRS, no Federal Reserve, etc etc etc.

[JasonI am a nobody!]

Is your point that it must be outside of the of the LDS Religion? I would then ask Why? I would say testifying of the Restored Gospel is the best way to bring truth to this country.

Yes. It absolutely must be.....unless the complete government is destroyed or the leaders of the church call for combination of church and government.....at which point the complete government is already destroyed or there's about to be a war between the two.

Truth of what? The restored gospel? How is it the founders can establish a government based on righteous principles....all without the restored gospel? Is then the restored gospel a fundamental requirement? I don't think so. Then what must the message be if its not the restored gospel?

The reason the Lord was able to work through the Founding Fathers is that they were doing the best they could with all the truth that had been revealed up until that point. They believed in God and Christ. Now we have no excuse to ignore the additional truth of the Restored Gospel. That does not mean we can not work with others not of our Faith, but it does mean that we need to be holding up the whole Gospel as the standard.

The point of this thread....I believe....is to try and think through a course of action - What are the major hurdles? What can we then do about them?.....with the "political arena" qualifier. Obviously our founding fathers were inspired and guided and established this nation on righteous principles that pre-date the restored gospel. So obviously....preaching the restored gospel is not the solution for the question posed on this thread. Is it good? Of course. Is it helpful? Of course. Is it a requirement? History says no.

Is it a requirement? History says no.

Well the scriptures say YES and so do the Prophets. We are shown story after story of the Gospel being preached as the means to saving civilization and effecting political change. When they did not repent they were destroyed. That to me is history, the history that was saved for us today that Lord wanted us to have.

If we have strayed from this.......What is the single most important "Political" issue/obstacle keeping us from returning to our roots?

From the scriptures we are told Repentance.

The whole premise that a political solution can be found which ignores the Gospel of Jesus Christ is totally fallacious. That is my point. Our constitution and founding of this country was directly related to the belief in God and Jesus Christ. You cannot separate the two. Other than that we are relying on the arm of flesh and not the Lord. Prophets have all called the world to repentance and to believe in God, why is that not a valid solution for today? What is so different about us from all the rest of the civilizations that have existed in the past?

I tried to give some practical suggestions from my point of view because I was asked. So I have attempted to answer the question. I am sorry that my answers are not what people want to hear, but they are what I believe the scriptures are trying to tell us.

I think I may get off this hamster wheel unless I am asked for any more imput.

Hopefully you aren't offended....as that was definitely not the intention (at least mine). I suppose a general question begets a general answer.

If I might liken it to the New Age movement. While at the most general level....preaching the gospel and repentance are answers to the New Age problem.....or are they? Cannot people who are repenting (trying to do what's right) and who have the restored gospel (and the Spirit).....be beguiled by tactics of the New Age? If so how do you prevent it?

I would say - 1) Education - which you are very actively involved in; 2) ???? 3) ????

What if a New Age'r is running for office? You would vote against that person....also try to get the word out to others...maybe form groups or organizations to actively oppose the evil?

What if the person was a member of the church? Who on the surface espoused church doctrine but at times was a proponent of the new age spirituality? Who really by his/her works was in alignment with the New Age vs. LDS? Would you not try to expose the person for who they are? Especially to the friends, neighbors, and acquaintances that are falling for it hook, line, and sinker? Like the Mormon new age authors you've covered (exposed) on your web sites? Is it not the same with the NWO and the likes of Harry Reid, Glenn Beck, and Mitt Romney?

Back to the issue. You state a political solution that ignores the Gospel of Jesus Christ is totally fallacious. Yet I didn't say that. I said the founding fathers were able to craft a solid principled foundation without the reorganized church. They had the bible and believed in God as you have stated. Many in this country have the bible and still believe in God. I am stating that I believe we can return to our roots or craft a new solution without everyone being a member of the church.

There are principles, which everyone should/could recognize, that are the foundation for political solutions that don't include saving ordinances, or church membership. The same as one isn't required to be a member of the church to recognize new age teachings for what they are (like Constance)......and membership in the church definitely doesn't prevent people from being beguiled by new age teachings.....or falling for political solutions that are built upon sandy foundations (like government welfare)......despite the fact that they attend church regularly (including temple worship), do their home teaching/visiting teaching, fulfill their callings, do genealogy, etc etc etc.

