The Ensign - worth it?

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9830

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by JohnnyL »

So much is rehash, including FP messages, the talks in back, and other articles. And many of the talks in back are somewhat recent.

Some of it is articles ABOUT the articles.

The Voices of the Saints is great. It is meat--healthy, happy, chewy, fat meat. ;)

The New Era used to have some really good articles, don't know how they are now.

We are reading Mormon now. Two themes: "Repent, or be destroyed." "Repent, because you'll stand before God and be judged, and you'll have hell to pay if you don't repent."

If you want "meat", there are the FAIR boards, Dialogue, Sunstone, BYU BoM, Dan Peterson and Bill Hamblin's websites/ blogs, etc.
Last edited by JohnnyL on June 27th, 2017, 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
David13
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7072
Location: Utah

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by David13 »

I think the problem is simple.
Your average ordinary garden variety LDS saint is not an intellectual, or, as some say, an egg head. And that includes biblical scholarship.
Richard Hofstedtler outlined the issue in the '60s? with a book "Anti Intellectualism in America LIfe".
And as the church now appeals to the "general population" either the general population becomes more intelligent and studious, or the church becomes fun and entertaining, like "bass KIT ball" or a Disney movie.
I know what's happening there.
So it's reflected in conference, and the Ensign.
dc

OCDMOM
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1405

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by OCDMOM »

"A Prophet is also a Seer. Seers see things the rest of us can't see or know. They know what is coming. Listen have Faith and trust." Apostle Edwin A Sexton

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by marc »

There is also another thread asking why our leaders have made no new announcements. I'm not sure what people want with new information, especially when there is SO MUCH to learn from what the Lord has given to us already. The Book of Mormon, for example, is a platform from which we can learn the mysteries of godliness. God has commanded us to ask/seek to know His mysteries. But doing that requires real effort. It requires coming unto Christ with all your heart, might, mind, and strength. Breezing through conference talks requires very little effort at all.

User avatar
kirtland r.m.
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5096

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by kirtland r.m. »

Irrelevant wrote: June 27th, 2017, 12:28 pm
Robin Hood wrote: June 27th, 2017, 11:36 am I would be interested to know whether anyone other than me has quit taking the Ensign because it is just so awful these days.
I came across some copies I have from the 1970's the other day. When I compare the modern offering the phrase "dumbed down" came both forcefully and unavoidably to mind.
The older version had scholarly theological and historical articles within interesting and insightful perspectives. The current version appears to be full of sugar and sweetness, but nothing of real value.
Is it just me?
Seems like members and leaders alike were much less PC and a lot tougher in the 70's. About a year ago I started listening to all of the General Conference talks offered on the Gospel library app from the beginning. What happened to the fire? Same with the Ensign.
Amen, I had a quote in years past, haven't been able to find I anywhere again lately. It was Elder Boyd K. Packer speaking to a smaller group down at B.Y.U.. He said to beware of shifts in the Church over time. There is one to think about.
The first vision diorama has been taken out of the North Visitors Center at Temple Square(was at the end of the New Testament Tour just after some great quotes by the ancient Apostles, and then by later famous christian reformers about a gospel restoration in the last days). I thought it was perfect. Now a much more watered down set of tours. I once heard that the church was surveying and said that people in general, many of them, became uncomfortable being told about latter day angels and messengers returning to the earth. I hope that is not why they have been making these changes. When our missionaries were going out in the 1980's they and the other members where baptizing as many souls as now, with half the full time missionaries we have now and a lot less members of the church. This is really disappointing, it really is.
Last edited by kirtland r.m. on June 28th, 2017, 6:43 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13110
Location: England

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by Robin Hood »

kirtland r.m. wrote: June 28th, 2017, 6:27 am
Irrelevant wrote: June 27th, 2017, 12:28 pm
Robin Hood wrote: June 27th, 2017, 11:36 am I would be interested to know whether anyone other than me has quit taking the Ensign because it is just so awful these days.
I came across some copies I have from the 1970's the other day. When I compare the modern offering the phrase "dumbed down" came both forcefully and unavoidably to mind.
The older version had scholarly theological and historical articles within interesting and insightful perspectives. The current version appears to be full of sugar and sweetness, but nothing of real value.
Is it just me?
Seems like members and leaders alike were much less PC and a lot tougher in the 70's. About a year ago I started listening to all of the General Conference talks offered on the Gospel library app from the beginning. What happened to the fire? Same with the Ensign.
Amen, I had a quote in years past, haven't been able to find I anywhere again lately. It was Elder Boyd K. Packer speaking to a smaller group down at B.Y.U.. He said to beware of shifts in the Church over time. There is one to think about.
I think he said something like "We (meaning the church leadership) are losing the ability to correct the course of the Church".

