An Old Nephite Coin

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An Old Nephite Coin

Postby kittycat51 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:04 am

I have this story in my possession of family history related stuff. Honorable George Peacock (Judge) is my husband's g-g-grandfather. The story was published in the Deseret News December 12, 1860.

"An Old Nephite Coin"

Hon. George Peacock, of Manti, has exhibited in our office an old copper coin, recently found by some explorer or hunter on the Colorado River, on both sides of which are hieroglyphics or characters and Hebrew coin letters. Not being one of the "learned", we submitted it to Professor Phelps, who has given us the following as a literal translation of the characters. On one side, it reads according to the rendition:

"The King, Hagagadonihah, over the kingdom near the sea west, sends to all greeting: one sinine"

On the other side---"In the 95th year of the Kingdom of Christ, 9th year of my reign: Peace and life. Weapon to weapon: Life for life."

The coin is 1765 years old: and is evidently a Nephite Senine or farthing, as mentioned in the fifth chapter of second Nephi, in the Book of Mormon--English edition, page 517. It is about the size of an English farthing. The numerals are plain Arabic figures.


I wonder what ever became of that coin? I don't know if anyone in the Peacock clan still holds it or if it was turned over to the Church. The coin supposedly dated 5 A.D. I know that the Church has "things" that the common member doesn't know about. When my father was a member of the quorum of 70 he was shown several items of which the only particular one he told us about was some pages from the original manuscripts of the Book of Mormon. He mentioned other "items" but would not elaborate.

I find it interesting that it was found on the Colorado River.... :)

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby Sirocco » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:45 pm

Is there a picture?
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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby JohnnyL » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:09 pm

There were reports of caves and mummies on the Colorado a long time ago, but nothing ever happened (publicly, that is).

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby 5tev3 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:40 pm

I don't like being a nay sayer but that sounds really fishy to me. Secondly that is a LOT to fit on a coin. Thirdly, I don't think the Nephite system used coins, weights were probably more practical.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby cyclOps » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:37 pm

5tev3 wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:40 pm
I don't like being a nay sayer but that sounds really fishy to me. Secondly that is a LOT to fit on a coin. Thirdly, I don't think the Nephite system used coins, weights were probably more practical.
It would be cool though, huh.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby marc » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:34 am

5tev3 wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:40 pm
I don't like being a nay sayer but that sounds really fishy to me. Secondly that is a LOT to fit on a coin. Thirdly, I don't think the Nephite system used coins, weights were probably more practical.
Agreed. This alone should have been the dead give-away:
On the other side---"In the 95th year of the Kingdom of Christ, 9th year of my reign: Peace and life. Weapon to weapon: Life for life."
And this:
The numerals are plain Arabic figures.
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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby Robin Hood » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:48 am

Even if the Nephites did use coins as an exchange mechanism, a Senine was not copper, it was gold.
If someone was trying to stage some kind of hoax they would probably use a non-precious metal like copper. It was cheap and plentiful. To perpetrate a hoax with gold would have been expensive.
Last edited by Robin Hood on Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby 5tev3 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:50 am

cyclOps wrote:It would be cool though, huh.
Oh, yeah, no doubt.
marc wrote:
On the other side---"In the 95th year of the Kingdom of Christ, 9th year of my reign: Peace and life. Weapon to weapon: Life for life."
Haha, yes, HIGHLY suspect. To illustrate how much text would have to be on this coin, check out the following comparisons using actual Arabic and Hebrew, compared with a modern US coin (roughly the size of a farthing) and an ancient Roman coin:
Screenshot 2017-06-19 09.45.30.png
Screenshot 2017-06-19 09.45.30.png (726.23 KiB) Viewed 729 times
You would have to occupy the entire coin with text. If you Google ancient coins (and modern ones for that matter) you do not find a lot of text on the coins. There are usually large pictures which helps people, especially illiterate ones quickly identify the value of the coin. While it appears technically possible for all that text to fit on a coin in Hebrew, I am still unconvinced.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby Robin Hood » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:52 am