So while you seem frustrated and upset with the response to your answers......how would you respond if you asked for advice on tactics for combating the new age movement.....and everyone answered you with - Repentance...and preach the gospel. Basically telling you all the time and effort you have put into your research and websites is for naught and you should be just focused on your visiting teaching, temple work, preaching the gospel, doing genealogy, etc etc etc.

Just some thoughts....and by no means trying to keep the hamster wheel spinning at full speed. May I say again....I greatly appreciate your efforts to expose the new age movement for what it is....works of darkness....and count myself very fortunate to have obtained the knowledge I now have....all due to your efforts! Thank you!

Best!

[clarkkent14captain of 1,000]

This conversation has me thinking a lot about the Political and Spiritual SC's. I want to make a documentary/documentaries to show how important the BOM message is to the world. It is a light in the darkness. That's what I want to do.

[Squallycaptain of 1,000]

I have enjoyed reading the comments on this thread.

I appreciate all that those who are doing some very specific things that go beyond teaching repentance are accomplishing. Thanks for your efforts and diligence!! Posting, teaching, leading...... Repentant people with no understanding of our affairs are not going to change much. It takes knowledge and understanding to move to the next step. At least it did for me.

As far as politically, I am of the opinion it take specifics, not just broad brushtroke gospel answers. And we must build on common beliefs to include good people from all religions in the cause of freedom.

Repentance is being taught within our church always, but this does not equate intelligent political people. Look at the members as a whole and the political knowledge held there. How many good repentant scripture reading members love the patriot act, foreign wars, torture?

[Squallycaptain of 1,000]

Repenting daily to the Lord does not automatically cause us to know economics, politics, history, constitutional studies, government and law etc. These things come through other efforts beside just praying to the Lord and asking forgiveness. I may be the most repentant person on the earth but still completely ignorant of the issues that we face as a nation and people.

Even good members who have read the book of mormon multiple times doesn't necessarily equate to seeing things as they really are.

IMHO It usually takes a greater understanding and awakening through other resources and seeking of what is going on, before the Book of Mormon can take on an increased meaning regarding our land and government. At least I can attest to this from my own personal experience.

[ndjilicaptain of 100]

I wonder if people like the revolutionary path rather than the missionary path. I'm going to go out of the BoM to the Bible and little story about a guy name Jonah. Land was told it would be destryed if people didnt repent, they did and the land was saved. Jonah was upset that it wasnt destroyed and got stuck in a big fish for 3 days until HE repented. All the education and political savvy wont save this country and world if it is used without God. The real God. I believe if people were doing what they were supposed to (ganing tesitmonies, reading scriptures, going to the temple and doing missionary work they would have the spirit with them and wouldn't be beguiled by the devil). I think putting God the Father back in charge of this country and electing leaders who are of faith in the true God ( not the feel good New Agey version) is a start but it wont get us anywhere without missionary work.

[JasonI am a nobody!]

I wonder if people like the revolutionary path rather than the missionary path. I'm going to go out of the BoM to the Bible and little story about a guy name Jonah. Land was told it would be destryed if people didnt repent, they did and the land was saved. Jonah was upset that it wasnt destroyed and got stuck in a big fish for 3 days until HE repented. All the education and political savvy wont save this country and world if it is used without God. The real God. I believe if people were doing what they were supposed to (ganing tesitmonies, reading scriptures, going to the temple and doing missionary work they would have the spirit with them and wouldn't be beguiled by the devil). I think putting God the Father back in charge of this country and electing leaders who are of faith in the true God ( not the feel good New Agey version) is a start but it wont get us anywhere without missionary work.

So you are saying Bella has wasted all her time studying the new age movement?

I haven't seen anyone try to take God out of the picture. EVERYONE is born with the light of Christ and can judge for themselves between good and evil. EVERYONE will also have an opportunity (or two) to accept or reject the saving ordinances (either in this life or the next).