Edit: Just found the quote.
http://ldsquotes.com/boyd-k-packer-on-w ... -prophets/
Last edited by Robin Hood on June 28th, 2017, 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Irrelevant
captain of 100
Posts: 140

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by Irrelevant »

kirtland r.m. wrote: June 28th, 2017, 6:27 am
Irrelevant wrote: June 27th, 2017, 12:28 pm
Robin Hood wrote: June 27th, 2017, 11:36 am I would be interested to know whether anyone other than me has quit taking the Ensign because it is just so awful these days.
I came across some copies I have from the 1970's the other day. When I compare the modern offering the phrase "dumbed down" came both forcefully and unavoidably to mind.
The older version had scholarly theological and historical articles within interesting and insightful perspectives. The current version appears to be full of sugar and sweetness, but nothing of real value.
Is it just me?
Seems like members and leaders alike were much less PC and a lot tougher in the 70's. About a year ago I started listening to all of the General Conference talks offered on the Gospel library app from the beginning. What happened to the fire? Same with the Ensign.
Amen, I had a quote in years past, haven't been able to find I anywhere again lately. It was Elder Boyd K. Packer speaking to a smaller group down at B.Y.U.. He said to beware of shifts in the Church over time. There is one to think about.
Wow. I would love to get that in context! It's scary because if a lay member of the church were to say something like that today he'd immediately be met by calls of apostasy, not supporting our leaders, and lack of testimony. What's scary about it is that we keep telling ourselves that all is well in Zion- nothing like that would ever happen in OUR day. I'm beginning to understand that this is an individual journey. You'd think it would be a given, but most of my life I just sang "Follow the Prophet" and said, "All is well in Zion" myself, being a lazy and unwise son.

Disclaimer- Following the prophet isn't bad, not verifying and thinking for oneself is.

Edit- I just saw your edit. :))

Irrelevant
captain of 100
Posts: 140

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by Irrelevant »

Holy smokes! I found the source and it's amazing!

"In recent years we might be compared to a team of doctors issuing
prescriptions to cure or to immunize our members against spiritual diseases.
Each time some moral or spiritual ailment was diagnosed, we have rushed to
the pharmacy to concoct another remedy, encapsulate it as a program and
send it out with pages of directions for use.
While we all seem to agree that over medication, over-programming, is a
critically serious problem, we have failed to reduce the treatments. It has
been virtually impossible to affect any reduction in programs.
Each time we try, advocates cry to high heaven that we are putting the
spiritual lives of our youth at risk. If symptoms reappear, we program even
heavier doses of interviews, activities, meetings, and assessments.
The best answer, perhaps is to withdraw all prescriptions and start over. The
whole correlation effort, which took about twenty years, followed that
course and much was accomplished. The habits for moral and spiritual
health were defined. The scriptures were prescribed as the basic
nourishment. The curriculum, loaded with spiritual nutrients, was developed
but we did not allow time for it to work and we failed to close the pharmacy
or even effectively control it.
We now have ourselves in a corner. For instance, we have reason to be
seriously concerned about the lack of reverence in the Church. Perhaps this
one thing, general across the world, is as much an interference with and a
short-circuiting of inspiration as anything that could be pointed to. However,
I dare not press for the corrections of that issue because we do not seem to
be able to solve a problem without designing a program with pages of
instruction and sending it out again.
It is time now for you who head the auxiliaries and the departments and
those of us who advise them, after all the repetitive cautions from the First
Presidency, to change our mind-set and realize that a reduction of and a
secession from that constant programming must be accomplished.
The hardest ailment to treat is a virtue carried to the extreme. We cannot
seem to learn that too much, even of a good thing, or too many good things,
like vitamins taken in overdose, can be harmful.
In recent years I have felt, and I think I am not alone, that we were losing the
ability to correct the course of the Church. You cannot appreciate how
deeply I feel about the importance of this present opportunity unless you
know the regard, the reverence, I have for the Book of Mormon and how
seriously I have taken the warnings of the prophets, particularly Alma and
Helaman.
Both Alma and Helaman told of the church in their day. They warned about
fast growth, the desire to be accepted by the world, to be popular, and
particularly they warned about prosperity. Each time those conditions
existed in combination, the Church drifted off course. All of those conditions
are present in the Church today."