5tev3 wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:50 am
cyclOps wrote:It would be cool though, huh.
Oh, yeah, no doubt.
marc wrote:
On the other side---"In the 95th year of the Kingdom of Christ, 9th year of my reign: Peace and life. Weapon to weapon: Life for life."
Haha, yes, HIGHLY suspect. To illustrate how much text would have to be on this coin, check out the following comparisons using actual Arabic and Hebrew, compared with a modern US coin (roughly the size of a farthing) and an ancient Roman coin:
Screenshot 2017-06-19 09.45.30.png
You would have to occupy the entire coin with text. If you Google ancient coins (and modern ones for that matter) you do not find a lot of text on the coins. There are usually large pictures which helps people, especially illiterate ones quickly identify the value of the coin. While it appears technically possible for all that text to fit on a coin in Hebrew, I am still unconvinced.
While that is interesting, we do know the Nephites changed the Hebrew language, and sometimes recorded important stuff (like scripture) in a reformed Egyptian designed to save space and communicate as much information as possible with the fewest possible characters.
I agree with you that this is a very unlikely story, but I think the described inscription is certainly possible.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby kittycat51 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:25 pm

Taken from the Deseret Evening News of Oct. 14, 1916.

"PIONEER INCIDENTS." BY Col. J. H. Mortineau. NEPHITE MONEY."

An incident occurred to me in 1854 in Parowan, which greatly interested me then and still does so.

Walker, the great Utah chieftain-"King of the mountains" as he styled himself - camped near Parowan at his return from one of his annual raids against the Indians of the Colorado river country for plunder and the capture of Indian children to sell to whites. I knew him well and as I met him one day, he motioned to me to stop and talk. He could not speak English but both could speak the Pah-Ede (incorrectlyspelled-Pieede [sic]) sufficiently to understand each other.

From a small buckskin pouch he took two metallic balls, each having six flat faces, upon which each of them had hieroglyphics beautifully cut or stamped upon their surface. One of these balls was about one inch in diameter and the other about three-fourths of an inch. He handed them to me, inquiring if they were money.

"Let me see," I said, and examined them closely. They were so greatly oxidized that I could not tell whether they were silver or some base metal, and with my knife I was about to scrape off the rust to see if they were composed of silver or of copper.

Seeing this, he snatched them from me and replaced them in his pouch.

"Where did you get them?" I asked. He said, "In a cave near the big river," (the Colorado) and said he believed they were money; also that there was more of it in the cave and if it was money, he would go and get more.

I never knew what he did with those ancient relics, but he evidently never got anymore of them.

"What were those balls of not intended for money? And how came they in that cave? To me the answer is plain.

When the Nephites were driven northward by their enemies, some rich man fled for safety to te [sic] cave, taking with him his wealth, hoping, doubtless, at some future time when danger should be passed, to again enjoy his wealth. Doubtless he was captured, killed or starved in the cave, never again able to remove or enjoy his possession. When the Nephites were driven northward they now and then obtained a victory and were able for one or more years to remain long enough in one place to raise crops sufficient for the support of such a host until again attacked and compelled to retreat farther northward. And this alternate halt and drove continued for years until the Nephites made their last stand at the hill Cumorah.

In this connection I will say that many traditions of the Pali-Edes seemed like reading from the Book of Mormon--a book to them unknown.

They tell of great wars between Indians who were white, who lived by cultivation of fields and had houses, horses and cattle like white people, whose enemies they called dark Indians, who lived entirely by hunting and by war. They said the white Indians for years prevailed against their enemies until their leader was killed with all his people.

There is one place in southern Utah which no Indian would cross in the night time for any consideration, nor by daylight if possible to avoid it--a place three or four miles in extent. They say a great battle occurred here, lasting three days, until one could walk for miles upon dead bodies without touching the ground, and that at night they can hear the wailing of the dead. There are several places in southern Utah where large, smooth-faced rocks are covered with inscriptions which the Indians say tell of these great events. I, myself, have seen those inscriptions in several places, but of course their meanings to me were unknown.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby kittycat51 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:31 pm

Here is another experience which again brings up the thought...what does the Church have in it's possession that we don't know about?

"I did have the opportunity of taking the testimony of two persons from my home town, a man and his wife, Brother and Sister Robinson, who brought what was reported to be a Nephite coin to the offices of the First Presidency around the turn of the century. He had served in the Southern States as a missionary. He came back from the Southern States with what he believed to be a Nephite coin. His mission president, Ben E. Rich, had so identified it.
I do not know the means by which the mission president made the identification. But Brother Robinson was told that it was a Nephite coin. He was told also by his mission president to take it to the First Presidency when he returned home.