We absolutely need to be involved in those areas. Also we've been commanded to be involved politically (search out and put in office righteous men, study the wars and politics of man, etc etc). If I'm reading comments correctly....what I see is complaints about people doing one thing while ignoring the other.....or that we should focus on one and ignore the other.

There is also a time and place for everything. Helaman went to war with Moroni....he didn't wander around trying to preach the gospel but led the 2000 righteous young men into battle. You also don't see Moroni spending his life doing missionary work. Everyone has a different calling......but someone has to fight the political battles (and wars) or you'll be trying to do missionary work (for what short time you have) in a concentration camp!

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

I wonder if people like the revolutionary path rather than the missionary path. I'm going to go out of the BoM to the Bible and little story about a guy name Jonah. Land was told it would be destryed if people didnt repent, they did and the land was saved. Jonah was upset that it wasnt destroyed and got stuck in a big fish for 3 days until HE repented. All the education and political savvy wont save this country and world if it is used without God. The real God. I believe if people were doing what they were supposed to (ganing tesitmonies, reading scriptures, going to the temple and doing missionary work they would have the spirit with them and wouldn't be beguiled by the devil). I think putting God the Father back in charge of this country and electing leaders who are of faith in the true God ( not the feel good New Agey version) is a start but it wont get us anywhere without missionary work.

Lol you have got the Jonah story a little bit confused there. Jonah did not get swallowed by the big fish for being angry that Ninevah did not get destroyed.

As far as the rest again, nothing that you say is wrong, but you are partitioning your life into spiritual|temporal, and not accepting that they are inseparably connected.

Most politics boils down to economic systems. There is an economic system that is acceptable to the Lord and that is in harmony with the Gospel, and there is one that is not. This is the problem that causes people to say that all that the prophets have spoken of regarding politics, economics and sound principles, people accuse them of speaking in areas that are "out of bounds", in much the same way that many members are angry with the church leadership for their invilvement regarding proposition 8. With Prop 8 it is pretty clearly spiritual related as well, but David O Mckay, Ezra Taft Benson, etc when they speak openly and plainly on political threats to our spiritual safety, they are ignored or accused of being a fallen prophet, or people feel they are just speaking their personal opinions.

Many here are saying "A bible, a bible, we have a bible and we need no more bible!" No one here is saying ignore your testimony, your temple work, your missionary work. But how is it that so many members of the church who do all those things are still completely supportive of MANY socialist doctrines which we have plainly been told are wrong? How can doing more missionary work be the answer when that is just going to result in more members who are going to now be under a greater condemnation due to the greater light that they have received?

This really is getting to be a hamster wheel. I'm out for a while.

[ndjilicaptain of 100]

Um the wars happened after people became wicked. Dude we arent saying dont learn. Yes we need to warn people but there is more to the BoM than the book of Ether and the wars. I dont see a problem with promoting righteousness. With adding missionary work to the conversation. I thought people were putting out different ideas so tell me what's wrong with that one. No one is saying to be stupid and not study the constitution but I think Bella was trying to say that we need to put God back in charge of the country. That's one thought. People have posted other great thoughts especially regarding the local sectors but the political needs to be balanced with the gospel. What;s wrong with adding that idea to the pot?


Sorry I'm pregnant and super sick and you people give me a headache I'm done!

It boils down to tell everyone that 9/11 was an inside job. The world is run by the illuminati and we need revolution. There that's what ya'll care about.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

I believe if people were doing what they were supposed to (ganing tesitmonies, reading scriptures, going to the temple and doing missionary work they would have the spirit with them and wouldn't be beguiled by the devil).

This was primarily what I was responding to: basically saying that doing these things and people will not be deceived. Sadly, there are plenty of examples that doing these things that you have listed is not sufficient? As I said, I am not saying don't do these things, I am saying these things alone are not sufficient. And as Jason has pointed out, the thread is about the primary political obstacle - obviously the country was founded on a good foundation without the benefit of the gospel. It has been said that indeed the founding of this country was a pre-requisite for the restoration of the gospel - there needed to be a country of liberty where the exercise of the gospel was possible.