I don't know anything about this site but here's a link to the address (It's called "Let them Govern Themselves"):
http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/freemormon/govern.pdf

eddie
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2405

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by eddie »

Last general conference I was distraught with some things and I hung on their every word. They talked about the pre-existence and the plan of salvation, I was so happy with learning who we are again, satan would like us to
Forget.
I do agree that the ensign seems so simple, and that appeals to those who are new or investigating. Like Marc said, there's plenty of meat elsewhere, but the gospel of Jesus Christ is simple. I read the ensign and am happy to have it.

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9830

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by JohnnyL »

kirtland r.m. wrote: June 28th, 2017, 6:27 am Amen, I had a quote in years past, haven't been able to find I anywhere again lately. It was Elder Boyd K. Packer speaking to a smaller group down at B.Y.U.. He said to beware of shifts in the Church over time. There is one to think about.
The first vision diorama has been taken out of the North Visitors Center at Temple Square(was at the end of the New Testament Tour just after some great quotes by the ancient Apostles, and then by later famous christian reformers about a gospel restoration in the last days). I thought it was perfect. Now a much more watered down set of tours. I once heard that the church was surveying and said that people in general, many of them, became uncomfortable being told about latter day angels and messengers returning to the earth. I hope that is not why they have been making these changes. When our missionaries were going out in the 1980's they and the other members where baptizing as many souls as now, with half the full time missionaries we have now and a lot less members of the church. This is really disappointing, it really is.
That's sad. Elder Holland's talk on angels comes to mind. So does the experience of a man who had read at least some of the BoM asking, "Do you believe in angels?" "Yes, we do." You could tell he struggled to wrap his mind and heart around that one.

In my opinion: For most people, if you do not feel uncomfortable or scared with something about the doctrine, practices, or history before joining, you won't make it in this church. So all that is just hurting, not helping.

Perhaps until most people see death and hell staring them in the face--and feel VERY uncomfortable--they aren't going to want or even be able to feel God's love. I've found some scriptures seem to support that.

User avatar
h_p
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2811

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by h_p »

marc wrote: June 28th, 2017, 4:57 am There is also another thread asking why our leaders have made no new announcements. I'm not sure what people want with new information, especially when there is SO MUCH to learn from what the Lord has given to us already. The Book of Mormon, for example, is a platform from which we can learn the mysteries of godliness. God has commanded us to ask/seek to know His mysteries. But doing that requires real effort. It requires coming unto Christ with all your heart, might, mind, and strength. Breezing through conference talks requires very little effort at all.
This reminded me of something I read in Gileadi's book "The Book of Isaiah" that made me realize I really needed a cultural overhaul in how I approach the gospel:
gileadi quote.jpg
gileadi quote.jpg (128.08 KiB) Viewed 1582 times

User avatar
kittycat51
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1791
Location: Looking for Zion

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by kittycat51 »

Okay now that I am going through July's Ensign, I do have to agree that there are way more "fluffy" stories than what was published in the past. BUT...there are still tidbits of greatness. Please read Elder David Bednar's article "On the Lord's side, Lesson's from Zion's Camp".
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/07/on-t ... p?lang=eng

In it he touches on those who "question the brethren". I think many on this forum would benefit from reading it.

Michelle
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by Michelle »

What if the answer isn't more "intellectualism" but more "intelligence."

It is hard for me to give this a good explanation because it is a topic I still feel the Lord is teaching me. I do know there is a difference though.

I am not a huge fan of many Mormon blogs/website because of the focus on intellectualism over intelligence. I don't want more trivia. I want more wisdom.

I want quotes and histories that support further light and knowledge, not pet theories.