He did so. I took the testimony from him and from his wife, had it recorded and then read it to them and had them sign it. They testify that such a coin was delivered to the Church. I was also told in that interview that they were shown a bag of coins of similar nature, by members of the First Presidency. This, as I say, happened around the turn of the century, around 1890".
(James R. Clark, Book of Mormon Institute, BYU, December 5,1959, p.55)

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby kittycat51 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:04 pm

An added note: The "learned professor Phelps" was indeed W.W. Phelps. I don't doubt the validity of the coin itself; what Phelps claimed was on it, I'm not sure...

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby JohnnyL » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:42 pm

kittycat51 wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:25 pm
Taken from the Deseret Evening News of Oct. 14, 1916.
...

There is one place in southern Utah which no Indian would cross in the night time for any consideration, nor by daylight if possible to avoid it--a place three or four miles in extent. They say a great battle occurred here, lasting three days, until one could walk for miles upon dead bodies without touching the ground, and that at night they can hear the wailing of the dead. There are several places in southern Utah where large, smooth-faced rocks are covered with inscriptions which the Indians say tell of these great events. I, myself, have seen those inscriptions in several places, but of course their meanings to me were unknown.
Location? =p~

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby DesertWonderer » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:18 pm

Lovely examples of Mormon myths.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby brianj » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:47 pm

5tev3 wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:50 am
Haha, yes, HIGHLY suspect. To illustrate how much text would have to be on this coin, check out the following comparisons using actual Arabic and Hebrew, compared with a modern US coin (roughly the size of a farthing) and an ancient Roman coin:
Screenshot 2017-06-19 09.45.30.png
You would have to occupy the entire coin with text. If you Google ancient coins (and modern ones for that matter) you do not find a lot of text on the coins. There are usually large pictures which helps people, especially illiterate ones quickly identify the value of the coin. While it appears technically possible for all that text to fit on a coin in Hebrew, I am still unconvinced.
I am not familiar enough with the language to do what you did, but I would love to see an example in Demotic since I suspect the Egyptian language referenced in the Book of Mormon is Demotic. I suspect it would require a lot more real estate than the Arabic.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby 5tev3 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:54 am

brianj wrote: I am not familiar enough with the language to do what you did, but I would love to see an example in Demotic since I suspect the Egyptian language referenced in the Book of Mormon is Demotic. I suspect it would require a lot more real estate than the Arabic.
I compared the three possible candidates for the original Egyptian writing systems that may have been used here: http://oneclimbs.com/2014/03/30/the-3-c ... an-script/ and there's another post on this topic that may be of interest as well: http://oneclimbs.com/2016/01/14/mosiah- ... scripture/

Nephi was taught in the language of the Egyptians by Lehi, but it is important to note that the Brass Plates were written in Egyptian and not Hebrew: "For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time." (Mosiah 1:4)

I know that Demotic is a popular candidate, but I think that it is more likely that Hieratic was the language on the Brass Plates.

Here is a description of why Demotic was used: “Like hieratic, demotic was a simple form of hieroglyphic used for everyday purposes. It was even faster to write than hieratic. Demotic means ‘popular’, and has the same root as ‘democracy’.

Now here is a description of Hieratic: “Hieratic was a kind of writing based on hieroglyphic but with more flowing lines – like cursive writing compared to printing. ‘Hieratic’ means priestly, because it was used by priests. Many other scribes used it, though, for all sorts of day to day writing. It was much quicker to write than hieroglyphs. It is harder to see pictures in it, though."

We don't know how old the Brass Plates were, they could have been very old and Hieratic was around a lot longer than Demotic. What convinces me is that Demotic was more of a common shorthand whereas Hieratic was used by priests and I think that would have been the choice for scripture vs. what you would use to write a shopping list. Note that Demotic was faster to write, that doesn't necessarily mean that it could contain more information in a denser space, the characters are just simpler (print vs. cursive).

The Paleo-Hebrew, Phoenician, and Egyptian alphabets were almost identical. So I'd imagine that Hieratic and Demotic on a coin would occupy a similar amount of space on a coin as Hebrew. The main problem here is that this coin claims to be from the A.D. era and may have had reformed characters of either Hebrew or Egyptian (since they were both modified) that are unknown to us. But that point is irrelevant since the claim is that the coin had Hebrew on it and was easily translated. So that's another strike against it's authenticity.