And as I stated above, if your personal calling is to call people to repentance, focus on their testimonies, temple attendance and so forth - I am not here to discourage you or say what you are doing is not important, indeed it is critical. There are just areas that are not in the "Standard Mormon Answers" that need attention as well.

[ndjilicaptain of 100]

Lol you have got the Jonah story a little bit confused there. Jonah did not get swallowed by the big fish for being angry that Ninevah did not get destroyed

hahah sorry I've read the childrens Bible stories version to my toddler and got easily mixed up.

I guess I I feel the the political and spiritual ( Um gospel spiritual not new age lol) are symbiotic. You need both to be successful. That's why God set up this country in order to set up His church.

I know this may not be ultra political but I fell that the education of our children with good religious and constitutional values of the utmost importance. Most LDS I know that have socialst values got those from the educational system.

It seems the youth are becoming more and more indoctrinated into adopting viewpoints that are not those of their parents. I think parents need to take control of their childrens education and also elect good people at local levels.

But I feel that when missionary work dwindles God help us.

[Rosabellacaptain of 1,000]

It is so very clear that some of you do not understand what I have been trying to say. I am consistently interpreted wrongly.

I will answer this part. If people came to me and said Repentance and Obedience were the answers to the New Age Problem I would say AMEN!

The members of our Church and other faiths that believe in the True God and are obedient and humble are what keeps us from being wiped off this land. This land used to have many believers now it has very very few, which includes many LDS that no longer really believe in God.

The country must go back to believing in a God and worshiping Him in humility and obedience or it will get wiped off period.

You can not save a Godless country on this land.

The other stuff is all important too, but if you do not have a country that worships the real God you do not have a country that will exist because it will be wiped off as God promised.

So politics is important yet you could have the the exactly right politics but if the country is in a state of Godlessness and inequity it will be wiped off the face of the land.

So both need to be in place to save this country. That is all I am saying.
I combine spirituality with politics, but am being told that I am separating them. They are one inseparable union. There for you can not have correct politics without God in it.

Therefore the county must do TWO things simultaneously. 1) Repent and turn back to the Judeo-Christian God and his commandments 2) Return to the original intent of the US Constitution. But they both must be done or this effort will not succeed.

If they do not repent there will be no country.

[JasonI am a nobody!]

It is so very clear that some of you do not understand what I have been trying to say. I am consistently interpreted wrongly.

I will answer this part. If people came to me and said Repentance and Obedience were the answers to the New Age Problem I would say AMEN!

The members of our Church and other faiths that believe in the True God and are obedient and humble are what keeps us from being wiped off this land. This land used to have many believers now it has very very few, which includes many LDS that no longer really believe in God.

The country must go back to believing in a God and worshiping Him in humility and obedience or it will get wiped off period.

You can not save a Godless country on this land.

The other stuff is all important too, but if you do not have a country that worships the real God you do not have a country that will exist because it will be wiped off as God promised.

So politics is important yet you could have the the exactly right politics but if the country is in a state of Godlessness and inequity it will be wiped off the face of the land.

So both need to be in place to save this country. That is all I am saying.
I combine spirituality with politics, but am being told that I am separating them. They are one inseparable union. There for you can not have correct politics without God in it.

Therefore the county must do TWO things simultaneously. 1) Repent and turn back to the Judeo-Christian God and his commandments 2) Return to the original intent of the US Constitution. But they both must be done or this effort will not succeed.

If they do not repent there will be no country.

Thank you Bella! I believe the misunderstanding goes both ways. Agree 100% with everything you stated.

Now how best to tackle the problem? Do you give up your full time job (purse and script) and head out with a case of BOMs under your arm? Do you spend thousands of hours collecting information and sharing it (say new age material, or political, or economic, etc etc) in an effort to enlighten people to the wicked efforts under way....in the hopes that the people will recognize their "awful" situation....and Repent? Or perhaps enlighten the people as to why the Constitution is in existence (Natural Law, God's Law, unalienable rights) in the hopes that people will recognize their "awful" situation....and Repent?

A question of political issues/obstacles/tactics? But in terms of the most important as stated at the beginning of the thread....you are absolutely right - unrighteousness!