We are a church if converts, perhaps current Ensign is simply meeting people where they are at. Maybe it is simply a case of those who write for the Ensign are what and how the majority of Mormon's think right now.

The reality is intellectualism can quickly lead to looking beyond the mark. It can become a stumbling block. Intelligence flows from God. It is taught by the Spirit. It is full of fire that burns out the foolishness of men and replaces it with the wisdom of God.

I do love reading Nibley and old Ensign's. I feel like it isn't so much the words used, but the Spirit by which it was written was more pure and the Spirit by which it must be received is the same.

I kind of feel like the newer Ensign's are written more with the Spirit of man's weakness and so that is all the Spirit they have to convey.

That sounded harsh and I don't mean it that way. Like I said, it is hard to find the word's.

Nibley and Maxwell were spiritual giants and they spoke in their true voice. Much of the current article sound like kids trying to copy the "accent" of the spiritual giants, but you can tell it is not their native tongue.

As for the prophets and apostles, I feel more like they are forbidden from speaking plainly. By those who listen with the Spitir will be taught regardless.

As nice as it would be to have the Ensign meet my hopes. Similar to what someone else said, we have General Conference and that is very filling. We gave the scriptures, and they are very filling. We have the Spirit and prayer, and they are very filling. I have my "2-3 witnesses." In these sources. I can be filled and satisfied with that.

Irrelevant
captain of 100
Posts: 140

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by Irrelevant »

h_p wrote: June 28th, 2017, 9:21 am
marc wrote: June 28th, 2017, 4:57 am There is also another thread asking why our leaders have made no new announcements. I'm not sure what people want with new information, especially when there is SO MUCH to learn from what the Lord has given to us already. The Book of Mormon, for example, is a platform from which we can learn the mysteries of godliness. God has commanded us to ask/seek to know His mysteries. But doing that requires real effort. It requires coming unto Christ with all your heart, might, mind, and strength. Breezing through conference talks requires very little effort at all.
This reminded me of something I read in Gileadi's book "The Book of Isaiah" that made me realize I really needed a cultural overhaul in how I approach the gospel:
gileadi quote.jpg
I think many members are either feeling the need for a (personal) cultural overhaul and/or are actually doing it. I've been going through one myself. It's scary when a person (me) sees how blind they are, to see that they've been wrong or focusing on the wrong things.

Michelle
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by Michelle »

Irrelevant wrote: June 28th, 2017, 10:11 am
I think many members are either feeling the need for a (personal) cultural overhaul and/or are actually doing it. I've been going through one myself. It's scary when a person (me) sees how blind they are, to see that they've been wrong or focusing on the wrong things.
Because one thanks wasn't enough.

Thank you!

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by marc »

Agreed, Michelle. Intelligence, or in other words, light and truth. Nephi lamented greatly that people do not search knowledge when it is offered in plainness. EVerything we need to know is given to us plainly in the Book of Mormon. The church keeps trying to reinvent the wheel and write all kinds of material, which ends up hampering many members in the long run because they did not receive it by the Spirit. The things of God must be received by the Spirit or they are not of God.

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by Finrock »

marc wrote: June 28th, 2017, 12:20 pm Agreed, Michelle. Intelligence, or in other words, light and truth. Nephi lamented greatly that people do not search knowledge when it is offered in plainness. EVerything we need to know is given to us plainly in the Book of Mormon. The church keeps trying to reinvent the wheel and write all kinds of material, which ends up hampering many members in the long run because they did not receive it by the Spirit. The things of God must be received by the Spirit or they are not of God.
I agree. The Spirit matters most. We can get the Holy Spirit as our guide and that Spirit will lead us to all good things, to learn all good things that are needful, and it will give us strength to accomplish the good things required to be accomplished. Prophets speak by the Spirit, scriptures were written through the Spirit, and if we are to understand either the prophets or the scriptures, we must have the Spirit.

If the Spirit is the key that unlocks the voice of the prophets and which unlocks the scriptures and which unlocks the gate to the Way of Christ, how does one obtain the Spirit?

-Finrock

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by marc »

Finrock wrote: June 28th, 2017, 4:30 pmIf the Spirit is the key that unlocks the voice of the prophets and which unlocks the scriptures and which unlocks the gate to the Way of Christ, how does one obtain the Spirit?