Another thing to think about is that the Nephites modified the Hebrew and Egyptian languages. We know they spoke and wrote in Hebrew (they were Israelites) but we don't know how widespread the Egyptian was understood. It seems like only Nephi had a knowledge of that language, and anyone else that could read the plates. It may have been that spiritual records were kept in Egyptian which was known only by the scribes. We're in the realm of speculation now, but those are just some ideas.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby 5tev3 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:05 am

Robin Hood wrote:While that is interesting, we do know the Nephites changed the Hebrew language, and sometimes recorded important stuff (like scripture) in a reformed Egyptian designed to save space and communicate as much information as possible with the fewest possible characters.
I agree with you that this is a very unlikely story, but I think the described inscription is certainly possible.
We know that space on the plates was limited and that they wrote on them in Egyptian to "save space" so to speak, but were the modifications to the languages to further save space or were they made to protect the content of records? To encode them in a way to make them unusable by their enemies or the uninitiated, especially if there was sacred content such as certain rituals, etc. It's hard to say I guess.

The most interesting attempt at understanding how the Nephite's reformed Egyptian may have worked is this translation of the Anthon characters by Jerry Grover: http://bmslr.org/translation-of-the-caractors-document/ Download the free PDF book and give it a read, it is pretty compelling.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby tribrac » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:39 am

I have long hoped for an amazing archeological discovery validating the Book of Mormon narrative. As a young man I thought it would prove the truthfulness. Now as an older man I suspect it would change nothing. It has been nearly 200-years since the BoM was published, in that time Mormons have filled the globe so to speak, and the church is believed to have vast resources. If something was discovered the skeptics and antagonists would simply say it was faked or planted by early mormons or carefully and secretly constructed by the present day wealthy corporate church.

I still hope for amazing discoveries, new insights and even new scripture, but no longer have hopes of winning converts.
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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby Sirocco » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:00 am

tribrac wrote:
Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:39 am
I have long hoped for an amazing archeological discovery validating the Book of Mormon narrative. As a young man I thought it would prove the truthfulness. Now as an older man I suspect it would change nothing. It has been nearly 200-years since the BoM was published, in that time Mormons have filled the globe so to speak, and the church is believed to have vast resources. If something was discovered the skeptics and antagonists would simply say it was faked or planted by early mormons or carefully and secretly constructed by the present day wealthy corporate church.

I still hope for amazing discoveries, new insights and even new scripture, but no longer have hopes of winning converts.
There will always be naysayers, some people believe the world is flat and nothing will change their belief of it.

Ironically for me my renewed interest and I guess strength from "something more" came because of social justice culture, I had thought believing a lot of what they did was what I had to do to, I guess be popular but it was all insanity and I knew it.
But coins and armour and a museum would be a really neat thing to see, I love museums.
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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby brianj » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:57 pm

5tev3 wrote:
Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:54 am
brianj wrote: I am not familiar enough with the language to do what you did, but I would love to see an example in Demotic since I suspect the Egyptian language referenced in the Book of Mormon is Demotic. I suspect it would require a lot more real estate than the Arabic.
I compared the three possible candidates for the original Egyptian writing systems that may have been used here: http://oneclimbs.com/2014/03/30/the-3-c ... an-script/ and there's another post on this topic that may be of interest as well: http://oneclimbs.com/2016/01/14/mosiah- ... scripture/

Nephi was taught in the language of the Egyptians by Lehi, but it is important to note that the Brass Plates were written in Egyptian and not Hebrew: "For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time." (Mosiah 1:4)

I know that Demotic is a popular candidate, but I think that it is more likely that Hieratic was the language on the Brass Plates.

Here is a description of why Demotic was used: “Like hieratic, demotic was a simple form of hieroglyphic used for everyday purposes. It was even faster to write than hieratic. Demotic means ‘popular’, and has the same root as ‘democracy’.

Now here is a description of Hieratic: “Hieratic was a kind of writing based on hieroglyphic but with more flowing lines – like cursive writing compared to printing. ‘Hieratic’ means priestly, because it was used by priests. Many other scribes used it, though, for all sorts of day to day writing. It was much quicker to write than hieroglyphs. It is harder to see pictures in it, though."