I think we all agree that we will be swept off if we are unrighteous......but that's a very wide swath.....and not limited to church members or not church members. When Christ appeared in America there were roughly 2000 people to greet him. They gathered more throughout the night for a bigger group the next day. Even then, the 12 spent many years after the event teaching others that survived the catastrophes (who still were wicked enough to toss the 12 into pits, prisons, wild beasts, etc etc).

As Brian mentioned in another thread....if we were face to face this would all be resolved so quickly and easily....the nature of the medium.

Best!

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

According to the Bible Dictionary:

Repentance means: The Greek word of which this is the translation denotes a change of mind,

It seems to me, that however we may go about combating evil - as guided by the Holy Spirit - is the correct way to go about combating evil.

Some prophets preach to those who claim to be righteous; some prophet-generals used the sword against those who sought to destroy the liberty of the people; some prophets have stood as a final witness of divine light to a profoundly degenerate civilization; some prophets have been restrained by the Spirit from saving women & children being burned alive; some prophets have lived a quiet life of service & were martyred for the miracles they performed; some prophets spent nearly their entire lives in prison before being murdered; some prophets have overturned generations of idol worship, returned their people from a war to an agrarian culture only to be invaded by a combined enemy from which only God could save them...

My point earlier is that by being pure and holy we can trust that whatever the Holy Ghost prompts us to DO will be the RIGHT thing to DO.

We must - every one of us - become prophets in our own spheres of responsibility and influence. What kind of prophet will depend upon our particular situation & what is needed by the Lord to further His Work.

If Repentance actually means a change of mind then it seems perfectly acceptable - to me - that all kinds of methods must and should be employed in order to assist others in gaining an understanding of why it is necessary to 'change one's mind'.

Force to 'change minds' does not figure into that responsibility, but I believe protecting one's unalienable rights and the liberty by which we may enjoy those rights is justifiable when guided by the promptings of the Holy Ghost. By thus protecting one's rights those who 'ignorantly' implement policies to destroy liberty may experience 'a change of mind'. The rest may be "Hell Bent", in which case we need to get them out in the open so we know who they are.

Sheriff Mack seems to be a fine example of DOing the above.

[JasonI am a nobody!]

Thank you BG for the excellent summary! Sheriff Mack is indeed an example to emulate!

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

You bet, Jason!

There is more than one way to 'change minds'.

I'm certainly not advocating such specific action given the superior surveillance & 'fire power' the SC's possess, but this story of one aging man's fight against the Union during the Civil War is an inspiration to me of what one person can do alone. I'm not suggesting he was a prophet, only that one motivated person can DO what doesn't seem possible.

Dr. Monteith interviewed the author of this book last fall. I'm not sure that interview is still available.

http://books.google.com/books?id=7bH_CD ... 22&f=false

[Rosabellacaptain of 1,000]

I agree with the "Change of mind"

Here is more of what the Church says repentance is:

Repentance is one of the first principles of the gospel and is essential to our temporal and eternal happiness. It is much more than just acknowledging wrongdoings. It is a change of mind and heart that gives us a fresh view about God, about ourselves, and about the world. It includes turning away from sin and turning to God for forgiveness. It is motivated by love for God and the sincere desire to obey His commandments.

Repentance is an act of faith in Jesus Christ—an acknowledgment of the power of His Atonement. We can be forgiven only on His terms. As we gratefully recognize His Atonement and His power to cleanse us from sin, we are able to "exercise [our] faith unto repentance" (Alma 34:17).

[Squallycaptain of 1,000]

My point earlier is that by being pure and holy we can trust that whatever the Holy Ghost prompts us to DO will be the RIGHT thing to DO.

We must - every one of us - become prophets in our own spheres of responsibility and influence. What kind of prophet will depend upon our particular situation & what is needed by the Lord to further His Work.

BG, Thanks for such a wonderful post! And Amen to the above. We will be called personally to the cause that utilizes our gifts talents and abilities to the best use in the Lords purposes when we are in tune to the Holy Ghost.

[Squallycaptain of 1,000]

It is so very clear that some of you do not understand what I have been trying to say. I am consistently interpreted wrongly.