-Finrock
Nephi summed it up in 2 Nephi 31 and 32. Everything he experienced, prophesied, and taught was summarized in those two chapters, or rather, the manner in which he obtained "knowledge" concerning all things is summarized in those two chapters. If all members focused on this, all the Ensign magazines, books, commentaries, scholarly works, church publications, correlated materials, and all that has been written on the matter would become obsolete.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by marc »

I think most members, perhaps almost all members fall short here. 2 Nephi 32 is where it's at. Nephi said it three times. But he perceived that it wouldn't sink in. And so what we have his final thoughts in ch. 33 as I quoted earlier.
2 Nephi 33:1 And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.

2 But behold, there are many that harden their hearts against the Holy Spirit, that it hath no place in them; wherefore, they cast many things away which are written and esteem them as things of naught.

3 But I, Nephi, have written what I have written, and I esteem it as of great worth, and especially unto my people...
Contrast what most people esteem as things of naught with what Nephi esteems as of great worth. Nephi did what Laman and Lemuel refused to do. And Nephi persisited. And Nephi obtained. And right after Nephi died, the people did exactly what Isaiah prophesied they would do just like the Jews back at Jerusalem. And the cycle began anew. And the cycle is happening today and has been happening ever since the restoration of the church.

User avatar
LukeAir2008
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2985
Location: Highland

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by LukeAir2008 »

'It is a very apparent fact that we have traveled far and wide in the past 20 years. What the future will bring I do not know. But if we drift as far afield from fundamental things in the next 20 years, what will be left of the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph Smith? It is easy for one who observes to see how the apostasy came about in the primitive church of Christ. Are we not traveling the same road?' (Joseph Fielding Smith Journal, 28 December 1938)

User avatar
LukeAir2008
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2985
Location: Highland

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by LukeAir2008 »

This is the quote from Elder Boyd K Packer which I think some are referring to:

'In recent years I have felt, and I think I am not alone, that we are losing the ability to correct the course of the church. You cannot appreciate how deeply I feel about the importance of this present opportunity unless you know the regard, the reverence, I have for the Book of Mormon and how seriously I have taken the warnings of the prophets, particularly Alma and Helaman.
Both Alma and Helaman told the church in their day. They warned about fast growth, the desire to be accepted by the world, to be popular, and particularly they warned about prosperity. Each time those conditions existed in combination, the church has drifted off course. All of those conditions are present in the church today.
Helaman repeatedly warned, I think four times he used these words, that the fatal drift of the church could occur in the space of not many years. In one instance it took only six years.' (Helaman 6:32; 7:6; 11:26) (“Let Them Govern Themselves,” Reg. Rep. Seminar, March 30, 1990, underline added)

User avatar
LukeAir2008
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2985
Location: Highland

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by LukeAir2008 »

President Spencer W Kimball:

'When I review the performance of this people in comparison with what is expected, I am appalled and frightened. If we insist on spending all our time and resources building up for ourselves a worldly kingdom, that is exactly what we will inherit. In spite of our delight in defining ourselves as modern, and our tendency to think we possess a sophistication that no people in the past ever had–in spite of these things, we are, on the whole, an idolatrous people–a condition most repugnant to the Lord. (Ensign, June 1976)

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by marc »

I remember enjoying Ensign Magazines of those years.

User avatar
LukeAir2008
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2985
Location: Highland

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by LukeAir2008 »

I remember the first Ensign I ever possessed was the November 1980 Conference edition given to me by the two greatest missionaries who ever walked the planet - Elder Val Worthington from Scottsdale, Arizona and Elder Paul Deis from Ogden, Utah. It was more precious than gold to me!

eddie
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2405

Re: The Ensign - worth it?

Post by eddie »

LukeAir2008 wrote: June 29th, 2017, 3:07 pm I remember the first Ensign I ever possessed was the November 1980 Conference edition given to me by the two greatest missionaries who ever walked the planet - Elder Val Worthington from Scottsdale, Arizona and Elder Paul Deis from Ogden, Utah. It was more precious than gold to me!
Those of us who've had the gospel our whole life don't appreciate it.

Post Reply