We don't know how old the Brass Plates were, they could have been very old and Hieratic was around a lot longer than Demotic. What convinces me is that Demotic was more of a common shorthand whereas Hieratic was used by priests and I think that would have been the choice for scripture vs. what you would use to write a shopping list. Note that Demotic was faster to write, that doesn't necessarily mean that it could contain more information in a denser space, the characters are just simpler (print vs. cursive).

The Paleo-Hebrew, Phoenician, and Egyptian alphabets were almost identical. So I'd imagine that Hieratic and Demotic on a coin would occupy a similar amount of space on a coin as Hebrew. The main problem here is that this coin claims to be from the A.D. era and may have had reformed characters of either Hebrew or Egyptian (since they were both modified) that are unknown to us. But that point is irrelevant since the claim is that the coin had Hebrew on it and was easily translated. So that's another strike against it's authenticity.

Another thing to think about is that the Nephites modified the Hebrew and Egyptian languages. We know they spoke and wrote in Hebrew (they were Israelites) but we don't know how widespread the Egyptian was understood. It seems like only Nephi had a knowledge of that language, and anyone else that could read the plates. It may have been that spiritual records were kept in Egyptian which was known only by the scribes. We're in the realm of speculation now, but those are just some ideas.
Excellent points. Thank you for this post.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby brianj » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:00 pm

tribrac wrote:
Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:39 am
I have long hoped for an amazing archeological discovery validating the Book of Mormon narrative. As a young man I thought it would prove the truthfulness. Now as an older man I suspect it would change nothing. It has been nearly 200-years since the BoM was published, in that time Mormons have filled the globe so to speak, and the church is believed to have vast resources. If something was discovered the skeptics and antagonists would simply say it was faked or planted by early mormons or carefully and secretly constructed by the present day wealthy corporate church.

I still hope for amazing discoveries, new insights and even new scripture, but no longer have hopes of winning converts.
Heavenly Father requires that we exercise faith. If there were undeniable proof of the existence of God or of the truthfulness of the scriptures, we would not be have to exercise faith to know of the truth of these things.

The day will come when the rest of the Book of Mormon is translated, which I understand is primarily or wholly comprised of the revelation received by Jared's brother. This is likely something that is so powerful that when we read it we will no longer be able to question or doubt that which we have exercised faith to pursue, but it will not come to us until our faith is so strong that we won't be compromising our need for faith by receiving those revelations.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby AI2.0 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:52 am

kittycat51 wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:04 am
I have this story in my possession of family history related stuff. Honorable George Peacock (Judge) is my husband's g-g-grandfather. The story was published in the Deseret News December 12, 1860.

"An Old Nephite Coin"

Hon. George Peacock, of Manti, has exhibited in our office an old copper coin, recently found by some explorer or hunter on the Colorado River, on both sides of which are hieroglyphics or characters and Hebrew coin letters. Not being one of the "learned", we submitted it to Professor Phelps, who has given us the following as a literal translation of the characters. On one side, it reads according to the rendition:

"The King, Hagagadonihah, over the kingdom near the sea west, sends to all greeting: one sinine"

On the other side---"In the 95th year of the Kingdom of Christ, 9th year of my reign: Peace and life. Weapon to weapon: Life for life."

The coin is 1765 years old: and is evidently a Nephite Senine or farthing, as mentioned in the fifth chapter of second Nephi, in the Book of Mormon--English edition, page 517. It is about the size of an English farthing. The numerals are plain Arabic figures.


I wonder what ever became of that coin? I don't know if anyone in the Peacock clan still holds it or if it was turned over to the Church. The coin supposedly dated 5 A.D. I know that the Church has "things" that the common member doesn't know about. When my father was a member of the quorum of 70 he was shown several items of which the only particular one he told us about was some pages from the original manuscripts of the Book of Mormon. He mentioned other "items" but would not elaborate.

I find it interesting that it was found on the Colorado River.... :)

I'm quite certain this was a hoax(the claim that this was a 'Nephite coin') or a misunderstanding/embellished tale (it was a piece of metal or maybe a spanish coin) and unfortunately there were a lot of hoaxes perpretrated during the 19th and early twentieth century. Sometimes these hoaxes were done to make money, but other times, it seems they were an attempt to create a connection between the Hebrews and the native inhabitants of the US.
The Nephites didn't use coins, so there are no Nephite coins to find. The term 'coinage' was never used in the book of mormon, but the term was added in 1920 to a header in Alma 11. The mistake of this was corrected in our modern editions.