I will answer this part. If people came to me and said Repentance and Obedience were the answers to the New Age Problem I would say AMEN!

The members of our Church and other faiths that believe in the True God and are obedient and humble are what keeps us from being wiped off this land. This land used to have many believers now it has very very few, which includes many LDS that no longer really believe in God.

The country must go back to believing in a God and worshiping Him in humility and obedience or it will get wiped off period.

You can not save a Godless country on this land.

The other stuff is all important too, but if you do not have a country that worships the real God you do not have a country that will exist because it will be wiped off as God promised.

So politics is important yet you could have the the exactly right politics but if the country is in a state of Godlessness and inequity it will be wiped off the face of the land.

So both need to be in place to save this country. That is all I am saying.
I combine spirituality with politics, but am being told that I am separating them. They are one inseparable union. There for you can not have correct politics without God in it.

Therefore the county must do TWO things simultaneously. 1) Repent and turn back to the Judeo-Christian God and his commandments 2) Return to the original intent of the US Constitution. But they both must be done or this effort will not succeed.

If they do not repent there will be no country.

Bella, thanks for this post, it definately helps clarify what you are saying. I agree...

[Rosabellacaptain of 1,000]

It is so very clear that some of you do not understand what I have been trying to say. I am consistently interpreted wrongly.

I will answer this part. If people came to me and said Repentance and Obedience were the answers to the New Age Problem I would say AMEN!

The members of our Church and other faiths that believe in the True God and are obedient and humble are what keeps us from being wiped off this land. This land used to have many believers now it has very very few, which includes many LDS that no longer really believe in God.

The country must go back to believing in a God and worshiping Him in humility and obedience or it will get wiped off period.

You can not save a Godless country on this land.

The other stuff is all important too, but if you do not have a country that worships the real God you do not have a country that will exist because it will be wiped off as God promised.

So politics is important yet you could have the the exactly right politics but if the country is in a state of Godlessness and inequity it will be wiped off the face of the land.

So both need to be in place to save this country. That is all I am saying.
I combine spirituality with politics, but am being told that I am separating them. They are one inseparable union. There for you can not have correct politics without God in it.

Therefore the county must do TWO things simultaneously. 1) Repent and turn back to the Judeo-Christian God and his commandments 2) Return to the original intent of the US Constitution. But they both must be done or this effort will not succeed.

If they do not repent there will be no country.

Bella, thanks for this post, it definately helps clarify what you are saying. I agree...

Thanks, Some how I was not making my statements clear enough. So I kept trying again and again and I think I was starting to get people irritated LOL
At least (I think) the point I was trying to making finally came through on this post

Now I can stop driving everyone nuts and they can go back to finding all the strategies

[ChelCThe Law]

I agree that repentance is what is needed... specifically, we need to turn back to the Lord and become a charitable people.
1 Corinthians 13

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

There is no obstacle that couldn't be overcome of the people of our nation repent and gain the attributes described above.

So, the greatest obstacle is ourselves.

[clarkkent14captain of 1,000]

I think repentance deals with our ignorance to the Awful Situation, sin of omission. I'm in that repentance process right now... learning about the constitution and our founders... I have to admit it wasn't taught very well my home growing up. The sins of my 'fathers' fell upon me. I'm repenting and I will teach my children.

The second way I'm repenting is by not having complete trust in the Lord and His Prophets. Before I woke up I didn't heed the words about debt spoken so often by our prophets. I'm not in a serious bind, but now I understand how debt is slavery. I can see why the prophets plead with us to avoid it. I need to repent for not taking the prophets at their word. Repent for my lack of Faith.

There... two ways I need repentance... in our awful situation

[blakwatchcaptain of 100]

Thought I'd sit back and just listen for awhile.

I want to thank everyone for all the great thoughts. It's been a very stimulating and though-provoking discussion. There is actually very little of any of it that I disagree with.

There is no question that repentence is certainly in order, and must happen.

My point, if anything, at this point is, I don't think the rest of the Country is ready to hear it from the Mormons.

First of all, one of the biggest challenges is that we're saying "do as we say, not as we do," because even among ourselves we're very hypcritical.

Just like although everything my mother said was absolutely true, there were plenty in my family who would not hear it -- especially from her.

I think the same is true in this country. We can pound the table as long and hard as we want -- and everything we say may be true -- but I'm not sure it's going to make much difference.

They don't want to hear it in the first place, and they certainly don't want to hear it from us.

But, I'm still interested in hearing, in specific, practical, concrete terms, what can be done to make any meaningful difference -- besides repentance -- which everyone seems to agree with.

In the meantime, what do we do -- just sit back and wait for everyone to repent?

Thanks again for all the comments.

[ChelCThe Law]

If you mean, what will make a meaningful difference besides repentance, I think the answer is nothing. We can't scheme our way out of judgments. There is no political scheme that can stop it.

Peace, prosperity and such are blessings predicated upon obedience. It's futile to kick against the pricks.

[Squallycaptain of 1,000]

Bella, thanks for this post, it definately helps clarify what you are saying. I agree...

Thanks, Some how I was not making my statements clear enough. So I kept trying again and again and I think I was starting to get people irritated LOL
At least (I think) the point I was trying to making finally came through on this post

Now I can stop driving everyone nuts and they can go back to finding all the strategies

Yes, I find communicating on a forum enjoyable; but sometimes difficult. If we were talking face to face most likely we could understand and mostly agree with each other with discussion on most topics...(most if not all of what I have read on your site and here I find of great value).

Yet how much do we gain by exchanging ideas in written form trying to concisely explain and teach each other without having the benefit of being face to face with instant communication.

I have found that my communication skills are honed by this form of communication and then enhanced to be more concise when speaking with others.

Still, talking on a forum trying to express ideas can be quite irritating sometimes..... Especially when discussing politics and religion.

[clarkkent14captain of 1,000]

Especially when discussing politics and religion.

No Doubt!

[JasonI am a nobody!]

Urge people to repent....repent from what....well most likely depends on the person and what their sins are.

Now if you are trying to reach an audience that consists of basically good decent folks (whom I think are still quite plentiful in this country)....yet they are ignorant to the unseen hand and politics in general (really politics can be defined as the control structure....and the process to obtaining control).

Educate them with principles....perhaps the same principles that the founding fathers espoused. Plant the seed.

Might be helpful to have some actionable steps for them when they awake so they don't flounder in despair for a few minutes before shutting down (thinking there is nothing they can do).

Perhaps an organization to facilitate those actionable steps.

Perhaps a flag of liberty....few rifles...wouldn't hurt!

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

John Birch Society is good (and may even be under LDS management if I am not mistaken - not that that matters)
Campaign for Liberty
Independent Caucus
Constitution Party
Independent American Party

I have also heard that the Patrick Henry Caucus is very good, but I am not a member and have no first hand knowledge.

Books for LDS
An Enemy Hath Done This by Ezra Taft Benson
The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil by H Verlan Anderson
The Book of Mormon and the Constitution "" (after reading this and then reading the Book of Mormon, I was constantly seeing new messages in the B of M!)
Prophets, Principles and National Survival by Jerreld L Newquist
The Proper Role of Government by Ezra Taft Benson
The Moral Basis of a Free Society by H Verlan Anderson, free online reading at http://www.ldsfreedomportal.net/moralbasis.pdf
The Naked Communist by Cleon Skousen
None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen

Books and readings for everyone.

The Law by Frederic Bastiat (available for free online reading at http://www.freelythinking.com/The_Law.pdf
2nd Treatise on Government by John Locke free online reading at http://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtreat.htm

Feel free to add. There are many others that I have read that aren't coming to mind, and also a great many more that I want to read but haven't gotten to.

Some that I have either browsed or have not yet read but want to:
The Creature From Jekyll Island by G Edward Griffin
Tragedy and Hope by Carroll Quigley
The Naked Capitalist by Cleon Skousen
Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkins (Saw the video which was excellent, but Google took it down wihtin two weeks and afaik it is not available - I have not been able to find it online.) Here is an interview with the author, but this is NOT the actual film http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 666247652#
WOW! I am listening to this interview right now - VERY good and informative, almost as good as the movie itself!