Here is an interesting article on this;https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Ques ... oins%22%3F
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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby Sirocco » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:40 am

They had cities so surely they had some form of currency.
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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby larsenb » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:29 pm

5tev3 wrote:
Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:05 am
Robin Hood wrote:While that is interesting, we do know the Nephites changed the Hebrew language, and sometimes recorded important stuff (like scripture) in a reformed Egyptian designed to save space and communicate as much information as possible with the fewest possible characters.
I agree with you that this is a very unlikely story, but I think the described inscription is certainly possible.
We know that space on the plates was limited and that they wrote on them in Egyptian to "save space" so to speak, but were the modifications to the languages to further save space or were they made to protect the content of records? To encode them in a way to make them unusable by their enemies or the uninitiated, especially if there was sacred content such as certain rituals, etc. It's hard to say I guess.

The most interesting attempt at understanding how the Nephite's reformed Egyptian may have worked is this translation of the Anthon characters by Jerry Grover: http://bmslr.org/translation-of-the-caractors-document/ Download the free PDF book and give it a read, it is pretty compelling.
Wow, wow, WOW! Thanks for posting that link I heard Jerry Grover give a presentation on the Book of Mormon descriptions of cataclysmic events and how they fit with probable causes and locations, and was very impressed. I have his book, Geology of the Book of Mormon, and think this is as good an analysis that can be done on this topic . . . at least for now.

But his work on the 'Anton script' translation appears to be both monumental and phenomenal. I've downloaded it and will be broadcasting it. What he basically did is start deciphering and parsing out the number-related characters, then went on from there. A case could me made that the choice of the original Nephite script was inspired to target a passage that included many number-related information packets, for the very purpose of allowing a futuristic translation.

Incredible! It reminds me of the quote from Joseph Smith where he said: (paraphrased here): People living in the 'next' century will see 'proofs' of the Book of Mormon starting to surface all over the place.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby 5tev3 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:54 pm

larsenb wrote:But his work on the 'Anton script' translation appears to be both monumental and phenomenal. I've downloaded it and will be broadcasting it. What he basically did is start deciphering and parsing out the number-related characters, then went on from there. A case could me made that the choice of the original Nephite script was inspired to target a passage that included many number-related information packets, for the very purpose of allowing a futuristic translation.
If Grover's translation is even close to being correct it reveals something else that I found interesting. Very little of what that translation contains matches word for word what we find in the Book of Mormon. It looks as if some of the events mentioned are in an extremely abridged state. If that is true, then Joseph Smith was not getting all of the information off of the plates alone. Remember, he didn't translate them like a linguist would, he used the Interpreters and seer stones. He may have never known what those characters even meant which would be even more evidenced by the fact that Grover's translation of the Anthon characters seems to be randomly selected from the text instead of Joseph selecting a particularly profound or inspiring section of the record to use as a sample. It's pretty interesting stuff for sure.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby larsenb » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:04 pm

5tev3 wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:54 pm
. . . .
Grover's translation of the Anthon characters seems to be randomly selected from the text instead of Joseph selecting a particularly profound or inspiring section of the record to use as a sample. . . . .
Did you notice my comment about the high count of number-related information packets? You could make a case that Joseph's selection was inspired to target this type of section, because of the key role deciphering the numbers would play any future attempt to translate the passage.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby 5tev3 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:25 pm

larsenb wrote:Did you notice my comment about the high count of number-related information packets? You could make a case that Joseph's selection was inspired to target this type of section, because of the key role deciphering the numbers would play any future attempt to translate the passage.
Yeah, I can see that as a legitimate premise.

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Re: An Old Nephite Coin

Postby JohnnyL » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:20 pm

JohnnyL wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:42 pm
kittycat51 wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:25 pm
Taken from the Deseret Evening News of Oct. 14, 1916.
...

There is one place in southern Utah which no Indian would cross in the night time for any consideration, nor by daylight if possible to avoid it--a place three or four miles in extent. They say a great battle occurred here, lasting three days, until one could walk for miles upon dead bodies without touching the ground, and that at night they can hear the wailing of the dead. There are several places in southern Utah where large, smooth-faced rocks are covered with inscriptions which the Indians say tell of these great events. I, myself, have seen those inscriptions in several places, but of course their meanings to me were unknown.
Location? =p~
Anything? Anybody? =p~


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